How do you judge awakening?

This question was asked by by Meenakshi on another thread. I gave it some consideration and answered it at my pod. This is what I came up with. what you folks think?

http://pods.zaadz.com/thegreatawakening/discussions/view/173925#173925

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What a question eh. How do you measure awakening. For me its easy, if I want to know where I'm at in the process, or where someone else is at, I try and gauge their understanding of the following statement.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Well, that's a pretty tricky question, Michael. To demonstrate how tricky it can be, as my own personal example, I wouldn't have used any of the words in your defining statement as part of my own definition, except for one, and that one would be “consciousness”.

I understand the point you are trying to make with your equation-like statement, and I agree it's a common metaphor that will arise in the mind of large numbers (a large percentage) of people as they explore these kinds of ideas. 

But, it's not much like the models of “awakening” you'll find in a large number of self-development schools.

There are roughly 4 to 6 major models of “awakening” or “completion”, and a batch of minor variations in these models, that can be found in the systems from different parts of this planet - and they are often quite contradictory of each other.

But, to make an attempt to go along with your initial question, I would say that one should start with a behavioral model - that is, one can judge “awakening” not by looking at the 'doctrines', the descriptions, but at the behaviors of the persons being judged.
 

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Bottom line I don't think you can tell whether someone is awake or not, unless they exhibit blatant bad behavior but even there with the crazy wisdom idea how can you tell?

Of course extreme bad behavior like murderers, serial killers, embezzlers, rapists are obviously not awake.

But what we have to understand is that  many of these GURU types are adept at faking piety and have many people deceived, so it is difficult to determine beyond extremes who is awake in my opinion.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

That's interesting, Zak, because I would say fake piety is pretty easy to spot.

Just not easy to spot by the average person, necessarily. And it can take a while to get enough information about behaviors to make a good judgement.

But, if we started out with a “guilty until proven innocent” approach to extraordinary claims like claims of “awakenment”, as a practical tool, observing behaviors could still tell us a great deal.

My personal experience is that observing behaviors, including observing behaviors in writing, can tell a person a great deal.

It can't technically provide _proof_  of awakenment, but  I wasn't thinking we could acheive a proof, I was just thinking about ways of making judgements.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Maybe it's easy for you to spot. Also these “awake” masters or gurus control their environment; they live in a glass house. You won't see them on Zaadz talking to the people unless it's controlled by them.

I don't think we can know who is enlightened unless we ourselves get enlightened, and I am not even sure of that.

The only thing we have going for us in my opinion is that I personally believe that you could count the number of genuinely enlightened people on your fingers.

So most of these people who we see claim enlightenment are in my opinion not enlightened at all.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Zak said - I don't think we can know who is enlightened unless we ourselves get enlightened, and I am not even sure of that.

Well, like I said, we don't necessarily have to “know” (be able to conclusively prove) that someone is “enlightened” - what we want to be able to do is make useful judgements about the quality of the persons who might be “enlightened”, or are otherwise in a position to teach us something about life and mind and such.

So, as I see it, we are looking for tools to make judgements, not tools to prove or disprove awakenment. Altho we should remain open to the possibility that we might discover a way to prove enlightenment.

So, what are the typical ways people judge enlightened types?

There's doctrines.

There's energy and charisma.

There's teachings. (a bit different from doctrines, altho sometimes the same thing - doctrines are the “what”, teachings are the “how”)

There's miracles.

There's popularity.

And we'll put my suggestion at the bottom - behaviors.

So, typically, if a person likes somebodies teachings or doctrines, and gets an energy buzz from them, and other people seem to like them too, that's often enough to get them to judge that somebody as 'enlightened”.

It's kind of a catch-as-catch-can affair. Pretty emotional and charged and tribal - a “what tribe am I going to join?” kind of thing.

So. Zak, are you saying it's pointless to try to judge such things? How do you judge it?

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Sound like you guys know what Enlightenment is. So what is it??? I'm searching for that answer for so long, I came accross so many answers but non makes any sense to me. And what is Awaken???

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Hehe, Tuan. I was thinking the same thing. In Tibet, when somebody is enlightened, he or she will not tell you. Different reasons, including danger, humbleness….and anyway, why would anyone want to judge it. The need to examine in the western world is amazing. And yet, the scientific examination and understanding of the mind is still in stone age.

Best wishes

Re: How do you judge awakening?

why would anyone want to judge it.

Because there exists an “enlightenment” and religious industry. However, for many people, there would be no need to make such judgements, because they are not much affected by that industry.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

I have taken students to the Light Realms for a decade or more. I have met LLamas who are not awakened at the Buddhist Centers. Once a Llama traveled from Asia and was billed a Master. A young women was spinning the Pray wheel, he walked by and stopped and stopped her from spinning it. He proceeded to show her the right way to spin it. Is that the kind of awakening they do not want to talk about?

Well, I had a student of the Dalai Llama question my abilities to take people to the Light Realms. In his school with the Dalai there was not such a thing. I had a NASA Research Psychologist stand there and explain to him that what I do has been scientifically tested. Oh, yes, I can advertise that but I can state that I have taken hundreds of people to the light. If you want a Llama to take you, you have to go through years of chanting and prayers. I can take anyone who is ready by focusing my mind on them - distance is not issue.

Should I tell anyone? We are in a world wide crisis: Light Beings do not have time to hide. We are responsible for the planet and we must do our part to share our enlightenment.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

The “Light Realms” are not a big deal. Why are we getting into a pissing match about this?

I think we should ponder the ad which may or may not be to the right, it is certainly everywhere on Zaadz, for “the Whole 9” the two people are perfect for each other and perfect as a symbol for much discussion that takes place on zaadz: they are wearing reflective sunglasses so they can't really see each other only a slightly distorted reflection of themselves…

Re: How do you judge awakening?

“Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and it doesn't technically mean much of anything - it's an artifact of the early translations of the texts coming out of india a few centuries back.

Examples of the original words would include moksha, bodhi, samadhi, and nibbana - each of these has a specific technical meaning, and each represents a specific technical type of “enlightenment” - of the eastern type. There are also models of “enlightenment” that are more western, but these are less commonly thought of as “enlightenment”, and might be better described as variations on “sainthood” or “inspiration” or “enthusiasm”.

“Awakenment” has a much deeper history than “enlightenment”, as a metaphor for this stuff - bodh, the root of the word buddha, means something like 'to wake up' or 'to notice'. And the word “awakening” has been used as a metaphor for development in a number of places around the planet.

Having said that, let me suggest that this isn't the best place to discuss what “enlightenment” actually _is_, or might be. We're just kind of chatting about esoterica here, while everybody else figures put how to organize a “knights and maidens” project.

The important idea to remember is that “enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and it doesn't really mean anything specific.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Yes, yes it is. This is the post for esoteric stuff and stuff. But when I saw the word Enlightenment and Awakening, it draw my attention. Thanks for the explanation, but I still don't get it, not that I'm dumb (but I'm) but your explanation does not satisfy my curiosity.

As I've heard several times, Enlightenment and Awakening carry a deeper meaning then what you explain them to me. If I'm not mistaken, you are an atheist, correct???

Here is the definition that I've got so far, still doesn't make sense but here it is.

Enlightenment or Enlighten is fuse yourself with Light. Achieve Enlightenment is return to the Source of Creation (“First there will be Light”), they often call it Oneness. In our history there are many achieved this, the most popular one are Buddha, Jesus and Mohamed.

Awakening is awaken to your true self. Your true self is your soul, the eternal being. You are awaken to the fact that we are All That Is. We are one and all. And we are one collective being call GOD.

These are my understanding even if I have no clue what they really are since I don't experience that state directly. I can't judge this truth because they are not my own experience.

I'm sorry to bring these definitions up for they are irrelevant for the Esoteric discussion, but I thought you guy do experience Enlightenment and Awakening directly that is why you can judge them.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Enlightenenment is not a pop culture word.Unless the 18th century was part of pop culture.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

E.T. said -  Enlightenenment is not a pop culture word.Unless the 18th century was part of pop culture.

Well, I expect that categorization is a matter of perspective, and that you and I might be interpreting the expression “pop culture” differently.

Because I think of the awakenment tradition as being very old, to me, the 1700's are quite recent.

If you don't think the word 'enlightenment' belongs in the category of popular culture, what category do you think it belongs in?

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Tuan said - If I'm not mistaken, you are an atheist, correct???

Well, I'm no longer religious, altho in my lifetime I've practiced a number of religions. I don't think of myself as theist or a-theist. I'm simply not religious.

I used to talk to god all the time. God assured me that he/she/it does not exist, but god's quite the joker, so I don't take the claim to non-existence all that seriously.

Your definitions are well within the cultural norms, I would say most of the people in this age would recognize them and mostly agree.

I personally, tho, wouldn't agree with either of the definitions you gave.

I don't think you need to worry about wether or not they are correct, unless you get really, really, really serious about finding out for yourself. Then, like me, you'll read the books, study the origins of these ideas, do the practices, and find out for yourself.

It's hard work, tho, and there's no money in it, so I don't really recommend it.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Too late!! I already accepted the challenge and I love every bit of it even there is no money involve.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Tuan said - Too late!! I already accepted the challenge

It's quite an adventure, that's one thing to be said for it. One of the most “extreme sports” that a human can become devoted to.

What kinds of things are you doing to train?

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Very much like the extreme sport, loving the excitements of course!!! effortless and that is all it will take.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

I agree here with Bill. The words Enlightenment and awakening are not spiritual technical terms, they are modern European terms.

Though in metaphysics the term light and awareness [ awakening[] are very important, and have to do with seeing reality as it is based on “light”.as well as what we can see.

Light. that which dispels darkness [density] or the veils that prevent light from coming forth and allowing us to see reality and judge it accordingly because the light allows us to see what is there in the space of reality.

Awareness[ awakening] is being able to have no limit in your sight according to geography. That's why Buddha could see around the corner as well as the planet Jupiter if he wanted to!

So enlightenment is light spreading forth in your consciousness that allows one to see reality as it is.

Awakening [awareness] is the reality that our consciousness has no limit in what it can

See

That's why when Buddha was asked after he gained enlightenment:

Are you god?

Are you an angel?

Are you a man?

Buddha said

I am neither

I am awake!

Re: How do you judge awakening?

This is a fantastic thread. A bit like blind men discussing colours. It cracks me up.

I tell you something. Don't judge awakening. There is no need to judge it. You will not know what it is until you experience it yourself. Different traditions give you a different path, but the ultimate experience is always your own. When you're enlightened, you will know it.

To find out if somebody else is enlightened, you will not know either. You can never tell. But you can very well say if somebody is not enlightened. Most people who say they are, are usually not enlightened. They want you to join their following. And the question about how you can possibly know if someone is enlightened….do you ask it to protect yourself from the commercial liars or do you need someone to look up to, a possible guru? Different motivations for the same question. Now you can ask yourself why somebody would call his magazine “What Is Enlightenment”.

Imagine the discussion:

A: “How do I know if somebody is enlightened? And how do I know if I am enlightened?”
B: “You will know it when you see it and when you are in the state of enlightenment yourself. Occasional glimpses mean progress on your path, they are like traffic lights at night. I can help you find the next light, but you have to walk the path and don't be afraid of the dark.”

Would you say, these words might come from an enlightened person?
Now imagine the different perspective:

A: “How do I know if somebody is enlightened? And how do I know if I am enlightened?”
B: “If you want to join my weekend class this upcoming Saturday, you might get a good answer for those questions. You understand, there is a small fee of 50 dollars, but the benefit is so much bigger. We will sit together and sacrifice tea and cookies on the altar after a long meditation and teching session, we will talk to each other and you can….” etc.

Would you say, these words might come from an enlightened person?
How do you judge awakening…

Best wishes

Re: How do you judge awakening?

I think you're being very discerning, Chrysalis, and coming up with some excellent tools for making effective judgements.

Do they ask for money? Do they seem to want money? Are they living a rich lifestyle?

Do they ask for followers? Do they seem to want followers? Do they allow followers to follow them and attend to them?

Good questions that definitely belong in the judement toolbox.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Bill,

these questions need to be re-assessed in the individual case.

Do they ask for money, do they want money? The Dalai Lama travels around the world. Somebody pays for it. Somebody must pay for it. Of course they need to make some money to cover their needs in order to be beneficial for humanity. Something we should be aware of.

Do they ask for followers, do they want followers? Yes. If their path is useful for the happiness, peace and development of society, of course they want followers. So there you have compassion as the motivation.

In either case we need to see what is in front of us. You can judge the first one as being a commercial liar. You can judge the second one as somebody with an agenda. In both cases you wouldn't be anywhere near the truth. In my last comment I gave two examples of a dialogue, but I did not say if the first or the second person might be enlightened. I asked you if you think the answer might have been given by an enlightened person.

Only we can judge individually if somebody is enlightened. But we can only judge it if we are developed enough ourselves. Imagine a young 16 year old girl who is excited about spirituality, who would easily be impressed by a commercial liar. She would defend him, she would tell us we misjudge him, he is all he says and more. But also imagine somebody sceptical, a 35 year old man, who has spent all his life in research, in examination, maybe at a university. He could sit right in front of the Buddha himself and would not accept it. He would question and investigate to prove that there is nothing like enlightenment. You could say, the concept of enlightenment is hidden esoteric knowledge. It is hidden as long as we are not ready to see it.

Best wishes

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Cultural set is something else that needs to be taken into account.

“Cultural set” refers to the cultural references and preferences that each of us have, that come from our path thru life, in which each of us absorbs ideas and words and influences and worldviews from books and friends and experiences.

Everybody has their own unique culture set, and it shapes the way we view the world.

And we all bring a slighly different worldview to the table.

To give you an example of differing cultural sets, if you had asked me to come up with a list of people who might be “enlightened”, it would never have occured to me to put the Dalai Lama on it.

Because I see him as a political figure, a kind of pope, I wouldn't say one needed to apply questions of money or followers to his situation. He's a fine man, very well educated, doing as good of a job as he can to care for his people.

I understand, a lot of people do see him as a mythic figure of enlightenment. But that's not part of my culture set. I see him as part of a category of religious personages, like the Pope, the Imams, charismatic preachers, and the like.

Michael's original formula represents another culture set, Zak's sufism and metaphysics yet another.

So, one of the things I think we need to keep in mind is that different culture sets have different preferences and ideas and words, and try to figure out how to understand each other's cultures.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

On the path of changing the world, shouldn't we keep culture but eliminate culture set? I think an open minded person, a free thinker, will overcome culture set naturally during the first half of life. If you do so, you absorb much more, you learn more, and you judge less. You would be surprised what you get to see (and feel) if you remove your culture set tunnel vision. Mind you, here on Zaadz I would even expect people to do that. As a result, we don't read posts like “to some he might be a mythic figure but to me he's a political person”. Then, for example, we don't define ourselves as political persons anymore, so we are able to understand something or somebody from different angles, more angles than one. But again, as I said earlier in a different context, one must be ready for it first.

Best wishes

Re: How do you judge awakening?

I concur with all Chrysalis said, well done my friend. And I love this ”Blind man discuss colors” it cracks me up too, LOL!!! Until anyone attain Enlightment or experience Awakening directly do not speak as if you know about them, they are way over your head.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Transcending culture set is one of the most difficult things a person can try to do. Typically, the final releasing of culture set is among the last things that happen in the process of self-development.

People often say and think they have freed themselves from culture set, then turn right around and demonstrate that they are still inside their own culture set.

I would say it's more useful to practice awareness of culture sets, and to learn to translate the preconceptions of culture sets back and forth, something like learning to translate languages.

Because culture set's serve a very important purpose, they are a big part of what makes us humans.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

First of all, I agree that actual actions are more valuable proof then any mind-made story.

Thus I think that your equation is actually a bit of weird mambo-jumpo, but hey, that is my opinion.

It is like this, I don't think God still exists. Though in plausibility, as I look at science today, it is most logical that God created the universe. But then he will only have lived for 10^-34 seconds. From which after we can basicly explain all principles of our existence. But hey, 10^-34 is still about 10^8 moments of time! In that he must have created all of our known laws of nature and all of its constants. Quite the achievement though!

Consciousness… Well, we it is there, but what is needed to excell it? Doubt. Something alive at least, so we ponder. It seems illogical that a rock could have a choice. Light, matter, distance, time, and everything else, besides quantities. Can all be expressed in forms of energy, and hence choice. So I would change you formular (including god) to this:

                                          /         Choice (consciousness)    <-  \
God -(R.I.P)–>              |                                                                 |

                                         \ _ – >   Energy                                   /

It is only Irony science is only beginning to explore this Choice thingy…

And I also do not agree that this world would 'Suck'
Because no matter how much trouble it might give me. Or how deluded my view of it can be considered by others sometimes. And no matter how much joy I get from living it.
It is always great. Vivid and diverse as is every new perception I get. And every single one is Unique on its own, every moment.
Objectivity is a choice which is made available out of experience.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Some believe ultimately choice is a delusion.

Does a Leaf have a choice not to shake in the wind?

Re: How do you judge awakening?

I am not a leaf.
B.B.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Okay, you wish to be literal

How's this:

Does a man have a choice not to shake in a Hurricane, or a Tornado?

Once his ass gets caught in it!

Re: How do you judge awakening?

I make choices,one of which is to not stand in a hurricane or a tornado.
B.B

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Funny, hahaha!!! what Zak means is can you stop shaking if your body has involunteering shake, like great fear or cold.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

“some believe that ultimately choice is a delusion”
How so?
B.B.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

choice is a delusion

Zak, I'm curious to see if you can explain the theory without collapsing into your culture set.

I think the choice of the word “delusion” is a bit inflammatory. But you do enjoy being inflammatory. ;-}

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Oh you've noticed that.

I challenge and always in doing that give TRUE esoteric knowledge to others, if they can:

IGNORE MY APPEARANCE AND TAKE WHAT IS IN MY HAND!

Anyway to the point of your question:

Essentially even though we can gain control to a degree over our own destiny- by great effort, we still have to do things that as ALL metaphysical paths tell us, that are against our learned grain. Therefore it is clear to me we don't have very little control over anything. To gain control we have to in a sense loose control. That's the irony of this.

Buddha says learn the Dharma.

Muhammad says: Submit to the universal law

Jesus Says: Learn to love

Etc etc

There is very little proof other than wistful thinking, and people who live by platitudes, not truth,  that we have EVER been independent, and really free to make any intellegent choices.

Look at us as children: we are 100 percent dependant on whether our parents are crazy or not, whether we will have a good life or end up like Jeffery Dahmer. That of course is an extreme example but I could offer in between states also.

In short in my view we have to earn freedom, and the great mystery of that is that you earn freedom by becoming a slave in a sense. And real choice is the attribute of true freedom, somthing very few really have, in my opinion.

They think they have free choice, only they dont understand they have been indoctrinated long before thier ” choice” that will determind in facrt thier choice.

A great Sufi once said one goal of the Sufi is to become

“Master of the option”

That is real freedom

Zakariyya

Re: How do you judge awakening?

That's not a very good explantion, Zak, not if you want it to be understood by a person without some years of study in your esoteric culture set.

And, frankly, whenever I see someone capitalize the word TRUE, I am forced to suspect that TRUE ain't so much true, as it's a strongly held opinion.
 
Sometimes your fiery nature and speech gets in the way of the point you are trying to get across. Or so it seems to me.
 
Who said “master of the option”? That's a sweet line. Much like my theory of the “bubble of freedom”.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Who cares whether “my message” is heard. People don't listen anyway to good advice whether it's from John the Baptist the Fiery one, or the meek Jesus, they rejected both of them.

What makes you think people deserve the truth delivered to them with sweet words of beauty?

Those who hear my truth won't worry about my appearance; those that dont it gives them an excuse to reject it. So in a sense I am giving them what they want. another excuse to remain what they are. I don't live for 5 the avenue advertisers, there is enough of them. They tell you thier product is good, I tell you my product aint good!

When I posted my long essay about humans helping each other, many wrote that I inspired them. Many others were offended, so it's a wash, Now if I use the usual sweet platitudes I guarantee you I would get the same ratio of believers and disbelievers, so what does it matter my tone?

My TRUTH is only indication that unlike many others here [with all due respect] they know very little about metaphysics, where my studies are comprehensive, and with all humility folks here just don't have the information I have.

By the way Bill that's the real reason that people perceive I am fiery, they fear my knowledge, and hu I am!

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Well, as you know, according to the theories of no choice or limited choice, you can't help being fiery and not caring if you are understood, just like I can't help my characteristic patterns like arrogantly commenting on your fieriness and acting all know-it-all.

As for me, I'm a limited choice guy, I can't completely commit to the no choice option, which, of course, is something I have limited or no choice about. ;-}

It's probably because I can't handle the endless starkness of no choice. Such is the nature of the human animal.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Bill you aren't a know it all, you are one of the most objective seekers of truth here, I wouldn't apologize for that. And you have a perfect right to judge criticize or react to my posts.

But I will respond

. 

I want people to challenge me based on reason, logic and understanding. Not emotionalism, ignorance, faith and fear.

No Bill I want to be challenged, I would be a hypocrite if I went around challenging people and didn't expect the same.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

“I want people to challenge me based on reason, logic and understanding. Not emotionalism, ignorance, faith and fear. No Bill I want to be challenged, I would be a hypocrite if I went around challenging people and didn't expect the same.”

Well, Zakariyya, if you so love a challenge: tell me how exactly, with which action (action, no more picking and finding a definition or whatever) do you change the world for the better, making a difference in people's lives? How do you spread happiness and peace on earth, with your reason and logic, no emotion, no faith? This is no pod to seek the truth.

You seek arguments as you've already proven enough in the past? You are wrong  in this Pod, Zakariyya

“Who cares whether “my message” is heard. People don't listen anyway to good advice whether it's from John the Baptist the Fiery one, or the meek Jesus, they rejected both of them. What makes you think people deserve the truth delivered to them with sweet words of beauty?”

You want people to hear your truth, live or die, because you are the Revealer? You are wrong in this Pod, Zakariyya.

“My TRUTH is only indication that unlike many others here [with all due respect] they know very little about metaphysics, where my studies are comprehensive, and with all humility folks here just don't have the information I have.”

You love yourself amazingly. And you are wrong in this Pod, Zakariyya.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Zak loves himself amazingly…isn't really an insult or a bad thing.  And I totally understand the concept about Zak not being right for this POD if it's all about argument and chaos just for its own sake…but before we jump the gun, let's give Zak a chance to answer the question Chrysalis asks about what action would he suggest to fulfill the purpose of this pod.

Just my 2 cents,
Helen

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Amazing you would assume the worst of me because I am not “traditional”  and a little different, and willing to speak my mind!

As others also do here. I have been on numerous forums and “pods” and it is always noted that I am different.

So I am one who loves to argue, you conclude.

Interestingly on this particular pod the only controversy I have had is you folks calling me names!

I am an egoist, now you call me a narcissist [boy that's hard to spell]

Now any of you who are now jumping on my back, go back and read my posts about esoterica and you tell me that those posts aren't about this pod's or threads topic.

Other than the posts that people ask me personal questions as well as the ones by Others, whom also dealt with personal matters, not the objective subject at hand.

As for Esoteric knowledge my book “The Ellipse The Rise and Fall of the Human Soul

Secrets of the Cosmos” is filled with esoteric wisdom, and knowledge that I think people could benefit from.

I am not one who would hide knowledge, but I am also for freedom. We shouldn't force anything on anyone, because we think it is good for them.

As it is said in the Quran:

“There is no compulsion in religion”

As for this Pod I may give you people your wish and will consider leaving for I obviously am not welcome here. And great hostility is comming my way.

Then you can have your conformity.

But know this o you who judge me so harshly

Nothing will change that easily!

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Zak, Chrysalis …

This has gone on long enough.  I and the rest of the members of this pod have been very patient and tolerant.

No more.

If you cannot respect each other and the other members, then you must leave.  I am not going to force you out, but if this back-and-forth continues in the tone you're using, you leave us with no choice.

Zak, conformity is not the issue here and you know it.  We are all … every single one of us!!! … non-conformists.  You addressed these remarks to everyone.  Is this an accurate statement?  Are we all demanding conformity? 

Civility, respect, decorum and tolerance, yes, absolutely.  Who and where has conformity been demanded?

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Now for an objective brief word on this pods idea.

Funny this group you want to form I have been in many in the past like it.

Keith I have been in many organizations that wanted to move forward, and educate people about the “masters: that rule our thinking and bodies.

I am all for that battle, but believe it has to be done with intelligence not emotionalism.

That's not to be negative, but I think for your vision to take place you have to have leadership first, and foremost in my view.

I recently went through a very similar idea on another forum where eventually people started to dispute over the reality of trying to build a movement now, as averse to waiting for the majority to become educated.

That dispute turned into a vicious fight amongst the most outspoken members of the forum, thereby banishing those members, I was not one of the banished by the way, and ironically it was I who tried to bring unity to the bunch. If you don't believe me go to the break for news forum and read it for yourself.

Anyway on the positive side of this, I think there is a possibility that people can be educated with esoteric knowledge so they can upend the superficial party line of the oligarchs that rule.

Just keep in mind that the oligarchy wont sit ideally by and watch us remove their power.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Every time I come here all I see is angry posts.

I really cannot understand how a discussion can become so intensely nasty Knights POD.

Rules of Knights from Medieval Times

ALL KNIGHTS MUST UPHOLD THE VIRTUES OF
DIGNITY, LOYALTY, BROTHERHOOD, MILTE,
MAßE, EHRE AND COURAGE.

~ ~ ~ ~

A KNIGHT MUST RESPECT ALL THINGS AND BEINGS.


A KNIGHT MUST KNOW WHEN TO ACT,
WHEN TO CONSIDER AND WHEN TO EMPATHIZE

 KNIGHT MUST LEARN TO EXERCISE POWER IN A
DECISIVE, RESPONSIBLE AND JUST MANNER

What is awakening?

Whatever it is, I do not see it in angry posts….

And I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I think the tone is again going Deep 6 just like it did in the other thread.

I am ready to leave this place. Who needs anger here, I get enough in the real world..

Re: How do you judge awakening?

hi everyone,

man, this is a great thread. a topic like this brings out the passion in people, so let's all take a breather shall we? let's hold off on taking things personally, move on, and stick with the topic. also remember: the meaning of our communication is the response we get.

relax… breathe in… breathe out….

ok, now that we've cleared the air, allow me to get back on topic.

the original question is: How do you judge awakening?

obviously, we all have our own ideas on how to judge (i prefer to use the word evaluate) other people's “awakening.” i agree that action speaks louder than words. we're not mind readers, so most of the time, our only way of evaluating others is to look at their actions and see how they walk their talk.

however, i want to add another perspective here. whenever we evaluate others (awakened people or otherwise), i think it's helpful to remember that we're always part of the equation. whenever we evaluate other people's “awakening,” we project our own understanding of awakening (along with our bias and limitations). we project our own inadequacies as well as our own greatness. in short, our own evaluation will be dependent on our own understanding. take note that even so-called “enlightened” people don't agree with each other. so i rest my case.

another thing to remember is that “awakened” is too vague of a quality. people have multiple intelligences, some people maybe *more* “awakened” in the domain of science, business, spirituality, cooking, mathematics, etc. even the word spiritual conjures different definitions.

when the Buddha said that he's “awake,” he didn't stop there. he showed and taught a path that people can follow to develop into the mental state/stage that he was describing. i guess the more important question to ask is not whether a person is awakened or not, but instead, let's ask ourselves how deeply we understand the concept of “awakening” and whether we're ready to take the path. easier said than done of course. but that's my two cents for now.

thanks for giving me the opportunity to express my views here. i'm still learning.

~C

Re: How do you judge awakening?

also remember: the meaning of our communication is the response we get.

That's an excellent article, altho it's a little short on _how_ to do it, it does give a great model for what to use as a standard in communicating.

Well worth reading and thinking about.

And I would definitely include that principle in the types of esoteric training I recommend.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

We need to be first aware of who “I” am, whom I am looking at, and what my perspective is. I can only go as deep into another as I am into myself.

When I “judge”, I can go into what is judge-able; I can only be in awareness if I transcend the ego/small self level and operate from the level at which I and you are two sides of one.

Re: How do you judge awakening?

“This question was asked by by Meenakshi on another thread”

Could you give the link for this, Michael? I didn't even know this thread mentioned this till clicking on Recent Posts the other day!!!

Re: How do you judge awakening?

You do not judge, you just KNOW beyond any shred of doubt, uncertainity, stress and limitation that at the deepest primordial level you are fully awake, totally free and without any limitation and have always been so. This temporal conditioned limited finite reality of samsara is only a projection from that infinite timeless state of profound peace, pure joy and bliss. It is our birthright and ultimate destiny.

Many blessings
Mita

Re: How do you judge awakening?

Actually, there are several related questions here.

What kind of awakening? Awakening to what?

Mita described spiritual awakening–the ultimate in awakening.

But at various stages of our journey as spiritual beings with a mission in the material universe, lesser type of awakenings are called for.

Like awakening to the fact that we are really controlled and shackled by programmes implanted in our minds during the first twenty years of our incarnation. Or to the fact that money need not be scarce since it can be created out of nothing. As a consequence, anything that is physically possible and socially necessary and useful, can be made financially possible.

The question may arise whether discussing such mundane an materialistic versions of “awakening” is appropriate in the context of esoterics and spirituality in general.

My conviction is that it certainly is appropriate if we allow that esoterics includes a belief that there is a Divine Plan in the process of unfolding, and that Plan involves the human kingdom.

Personally, I find it supporting to know that there are people like Mita, fully committed to spiritual awakening and, at the same time, aware of the less “glamorous need” to spread knowledge and enlightenment about the importance of monetary reform.