Spirituality VS Religiosity

Does religion destroy spiritual autonomy?

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

I don't think that it is religion, per se, that destroys spiritual autonomy, so much as the people who lead and/or create religions for the wrong reasons.

Most religions spring up around certain central personages, or sometimes two or three personages who have been blended into a prime personage, that have demonstrated to some degree or other that they possess a larger piece of the puzzle of life than most of the other persons of their era's.  By the time the religion is created around certain words, phrases, and acts these people may have done (or been perceived or reported to have done, as in the case of Christianity), the people upon whom the religion has been founded are generally dead and gone, and most often have been untimely dispatched, also then making them martyrs to the cause.

When a certain faith-based cause begins to flourish, there are always those who are ready to make a profit (not to be confused with a “prophet”, although the two may actually appear as one, which isn't necessarily a divine miracle so much as a matter of slight of hand), and who will then exploit the prime teachings of the personage upon whom the spiritual movement has been created, and thus create a “religion”.

These so-called propheteers/profiteers then begin postulating that if that originating central personage were present, they would require certain things to happen.  Women should wear veils, cover their bodies from head to foot.  Men should only shave occasionally, so that they retain their virility.  Things like that.  But another thing they will do, is institute a form of guilting that requires recompense.  After all, how do you keep a religion functioning if you are not feeding the leader - right?  Then the franchising out of the religion begins, more leaders are required, larger followings are required, and eventually, armies are created to ensure that there is no interference with the progress of the the now very powerful religious leaders, and their continual need to feed the larger religion machine.

So while religion, defined as the collection of teachings of one (or several) very spiritual persons does not destroy those teachings, the spiritual automony - the impetus for why the teachings were given – can become convoluted enough that it little resembles the initial intent of the teachings, once it becomes, for all intents, a business.  The prime examples of this on the planet today are the Roman Catholic Church and the Muslim faith, followed closely by all of the many splinter groups of Christianity, the first of which were created primarily by Henry VIII of England, because he wanted to divorce his wife.  Now there's a real fine reason to create a new religion!

So the nugget or core of what was spiritual may remain - it just may be very hard to find under the manure that gets piled on it after a while.

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Such clarity Gemstar. Great summary.

When religion/philosophy becomes political, it becomes painful and worthless. When Taoism became the state philosophy/religion it became a ridiculous set of beliefs and practices. When Christianity was used by the Romans as a political tool, it started a murderous unenlightened rampage across the world.

Arguing that a person cannot have religion because it causes war, although tempting, would be wrong. But as soon as religion takes on political forms it will be dangerous again, is there a way to approach this issue?

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“But as soon as religion takes on political forms it will be dangerous again, is there a way to approach this issue?”

There is a way.  The instrument of prevention is called time, which tends to devour all crystalized forms in its path, eventually.  As spirituality becomes fornicated into religiosity, it is like the seed of a pearl.  The creature that harbours the pearl doesn't recognize its beauty.  But eventually the beauty of the pearl must come forth, and the shell surrounding it is cast aside.

What we are now experiencing in the world today is time being speeded up, so that all of those old crystalized forms of religion are cracking wide open.  Many religions are also self-destructing from within - those that lost the pearl nugget before it developed, and therefore the purpose for its being in the first place.  And as I gave on the other related thread to this (Esoterics - Definition), when the student is ready the teacher appears.

It isn't a matter of pushing things along, but rather a matter of being prepared oneself for the next step.  That usually involves moving out of ones comfort zone.  So the best way to prepare the masses for such an event is to gradually get them prepared to move out of their comfort zones.  Then you will see the time when spirituality shines so brightly from within each of those who have moved forward, that they recognize the many lights as being one, and the religion then has to move forward, by the participants own impetus, into its next higher form, which is esoterically referred to as The Path of Return, or The Path of Initiations.

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I'm really enjoying reading your posts Gemstar.

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I thank you for that, GW, but I must humbly confess, I am mostly the instrument of transcription, rather than origination, of the thoughts under my name on this and the other thread.  As I emailed to Keith earlier, I haven't slept in almost 24 hours, and at this level of reduced resistance, my “guides” have been having a field-day cannon-balling the ideas and most of the language used straight through my trance-fogged head.  “We” are having a delightful dance in light presently.

Cheers!

Gem :-)

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…you go girl !…

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My apologies to Gemstar, I have to answer the original question before I read your replies…

Does religion destroy spiritual autonomy?

uh, yeah, isn't that the whole point of religion?  There is no room for spiritual autonomy with any organized religion because spirituality is SUBJECTIVE!  Religion objectifies belief, points to an external God, complete with rules and laws we are to obey, or else.  You are not allowed autonomy, the chance to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong, the religion has the answers for you already, no need to bother thinking about any of that stuff for yourself.


edit, after reading the replies, I do most heartily agree with what you are saying, I just say things in a different way being the philosopher that I am.  :-)

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And……….

To keep the energy (Don't worry I hate the vernacular too) going we need to end dissenting posts with something affirmative, an option or cure. Unless you end with a question of course. Otherwise the energy will start splaying outwards instead of inwards and upwards. It's easier to build a tower of wisdom if we're at least all looking towards the sky.

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Amen, hallejuah and so it is!

So many wars are created in the name of religion. Time tested and globally proven.

So, it is not the religions but the leaders? And interpretations and dogmas?

If religgion is big business and also a way to control the masses in some way, then how do we shift the paradigm in order to see effective changes on a global scale?

Sending missionaries for instance into poor villages to convert citizens utilizing fear tactics had been a way of insuring sheepish behavior in the past.

What kind of future presence can spirituality, sans religiosity be affected?

And if it is the people, not the religions themselves that cause the issues, what can be done to eradicate these “chosen ones” to lead those who appear to need to be followers and not thinkers in their own right?

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Yup, it has been beaten flogged and masticated, but it has not been solved yet and the intention here is to find a way to shift an old nonworkable paradigm into a new workable one by integrating all parts.

Focus= positive, not defeatist…

And yup, already been to hell(religious dogmas) and working my way back up!!!

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Okay…so maybe we need to create a new “Religion” one that unifies us all, brings us all back to oneness…

The Religion of Love…can we all agree on that?
Or perhaps we could all agree that the Sun is God, and that is that, LOL…there's no disputes there…everyone on earth can see our new God, the Sun…let's all start over…forget all the crap about who channeled God first, who had the first messenger and incarnation of God…pshaw! We all are! We each have a Divine Spark of our God, the Sun…

A long time ago, this is what we believed, it was indisputable, but the quest for personal power over people, religion and worship of PEOPLE was created, putting people as a mediator between you and God…there is no mediator between you and the Sun! You wouldn't doubt that God loves you ;-) and is here with you every day ;-) The Sun IS the Center of our Universe…this is the only thing we should ever worship as higher than ourselves…and work outward from there…No one can separate you from the Light of God ;-)

LOL, forgive me for babbling, did I make sense to you guys? We can't fight what is already in place…we need to create something new, an alternative to the way things already are…create a fork in the road…a choice ;-)

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Okay…so maybe we need to create a new “Religion” one that unifies us all, brings us all back to oneness


I totally agree. WE ARE ALL GOD. We are all one and we don't need religion or spirituallity. We just need to remember our essential unity.

i wrote something about that' The Book of Light: The Nature of God, the Structure of Consciousness, and the Universe Within You.”

my modest attempt to formalize and express the essential unity and divinity within us all

http://www.avatarpublication.com/ebooks/thebookoflight.pdf

In La'kech (or La'hesh) as the Mayans said.

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I honestly think that “religion” is what happens when Ego overcomes spirituality.  Religion is about power.  Spirituality is about surrender.

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Oh Kat I like this one!

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Yeah that was good Mamakat.

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We are definitely entering a time when the individual is empowered, as opposed to a group.  As such, then the individual can choose to worship the sun … or not.  I, for one, do not choose to do this, but if someone else does, this is their choice.

Thing is, we don't have to agree.  Part of the new paradigm is tolerance and acceptance.  I just wrote about the Divine Feminine being born now replacing our stifling patriarchal systems.  Would a mother, any mother, deny her children?  Absolutely not!!!  A mother would give her own life to protect and nurture her offspring.  This is what we're already experiencing in our world … and will only increase with time.

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In Singapore where I live
four great religions live in tight lipped animosity
Much side swerving and PC rewording had been done
to sugar coat the pill of divine vengeance inherent in them all

Will we go to a hell if we dont accept religion A or B? (or C or D?)
We who have been to hell
are not afraid of it.

When religion gets upgraded to “life-paths” - and we can really see when it does -
not in giving it a new name
new label for old wine - no good -

that is when I can rejoin my brothers and sisters
that is when they wil let me join in

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As Bill Wilson discovered in 30’s, sprituality is not a possibliity outside of the group conscience. For Bill and Doctor Bob, this wasn’t some cutsy spirituality that made them feel good about themselves and the world and that they used to ratioanlize their own behavior, it was a matter of life and death. Alone, dead. In the group, maybe dead, but a chance to live. Today, Alcoholics Anonymous is the most successful treatment availalbe for chemical dependency. There are other competing forums, but none can claim the sheer mass numbers that AA can claim. Spirituality also has to have efficacy or it is not spirituality. If it doesn’t serve the good of humanity, if it doesn’t bring me into a loving fellowship with my brother or sister, then it’s not spiritual.

Now, Merriam Webster defines religion in a number of ways, none of which I have heard yet in this post. One of the ways is “a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs and practices. Ladies and gentleman, thats AA. And folks, it’s also Zaadz. This postmodern gratification of the self (as I see a lot of this - for a definition of postmodern, see Stanley Grenz or Foucalt) meets the definition of a religion, and I hear as much religious zeal in these threads as I do at any evangelical meeting or revival. It’s just zeal directed in a different direction.

The minute this thread was created, you’all, me included since I am in this group, became a religious group. The beliefs in God may vary,but what nobody understands is that every one of the presuppositions that have been behind the voice of a push for spirituality lay firmly in a judeo-christian white european weltashung (worldview for you philosophers who know German)

And atheistic politics, those in the absence of God, have been responsible for millions of deaths in war (Hitler and national socialism for one) as have worship of pagan God’s like the Sun (Diocletian in Rome, Alexander in Greece). I wouldn’t say religion combined with politics causes war, I would say that man’s utter depravity causes war.

The religion of progress replaced the religion of Christianity during the enlightenment. Since that time we have experienced too many wars to count, including the US civil war, which by the way, during that time, organized religion was the fundamental emphasis behind the abolition of slavery.

Burkhardt, a German philosopher of history, only saw hope for this world if it returned to the values inherent in the early church, which were faith, hope, love and charity. I have no reason to believe that a pagan spirituality (and I don’t mean pagan as a derrogatory comment, I mean it to refer to things like annimistic beliefs found in Hatai, polytheistic systems like the Greeks and Romans from 300BC to 309AD) is going to be any better than any other religious system.

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There is something a little bit disturbing and ironic about this post Pastor Mike.

I would love to hear something a little bit less labelling than this from you Pastor Mike if you've got the time.

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           …Spirituality is each person's connection with Source…this is a Birthright…

                       …religion is man's attempt to capitolise on the inherent power of  spirituality…


…the instant a religion is organised , is the moment it becomes corrupt…


          …the world doesn't need any more religions…

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Will, with all due respect and kindness to you, the purpose of this pod is to build up, to create.  That's why we're here.  I feel you would agree that “beliefs” aren't an issue here.  We honor all views.

The issue would probably be about “organization”.  Is this not true?  To advocate non-organization is anti-human nature.  We tend to do this as a species.  Perhaps you're referring to strict hierarchal structure and rigid teachings.

That being said, Pastor Mike hit the nail on the head and offered an excellent example of organizational structure to emulate … that of AA.  Yes, there are very basic criteria that are common to each group.  But beyond that … the degree of tolerance and acceptance is unparalleled.

And I would echo another idea … whether we like it or not … we are a “group” and in the eyes of some would be considered a “religious body”.  I've seen the “Nation of Zaadz” before.  Don't think I've yet seen the “Religion of Zaadz”, but won't reject it.  Some may protest, but so be it.  Perhaps this is to be our model on which to build a better society.

Thank you Michael for this.

Any other thoughts?

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Does religion destroy spiritual autonomy?

For me the subject of the topic might as well be “Individual vs. Society”. Spirituality seems to be a highly personal matter, spirituality involves a lot of “going inwards” and looking into yourself. Religion is more of a group experience, going to church or chants, workshops, meetings, community work. Some positive, some negative.
But can it ever be avoided? Spiritual autonomy would mean that somebody collects answers from all kinds of sources as long as they suit this person. This sounds like a good thing. But human beings are also social animals. They need the group to a certain extent, and a lot of people feel better about themselves in a group. Do they choose to destroy their autonomy then? They wouldn't exactly be forced, right? Does religion destroy spiritual autonomy or do people destroy it? Of course it is everyone's own choice to be part of organised religion, but some can't really make the decision because of what everyone else might think if they abandoned church, family, town…

Is it spiritual autonomy when the religious (read “person needing the group of similar-minded people”) person goes home, prays, reads the bible or thora or quran or sutras and communicates with a higher being or the inner self?….This would be a very personal experience again, a spiritual experience. So I don't think religion can destroy spiritual autonomy. It can make a person choose a particular path and stay there, no matter what (whereas an entirely spiritual person does not follow a particular path, I guess), which might remove some autonomy.

But I don't see the “vs.” between spirituality and religion here. In fact I sometimes wonder who is generally happier? A searching, entirely spiritual person, touching and abandoning many different belief systems, or a religious person with a path set in stone. The solution seems to be connecting both ways. Sharing religion with each other and leaving space for the individual spiritual experience under the umbrella of a belief system.

I think it is often misunderstood that religion is the belief system. But I think a belief system, a “truth” or the offer of it manifests in either religion or spirituality, depending on a person being in a group or alone, practicing this belief system. Two sides of the same coin.

Either way, I would always recommend following one path when it feels right, not pick and choose from many different ones without ever getting really into any.

Best wishes

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Very well stated Chrysalis!!!

This is the whole point of the pod … to build … to gather together … to brainstorm … to find a mutually beneficial way forward.

This virtual world we're creating and editing will one day become manifest if the ideas and ideals we put forth sprout, take hold and grow.  We could argue and debate our differences forever!!! 

The purpose here is to unite … to seek commonality.  So putting forth the rationale demonstrating there is no conflict is … perfect.

THANK YOU!!!!

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It seems to me that what you are speaking of, Keith, is 'community'.  The original gatherings of 'believers' was a community.  AA and other 12-step programs are 'communities'.  They have common denominators in how they organize (or don't) and develop 'norms' for their groups.  I have participated in many different kinds of communities, and they all incorporate respect for differences, not trying to fix another, not trying to convert another.  In the Foundation for Community Encouragement workshops (FCE was founded by Dr. M. Scott Peck of The Road Less Traveled fame) folks come to learn about community in an experiential way.  And they are surprised at what needs to transpire before they can say they have 'achieved' community.

For one thing they have to surrender their agendas; they find that their attitudes are incorrect about others, and they have to surrender their judgments.  In the surrendering of all that separates them, there is a 'space' formed, a 'vessel' where Spirit is present and palpable. .  And in that moment they are in community.  And that is where they can begin to understand where they want to be active in the world.

In beginning this pod, and these conversations, the members of the pod are at the beginning of building community.  All the dialogue is necessary and preliminary to discovering community.  There are several phases, and this is phase ONE.

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Ah!  Sis!

Enlighten us more … This is precisely what we're doing … creating community.

See?  More semantics. 

Where do we need to go after Phase One?

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…where do we go after Phase One…

      …All go out for pizza and chill out…relax and just Be…

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Yes Will, and be so laid back we all fall over. Sometimes “just be” and “go with the flow” doesn't work, does it. But seriously, maybe you can tell me how this point of view creates positive change, maybe I'm totally wrong. Maybe we can indeed make the world a better place if we do go, have a pizza and just be.

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…I'l explain , Chrysalis…

…I am in awe at how succesful this pod has been in2 days…how much energy and many ideas were brought out …sometimes bursts of activity and movement are naturally followed by rest and settleing of ideas …then the next Phase will spring forth with renewed vigor…these are natural cycles that I respect…

  …as for falling over…I'll be drinking the spring water not the beer..

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Chrysalis, I couldn't let your point get lost in the enthusiasm. I have this precise disagreement with a work colleague of mine. He has activism in his blood where I relate to Taoism, which is very 'eat and be' or “Doing nothing is better than being busy doing nothing”. I think it's a very interesting distinction.

The best way to demonstrate the eat and be philosophy is perhaps in Ch 48 of the TTC…

…
Keep on diminishing and diminishing,
Until you reach the state of Non-ado.
Non-Ado, and yet nothing is left undone.
…

Perhaps the eat and be is saving his energy, yet ready to pounce at the precise time that he or she has something worthy to offer.

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GW,
of course we can again get stuck in contemplation about truths and points of view. But how does it change the world that you relate to Taoism and not to activism. I'm not interested in discussing -isms.

Best wishes

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Nor am I, I was using two 'isms to demonstrate a point.

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Keep on diminishing and diminishing,
Until you reach the state of Non-ado.
Non-Ado, and yet nothing is left undone.

GW - I wonder if what this is refering to is the 'emptiness' from letting go of everything, so one can be open to hearing the message.  This is part of the community-building process Peck outlined.  It's important that folks in the community be present for the process and be heard.  Activism is a response to hearing the message from the place of emptiness.  If it takes place within the community, as a community concensus, it comes after the process is complete, when the community decides that that is what it wants to focus on.  One can also be silent within the community, as long as he or she is 'present' in the process.

I guess it's important for me to say here that for me, all of this about building community, not one, but several communities for different needs of the folks here at zaadz.  Doing this in cyberspace cannot accommodate all the aspects of face-to-face communities in the process.  All the aspects of communication or group dynamics are not present; however, some of them are…

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Does religion destroy spiritual autonomy

I don't think so. Religion is built by people, so

people->religion->destruction of autonomy

so, i would say that people destroy spiritual autonomy and religion is simply the tool they use to do that.

-
http://pods.zaadz.com/thegreatawakening

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Will,

I am in awe as well.  This began as a comment posted on a blog, an idea a fellow Zaadster in England proposed.  When I read this … I immediately saw the potential.  All day yesterday this kept coming back and coming back … and would not go away.

So late yesterday evening I sat down and put it together.  During the day while pondering how to word the introduction I thought the task a bit daunting, once I sat down it was crystal-clear.

I was amazed at how quickly it came together … and was even more amazed at the enthusiasm, as Will states. 

I didn't do this, folks.  Janos wrote the initial words.  I merely helped bring it into form.  And all of us, each and every one here, will help in achieving the objectives.

This, to me, is Spirit.

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amazing how one small question can create so many wonderful posts!!!

thanks all..

phase 2 , after pizza and spring water= what's next?

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amazing how one small question can create so many wonderful posts!!!

thanks all..

phase 2 , after pizza and spring water= what's next?

-

movie and bed

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Wow, great discussion fellow Knights and Maidens!!!

Just wanted to throw 2 cents in, LOL…

What do you get when you take Spiritual Belief and institutionalize it into a Corporation?
You get RELIGION!!!

A long time ago, Religion and State were inseparable, but someone decided to branch into two…as there is more of that Green Stuff to be made that way!

Anyway…this pod and all its discussions have to run their course…be it agreement or disagreement…it will lead us further on this road we're travelling…

You know the saying…”First you gotta get through the Mud before you get to the Water!”

~Ariela~

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This 'discussion' and banter is exactly what the 'first phase' of community making is about!  It's about finding out who we are, where we 'stand' or what we believe - all the 'positions' and assumptions about why we are here in this pod, and what is the right way to go about things, and pretenses. 

It takes a while to get through this phase, and I suspect it's even harder in cyberspace.  So Keith, don't be wanting to get to Phase II just yet.  There's a lot of ground that still has to be covered…

From the Wikipedia web site:

Community building

In his book The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace', Scott Peck says that community has three essential ingredients:

• Inclusivity
• Commitment
• Consensus

Based on his experience with community building workshops, Scott Peck says that community building typically goes through four stages:

• Pseudocommunity: This is a stage where the members pretend to have a bon homie with one another, and cover up their differences, by acting as if the differences do not exist. Pseudocommunity can never directly lead to community, and it is the job of the person guiding the community building process to shorten this period as much as possible.

• Chaos: When pseudocommunity fails to work, the members start falling upon each other, giving vent to their mutual disagreements and differences. This is a period of chaos. It is a time when the people in the community realize that differences cannot simply be ignored. Chaos looks counterproductive but it is the first genuine step towards community building.

• Emptiness: After chaos comes emptiness. At this stage, the people learn to empty themselves of those ego related factors that are preventing their entry into community. Emptiness is a tough step because it involves the death of a part of the individual. But, Scott Peck argues, this death paves the way for the birth of a new creature, the Community.

• True community: Having worked through emptiness, the people in community are in complete empathy with one another. There is a great level of tacit understanding. People are able to relate to each other's feelings. Discussions, even when heated, never get sour, and motives are not questioned.

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apologies for going back to this, what Keith said earlier:
“The issue would probably be about “organization”.  Is this not true?  To advocate non-organization is anti-human nature.  We tend to do this as a species.  Perhaps you're referring to strict hierarchal structure and rigid teachings”

You ask is this not true?  I do not believe that it is.  To advocate non-organization is not anti-human it is anti-masculine in nature.  We have discussed before the need to bring back the divine Feminine.  To me, that means embracing all parts of our selves, even those parts we have been taught not to like, even to hate and fear.  I am doing this in my personal life right now, this is part of my journey, my life's teachings.  I am striving to recognize, to embrace, and eventually to love all of me.  It's not easy.





Rules will run more people away, people who may very well have important things to contribute.  Stop trying to control the direction the conversation goes. There is no wrong path, there is no wrong direction.  For that matter, there is no destination, only the path.  There is no end, only new beginnings.  Doesn't matter where we are going, as long as we enjoy the ride.

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Friendstacy, do you mean that a Matriarchal or even matrilineal society will have no structure, no norms, no organization? Planting and harvesting need organization, doesn't it? Every cooperative effort will need structure and organization. Maybe there doesn't need to be a Law of Planting, but as society grows won't organizational structure be needed? How is structure more male than female?

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Curmudgeon said:
“Friendstacy, do you mean that a Matriarchal or even matrilineal society will have no structure, no norms, no organization? Planting and harvesting need organization, doesn't it? Every cooperative effort will need structure and organization. Maybe there doesn't need to be a Law of Planting, but as society grows won't organizational structure be needed? How is structure more male than female?”

no.  no.  no.  no.  How is structure more male than female?  Because it's about control.  The leaders, those who seek control of other people, need structure and organization in order to lead.  I'm suggesting something totally different, where nobody is in control of anyone else.  You might think the orchestra needs a conductor, but we aren't making chamber music, we are dancing, and even if we each dance to our own tune (which is what I propose we all must do) that doesn't mean any one of us is stepping on anyone else's toes or pushing them out of the way.  How boring it is to be stuck in this ballroom world, all of us dancing the way someone else decided was best for us. 

Aristotle's categories only apply to the male way of thinking, it doesn't work for me at all.  My brain doesn't work that way.  I don't have the need to organize everything, put everything in it's place, in order for my world to make sense.  Consider who we think of as great philosophers, how many of them were women?  Even more importantly, how many of them were working class rather than ruling class elitists?  Why is their way of thinking better than mine?  Only because that is the way things have always been thought about, that is the way things have always been done.  And it's not working so well.  Let's give the Mothers of the world, our grandmothers especially, a chance to show us how to get along….  We can cooperate without needing someone telling us how to do it, organizing our efforts.  Maybe what I'm best at is tending the fields, while my husband is best at plowing, and our neighbor, maybe he's really good at picking corn.  We can each do our part based on what needs to be done without someone telling us our role.

Chaos is a woman, surely you know that!  But she doesn't have to be feared, we should cherish her and love the beauty that she is, and have fun.  Having fun is what it's all about.  Let go of the notion that one must either control others or be controlled.  We can be autonomous, we MUST be!!

a matriarchal society does not mean the women would be in control, that's the male way of doing things.  It's something so totally foreign to the way we live, and even the way we think about our world, about society, about people….  Can someone help me find the words to express this???

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If we applied your idea of chaos, which is what it is, to say…. the science of medicine… We’d all be dead. Systematic organization is not evil and its not even masculine or feminie. I’d say that the world and the universe operate under a very structured, very hierarchial set of rules or laws… This is an example of Big T truth.

I for one, have no problem being under the control of or being controled by… say gravity… and I definitely want my doctor to follow an organized method of diagnosis and treatment. So how is organization when it comes to social structures inherently masculine and bad? And I understand the history of patriarchal systems and I understand how this has developed through history in many differenct cultures. Are you saying all hierarchies are descended from our patriarchal past? Even the feminist movement is highly organized, especially at a political level

I guess I don’t get what you’re saying… or maybe I do and just disagree.

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Friendstacy, her (chaos') name was (is?) Tiamat

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Friendstacy, you have spurred me to get out my Kropotkin (regrettably he is the only anarchist philosopher I have in my library and is a male).

Structure and organization are not about control, they are abut structure and organization. Laws are about control. Seems like the issues you are addressing have more to do with Authority than with social organization. If you have thirty people come with their scythes to harvest your oats some organization will be helpful to decide who will be where and do what job, perhaps someone will be needed in the kitchen to help feed the workers. If the person doing the baking doesn't follow precedures (rules/recipes) the baking may not work out too well.

What is negative about organization?

It can be negative surely, but not inherently. If the structure overwhelms (too many laws, rules, bureaucracy, etc.) the purpose of having structure it can smother the life of the society or the religion, etc., but some organization or structure will be present in life at various levels, don't you think?

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

I just found an example of what I mean about organization.
From Sepia Mutiny(http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004636.html) by way of BoinBoing.net (http://www.boingboing.net/): (with apologies about the formatting)

A lack of coordination between relief organizations can have serious
effects. During the 2005 Pakistan earthquake all the groups involved
worked without even a map to determine who was most important to reach,
who had been reached, and who still needed help. Not only were they
uncoordinated, but they were hostile to the very idea of coordination:

no one was coordinating the hundreds of aid groups… Improving coordination would not be hard, the economists realized…. they designed

a simple form and approached donors with a simple request: whenever you
send out a consignment, please fill out one of these. There were paper copies available as well as a Web-based form and a call center.

The
reaction, when it was not actually hostile, tended to be derisive: “Are
you mad? You to want us to spend time filling out forms when people are
dying? We need to go and go fast.” Go where? the economists wanted to
ask. But nobody seemed to care… the most reputable Pakistani NGO … did not fill out a single form. The United Nations team filled out a few. [Link]

The same sort of thing happened after the
Tsunami - plenty of groups stepped in, but their efforts were not
coordinated at all, so areas near roads got too much (and often of the
wrong stuff) while areas further out went without.

Why don’t they do better? Well, everybody is insuch a hurry to do something that nobody wants to do the unglamorouswork of coordination so that those most in need get helped. And ofcourse it doesn’t hurt than neither voters nor donors penalize governments or NGOs a year later if it turns out that their efforts yielded nice PR photos but did little to help those most in need.
We need more than feel good efforts, we need either accountability or a whole bleepload of gopher wood.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Curmudgeon,

I would like to see this post to be discussed in a new thread. I think it is too important to get lost in a 100-replies-thread on spirituality. It could be better for a lot of people in this pod to see this important detail you just put up if it had its own spot of attention. Do you agree?

Best wishes

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Sure, keeping in mind that this post wasn't really about the chaos in the places mentioned, but about just what it is about organization/structure/etc., that that is getting friendstacy's goat, or could be compatible with anarchism, if you want to look at it that way.

But it is fine with me whatever way you want to approach it.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Ok…well, I suggest you treat and post it the way you feel good about before I copy it somewhere else and misquote you or your intention.

What I was getting at though, was a reminder or wake up call about how this entire change needs coordination instead of a rush to help and help now or better even, help yesterday. I thought this was a very important detail for the pod, especially since we are spread all over the planet.

Best wishes

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Go for it Chrysalis, I have no objections to any way yo want to present it. I think your idea is good.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Once a community is formed, organization seems to want to inject itself; however, organizing tends to break down the community and cause division…

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Religion could and has become a veil to genuine spirituality, defending on who is practicing the religion.

Dogmatic sectarian religion we all agree is the worst enemy of religion.

True practice of religion of doing selfless charity, real self work, and being tolerant, and trying to cultivate the virtues is the best friend of religion

Unfortunately religion has become a psychological power crutch for most that are religious, thereby basically rendering it useless, and making it all power politics, and sectarian selfishness.

Religion is an offshoot of metaphysics

Religion was originally created by an Adept [Jesus, Moses, Hermes, Muhammad, Buddha, Chrisna, Lao Tzu] who read the evolutionary intelligence of “god” and was allowed because of epochal intelligence to create this low form of spirituality for the masses.

Generally it has not worked because religion, spirituality, and metaphysics, the tools created to bring man back to his true nature- after the primordial fall, has been ruined by man himself.

In other words the medicine has even been corrupted by the corrupted human!

The way out of this is for conscious people to concentrate on the best of religion: self work, meditative sciences, real charity, real compassion, tolerance, and love as best one can do, and strive always to become better.

That is real religion, as one said above, and as Rumi spoke 1000 years ago:

“I practice the religion of love”.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

I'll jump in here to our own little pseudocommunity;) 

Yes, we can build real community in the way T/A outlined…not because she (or Scott Peck) said so, but just because that's the way it seems to work.  Thank you for reminding me about Peck's work…I was excited about it at the time I read it and then I promptly forgot all about it until you brought it up just now.

I agree with almost everyone so far…seeing religion and spirituality from many different perspectives.  I've been on most sides of the equation…spiritual without religion, religious without much spirituality, and both spiritual and religious simultaneously.  It seems like all generalizations are flawed because there are so many variations and factors.

My own perspective goes back to the slogan about those in religion believing in hell and those who are spiritual already having been to hell.  I just love that…a generalization that doesn't take itself too seriously…and is mostly true in my case. 

In my experience, going back to the original question…organized religious HAS NOT destroyed, but HAS sometimes interfered with my spiritual autonomy. 

As we intend to open ourselves to doing good for ourselves and the world…we are (in my book) being both spiritual and (at least potentially) religious.  Getting to know the other knights and maidens is great so far.

With appreciation,
Helen

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Helen, thanks for your post.  I want everyone here to understand that I am not 'promoting' any particular kind of community; however, I have experienced several kinds of communities, and they all do tend to follow certain processes.  The main thing I am trying to get across is what definition can we give ourselves?  Or do we want to give ourselves any?  What does it look like, how does it behave?  If it is all - inclusive, which hopefully it is, then is this a place where we can come to some agreement about ourselves?  And how do we do that?  Maybe my comments belong in another board, but I was responding to Keith's original post a while ago.

If these discussions are intended to be open ended, and like 'salons', there is no need to come to any conclusions or consensus about anything.  Maybe I have misunderstood the whole idea…it's a possibility…

To get to the question, to me spirituality is my connection to my source.  Religion is the overlay of rules, guidelines, dogma, physical manifestation, ritual, routine, etc. onto that.  I can choose it or not, especially after I become aware that it was 'laid on me' as a child… The less I am connected with my source, the more influence religion has as an outside effect. 

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Stacy …

“Rules will run more people away, people who may very well have important things to contribute.  Stop trying to control the direction the conversation goes. There is no wrong path, there is no wrong direction.  For that matter, there is no destination, only the path.  There is no end, only new beginnings.  Doesn't matter where we are going, as long as we enjoy the ride.”

You miss the objective of this pod.  We are not here to argue and we are not here to push a personal agenda.  You are certainly entitled to your opinions.  But the entire purpose of this pod is to plan.  This is a working pod.  We actually intend to do something. 

To state ”there is no wrong path, there is no wrong direction” is to deny the present reality of the world in which we live when every single person reading this knows rationally and intuitively that something is not quite right, we've somehow gotten off track and we need to take things in a different direction. 

I will most certainly let everyone know when the conversation gets off focus.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Keith…

I think that rules is a bad term and maybe many people are getting hung up on that. I for one am not. I believe in an ultimate morality and an ultimate truth, but thats for another post. Maybe what we’re looking for here is not rules but traditions. In AA there are 12 steps, yes, but there are also 12 traditions that govern the group conscience.

I think people may be more open to a group that has a standard set of traditions. This is something that, for all of Peck’s wisdom, I think missed in his community building formula or theory.

And I agree with you, there are many unspoken rules, even within very unorganized movements. And maybe we’re getting a little off track. Would you please tell me what it is that we are trying to organize? Again, back to organization. My BA was in leadership and organizational management, much of which pertained to the church, but within any organization there is a mission and vision which guides the organization.

What is our mission and vision?

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

The 12 Traditions are guideposts that define norms for an AA group.  It may not matter what model we use, but in my opinion we certainly need to move more into consensus mode rather than into defining an 'organization'.  Actually, in my experience of Peck's model, there are norms for the community.  I might add that trying to define what this is about is part of the process of building a community…

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Ah! Pastor Mike!  Great question!

Eventually we will evolve into twelve groups made up of twelve members each to act as a catalyst or incubator for change, or growth if you will, in twelve specific categories.  This is the mission.  The vision is, I suppose, a just, equitable and sustainable society.

This is open for further elaboration, of course.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

To state ”there is no wrong path, there is no wrong direction” is to deny the present reality of the world in which we live when every single person reading this knows rationally and intuitively that something is not quite right, we've somehow gotten off track and we need to take things in a different direction.

here here.

You miss the objective of this pod.  We are not here to argue and we are not here to push a personal agenda.  You are certainly entitled to your opinions.  But the entire purpose of this pod is to plan.  This is a working pod.  We actually intend to do something.

ok, so what are we going to do?

–
http://pods.zaadz.com/thegreatawakening

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Religion is based on *rules* that dis-empower its members.
Spirituality is based on personal freedom, expession, and thought.

I, for one, don't see one affecting the other.

Religion (as an entity) may try to destroy spirituality, only because spirituality is a threat to religion's existence.

Think about it….
Can religion destroy your autonomy?

Not hardly…. unless you want it to.

And is religion a threat to spirituality?  It never will be for me.

For me, religion and spirituality could be compared to a throw rug and an upholstered chair.  Both can give you fuzzy feelings depending upon what you prefer.  Fuzz on your rear or fuzz on your feet?

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

thats funny!

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

'Scuse me, Perpetually, we must remember that we are standing on the shoulders of our ancestors.  Remember the burning of women who were believed to be witches?  Did religion destroy their spirituality?

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

'Scuse me, Perpetually, we must remember that we are standing on the shoulders of our ancestors.  Remember the burning of women who were believed to be witches?  Did religion destroy their spirituality?

Well probably not. but their physical body certainly didn't fair to well

–
http://greatawakening.michaelsharp.org/

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Nope…. sure didn't change nor destory their spiritual thinking…. because

It Is Still Alive and Exists.

Religous Zealots burned witches at the stake for nothing…. no great cause was administered.  Wicca still exists.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

“Religion is based on *rules* that dis-empower its members.
Spirituality is based on personal freedom, expession, and thought.”

Given that we plan to change the world, given that we intend to actually put change into action…how is this comment going to help? First of all….if you call it spirituality or religion, human beings seem to have a natural need for it.

Some do it in groups and call it religion, some do it alone and call it spirituality. But it's the same matter, it is a spiritual path or spiritual tradition. Some are feeling happy being individuals, some need a group, some are born leaders, some are born guides, some are followers.
So again, how is is attitude helping? I'm asking because the comment above represents a fair number of people. Even I say, I don't want to follow, I'm not someone who needs to be told what to do. But some people enjoy less responsibility and they enjoy rules. Yes, sometimes they don't look like it, they have grumpy faces. Some religions appear to be without any joy. But just as well as some people are individuals, some others have “victim” as their comfort zone and choose a spiritual path that suits them. This is NOT the fault of any existing religion.

Best wishes

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

But some people enjoy less responsibility and they enjoy rules.


Wow.  I disagree.  Geez, Chrysalis, I disagree with you a lot!  LOL

Empowerment lies in responsibility.  Perhaps the “changing” should be centered around empowering people spiritually to think for themselves, and to then follow their own personal path.

A simple perspective could say people enjoy rules surrounding their souls (as religion has), but I feel that when it is thought about in a round, whole, complete way, that just doesn't fit.  That  approach is centered in ego, not in personal truth.  I personally feel there is enough ego in the world.

Religion IS based in rules and dis-empowers people.  Religion seeks to control. 

Spirituality seeks to free.

How is that not relevant?
Or were you suggesting to start a new religion, instead of focus on empowering people spiritually?  That is the only way I can think how what I said to be irrelevant to you.  And if that IS the case, that proves my first point exactly.

Whatever the case, saying that one's answer is not relevant or not going to help which was in direct reference to the Question asked, is pretty rude.

I am personally here to work With people and understand people, not insult them or their posts.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Well, PM, then we have to make sure that we discuss, not argue or insult. And if it helps…my posts are never meant to insult anyone. For the most part they are just passionate about something. So I apologise if you felt insulted.

My point here is what you said, and what Helen says below. Spirituality good, religion bad. Full stop. End of story. But I don't agree. I've also tried to explain. But maybe the simple approach is the best: in both cases there are people behind it. Religion and spirituality would not exist if there were no people believeing in them. They believe in them for different reasons. Personal attraction, familiy tradition, you name it. But my point is: there is nothing wrong with religion. There is something wrong with people who have used religion as a vehicle for power and control in the past. As we get ahead with changing the world, I think this is a point that needs fixing. Because the basic religious traditions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, whatever….they all were meant to make people happy and offer a path for spiritual and personal development. There is no reason to have religions removed. They only have to serve the people again.

I think there are just as many people lost in spirituality as there are in religion. And in this case I mean commercial spirituality. The Celestine Prophecy, The Secret, Think and Grow Rich, Sacred Contracts….there is something wrong on both sides of the coin that is called Belief System.

Best wishes

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

I think you completely misunderstood my first post, Chrysalis.

The last line… the bottom line that I wrote stated it is basically a choice or preference to what one wants to experience.  I never said religion was bad.

However…. religions were created to control people, NOT empower them.

But seriously… and I'm being Very serious….

I don't understand AT ALL what you just wrote about *fixing* what other people do or how other people use religion.  Not only is that Not possible (because it goes against other people's free will), the mere spoken phrase assumes that You or WE, have a better way, which is based in ego.

In My Belief system, there IS no good, better, best way.  There is only personal truth.  To form yet, Another religous/spiritual facet of someone else's personal truth is just an insult to the rest of us!

Why can't this be worked from a point of Inspiration?  What Grace (Traveling Alchemist) said about being an example, makes sense to me.  We set examples, we share our stories, and we share with others how we've found our personal joy.  That is the only viable way I see to implement any kind of change without creating More ego.

When one speaks to another from *lack* the message lacks.  An example….  The world needs more compassion, we aren't compassionate enough, you need to be more compassionate.  What feeling is That going to evoke?  You are lacking and you need this.  Sure, you'll get a few followers.

Now what happens when you change the message's core?  Speak from a full cup of joy, share with others the joy you experience, and THEN share with them how you got there…. you have a Whole New Ballgame.  People become emotionally involved and want to create better in their lives:  physically, emotionally, AND spiritually.

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Thanks, friends, for weaving this thread into something special.  It feels optimistic and empowering.  I'm happy I stopped by to read your posts!  It feels like a community, regardless of the specifics of where one stands on spirituality vs. religiousity.  The willingness to listen and to share, in a safe environment, is beautiful.

Peace,

Earon

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

In community everyone is a leader and each member is responsible for the success of the community.  The members decide by consensus what the next step is, and who is to do what…There is no heirarchy.  Everyone is autonomous.  There are 'norms' that are agreed to by consensus. 

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

“Eventually we will evolve into twelve groups made up of twelve members each to act as a catalyst or incubator for change, or growth if you will, in twelve specific categories.  This is the mission.  The vision is, I suppose, a just, equitable and sustainable society.”

I'm glad to have this reminder…we seem to get lost in minutia (or maybe that's just me.)

Keith, a practical question…does that mean that we can only belong to one of the twelve groups?  There are lots of good discussions going on in this pod.

With appreciation for your efforts to herd cats,
Helen

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

LOL! Helen … so funny!

Yes, Grand One, that was the original intent … eventually.  Choose an area of expertise, or of “passion” and make that your home.  We're only three days old here, still very nebulous, lots of chaos here, postings and people all over the place … which is fine for now.  I am thrilled you're enjoying the experience.

Eventually, though, we will all need to find a place to call our own.  This was intended from the beginning to be a working pod.  Twelve groups with twelve members each with their own goals, their own criteria, their own agenda.  See? 

I envision in time at least twelve moderators each having responsibility for a single board.  I already see some taking facilitator positions in threads, so if you wish to begin organizing and anyone feels they are ready and willing to accept the position of lead facilitator, or if you would like to recommend someone … you can at least begin discussing it.

The goals or agenda for each board will be different.  Cannot have a one-size-fits-all here.  Objectives for Politics will be completely different from Science or Faith goals.  So this may need to be a topic of discussion as well.

Be kind.  Agree to disagree from time to time.  The long-term goal is, however, to reach consensus, to facilitate growth.  We can be the change …

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Excellent, Keith…good explanation to start looking for my particular direction…to find the place I feel most attracted to, to make my own (hopefully unique and meaningful) contribution.

The energy here is very exciting and uplifting…spirituality is my passion, so I guess I'm already home.

I do think it's possible to have a community of spiritual people…so I don't think that spirituality is necessarily a singular pursuit or that a community of spiritual people is necessarily a religion.  But I get how we're using the terms here….and in general I agree:  spirituality good, religion bad.

Helen

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Helen,

as spirituality is your passion, maybe you want to join the sub-discussion above or even start a new thread. I think we might get ahead on this matter.

Best wishes

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

Hi ya'all, i'm humbled to be able to be a part of this discussion. For me religion was never a problem! I wasn't raised in one….What was a problem for me was being indoctrinated into a materalistic culture that taught as it's main value-unbridled consumerism to satisfy my unquenchable selfish desires at any cost.
When i did finally find religion as a young adult i considered it a great joy for the most part and have been passionately studying all the worlds traditions on my own for over 25 years.And i'm wondering what the problem is here…….Is it religion itself that is the issue, or the abuse and unhealthy mind-sets and practices within all the traditions? In my opinion ,religion isn't going away any time soon, so what do we do to make the needed adjustments within the systems? The last thing i think we need is a one world religion that has no diversity of belief. That system would be against nature itself. How do we get the worlds religious people to treat eachother with respect and tolerance for the various and differing takes on the universe? I don't think bashing eachother over the heads about past errors and bad behavior is going to be helpful. We are all male and female on this planet together and i think it's going to take the combined resourcefulness of both genders to solve the issues within religion. Will it be painful? Yes, all new birth is, but the pain can be lessoned by a good mid-wife or doctor…….I have a sense though, that we just might be up for the challenge!
Peace and Compassion, Andrew……

Re: Spirituality VS Religiosity

What really is the issue here?  There isn't a problem with either belief…Spi