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Faith and Doubt

Enlightened.thinker said Aug 8, 2007, 3:49 AM:

What, if anything shakes your faith? In a higher power? In your fellow human? In yourself? How do you cope with it? What can be done to allieviate doubt?

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Re: Faith and Doubt

PerpetuallyMe [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 7:48 AM:

Interesting question.

I've been through some crap. And while plugging through my crap, I never lost faith. Doubt didn't enter. In fact, just the opposite… I grew stronger in faith.

Losing faith in other people, happens to be something I've had an issue with more than once. Because I have such strong faith, it is easy for me to place that faith in someone else…. when in reality, the faith should have only been placed in me.

I've learned that Every Single Time I place my faith in someone, I Will Be Disappointed. Why? My faith doesn't belong anywhere outside of myself. And when I do that, I'm just asking for trouble (and always get it).

We all have our lessons, and faith has been a strong part of my life since I can remember. (And I remember being in diapers! How crazy is That?)

Alleviating doubt? I don't think it is something to alleviate. Doubt is something one brings.

So if you don't want to doubt, don't bring it.

Re: Faith and Doubt

Curmudgeon [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 8:47 AM:

Doubt is essential. Without doubt we would never inquire, investigate, get to the bottom of things, dive in over our heads, or any of those things that stretch us beyond our perceived limitations. The Great Doubt is important in Zen and, really, any other gnostic quest. The dark night of the soul will come.

But then there is another kind of doubt like the doubt people experience when they have a bad thing happen, like people who had their “faith in God” shaken when the Twin Towers Fell. I was fascinated by how often the question was asked about whether people's Faith in God had been shaken at the time. So fragile… so fragile.

Or the ferocity that some people direct against doubters when Fundamentalism (regardless of religious brand) is questioned. The problem here is not with the doubt, it is with the “faith”. Castles made of sand fall in the sea… eventually, as Jimi expressed it. If your “Higher Power” is somewhere outside, then you are doomed to lose when doubt comes along, because what is “outside” could care less about your individual existence, it just isn't that important. And doubt is sure to come.

We and everything we hold dear can be swept aside at any moment, something we in the affluent West frequently choose to forget. Before the 20th century life was a pretty dodgy affair everywhere. There is a pretty freaking big dose of doubt (aka: Reality) coming up over the horizon, so you'd better get comfortable with doubt, insecurity and the basis of your own center as soon as you can… but that is subject for an entirely new pod, so … never mind…

In 100 years we'll all be dead and working on whatever adventure there is then, in 5 generations no one will care about your existence but the genealogists (if there are any genealogists around), so relax, and feel free to doubt.

Re: Faith and Doubt

Chrysalis [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 8:53 AM:

I don't feel very comfortable with the word doubt. Doubt (in my opinion) suggests the investigation of something in order to find a mistake, which is presumed to be there all along. If we use the term “shifting our perspective”, we are able to accept a point of view and look at an issue from a new angle afterwards. Doubt only looks for mistakes instead of understanding a perspective, the way I see it. When I say “understanding”, I don't necessarily mean that an opinion becomes my own only because I understand and accept it.

Best wishes

Re: Faith and Doubt

Keith said Aug 8, 2007, 10:13 AM:

If I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion here to all in this thread … E.T., P.Y., Curmudgeon, Chrysalis …

I've been seeing conversations like this on other threads and what I see is discord over the use of a word. One introduces a word, in this case “doubt”, another elaborates, another disagrees entirely feeling the word inappropriate or unacceptable.

We are using the English language as a convenient medium of exchange … but we all come from different countries and regions. I'm from the southern US, so ”doubt” to me may have slightly nuanced meanings different from someone living in England, or the western US, or India, or Australia. Why? Because we have varied experiences and cultural backgrounds.

I do see consensus here. This is what the pod is all about. Don't trip over a word. Condense the main concept or concepts down and find agreement … then make up a word if you have to!!! If “doubt” is mostly right … but not quite there … or this “other” common meaning for “doubt” is offensive or could be misinterpreted by others … then either find another word or make up a word that properly addresses the message you wish to convey.

We're here to create anyway. So … create!

Re: Faith and Doubt

Curmudgeon [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 10:36 AM:

Well, I find the differences interesting. If you will notice Chrysalis and I posted almost simultaneously, in fact he posted while I was rereading my post. We weren't reacting to each other, no discord involved…

And I doubt Chrysalis is easily offended from what I can see. I get annoyed but it takes a lot to offend me. I think people around here are entirely too easily offended. Generally if someone is using a word in a way I don't understand I will tell them and ask for clarification, I think clarity is important whether we are speaking face to face or on a computer, clarity of language and clarity of thought which are related but not identical. Sometimes people are sloppy in their thinking and their language, in that case someone should ask for clarification. Sometimes they are just not skilled in writing as a means of expression, sometimes they are not in their native tongue, patience and helpfulness then will be appropriate. But I think that if we assume that people are thoughtful adults and that they are interested in what other people think about what they have said (why else would they be posting in a discussion forum?) then there will be discussion, debate and work done toward better understanding. Where is the discord here?

I think Chrysalis and I addressed different aspects of the word “doubt”, no disagreement, just different aspects of the word, in fact the two posts give a fuller dimension to the word. Let's not make up words, please! There is entirely too much of that on this website already. We have a perfectly good language at our disposal, let's use it. Be explicit in your definitions if you feel the need.

Re: Faith and Doubt

Chrysalis [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 12:10 PM:

LOL, Keith and Curmudgeon, I agree. Sometimes it needs a voice of reason to say “stay put”. :-)) And no, I'm not offended, and no I won't argue that we have to define our terms first so in order to change the world, we understand each other. Bit like the Tower of Babel, isn't it. Thanks for the reminder, Keith.

Best wishes

Re: Faith and Doubt

Curmudgeon [no longer around] said Aug 10, 2007, 3:34 AM:

Let's compromise, Keith…

Re: Faith and Doubt

Keith said Aug 10, 2007, 5:35 AM:

Here! Here!

But not me. I'm not really in the discussion. Merely pointing out a solution to the issue that developed.

Of late, I've decided not to put my two-cent's worth in. Everyone is working through their issues on their own.

If you study the “Community Building” information re-posted on the “Read First” board please notice this is the “Emptying” phase, which is the third of four. It only took about four days to reach this stage. Way, way cool.

So you guys compromise away!!!

Re: Faith and Doubt

Tuan [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 9:57 AM:

We are living in a world of Duality, faith and doubt are always go hand in hand. One choose faith for comfort other choose doubt for comfort, and who is right and who is wrong??? If somehow we can see two faces of a coin at the same time, faith and doubt doesn't mean much anymore.

Like a post above Doubt can enhance Faith and vice versa depend on what kind of mood we are in.

I remember Socrates used to use Doubt to find the truth, he even doubt that he has a body.

We should not weight the two together. Doubt can be good sometime and Faith can be bad sometime or vice versa. Let it just be then we are all comfortable.

Re: Faith and Doubt

Chrysalis [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 12:18 PM:

Aley,

back to your question. I think this thread could be able to work as a spot to encourage each other here in this pod. There is a lot out there which could shake the faith and the enthusiasm of the participants, so somewhere else I suggested to find a way of lifting each other back up if one is stumbling.

In saying that, I suggest to rationalise and analyise. For myself it works very well to find out where the doubt came from and how it got to me in the first place. Then I see what I might have misperceived and what I need to do for myself.
Using Buddhism as an example, we say that the teachings, the Dharma, is right, true and pure. It is not touched by the way it gets judged and perceived by those who misunderstand things. And I think this is often the case in many belief systems. The mistake, more often than not, is on the human side, not on the side of the belief system. So this is where I find my trust and my faith can't really be shaken.

But of course, as I said above, a sensible amount of doubt is good, and it is always healthy to reassess and reinvestigate what you believe in and what others believe in, just to get a different angle.

Best wishes

Re: Faith and Doubt

cosmicbdog [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 12:46 PM:

If it can be tested… it will be… if it can be shaken… it probably will.

What if we're holding onto beliefs that will not stand these tumultuous times? Should we fight for their survival or rest in the fragility of their illusion? Let go of the illusory strengths and develop true ones.

What is unquestionable? What is eternal in your view? What beliefs continue to deliver faith to you in your hardest times? How can we expand and bring those beliefs into view more often so that those unbreakable core views become what you mostly project onto / seed into the world?

To alleviate doubt, could we try doubting doubt? Apply the same destructive force of it to itself? Seems inevitable… the universe of doubt eventually collapses on itself opening us up a world of complete belief. In my opinion, doubt is dropping like flies…. it has the nature of self destruction and I see that as a way of teaching us something, then exiting our world as a way of clearing the field for the freedom that is coming. An essential game needed to learn. It could also be seen as the bacteria in the soil needed before the vegetables will grow in it.

Before we can truly believe, we must have doubt. Before playing the complex board game, you've got to learn how to read so you can at least understand the manual to play. 3 steps. Readings not necessarily essential to play the game but funnily enough we do need a language before we can triangulate together and create stuff in the world of 3D.

Doubt seems to be the creator of experiences which develop the emotions we use to experience our freedom. The doubt… loneliness… the restriction… the repression… the buildup… the release… the connections and communication… the freedom. All totally connected.

Perhaps its time to reinvent the feeling we have attached to doubt? Perhaps when doubt comes up, instead of shutting down the heart, getting uninspired, we could see it as a sign or a symptom of a change that is in the wind. That there is an opportunity within your reach to go beyond. I don't think this is just about being fearless and going beyond fear in the motivational sense… but truly fixing our perception of what doubt is…. clear the doubt around the doubt, you know? What is doubt written by a diamond tipped pen?

If you understand that what doubt is as an energy its kind of like a vacuum… the more we turn it on… the more it sucks away. Many pop spiritual teachers talk about being fearless and doubtless and try to ignore it as an element of our realm of thought and feelings, but its there and guess what? The more we ignore it the less we're allowing it to run its course of wiping itself out of our world so that it may make way for us to live beyond it. It is us who is attached to it by not letting ourselves getting involved in it… white bubble thinking… ignoring it. By ignoring it, perhaps by trying to aleviate it, we don't give ourselves the opportunity to actually see the fragility of the belief… and in my opinion… doubt in this day in age is like a Dam wall. Its still exists… its still concrete… but we all know concrete breaks and the water flows.

Re: Faith and Doubt

helenrscp said Aug 8, 2007, 2:41 PM:

My own experience is reflected in what Tuan said:

“We are living in a world of Duality, faith and doubt are always go hand in hand. One choose faith for comfort other choose doubt for comfort, and who is right and who is wrong??? If somehow we can see two faces of a coin at the same time, faith and doubt doesn't mean much anymore.”

I've had much more doubt in my life than faith until the last 10 or 15 years. Now there's only one thing I believe and have faith in FOR SURE:

We are living in a universe of benevolence and meaning.

Of course, even when I say I believe this for sure, I still find myself doubting occasionally. This doesn't mean that I know how any of it works (although I have my favorite ideas.) And I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me…but this is what I have the most faith in and the least doubt about.

Re: Faith and Doubt

Domus Ulixes said Aug 8, 2007, 4:57 PM:

The moment you doubt, is when you have put to much responsibility into faith. And thus basicly chance.
If you doubt, in any form of faith. Take action to understand.
Not to trust something, which evidently is doubtfull…

Re: Faith and Doubt

Enlightened.thinker said Aug 8, 2007, 7:06 PM:

WOW..great posts and discussion…and the wording, although “touchy” is one of those things we are limited in…some words limit us…I do not “doubt” that! LOL

Sometimes, I doubt people can ever reach consensus on anything. And to compromise, which is necessary in any relationship is necessary and also very difficult. I would like to think I maintain my faith in my fellow humans…as well as myself. I have a faith in a higher power, but would rather not name it. I sometimes look at the state of the world, and the intricate parts we play here and doubt we will ever find true peace…but I also have faith in my part…and if we are one united front, we can overcome all doubt.

So how do we find a solution to doubt? How do we come to a place of faith? And I speak not of religiosity here, but common purpose. Faith in our fellow beings to do the right thing and change the outmoded systems that are not working in the world.

How can we stop the insanity?

Re: Faith and Doubt

sandy said Aug 8, 2007, 7:12 PM:

Join zaadz ?

Re: Faith and Doubt

cosmicbdog [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 8:30 PM:

I tend to agree, I think we people are often over idealistic in our hope to find a consensus. We communicate to one another, and yet how often are we heard? Is it too much to expect to even be understood by many? Sometimes I think all I can hope for is that just something might be understood enough for conversation to flow on. I'm happy being misunderstood if people are high vibed off it and get enthused to contribute.

On the topic of faith in others, does it begins with faith in yourself? Having such faith in yourself and your process that such a tunnel vision is created of self faith, it cannot be unbuilt by the forces of doubt?

I believe the outmoded system is here because we lack faith in one another. We've opted to give our powers to a hierarchy who attempts to interpret the needs of the masses.

Do you have trouble asking people for the support you need? Asking for help and putting trust in others could be a worthy investment.

I've found people are often surprised by the amount of trust I have, and the support I've received from those who many would prefer to ignore walk on the planet. The underbelly of society… those who have been forgotten.

I feel we can have these huge dreams, but crash and burn, because we're looking to move a mountain, but essentially, you've got a water bottle sitting in front of you thats empty. We will move the mountain, but firstly, you need to drink some really fresh amazing water, the best you can find, because when your body and brain are mostly water, without it, how can you possible expect optimal thoughts and expectations to come about? How can we rely on you when you're just not getting the stuff your body needs? Is faith and doubt connected to physical health? I think so, hugely.

You could move a mountain by yourself… but you probably won't. Stopping the insanity in my opinion begins with removing the cloud of doubt which is very weak in nature. Is it possible we are driving ourselves crazy by having this ultimate ideal that is individually unachievable, meanwhile forgetting the thousand and one things we do daily that we have transformed within ourselves? What happened to that mountain of confidence? Did the dream expand too quickly or is this little reminder enough to lift platform, the ground up to meet your feet up on this higher level you have lifted being to?

I've found, when you're on this planet, and you're coming in with a higher ideal, naturally, its going to be hard to be understood. New world = new words or new meanings = misinterpretation. Paradigm Changers, people who come into this world who bring with them a whole new way of being seem to receive ultimate resistance, but with that they either crumble, or they develop the ultimate faith in themselves, and they eventually be it. Be the change. It is through the complete loss of all belief from others that your only relation becomes your creation… your vision… fusion.

Changing the world… it can be a lonely path I rekon. Why? Because essentially if you want to change the world you've got to reach in and delve into something that doesn't exist. It requires a walking away in a sense… a rebellion… of course there's going to be an isolation because of this. And you'll be tested, right? I mean, how much do you want to believe it? Completely? So then how much doubt needs to come up?

We stop the insanity, by letting go… continue to validate yourself on small things that are syncronistically manifesting in your world. No matter how big or small. You validate yourself on those things whether you directly created the novelty moments that aha you or not, you validate yourself on those things. When you make those amazing connections, big or small, you remind yourself that it is because of who you are, and everything you have done that has made it possible for this to exist… and if this moment is good, which it is, then you pull out that doubt slaying sword and take out another stab at the voodoo doll who tells you that the world is not awe inspiring and here to be believed in. You get it? One slice at a time.

Insanity is to live in a world where everything you've ever asked for has come true, and yet to continue doubting. It is to question why you have what you have and be discontent when this is your fantasy come true… perhaps not your fantasy of the present… but at one point in time, we dreamed up this world and this was the extent of what we reached for. In my opinion, gods god a list of things unfolding, or the creative universe has a process undoing, and how quickly we get to the top of the list comes down to how much we embrace the dreamlist we've got fulfilled. Get present and recognise its all here what we've asked for.

Does this help at all?

Re: Faith and Doubt

cosmicbdog [no longer around] said Aug 8, 2007, 8:45 PM:

In continuation of this…

What do we doubt?

What don't we believe in?

What do we think is not being supportive and how can we begin investing belief in those things?

Can we expect support systems to change if we doubt they have the capacity to do it?

If we doubt on a system, unable to change without us, aren't we not giving them the chance to have belief in themselves to change?

I'm not saying we don't include ourselves in the system and pray for people to believe and do the right thing. Sometimes somebody needs to turn on a light for people to see in a dark room. But if you're walking up to the door and wanting to be let inside hows that going to work out when your intention and projection is an expectancy of doubt and resistance?

Got to keep affirming where you have got the flow naturally going and glowing. Know what I mean? Get used to those doors opening… the road rising up to meet you… that sort of thing.

Re: Faith and Doubt

katrinamae said Aug 9, 2007, 9:05 PM:

What we resist, persists. It is a world of duality, so acceptance is key. Cosmicbdog and Tuan and Curmudgeon both said it poetically - that if we resist doubt, we have a castle that's going to melt into the sea eventually, taking faith or confidence or unshakeableness (hehee) with the tide. A few times, it's been mentioned that doubt can be used as a tool to find the shakey parts of our philosophies/paradigms/beliefs. Isn't that so true with all dualities? That you need the dark to see the light best? My doubt carried me through life, spiritually - it wasn't until I was a young teenager before I discovered I wasn't the only one who was doubting the god the churches were toting. I remember reading “Conversations with God” in amazement, like I had written the book in some previous life :). I've come so far since then!

In answer to the question, though, of what or who can shake my faith, I say the ultimate answer for me is that only I can shake my faith. All the factual events are just “whizzing by,” as Harry Palmer, author of “Living Deliberately” called it, and only I can assign meaning to those events. So, like it was said before in this thread by wise people, nothing outside of myself can shake me - it always comes from within, no matter who you are. It only seems as though it's from an outside source, right? Really, it's just us allowing something to affect us, which, if we listen to that, reveals a weakness or hypocrisy or just a point-to-improve-upon within our own, personal belief system.