Re: True Leadership

You are speaking of “statesmen” I believe.  True statesmen realize they have a responsibility to the overall society they serve and not to any special group.  Unfortunately, politicians today worldwide must pander to stay elected.

What do you think of modifying the organic US Constitution … to include a fourth branch of government … one that is constant, stationary, not concerned about elections, but has the best interests of society at heart.  Perhaps not hereditary, but elected for life.

A Council of Elders comes to mind.  Or perhaps something akin to a monarch, but without the privileges … to be used as another check-n-balance.

What are your thoughts?

Re: True Leadership

I like the Council of Elders idea, but i guess we'd need something more inclusive….. a group of wise compassionate leaders (regardless of age)….
but to avoid the trappings of the current system perhaps it might be worth considering a group that was independent and did not depend on the traditional politcal system for its “power” but rather grew it organically. Through their work and encounters with others in a context that put them directly in touch with the peple to act as liasons between the people and the governments.

If that relationship with the public was connected to economic unity, a committed collective, then perhaps the power dynamics could be reorganized so as not to create more confrontation but to focus on the creation of alternatives that can interface with the existing/traditional system and still build on a more equitable one.

One that emphasizes the value of social capital and the individual.

Thoughts?

Re: True Leadership

Yvette,

What you described is exactly what Nelson Mandela did …

So this has already begun on a global basis.  But we also need a National Council of Elders … completely separate and apart from government.

Is this what you're suggesting?

I like it.

Re: True Leadership

My thoughts…

Age is something I have pondered on alot. The idea of career politicians really bothers me. I dont think politics is a vocation, it's a privilege. Young people with degrees in political theory or economics just doesn't cut it. You need to have been around the block a couple of times. Two generation minimum; what's that 40 or 50 years old.

Secondly…

Volunteer, i've been mulling this one over for a bit as well, expenses paid but no massive wage. I'm expecting people to have already made it and to be able to sacrifice for the people for a couple of years or so.

I'm really attracted to the 'elder' idea. I'm also really attracted to bringing the old philosophy lecturer out of retirement.

I have concerns about length of time, either very short or judged by economic sustainability of the country or state.

Re: True Leadership

“The idea of career politicians really bothers me … it's a privilege.”

Appears we're in agreement.  Our future world will include our elders in some oversight capacity at the very least.

Good comments Zaadsters!!!

BTW … notice I did change the title to include the feminine, as “knights” refers to males.  Aley insisted.

Re: True Leadership

Tee Hee good change Keith.  Catching up on thread - just popped in to say HI!
Blessings, David

Re: True Leadership

“the good of the State” or “the good of the People” denies humanity to the individuals being affected by the decisions we make.  In this way, politicians justify harming those they wish to control (sorry, govern).
In this system of control or be controlled, there is no room for autonomy, there is no good for every individual person because majority rules (and now not even the majority rules anymore!).  What I want to happen is a self-governed populace, where every single person is allowed the opportunity to make their own decisions and choose what is right for them.  This cannot happen without completely tearing down the existing system of control.
Without autonomy, none of us are free.  I won't settle for anything less than the freedom to choose for myself what is right for me.  a friend of mine said to me recently, “all I want is to decide for myself what to do and what to believe!”  Isn't that what we all want?
I propose it [decide for myself what to do and what to believe!] cannot happen as long as there are governments and politicians who think they should tell me what to do and perhaps more importantly, what not to do, because they don't trust me to know the difference between right and wrong.

Re: True Leadership

FriendStacy, consider it torn down; what are you going to build?

Re: True Leadership

why build anything?  why not just live my life and allow others to live theirs?

Re: True Leadership

Tell us more about anarchy. How do groups of anarchist live together, do they rely on each other at all? Do they need to work together. What happens if nobody wants to work?

Re: True Leadership

I'm with Grant here, Stacy.  The primary purpose of the pod is to create, to come together with ideas and ideals and synergy and cooperation to envision a better world.  No more doom-n-gloom. 

If you could start totally from scratch … what kind of world would you create and why?  See?

Your idea of leadership derives from self only.  Can you elaborate on how this would work in a world with well over 6 billion people?

My feeling is there needs to be a helluva lot more personal autonomy.  But we do require organization.  This is a given.

How would you suggest we organize?

Re: True Leadership

Autonomy does not mean isolation.  It only means that each person decides for themselves what is right and good and what is not.  It also means that we recognize that anything that hurts anyone else also hurts us, and what benefits others also benefits ourselves (this is a natural consequence of autonomy and self-respect, as I have observed in my children).  In this way, people choose for themselves to help others, not because they were told to do so, but because it's the right thing to do.   It is rather difficult to explain this to anyone who doesn't share my anarchist vision.  Some people do get it, and it seems more and more people are on the right track to figuring it all out….

But it can't happen unless and until people can move beyond Aristotle's categories and the need to organize, and the male-dominant society we know which reinvents anything feminine as bad, dark, evil….   there must be a major shift first, and I feel it happening  already.  It's what everyone is so afraid of, this change that affects everything and everybody in our world.  Nothing is going to resemble what we are familiar with anymore, everything will be different.  And once the change happens, we will be free, we will be autonomous, and anarchy won't be so scary anymore.

Re: True Leadership

I can't say that I don't agree with everything you said FS.

Re: True Leadership

I'll tell you why friendstacy, because then you will be able to do nothing to prevent the guy next to you from building a cement plant which blankets your organic garden with dust and keeps your baby from having naps because of the noise and destroys the proprety value of your house you worked so hard to make beautiful… Or the guy who wants to turn his 100 acres into a race track, forcing your town to improve roads and leaving you and your neighbors with exhaust fumes and noise at all hours. I saw incidents like this threaten towns in NH because they refused to implement zoning ordinances until it was (almost) too late.

Without a population capable of self government there can be no self-government. Also, currently there are issues which will require collective efforts with large-scale government funding, if we are going to deal with global warming and resource depletion (which, admittedly, is questionable) we will need to be more than an amorphous group of individuals pursuing their varied self-interests.

Like Jeffersonian democracy, anarchy is essentially an agrarian vision, unlikely to be possible with population levels and technological levels where they are.

Re: True Leadership

“A statesman is a successful politician who is dead.” Thomas B. Reed

Re: True Leadership

With regard to the lifetime term politicians because that is what they must be to be elected, especially to life terms, so to speak, I think that is one of the worst ideas I have heard in a long time. This is specifically what the anti-federalists feared and the framers wanted to avoid when they wrote the constitution. It was bad enough that they trusted the people enough to have the president not elected by popular vote, but this would be an invitation to unremovable tyrrany. As Ben Franklin said “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest.”

Take money out and the political process will be transformed. Or maybe like New Hampshire, where, I believe, the state representatives and senators still get something like $600 or $800 for serving in the legislature.

Re: True Leadership

What you are describing is a return to the Divine Feminine … which is a very, very good thing indeed.  This is long overdue and is necessary to bring balance to several thousand years of patriarchy.  I for one, even being male, wholeheartedly welcome this shift.

My feeling is that you're preaching to the choir here regarding this.  You won't find a more receptive audience for such anywhere. 

If this is all you're saying … then why not use this terminology?  You invite criticism and objection by adhering to a word that has a negative framing.

Re: True Leadership

First off, let me say that this is a great conversation so far. Second, I think Barack Obama is the closest thing we have to a “spiritual politician” because he is so open-minded and not afraid to be idealistic when all other politicians are stuck in muck (ha, that rhymes). He is kind of a lone soldier in the politician realm, however, and is really going to need the support (physical and energy) of like-minded people to overcome the negativity of the politicians around him. 

The Tao does speak a ton about leaders who lead without recognition, and it may seem like we don't have figures like that in our society, but if they lead without needing noticied, how would you know they're there or not? :) I think one of the greatest examples in the United States of a leader like the Tao is referring to is Bill Gates. There are many others, but he is a wondrful example, along with Melinda Gates, of someone who doesn't seek out recognition, though it does come to him. I'm not referring to his doings at Microsoft, though, I'm talking about all the work he does through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. My favorite thing is that they started their own high school in California, an experiment, where they bussed in students from every income level, on their dime, students who hated school, and gave them a beautiful environment to learn in, and they all love it. What's more important is that he has now spent more money on education reformation in this country than the “WASPS” of the Gilded Age (Carnergie, Rockefeller, etc. who are responsible for our communist-modeled public school system that successfully produces worker/consumers), accounting for inflation! He's a silent mover. 

“Anarchist” and “atheist” both have negative connotations, but only to those who are uncomfortable with that part inside themselves. You can easily over-ride those connotations, though, Ayn Rand is a good example of that. After reading Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead, you certainly don't feel threatened by her “atheism” - if anything you feel highly inspired by it, because you understand exactly. Speaking of her, Atlas Shrugged is another example of unseen leaders - hence the name of the book - and how even though we all may not appreciate them daily (or worse, we may slander them because they are “arrogant, selfish rich people”), if they disappeared, the very infrastructure that holds our economy and society together would collapse, and that would be so significant that there would be chaos on all levels, all the way up to government. 

They're there, they are here, we could be those leaders - it's like Mother Theresa said, when she said she'd never go to an anti-war rally, but if you're having a pro-peace rally, call her. We Americans spend quite a bit of attention on the leaders we don't like, the ideals we wish would change, and it keeps us from supporting (or even seeing) the leaders who already represent the same ideals we love. 
Sorry this was so long!!! 

Re: True Leadership

Good for you Katrina!!!!  If I wasn't so secure in my masculinity I could feel ganged up on by you great goddesses.  What I find interesting after this discussion is how closely we are in agreement … but have been hung up on semantics. 

I will concur with you about Obama … but would only add that he's merely a step in the right direction.  There's still a ways to go … or perhaps he's holding back, playing some of the old games.  I would prefer more of a “statesman” … but Obama will do for now as a transition.

I have read of the work the Gates Foundation has done and is very impressive, as you state.  These are models we should be emulating, for sure.

Re: True Leadership

Some long posts are interesting, others are not; this is in the former category. Great post Katrina.

Re: True Leadership

'       …  I' m loveing this thread and am excited about the potential of this pod…

…two brief thoughts..

                  …Obama as “Spiritual Polititian”…
                           …when ol' Dub was running in 2000 it was “God Bless you this” and “God bless you that”…every other sentence gave the impresion that  George was in the front pew…the Christian community was all a ga ga and glassy eyed thinking that they were going to put “God's man” in the White House…after seven years we can see that actions speak louder than words…being in the White House is like trial by fire…even a person with the best of  Intentions will be approached by the Negative Cabal and be told to comply or else…JFK would be the example…  
              …brins me to…

                     …I am for the *Counsel of Elders * idea…this model could be projected into the next millenium…World Counsel of Elders…Galactic Counsel of Elders…
…I'm thinking of the discussion of  Old Souls and New Souls…
…JFK was an old soul in a 36 year old body…and I feel he had the potential to be our greatest president …

                     …we need a candidate that has embodies the Divine Feminine ,has enough back bone to tell the Dark Powers where to get off the bus , and be nimble enough to dodge the bullets…
 

Re: True Leadership

LOL! Will … dodge the bullets is probably good advise. 

I dare say, grand and wonderful Zaadsters, that if Christ Himself descended and walked among us today … someone would probably try to assassinate Him. 

Re: True Leadership

Keith, you said “What do you think of modifying the organic US Constitution … to include a fourth branch of government … one that is constant, stationary, not concerned about elections, but has the best interests of society at heart.  Perhaps not hereditary, but elected for life.”

Sometimes I wonder if the Dalai Lama is a bit like what you suggest. And what's more, it works. I think one of the reasons (besides compassion and governing in the best interest of society) is that he doesn't see himself as better than anyone else. And then of course his governing does not depend on the need to please a lot of different lobbies or organisations, there isn't the pressure of money behind him or on him. Something to consider if you want something similar for the US. But it's only a thought, since I don't live in your country.

The words you wrote about assassinating Christ if he walked the Earth today, this seems to be the lot of many “leaders” or people with a vision (Gandhi, JFK, MLK…) because too many people don't want change, not because they are afraid of change, but because they make a lot of money in the status quo, let's say in something as simple as selling weapons.

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

Well, Chrysalis, I didn't have the Dali Lama in mind as a model for my suggestion, but you may be on to something.  I'm scratching my head a bit on this one.  Will something like this work outside Tibet?  Don't know.  What do others think about this suggestion …

And Chrysalis, this is the second time I've seen you post ”I don't live in the US, but …” and I am certainly not offended by this, not in the least, but would like to make a statement.

The world we're creating … right now … this very second … should never, ever, ever be based on the United States of America.  Banish that.  Toss it out.  It's like poison and should be spit projectile-like from your mouth.  I am a citizen of the US and I think we might have a unanimous agreement here by others that we should consider a different model.

If anything, we should look to the ideals on which this nation was founded.  This is why after this pod was up and going the first thing I did was to post our Founding Documents.  And yes, we can review these and see their truths … but we must improve on them, if such a thing is possible.

We are all … every one of us reading these words … slaves.  Not a one of us is free.  Very sad, but also very true.  Oh, we are told we are free over and over again.  But we are far from it.  We are slaves to our governments, to our banks, to all whom we owe debt, and even to our sacred religious institutions. 

The reason none of us are screaming and shouting for change is … none of us have actually ever tasted freedom … not once …

True freedom, as espoused in the Founding Documents of the United States, began its slow erosion over a century ago.  Today, we have but the illusion of freedom.

So please, refrain from looking to the US for guidance.  We are the least free of all nations.

Re: True Leadership

No worries, Keith. What I actually thought was “Can I throw in my two cents if I'm not living in your country, because you refer to your court system and political system a lot, which I don't know much about…”. A bit silly, I know.

Re: True Leadership

Not at all.  This has me wondering … Do we in the US refer to our system of government too much?  I never considered this.  I will confess that we feel “ours” is the best form of government.  But we all do that.

I would be very interested in getting the ideas of those from other countries.  Would a parliamentary system be superior?  Constitutional monarchy?  Oligarchy?

Please, any thoughts or suggestions anyone?

Re: True Leadership

Well, Keith, in true honesty, I never really considered the USA a democracy. It's a Two-Party-System, but you know better than me how much there is a way of thinking “We have the best system, which we have to spread across the world.” In saying that, how much do religions try the same? How much is your political system a missionary one, and how much are religion and government separated the way they should be? How much money is involved, how much career.

The problem is the attitude. On paper it seems to be a very good idea to offer as many possibilities as you can, so everybody can vote for or choose from what suits them best. But how many times is that decided for personal benefit and not for the greater good of humanity? Which means the general public needs to lose a sense of “I am most important in this, not humanity.” The USA has installed a subsitute for this striving for the greater good of the human race and calls it patriotism. The human race in this case being whoever legally lives in the borders of the country.

Getting back to the Dalai Lama….we have no separation of religion and government which I said we should have. But how is this particular case different? Because the Dalai Lama is not only the political leader of Tibet but also the spiritual leader. And Buddhism is actually a belief system that does emphasise human values like love, peace and kindness. I know christianity does that too…in the bible, not so much in real life… In comparing a leader like George W. Bush (supposedly following his God and Jesus and whatnot) with the Dalai Lama (definitely following compassion, tolerance and Buddha), the differences are obvious.

How about the saying which goes “a society has the leaders it deserves”?

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

This is fascinating!!!  What else do you believe about the US?

Never mind.  I don't think I want to know …

Yes, we do deserve the leader we get.  Unfortunately …

Let me use Zaadz as an example.  One of our favorite mottos is ”Be the change”.  The meaning of this is evident.  If we want to change the world in which we live, it begins with us and we can't merely discuss it … we must “be” that which we desire.

What if Zaadz held ”Be the change” as its motto … but proceeded to force change, dictating what change should mean, or being belligerant about it.  How would that make you feel?

We might reject this ”Be the change” motto and Zaadz itself.

This is the present US. 

Re: True Leadership

Ha, Keith. Well…yes, no more comments about the US. I guess it's the same thing that happened to communism, socialism and other systems. A good idea, but then the human factor kicked in. Hunger for power (Stalin), failing economy (East Germany), hunger for priviliges and money (China)… I still think the original Manifesto by Marx doesn't sound too bad in theory. The US-constitution or declaration of independence…nice in theory, but you can't eliminate the human factor. But wait…how about introducing the human factor and eliminating the Ego factor?

The tricky detail about “Be the change you want to see in the world” is that you have billions of individual changes then, not one movement under a common banner. So we don't really get anywhere with this motto. Unless we all want to see the same kind of change in the world, which is happy, compassionate, kind and peaceful people all over the place. Who would lead them? Which sort of government would such a society need?

Re: True Leadership

I think when “progress” has been made, it has always been societial endeavors to change government, not the other way around.  None of us can sit here and wait for governement to change our lives. We must be impetus for change. I understand this statement is nothing new, but I don't expect leadership from politicians. Granted some politicians have assisted in enacting change (eg. JFK, Lincoln), but they were only in response to prevailing movements in their era.  I think if we are to “change” government the people must assume the responsibility for doing so.  For this to happen fundamental changes must be made to probably all aspects of society (eg education system, corporate accountability, etc.)  The “machine” has become very proficient at skewing our priorities. Essentially there must be someone or movement that makes us all care again.  I feel that we cannot simply live in anarchy hoping that everyone else will leave us alone to our own pursuits.  Society cannot agree upon what is “right” and “wrong” at even a basic level.  While I agree Marx's manifesto is an appealing model, its reputation has become irreparably damaged over the years. I think we must learn to adapt to altering our current system as it is easier to amend than destroy and rebuild.  

In regards to Obama, I have become particularly disheartened by his stance regarding Pakistan in the past weeks.  The idea that anyone could introduce and entire new war to solve a problem of violence is aburdly irresponsible.  Sadly I feel Obama is starting to pander to more conservative democrats, thus diluting his messages. 

Re: True Leadership

This is a link to the actual text/speech Obama gave regarding a “war in Pakistan.” I read it because I felt the same way - I couldn't believe the headlines of “Obama suggests war with pakistan” and I'm very glad I didn't, because it's been taken out of context entirely. Here it is, if you want to take a look:
 
http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/remarks_of_senator_obama_the_w_1.php

For the most part, I agree with what you have to say. I think something similar of our current system: Make the Best of It. You know, like, when life hands you lemons, make lemonade. :) Plus, it goes back to our “silent leaders” discussion - there are forces in the U.S. that are exacting incredible change, such as Zaadz or Bill Gates or PBS even. There are beautiful, wonderful influences all throughout this country, and we have the freedom to have them, to breed them, and to access them.

Here's a hopeful, albeit optimistic, analogy: In the course called Avatar, Harry Palmer has a video that he refers to “trimtabs.” A trimtab is a small, about one-hundred pound rudder on an enormous oil tanker, which has a main rudder that weighs like one hundred tons or so. It'd be as “impossible to steer that enormous rudder, almost as impossible as it is to steer society,” he says, because of the rush of the ocean drafting down the sides of the ship and the ship's size. However, when it needs to be steered, they steer the trimtab into the wake of water cruising down the sides, and that small, hundred-pound ruder helps the large one to move.

Organizations such as Zaadz, Avatar, Integral Institute, naturopathic colleges, non-profits, etc. coupled with our freedom to be involved with whatever we support, act as our trimtabs. As Harry asked, “You weigh at least one-hundred pounds, right?”

Re: True Leadership

Being the change you want to see in the world doesn't mean you are alone in your endeavors - it's quite the opposite. There is a concept - collective consciousness - that applies here. You and I, for example, do not have to be in alignment on every single issue, because it's not the ones we don't have in common that matter; it's the ones we do have in common that affect the outcome of our world. If both of us live compassionate lives (truly), then we are together with the billion others who do so also, and that is more powerful than the people who do not practice compassionate living (if you think I have no basis or proof, you've never “killed them with kindness”).

People who are “being the change” do not need to be led by someone - they are their own authority and will make the best out of any situation they are put into. They also self-govern, so no particular form of government would be any better. To me, being the change means being a creator - a creator of your own rules, life, security, etc. And the main job duty of a creator is to be creative, which means coming up with creative solutions to obstacles, seeing them as an opporunity to “think outside the box,” and be an unlimited thinker and doer. So long as we have people like that in our world, they will be the motor of progress for the rest of the “passengers.”

The Declaration of Independence and US Constitution are beautiful in theory - but we Americans take for granted the fact that they are beautiful in action, also. Those values are engrained in every citizen, whether they're aware of it or not, and we reap the benefits of those documents everyday, aware or not. The only difference is that we can easily see the cracks in the system, because you notice a crack in your wall, you don't take note of the beauty of the wall without cracks every day!
You are correct, the U.S. could stand to eliminate the ego factor, but not by mulling over the things we've done badly, and feeling guilty, but by simply recognizing that every other country is as perfect as our own, and finding those perfections. Countries are like people, and we should apply the same principles with them as we do with people. I think U.S. citizens and our country are so subconsciously grateful for the way we enjoy living here, that we think others around the world should have the same benefit, so we go out and volunteer all over, and we show some pride in our ideals, but where we falter is giving others the benefit of the doubt - knowing that they are fully capable of achieving the same level of success on their own, without our “know-it-all” advice and guidance.

Re: True Leadership

Alejandro,

you write “Society cannot agree upon what is “right” and “wrong” at even a basic level.  While I agree Marx's manifesto is an appealing model, its reputation has become irreparably damaged over the years. I think we must learn to adapt to altering our current system as it is easier to amend than destroy and rebuild. ”

This is a statement I can agree with. And I think this is what we try to do, alone or in a group, when we want to change the world. We underline and emphasise what society or even the entire human race can agree upon.
We all agree that every single human being wants happiness, deserves happiness and needs to be loved, treated with compassion and kindness in a peaceful environment. I think I can say that. The next step would be to remove the obstacles and cultivate the path to this common goal. This is my opinion. How does leadership fit into this picture?
A lot of people don't want to take responsibility. They prefer to follow. May it be politics or religion, they want to be told what to do, by Bush or the bible, doesn't matter.
But now, on our way of discussing this matter….do we distinguish leadership from guidance, setting an example which people follow because they feel encouraged and not forced to?

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

Hmmm?  Okay … Chrysalis, I have a very, very special request of you and one which I think is extremely important and possibly why you have to be a part of this effort.  But first I want to say that my use of Zaadz' ”Be the change” was merely to make a point about a community or nation.  I was not suggesting we adopt this for our purposes here.

You may be the only person here who witnessed first-hand the decline and fall of East Germany.  Would you be so kind as to describe that experience to us from your perspective, with any correlations to our world of today?  What, my friend, can you teach us about reforming government?

Alex, you are right-on.  The de-facto function of modern government is to resist change.  Has anyone noticed that?  So this will have to come from below … i.e., us!

I would like to tell everyone that Janos … the one who suggested this pod … is on-board.  Can't seem to get him hooked up at the moment, but will in time.  He has some very specific ideas and suggestions to help bring focus and intent to these discussions.

Re: True Leadership

Hello everyone and sorry, Keith, for appearing a bit elusive.
I have spent a few hours now just savouring the conversations on the pod. For me it represents the manifestation of a fifteen year old vision (this may sounds a bit dramatic but I am a bit of a thinker but a very poor doer). I could hardly keep a hold on my heart when posts cross linked to other topics, proving that an integral connectivity does exist between all these areas of interest.

On leadership, I have always felt that true leaders are ambitious to help the followers grow into leaders. I understand that this was one of Christ's hopes for his disciples.

Re: True Leadership

The leadership discussion has a very national and even international theme. Is it not true that each of our states has its own constitution. Is there a clue in this?

Re: True Leadership

The clue is that the entire pod is supposed to be international, isn't it. In fact, it's meant to be non-national.

Re: True Leadership

I feel that the clue is in the individual and his or her community. I think the key is to eventually be as local as possible.

Re: True Leadership

GW,

your point being that changing the world is a waste of time? I think I have yet to find out why you are in this pod, even as a moderator. The “eat and just be” opinion in the other thread made me wonder already.

Re: True Leadership

No, the world will only change from the bottom up, not the other way around. I don't expect to change the world in this pod, I simply expect that I will grow a bit more and be able to change my world.

Re: True Leadership

Alright, GW, then we are on different pages about this, which is probably fine. I am here to discuss specific ways of changing the world now. And as I understood it, this is the purpose of this pod anyway. Different expectations. I do expect to change the world with the inspiration of this pod, this is the idea of the 144 knights. This is the idea as I understand it. Discussing distinct ways in the different sections of the pod and putting them into action in order to change the world. This is why I am here. But of course there is no reason to argue and there never was.

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

The Change, it is already happening.  it is up to us, each of us, all of us, to create the change we want to happen.  I for one, am not going to sit quietly by and watch others decide what form the change takes, those people who don't have my best interests at heart.  No.  We can and will create the world we wish our children to inherit, but first we must believe in ourselves, in the power inside each and every one of us.

Re: True Leadership

Is your world so unhappy that it urgently needs changed? And if that's the case, I don't think the action needed is typing, the action needed is being the change you wish to see. If you want so badly to change the world, you are in danger of rejecting all the  beautiful things that are the world as it is. Acceptance of this is important for true growth (in the world and your self), because it means you have a deep trust that all is well. And if you possess that, then your power to help those that need it, is ten-fold to that of a self that believes they have a time-deadline to fix  things before it all goes to hell in a handbag. The Dalai Lama is an example of one who trusts and sees the beauty, even though he's probably been exposed to harder truths and realities and suffering than any of us here, traveling as he does.  

And if I feel irritation from someone's post, it helps me to examine what in me is allowing another to affect me (why am I giving them power), and why it is causing irritation in me is usually an insight into a weakness of my own. Once I can identify that, I'm able to take responsibility for it, own up to it, and recognize the true, good intention (somewhere in them, right?) of the person who wrote it. Whether that helps you or not is not my concern, you seem to be aware of “ego,” so I know if it doesn't help you, you will not feel offended by my passive, objective comments. :)

Re: True Leadership

Katrina,

I don't know who you are refering to, but let's see:

“Is your world so unhappy that it urgently needs changed?”

Yes! And not my world, but our world. Everybody's world. And look around yourself for once, it needs changing.

“Acceptance of this is important for true growth (in the world and your self), because it means you have a deep trust that all is well.”

You are only lucky you are living in a situation that gives you the chance for “true growth”. Of course it is awesome to sit in a great landscape, to receive love and give love, to read books and have the choice between ten kinds of different meals that you can buy prepacked at your local supermarket. And trust me, I know very well what the Dalai Lama is an example for, he is one of my greatest teachers even though we never met in person. I never feel separated from him.

But are you aware how many are not that lucky? Do you actually hear the cries and do you feel the pain of those who are not as lucky as you? Do you feel physically sad because a child in Africa is dying every 3 seconds while you wonder if you should have KFC or McDonald's for lunch? Yes! My world is unhappy and it needs changing urgently, because my world is everybody's world. I do see the beauty around me and how lucky I am. But I can't sit down and be Sleeping Beauty in a Deepak Chopra weekend seminar.

This is NOT a pod to ponder on “All is well.” This is a pod to discuss what will be done, not what can be done, but what WILL be done. Let's stay focused on this matter.

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

Hmmm, well my guess is you picked a bad example, as I am willing to bet that Katrina doesn't eat at KFC or MickeyD's. How about drinking a bottle of Fiji Water while 1/2 of the people in Fiji don't have easy access to safe potable water…

But I take your point. We are an extraordinarily privileged group, so bound in to a system that perpetuates itself via our privileges: we like our nice cars, our plasma TVs (another bad example I bet) our organic raspberries from Chile (a favorite example), and organic bamboo clothing flown in for our pleasure.

Relocalization is a good start. Know where your energy comes from as much as possible, grow your own food as much as possible (learn seed saving!), drive as little as possible, etc.

I have participated in every election since 1968. If you don't exercise your right to do that you let someone else make the decision for you, and they do that enough already. I started taking my boy into the voting booth with me when he was an infant, and he understands that you have to act or someone else will act for you, but not always in your interest. I am not blind to the problems in modern government practice vs political theory, but short of revolution we have to work with what we've got.

Frankly I don't understand how we can use a symbol of medieval monarchial elitism as a model to act through, search for the Holy Grail notwithstanding. Also, I don't understand the “starting from scratch” thing. We can't start from scratch, “starting from scratch” is a masturbatory exercise in intellectualization. We start from where we are, or we might as well… what… I know! just keep typing on zaadz… uh oh… I feel a rant coming on… just hit the button ol' Curmudgeon

Re: True Leadership

Very true, Curmudgeon, and I love your sense of humor you bring to serious subject matter, that's important. :) I do keep a compost, grow some of my own veggies and herbs, I filter my tap water, I recycle, I eat organic as much as possibl -all things that I feel help on a local level, and all things that I feel blessed to be able to do. I know my privileges, I know how “lucky” I am, Chrysallis. Of course I think it's honorable, the passion you are emmitting, with good knowledge and good passion, change is inevitable. I just have one question, objective, mind you, that I think deserves a moment of consideration.
 How much of other people's suffering is dependent upon the helpers' need to help?
 For example, an obvious one, if you became a doctor because you wanted to help people get better, would you want to have no patients, since that would mean everyone is well? An impossible scenario, but move beyond that. If we have such a need to “help” everyone, we may get caught up and move beyond helping them attain neccessities and inevitable rights and try to “help” them where they should and could be helping themselves. The U.S. is infamous for that, as I mentioned in another post. Helping is so complex - it can liberate and uplift people, but it can also victimize and demean people, too.

So lets start with drinking water :) , or let's examine what the root of the issue is, and shouldn't we establish a specific location to start in or something? Right now, we have but a direction - we haven't discussed where the first action is going to take place. Chrysallis, maybe you can begin by identifying what you believe every person could be doing so that they may not offend you by being “lucky,” please?

Re: True Leadership

Which came first the Chrysalis or the Butterfly?

I think a good place to start is understanding your place. How good is the water? Who was on the land before you came? Are you minimizing your footprint? What animals lived there and live there? What plants? Which of the plants growing near you would keep you alive if you had no other food? Which would be medicinal? Etc.

If we have reverence for our place we will be less likely to soil our nest, and less likely therefore to soil someone else's nest.

If we teach our children to respect themselves they will be more likely to respect others.

If we teach our children to be in touch with their emotional lives they will be more likely to be compassionate with others.

If we teach our children to find their still place they will hear themselves as well as others.

I go to many people's homes in the course of a year to help them be safe in their use of their heating systems, hopefully wood, and I do what I can to bring them information to help them make appropriate decisions about energy and alternatives business as usual.

I am lucky enough to live in a semi-rural location where we can grow much of our food, with a life-partner who is a skillful gardener, as well as person of great compassion. We heat with wood including all our domestic hot water, and we are planning to be able to live independent of the grid. Reverence for place is the key. Be as little of a burden to the earth as we can. This is hard if you live in Noth America or Europe, but we have to do it.

Re: True Leadership

Katrina,

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, now and in the future. I often get a bit passionate in my posts. And you know, I'm really glad this pod exists because finally something gets done. Of course it's nice to discuss and contemplate, but that doesn't save lives and it won't make humankind happy as a whole. That was my point, and I'm sorry you got the “bashing”, but I hope you understand it had to be said. There are too many people out there who are exactly like I described (unfortunately appearing like I judged you personally with it). I hope we're good.

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

Oh no, Chrysallis, only I am capable of offending me - by allowing someone's words to affect me. I am in control of my feelings a bit more than to let one comment rattle my cage! ;) Thanks, though, and like I said before, your passion coupled with good knowledge (and knowledge of good, haha) is wonderful.

Re: True Leadership

Katrina and Curmudgeon,

very important points you both are making here. Organic bamboo flown in (think about the petrol…), I love it.

So Katrina, are you suggesting that we would like to see at least a part of the world unwell, because we are notorious helpers, so we would lose our meaning if everybody was healthy? I'm not sure, but if I may speak for myself:
in Buddhism we have the concept of suffering, enlightenment and Bodhisattvas. The essence of it is that you make a vow to help people as long as there is suffering, help taking it off thir shoulders, and when it is achieved, you stop and leave. I like this concept, because it doesn't involve Ego. Helping without expecting anything in return, just out of compassion, requires a kind of detachment which ends up in the ability to let go when the time comes.
Refering to your picture, I think I would be a happy doctor if I had no patients. Given that my bills and survival needs would be covered….but then I need patients to be sick so I can make money off them….more thoughts coming, I better stop. :-)) For now.

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

We're on exactly the same page, there Chrysallis, that's what I'm saying, is that some people are “addicted” (for lack of a better word) or “need” to help others, and that just perpetuates sickness or dependency, where as if we took the approach you speak of, the Buddhist view of guiding people out of their suffering and knowing when to leave them to thier own capabilities, it would foster autonomy among the people who were suffering.

(Just as an aside, I support naturopathic doctors because they don't just focus on healing sickness, they help their patient prevent sickness and live at their highest physical level with the use of natural medicine - eating correctly, getting vitamins and hebs, moderation. They would definitely be happy and still make money doing what they love if they had no sick patients!)

Re: True Leadership

 Do you actually hear the cries and do you feel the pain of those who are not as lucky as you? Do you feel physically sad because a child in Africa is dying every 3 seconds”

As I am a human being, please have some mutual respect for what I am capable of feeling, you know nothing of me. It would be high of you to assume the best in others, instead of believing you're alone in your compassion and wisdom.
What is your plan for fixing that fact? Is it to join Red Cross? Is it to be a grass roots helper? Or do you have a large, comprehensive vision, one in which the money will be raised to change school systems, to build more schools, to end violence and tyranny? Or both? Just curious as to what you do or intend to do.

Re: True Leadership

Katrina,

I hope you accept my apology. But you are leading this to a new direction in my opinion, which is important. You say: “As I am a human being, please have some mutual respect for what I am capable of feeling, you know nothing of me. It would be high of you to assume the best in others, instead of believing you're alone in your compassion and wisdom.”

I do assume the best in others. But here's an additional layer. Would people in general even be prepared to be in touch with their feelings again? Imagine sheets of emotional mould and concrete that exists for people to protect themselves. Which starts with changing the channel when War is on the news, to watch CSI or Law&Order and all its spinoffs….or whatever should move them but it doesn't. If all that concrete and mould is broken, would people be able to hande the drowning flood of emotions?

Should we create a new thread discussing how to lead people to the water of their own feelings and make them drink again? If emotions are buried, compassion is buried too.
Perhaps you would like to join this discussion from your point of view.

Best wishes

Re: True Leadership

I don't know if you read my big, long post at the beginning, but I spoke of “trimtabs” and that concept was brought to me through a course called Avatar, which I'm sure you would find interesting because it does just what you're suggesting - it reveals layers of old beliefs and ideas that you hold on to without being fully aware of them. It does this through a series of simple question-answer exercises, readings, and physical and mental exercises, such as a mindful walk of forgiveness. I've only just begun  the course within the last month or so, and you're right - it is hard for people to come to terms with what holds them back from doing what they wish (such as getting out and volunteering, changing their career, etc). It was hard for me at first to discover within myself so many insecurities and contradicitons, but it is liberating to see myself clearly at last so that I can “deliberately create” helpful, fulfilling beliefs and actions. If you're interested, anyone let me know, and I can connect you with someone who teaches it. It really gets you in touch with your true feelings, aware of your intuition, and in charge of your thoughts. The more people we have that see that clearly, the more compassionate, active people we have to enact substantial change, you know?

Re: True Leadership

These exchanges remind me of a posting in WhiteWolf's pod about the model used for the US Constitution, from the Iroquois Confederacy. 

A small excerpt:

On July 4, 1744, the Onondaga chief Canassatego attended a meeting between the Indians and the British in Lancaster ,Pennsylvania, in which he urged the British to replace their colonial form of government with something more reasonable and workable..  As later reported by Dr. Cadwalder Colden, after listening respectfully to the proceedings for some time Canassatego requested permission to speak.  And he said,

      My friends, I am honored that you have invited me to your gathering of leaders.  I have listened to your words, and I have heard them.  You have been arguing amongst yourselves and have walked the same ground many times over without finding ground upon which you can stand together.

      I have a suggestion which may help you.  We of the Five Nations of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy, by following the same path, have stood together for many seasons, and have become strong and have lived as one people.  The people of the Five Nations of our Confederacy have formed, from equal contributions of each of the Five Nations, one head, one body and one thought, and have thus formed a Great Peace among us.  By following the words of Deganwidah, the Peace Maker, we have mended our differences and become powerful.  If you would only follow our example, you too would become a powerful people.  It is easy to snap in two a single arrow.  With a bundle of arrows, all held tightly together, it is impossible.  -  (Does any of this sound familiar?)  The full post can be found here.

What I found most interesting (from the full reading) is the inclusion of women as decision-makers about who will lead.  This is something our founding fathers left out of the US Constitution.

No, we don't need to re-invent the wheel; we just need to clear the way for it to roll.  And perhaps design an updated version.  It's in a very deep, mud-filled rut right now!

Re: True Leadership

      Qualifications for Senate:

      Iroquois Constitution:                        “The Lords of the Confederacy of the Five Nations shall be mentors of the people for all time.  The thickness of their shins shall be seven spans - which is to say they shall be proof against anger, offensive action and criticism.  Their hearts shall be full of peace and good will and their minds filled with a yearning for the welfare of the people of the Confederacy.  With endless patience they shall carry out their duty and their firmness shall be tempered with a tenderness for their people.  Neither anger nor fury shall find lodgement in their minds and all their words and actions shall be marked by calm deliberation.” (Art. 24)

They have quite higher standards, don't they? It's beautiful, thank you for that post, Traveling Alchemist!

Re: True Leadership

I think Benjamin Franklin was there at that meeting, and was influenced by the Iroquois Confederacy.

Re: True Leadership

Curmudgeon, I think you're onto something - when you speak about helping people be safe in their homes.  It is their responsibility to make sure of that, once they have the info.  It isn't up to you to do the rest for them.  It's important to honor the 'place' where another stands, knowing that they are autonomous, and can make decisions, feel their feelings and not fall apart.  If I impart my knowledge to you, respecting that you have the capability to understand, and make decisions for yourself, I am not in control of the result of your decision.  That's what I think is so frustrating with Iraq.  First of all, the US was arrogant enough to decide that another 'being' was in the way of what it wanted; then to dishonor this other being by disrespecting its boundaries; and then telling this other being what was good for it.  What is true for individuals in honoring boundaries and respecting another's autonomy is also true for collective entities.

In terms of education, if we engage others in small groups, many small groups, to present information, where they can feel safe, and know that their autonomy is respected, they can make their own decision on what is best.  And it may not be what an 'outsider' thinks is best.

Re: True Leadership

Well, TA, I'll do whatever they want to pay me to do… but information is one of my most important “products” I am always amazed at how little information people get from the tradespeople that are supposedly helping them take care of their various systems. I am not there to just run a brush down the chimney, I am there to help those people be safe as well as to be less heavy handed on the earth and maybe to be a little more aware, generally. I have a “poster” I made up in the back window of my van about peak oil, and I just let people ask about it and then use the opening to talk about sustainability, peak oil, organic gardening, whatever they want to talk about. The point is that my customers can't make a good decision without good information, which applies equally about anywhere you want. I give them good info, they make good decisions, and I come back year after year.

My life partner is an organic gardener who employs around 8 to 10 folks, mostly young adults, from April to November in her organic gardening business. She is very concerned about the well being of her “kids” and we have talked about having a “salon” where we can have discussions with them about sustainability, survival skills, peak oil, consciousness, whatever. The people who work for her are like family and she is a surrogate mom to some of them, so we kind of look out for them, and want to prepare them for what we consider is coming down the pike.

Re: True Leadership

I am speechless … I stand amazed and in wonderment.

Mere words cannot possibly describe how in awe I am … of all of you. 

Yes, you did ruffle some feathers, but kissed and made up … got off focus, but brought the thread back.

The ideas!!!!!  The direction!!!!  This pod is but three days old and you have already bounced things around and even come up with a “new” blueprint … taken from an “old” blueprint … which is beautiful.

I honor you all … each of you.

Thank you.  Thank you for honoring one another and for practicing that which we desire to create … right here … now …

Re: True Leadership

To follow up on Curmudgeon's last post, education and modeling the behaviors and attitudes we would like to experience from others (remember, the Golden Rule…) and see in the world, can go a long way to helping others make changes in their lives.  As we know, having ideas crammed down our throats doesn't set well, and others (think globally, or for that matter the 'missionary style' that has imposed so much on generations of folks worldwide) don't like it either.  The changes come from the grass roots, the folks seeing that they are respected and have an answer for their own problems, with a little education…

Some of the things I do to be an example for change is comment whenever I get a chance about my participation in the local community supported agriculture (CSA), being mindful of preparing healthy food for potlucks (i.e., for others), and cooking my food whenever possible in my solar oven.  The one I bought was produced to allay smoke pollution in third world countries, to reduce time used searching for fuels, and provide an inexpensive and easy way to cook food, using recycled materials.  I love to tell folks I prepared my dish in my solar oven!  (I'm currently living in a 55+ RV community where most folks living here in the summer are permanent, and most of them over the age of 70.  So while it may be a challenge for them to implement changes in their life, I present it just the same.)

Re: True Leadership

My views today on true Leadership, from the heart.

When I post, know that it comes from a source of an impetious abstract integrity …. in other-words, I'm considered a bit querky….

I have nothing to say as of yet, other than if you  take me out of my enviornment, say, like in  the “lord of the flies” …. I will hide away & leave you all to it… and that IS a QUOTE !

In the film 'the matrix' I KNOW I am not NEO or TRINITY .. I missed that “romantic potential” 10 years ago…as with most of you..  I feel like the key-maker trapped in some evil french guys dimension…. if you remember the film.

Expression  … I love re-visiting my posts to view how immature, and scatty I was
… Thats humility.

lite ºjlz  jlz.zaadz.com/blog
I just re-vampt my dragon-fly story … to cre8 a smile in everyones minds eye.

Re: True Leadership

Sept 7th — Now December 10th

Last Night I Re-Watched the Matrix … great fun… the fact that we are all Duracell batteries until we unplug … C'me on peoples are you all voting labour, Tori or Zanu I dunno


… IM VOTING that once we have 144 “ACTIVE” Knights & Maidens then this Planet can Change. Till then your life & opinion & action is F U T I L E

its all written on the sands of Dune ..

ºjlz

Re: True Leadership

The fundamental essence of true leadership is service. Leadership in it’s purest form comes from the understanding that everything is one, and that all people are essentially one. (I’d say when the royal “we” was pure, it was a pronoun based out of this understanding.)

It’s not a boon to be a leader, in a sense it’s a sacrifice that paradoxically leads to a higher existance, a higher joy. But the base of this joy even can be found in a simple song:

“love is something that you give it away, give it away, give it away– oh, love is something that you give it away, you end up having more…”

Or another song:

“in the end, the love you make is equal to the love you take.”

The true leader makes his love in order to take more, in order to take that love and send it back out to the community. A leader is he or she that gives and gives only, thoughtlessly, automatically.

As to “Why not just live my life,” that’s a fine way to live, and a true leader’s role is to allow that person to live that way, happily. But if the world is yet in a phase of existance where that person’s continued happiness would be threatened by inaction, then it’s the true leader’s calling in a sense to find action and take it, so that those who prefer to hear and see no evil won’t see or hear evil unintentionally, by ignorinig the reasons causes and realities of that which we, in our misunderstanding, label as evil.

Kind of like being a janitor but one thousand times as complex. : )

Barak Obama is the only qualified cantidate possible of true leadership because he was the only one that was urged to run and thought about it, as far as I know. The rest of them desire leadership and only a fool would understand true leadership and desire it. It’s the wise fool who finds it at his doorstep, like Obama and his presidential bid, and joyously excepts what is in some senses grave responsibility.

The responsibility in essense is the fact that due to the ammount of effect a true leader’s actions can have– any action– a true leader must stay acting out of the grand design and his highest selves, at all times, in all situations, or strive to. Which is why none of us liked that video of Edwards doing his hair– instinctually, we understand that small-scale vanity and true leadership are not compatable. Because, as in the movie Akira, when anyone recieves large amounts of what they percieve to be “power,” they misuse it, because they fail to understand that there is no such thing as power, only service.

Re: True Leadership

Well done Alan… you predicted Barak Obama in Power +- one year prior to the actual event  …

 … I better watch the matrix again … so you can do some more forcasting…lol

Nzira

Re: True Leadership

 To be an Altruist  BEYOND contemporary procecural and propositional knowledge bases …..yet grounded as clay and free as the wind.

Re: True Leadership

Obama is the chosen ONE.

Chosen by Chase, HSBC, Exxon, Haliburton, the Queen and the Pope.  And let's not forget Oprah.

They're no dummies.  They know that the sheeple yearn for a true leader (like Hitler) to admire and follow in tough times like now.

Re: True Leadership

What a great thread! My only source of sadness is that so many participants are “no longer around”.
Christine left some months ago driven by impatience with “just talking”. But she did leave the warning about expecting too much from leaders whom the system is allowing to lead. I assume she made a play on word sounds: “people”–> “sheeple” (from sheep-like people).
I agree, we should not take too much comfort and go to sleep again thinking that at last we have a true leader that is fit to fight our battle.
I agree that the “Obama phenomenon” represents a unique possibility for change, but it is the people wo voted him in rather than those who allowed him to be voted in will need to make the desired changes by clearly demanding them. But we, the people, need to know what are the real changes we need to demand. And that needs some hard digging to the roots of what is rightly called “systemic evil”.
My “digging” convinces me that the benefits of two fundamental monopolies need to be taken from the control of modern-day robber barons.
Those two monopolies are,

Re: True Leadership

Sheeple is well-attested on the net - see
Sheeple
Urban Dictionary: sheeple
xkcd

You make some good points about Obama. The changes that are needed are so huge, though, I don't know if they could be achieved within 4 to 8 years.

Love,

Nicole

Re: True Leadership

Re: True Leadership

i thought moore was being reasonable here….

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/

Re: True Leadership

Actually I did too.  Quite logical.  Quick, decisive.  Of course, there will always be those who want to resist.  

Re: True Leadership

thanks for the link, andrew, I hadn't seen that, very good.

Gross National Happiness

This may not be the correct place to post this, but it's as good a place as any to point out … Gross National Happiness …

But the small Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan has been trying out a different idea.

In 1972, concerned about the problems afflicting other developing countries that focused only on economic growth, Bhutan's newly crowned leader, King Jigme Singye Wangchuck, decided to make his nation's priority not its G.D.P. but its G.N.H., or gross national happiness.

The official government web site is here.  A site promoting Gross International Happiness is here.  The Coronation address of H.M. King Khesar of Bhutan, recently crowned, is here.

Re: Gross National Happiness

i wish canada had a king like that instead of the mean spirited tyrants that we've been stuck with for 20 years!

good to hear that your still givin' 'er on this site keith…..

Re: Gross National Happiness

LOL!  Not sure about “givin' 'er” on this site, but I thank you Andrew.  Do check, though.  If memory serves me, I believe Canada's Head of State is still Queen Elizabeth II who's been on the throne since around 1957 or so.  

Charles is not all that popular, I believe, but has increased in stature very slowly over the yeas following the death of his beloved Princess.  I certainly like some of his ideas, such as insisting on organic farming techniques.

Now, your Prince William … talk about a new paradigm when he should take the throne!!!  Wow!  Janos may be in the best position to offer comment on the British royal family, I believe.  

Under the Commonwealth of Nations system, Queen Elizabeth II is nominally head of over 50 nations.  This doesn't mean the British Crown “rules” these independent nations.  They're merely “linked” as friends, not unlike links we share here on Gaia.  This is actually a great discussion to have on this thread.