Public Education needs to be changed!

The main gist of Public Education, at least ini the US is teaching to the standardized test!

I would like to see more Socratic teaching.

The oldest, and still the most powerful, teaching tactic for fostering

critical thinking is Socratic teaching. In Socratic teaching we focus on

giving students questions, not answers. We model an inquiring, probing mind

by continually probing into the subject with questions. Fortunately, the

abilities we gain by focusing on the elements of reasoning in a disciplined

and self-assessing way, and the logical relationships that result from such

disciplined thought, prepare us for Socratic questioning.

Thankfully, there is a predictable set of relationships that hold for all

subjects and disciplines. This is given in the general logic of reasoning,

since every subject has been developed by those who had:

* shared goals and objectives (which defined the subject focus)

* shared questions and problems (whose solution they pursued)

* shared information and data (which they used as an empirical basis)

* shared modes of interpreting or judging that information

* shared specialized concepts and ideas (which they used to help them

organize their data)

* shared key assumptions (that gave them a basis from which to

collectively begin)

* a shared point of view (which enabled them to pursue common goals from

a common framework)

Each of the elements represents a dimension into which one can delve in

questioning a person. We can question goals and purposes. We can probe into

the nature of the question, problem, or issue that is on the floor. We can

inquire into whether or not we have relevant data and information. We can

consider alternative interpretations of the data and information. We can

analyze key concepts and ideas. We can question assumptions being made. We

can ask students to trace out the implications and consequences of what they

are saying. We can consider alternative points of view. All of these, and

more, are the proper focus of the Socratic questioner.

As a tactic and approach, Socratic questioning is a highly disciplined

process. The Socratic questioner acts as the logical equivalent of the inner

critical voice which the mind develops when it develops critical thinking

abilities. The contributions from the members of the class are like so many

thoughts in the mind. All of the thoughts must be dealt with and they must

be dealt with carefully and fairly. By following up all answers with further

questions, and by selecting questions which advance the discussion, the

Socratic questioner forces the class to think in a disciplined,

intellectually responsible manner, while yet continually aiding the students

by posing facilitating questions.

A Socratic questioner should:

a) keep the discussion focused

b) keep the discussion intellectually responsible

c) stimulate the discussion with probing questions

d) periodically summarize what has and what has not been dealt with and/or

resolved

e) draw as many students as possible into the discussion

                                                                            Thoughts??

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Bravo!!!

Students will actually be able to use their brains, their intuition and insights.  Creativity will flourish.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

What are we made of, but the questions we ask and the things we seek?

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

I think that what you said towards the end completely explains the, ummm, “epidemic” of ADD and ADHD in this country. Have you ever explored Bill and Melinda Gate's Foundation's experimental high school? It's the type of school that has an open environment where students are allowed the freedom to pursue the areas they are most interested in. If you are so inclined, they have a website that tells all about the project and how it has turned out so far. It's very hopeful, and should be supported.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Excellent Aley & Bobby!!!!

I see much overlap here with Art and the comments on Self Development.  Instead of “structure” we need “free-flow” … we need passion.

Wonderful ideas!!!!!!

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Katrina, I think you snuck in there while I was typing my comment.

You are completely correct.  The Spirit needs to be free, not “stuck” in a tiny classroom.  This would explain the “epidemic” of ADD, ADHD.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

My DD will start school in 17 days. She tells me 'Mom I'm not ready to go back to prison yet!'

I love drawing out my dd in discussion. She is such a creative genius! She says she's never allowed to do such things in school. Einstein was so right! We are squelching future creations by our education system!

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Ah yes… the labels of ADD, ADHD and even AUTISM!!!  These children are children of God just like the rest of us.  All they want is to be free to express themselves and the medical profession along with the educators just don't know how to deal with them so they are labeled and given medication to keep them sedated so as not to interrupt the class… unless of course the parents know how to help them with proper nutritional requirements.

The education system is such that we learn by rote and how to put the answers down on a test paper.  It doesn't teach us about life and love and how to become a citizen of the world and how to care for your fellow man.  I don't mean to say that learning how to read and write and do maths is not needed… of course it is… I do agree that there needs to be a change in how and what our children are taught for the benefit of mankind.  The 19th century school system needs to come up to speed with the rest of what is occurring on this planet.

The Global Warming issue is certainly taking a role in our schools here and this will lead to us caring for our environment and learning more about self-sufficiency and little by little the communities will band together and like-minded families will be connected, which in turn will have an impact on the schooling of our children.

Let's make it so… Public Education needs to be changed!

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

My experience with the public education system was that i was bored stiff by it by the time i reached grade 8. I coasted to half way thru grade 12 and quit and went to work, although i did do some college in later years. Back then there was really no good info. on why i felt the way i did about school; so for the most part i went with the self-destructive escapism into drugs and alcohol. Now i think i understand better the reason for my sense of alienation; the system has been designed to kill spirit! although i wasn't brought up in a religious family; i did have a keen spiritual insight at a young age with no good way to interpret what i sensed.
I do think the system from grade one to grade six is okay as far as teaching the 3 r's. But i can't for the life of me understand why children have to sit through so many more years of classes that they are simply not interested in and will never use! This to me is a colossal waste of time, money and human resource. I think by grade 7 there are more then a few children that have specific areas of interest and passion, and i think that the system should encourage the bulk of the remaining years in a more focused way; again, catering to the specific passion of the child. This isn't to say that some electives should not be taken.
I'm a firm believer that any child given the proper environment, with dynamic and progressive teachers who understand any background dysfunction can be taught to excel; that this isn't happening is a tragedy..So, yeah, one of the first things that needs to change is this myopic/dysfunctional education system.

Oh yeah, i don't think it would hurt these kids to learn how to plant and take care of a little local organic garden either……………….Maybe we could  instill in them at a young age a healthy respect for the life and death processes of nature, via the garden……..
Oh i could go on and on on this one, but i'll keep it to one more point! The system is designed to instill a very negative sense of competition at all cost! I think i would be better to instill a healthy sense of co-operation as the main social more………
peace and positive growth, andrew………

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Great posts…now lets move to phase 2…

WHAT can we do?

How can we open schools in the public that offer these tenets and make them the nrom instead of the bogus models that apply now?

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

I don't think it's a case of opening these
Schools as changing the way things are run.
Starting at Government level -the only way to
change rules is to change those that make
them and make some new ones.
So a united campaign for the better of Education
would be more realistic , reach more students and
be reachable.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

http://www.rockpa.org/ I have noted in other discussions where the current public school system came from, which is the Gilded Age's WASP's, such as Rockefeller and Carnegie, who threw a ton of money into designing public education after that of communist schools, in order to best produce a consumer/production-line type worker. They did this to ensure the U.S. a strong economy, with loyal-to-the-country citizens (i.e. team sports, teacher's being kids' authority, not equal). However, the Rockalfeller website above is their philanthropy work, and they do donate toward education reformation, so it's important to sign up and support their efforts when they're headed in the right direction.

Also, my favorite, is:
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/UnitedStates/Education/

Bill and Melinda Gates, along with Warren Buffett, play an ENORMOUS role in reshaping public education. They support charter schools whose models are working, they have their own “test” high school that is producing HAPPY, successful students, they have collectively put more money into education than all the WASPs (accounting for inflation) of the gilded age, and they need people's support, so go sign up! Receive newsletters, be aware of legislature being voted on so you can contact and support our representatives who are going in the right direction!! Contact me if you have other ways to help! 

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/WorkingWithUs/GettingInvolved/

Here's a more direct link for the gatesfoundation, so you don't have to “waste” any time wondering around the site to find out how you can help!

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

I love this thread, if I can vote to change the Public Education I will throw a party to celebrate.

We have a great son, full of love and intelligent, the school he's going to put him to Autism category just because he has speech delay. It was so frightening to go through the process to admit him to the public school system. Meeting after meeting, interview after interview. Not to mention we have to fill out ton of forms, they go from category A through Z. I've heard 100 of abbreviations ADD, DD, L some thing something, at first I try to ask but then I have to give up. Reviewing his test and category even more frighten. We have to go through page after page to put small check marks on every line. The forms are designed so logical as if my son is a robot, kindda like the checklist for a final product. When I ask them why Autism, my son doesn't look autistic. They say there are many kind of autism, I ask how many, they reply a few hundreds. Sound like they throw all the unknown symptom into these categories.

So, I would love so much to change this School System. If anyone can do it, you are my savior. Great discussion guys.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Aley and everyone else,

thanks for all the wonderful ideas. Now here's my point of view. The public school system has to be alright for the “middle layer” of kids, right? Top and bottom of the range aren't really considered, it just needs to be good enough for MOST kids, not all of them.
If you change the system into “being good for everyone”, you need the right teachers, the right size of classes, the right mixture of intelligence…unless you want separate schools for separate mental capacities. But then we don't want separation based on how smart you are.

I can only tell you what worked for me. For some reason I felt good about teaching myself. As much as school couldn't teach me, because intuitively I knew I would never ever need things like trigonometry again, I learned to teach myself. School might be able to play an essential part in this. When kids have a natural interest in learning (remember the “reading encyclopedias at the age of 5” discussion about Old Souls?), they can do that. So schools teach the basics like reading, calculating, sports, arts, whatever. But then they could also become a place to meet and discuss. Maybe the class system of “teacher speaks, pupils listen, have a test eventually” could be changed into free discussion classes….like an hour or two a day. In those classes you could exchange information, points of view, everything you learned on your own (because you wanted to, encouraged by the school system) and of course the respect for others in a discussion or debate.

With this sort of system we might…as a side-effect…also be able to remove judgement and bullying from schools, because this is where a lot of ideas and spirits are broken. Not only the school and education system is designed to promote average mediocrity, but also as a kid among other kids it is not very popular to be different. I think this is an essential part of the education system, a strong attitude of “it is perfectly fine to be different, there is a niche in life for everyone”.

Best wishes

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Hello everyone, here are some more thoughts on this subject. The reason i joined zaadz is because as much as the anarchist in me would love to tear the whole system down and start again from scratch; i can easily see how naive and impractical that position is. Capitalism needs to evolve into something better and that's why i'm here. The same goes for the money system; the bankers might be persuaded with good argument into bringing back spiritual principles. it's the same with education, yes the Waldorf schools help. Private schools help. Religious schools may help as long as they teach respect for the differing faiths. Perhaps home schooling.
It does seem to be a matter of skewered priorities though. There seems to be tons of money to fund death and hate and war, but not enough to fund a healthy public education system. There has to be a way to get the people running the public system to see the wisdom in being dynamic and progressive. Having said that, i don't want to lay the whole responsibility of children's ed. on the school system. Good parenting skills should also be taught to all new mothers and fathers. A nine month course running in tandem with the pregnancy would not be a bad idea. I can imagine how frustrating it most be for good teachers to have their good intentions thwarted by dysfunctional parenting at home.
And yes, Chrysalis, some of the fond memories i have from school were from those teachers who actually encouraged a dialog within the class; exchanging ideas, and getting the students to actually think for themselves instead of non-stop memorization a banal facts……
Have a good day, Andrew

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

andrew -you sure have touched on a good topic
here - the need for parenting courses!
While some parents know and what and bother
to teach their children -their
are other's that do not teach their children anything -
for whatever reason the case may be.
These are the children that have the greatest trouble
at School -find it hard to learn and just catch up
to those that at least know their names and can write
them and their alphabet !
So parenting classes are a good source to begin change
and also instill the parent to be supportive of and follow
and monitor their child's progress throughout all their
Schooling years.
Parents too are responsible for educating their children
and we cannot put all the blame on either the Teacher's
or the Education System -although their should , of course
be more money available >

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

parenting courses should be required for parents!!! YAY..the other thing I see that would help is unschooling..allowing the child, through supervision to start learning a trade or a way of inquiry that fits the interests of the child. Homeschooling is great but not all parents can do it. I also know there are some parents who need more education themselves and could  not do it even if they did not have to work full time.

Taking responsibility for ones childrens education is essential, as are trying to drop the funding requirement depending on test scores.

Re: Public Education "Are We Failing Our Geniuses?" article

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1653653,00.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3244598

The top article states two astonishing things:
~5% of the U.S.'s most “gifted” students (IQ of 145 and above) drop out of highschool early.
~5% of the lowest scoring students (outside of mental retardation) drop out of high school early.

Nearly $8 billion dollars a year is spent on school programs for the mentally-challenged.
This is about 10 times more than is possibly spent on gifted children (possibly' because many schools do not keep track of that type of spending).

This hit very close to home for me, since I am in that 5% that left high school early because I was being slowed down and bored ( I was fortunate to receive my diploma at the local comunity college, but I know that is rare in this country, to get anything more than a GED from a community college.)

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

http://www.autodidactic.com/profiles/profiles.htm

This is an amazing list of people who were, for the most part, “self-taught,” autodidactics. Among them you'll find presidents, inventors, tons of author and social commentators, CEO's, etc. Bill Gates, Rockafeller, Carnegie, the list is extensive.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

An understatement !
Lateral behaviour overides educated 'patterns' 







.. we're in a new world ..

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

The change needed is so simple that everybody, it seems, passes by without seeing it. Education should be what the word means, “bring out” what the child has in hir.

Education ministers would do well to become familiar with the Socratic Method so that they would know what reforms to press for in educ-ation.

Our youngest grandson has displayed remarkable fascination with numbers and letters before he was one year old (coming up to two now). When he first saw a word in italics among regular text, he started laughing at it (just to avoid misunderstanding, he does not read yet).

I think with sadness about what the (mis)education system is going to do with his mind.

Re: Banking Concept of Education to Socratic/Problem posing?

While ruminating on everyone's comments, and I remembered some ideas from an excerpt from a manifesto on education called Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by Paulo Freire. His basic assertion is that what we practice in most countries is a form of education called the banking ”concept of education,” where students are treated as passive vessels into which information can be poured into. Education is considered literally as a form of investment, as Katrina pointed out “to best produce a consumer/line type worker”–In this light, standardized testing can be interpreted as a means to sift and sort students into various levels of occupations. Sad indeed. The alternative that Freire posed was something not unlike the socratic method of problem posing dialogue that Alley proposed–but radically different in that the absolute binary between teacher and student is blurred– a deeper reciprocity is formed between the two as teacher learns from student, and student informs teacher of their circumstances and needs.

 —I don't know how well this works in praxis, but it sounds like an interesting variant of the socratic method…

I am not very familiar with education, but I did find an interesting streaming video manifesto on what kind of shift in education is needed to meet the dramatic demographic changes and needs of this century. I think it touches upon many of the issues discussed, the need to foster creativity, the problematic hierarchy in categories of studies, ADD…etc

Here it is………………………………………………………………………………….
 

TED talk:  “Do School's Kill Creativity?”

Sir Ken Robinson's humorous case for fostering an education system that nurtures creativity.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/66

“Why don't we get the best out of people? Sir Ken Robinson argues that it's because we've been educated to become good workers, rather than creative thinkers. Students with restless minds and bodies – far from being cultivated for their energy and curiosity – are ignored or even stigmatized, with terrible consequences. “We are educating people out of their creativity,” Robinson says. It's a message with deep resonance. Robinson's TEDTalk has been distributed widely around the Web since its release in June 2006. The most popular words framing blog posts on his talk? “Everyone should watch this.”

A visionary cultural leader, Sir Ken led the British government's 1998 advisory committee on creative and cultural education, a massive inquiry into the significance of creativity in the educational system and the economy, and was knighted in 2003 for his achievements.”

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

I was staying away from posting, because I felt I had too much to say about this!

My perspective is that of an Indian who studied in “convent schools” [I think they're called parochial schools in the U.S.] while my husband is from a private school. There isn't public schooling as in the U.S. where taxes pay for going to school.

So, that in itself is s biggie. Public schooling is probably the most efficient way to get each child to be literate. Beyond that, each member of my family is individualistic, and my son is a very bright non-academic kid, who chose to go to a large public school so there would not be such a focus on him as in a private school! He has loved the freedom that large numbers afford -though coming from India, a class of 25 does NOT seem large!

This is where parenting comes in; and why I came into the thread: to share and learn. Parents and school together can change the way your child experiences school. They do not HAVE to compete with others, if parents can stay focused on their individual goals.  There are ways, in which we can be very involved in the child's life, schooling, interacting with teachers and administrators, to ensure the best out of a difficult time. This is from a mom whose kid told her after a week in kindergarten-“How long do I have to keep doing this?” And who thinks I have other things to show my child about life, than being a teacher's assistant with “homework”.

I always remember what happens to kids in countries that don't have public schooling - they work mini-adult jobs; and feel that to change something, it is good to go back, as we are doing here, to see why something came into being.

So- what needs to be changed about public schooling? Perhaps parents need to depend less on it than they do, and teach kids the life skills they need to learn? Perhaps parents need to push for another way of their kids getting into college than standardized testing and competitive standards?

The school does not live in a vacuum; and as has been said- Sandy , society needs to change so that schooling can.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Meenakshi, I agree its all about “lifeskills!” and finding an alternative to stantdardized exams.

-the worse case scenario would be Japan, where your station depends on how well you do academically. It is a meritocracy of sorts where those who graduate from ivy league equivalents in Japan get first pick of the corporations they want to join…
Life as a student in Japan is cramming for one exam after another. from Kindergarden, to elementary, to middleschool, to highschool, to university, and then corporations–yes even companies have standard aptitude exams. Something is definitely wrong.

-the product is a society that is highly organized and highly efficient, but also inflexible where dissidents are marginalized.
-its a society of workers and consumers, a society of conformists whose only notion of freedom is the choice to consume.

whats even more sickening is pervasive phenomenon of 'latch-key' children who return to an empty home afterschoo because both parents work. A friend who is an aspiring teacher told me that parents expect too much out of teachers, but the parents themselves do not teach their children principles.

—Sandy said that the government must bear the weight of changing the system.
Sadly, in Japan, its the corporations that take over this niche, selling educational services to augment the weaknesses of  government subsidized education. Most of the time they are “Kaplan”esque institutions that help you get better test scores.
There are more innovative ones as well though.

Corporations also provide daycare for working mothers now as the workforce is shrinking.
Perhaps places in the U.S. have adopted this.

But I can't bear the thought of children having Microsoft brand of education 'integrated' into their head and kids graduating from Coke High….

—Do you all think corporate sponsorship of education has its merits though? I think it may.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

Do you all think corporate sponsorship of education has its merits though? I think it may.

Re: Public Education needs to be changed!

: ) 
no Janos, not at all. I am very happy and relieved that everyone is concerned about such issues, because we all have a stake in it– and needless to say– they are exceptionally high.

My comment on corporate subsidized education comes from my love-hate relationship with my country of origin. As I was looking for a job in Japan this past spring, I could not help, but marvel at the grotesque reality of Japanese corporate society– a cross between Japanese style labour management and American competitiveness– which appears to subsume everything in life. Scary indeed! In its pursuit of efficienty and profit maximization it has also become very intrusive. 

Yes, I love your frog metaphor too, and I do see your point. Indeed, this phenomena is a 'trojan horse' of sorts; it is akin to the viral computer programs that enter the system by posing as harmless data packages.

And as Janos said, the raison detre of corporations is to maximize profit, and ultimately use whatever institutions under its control for this purpose.

Fraudster? or Symbiote?

–whether it is it possible to have a more mutual relationship a symbiosis–is an issue I think I will take over to the thread Meenakshi has opened for us and to which Janos links.