Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tuan,

if we agree on the definition (which is the difficult part), we could say that good means to be gentle, kind and compassionate. Bad means to carry harmful emotions and actions.

First of all, I think that if we woud not believe that humanity is essentially good, therefore worth existing, we might as well all delete our profiles on Zaadz.

I think the problem is attachment to our needs. When we find something or somebody that makes us feel good, which is usually an external thing, we hold on to it and don't want to be separated from it anymore, because it makes us feel so good. We don't pay much attention to our inner self, our mind, and how it can make us feel good and how it actually makes us feel bad for all the grasping and wanting.
This happens locally and globally, in every individual, but also in the way nations and countries deal with each other.

But based on every individual's (babies, adults or even animals) need for happiness and the inherent potential for compassion, and the natural presumption that good actions and emotions make us happier when bad actions and emotions are harmful, I can only come to the conclusion that our natural space to exist is to be good.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

By the way, here is the full blog post that Tuan refered to, in case anyone feels like having a look, including the comments below:

http://chrysalis78.zaadz.com/blog/2007/8/human_beings_are_essentially_good

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

This is a good question. It is really part of the great debate about “human nature”.

I would like to know the assumptions that underlay the view of the person who put up the that contrary post.

It does make me uncomfortable because its smacks of the “original sin” idea in the Catholic creed.

It also implies that we are the product of socialisation; so the individual is subordinate to the group/society.

I would also like a thread for a similar but more political view to be explored.
The saying goes Men are born free but are everywhere in chains.
Are we born free to be enchained by society?

PS. I have seen the discussion on Chrysalis' blog but have not had time to read it properly

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Janos,

sorry to make you uncomfortable. Well…maybe not, because when we feel uncomfortable, but we're still open, we often start to think and shift our perspective a little.

The assumptions or premises are easy. In the beginning we share love with our mother. Somebody said, it is just the bad baby trying to fulfill his needs. But I think it is love. Somebody could of course talk about hormones and instincts here. But if the mother would not have the love and compassion to care for the baby, it would not survive. My assumption is that mother and baby share love and compassion.

From the Buddhist point of view, a sense of “I” and “Me” develops, and the outside world becomes separate. This “I” or “Me” provides us with a sense of being important, being individual and deserving to have our needs met and fulfilled. Here is where things usually go wrong. This sense of self is the reason for anger, disappointment, greed….all sorts of emotions, which arise because our needs are not met. We don't get what we want, we want what we can't get. This is true for material needs and emotional needs. We have a false sense of grasping and clinging. But I want to emphasise, even in this very negative way we only express our wish to be happy. The mistake is to want temporary pleasure instead of understanding happiness.

The next step would be to acknowledge our human intelligence. We are able to examine inside ourselves which effect different emotions have on us and on others, long term and short term. And when we are honest with ourselves, we want to feel good. Anger, hatred or greed do not make us feel good. We know that. Being loved makes us feel good, being appreciated and treated kindly makes us feel good. A simple smile does.
The important detail now is to realise that we all are the same in this way, despite culture, nationality or upbringing. Religion, spirituality or skin colour do not change the fact that we only want to be loved. This is my assumption.

The destruction of resources, the killings and really terrible things happening in the world, they have to stop, they are unacceptable. But still, essentially I believe they are misguided and ill ways of human beings trying to become happy, trying to improve their personal situation. They have the absolutely wrong perception that they could have fun or do something positive for their country if they kill somebody. This “I” or “Me” that I mentioned causes the problems.
You could say that a very cruel, very horrible person cannot be essentially good. How can those be essentially good who are raping and killing, torturing and breaking so many people in this world. But still we can also say, under different circumstances and in a different environment, this person might have become a doctor or a poet. But for a very sad reason this person learned that his comrades look up to him and appreciate him more if he lives on negative emotions all the time. I think it is important to understand the reasons. As soon as we see that cruelty comes from disappointments of “I” or “Me” or a misperception of what makes us feel happy, we can develop compassion so easily.

You suggest that the individual might be subordinate to group or society. In a sense you are right. But we are born with this “I” or “Me”. We are born with the potential to develop negative emotions. We get upset or angry without the influence of society. Negative emotions are solely based on ourselves. Society however decides if destructive behaviour is appreciated. It gets covered up with words of  business and success, but essentially it is the strong urge to be at the top. At the same time we find it very difficult to realise that impermanence is the inherent nature of the universe. Everything changes all the time. This is the reason why we have a great meal today and a party tomorrow. None of those experiences can give us permanent happiness, only temporary pleasure. If there are no boundaries at all, a human being could go as far as killing another to get this temporary pleasure. Drug addicts for example.

I believe we are born with the potential to go into either direction, positive or negative, good or bad. This is the way our “I” is. But if we get introduced at a young age to the quality of feeling good including a sense for community and how we are all interdependent, things could change. It is as simple as the question “Do you feel good when you're angry?”

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

I don't really agree with what ya'll are saying here. You talk about mothers and babies sharing some love and unexplainable compassion for each other…yeah tell that to the thousands of orphans. Don't get me wrong I believe it is better to orphan a child then to kill by way of abortion, but there are tons of merely abandoned childern in those homes. If we are not born 'bad' then why do we disobey/hit/backtalk/argue with our parents. I don't remember anyone ever teaching my niece how to be selfish. No, she learned that on her own. I completely see original sin to make more sense then anything. We are created in God's image therefore somewhere down in us we strive to be like Him. However, we fall short at birth when we are born into sin. Now is that sin passed down from our mothers and fathers? Quite possibly. Is it that we are able to think and just can't vocalize it, and we sin almost instantly in our own thoughts? Quite possibly. Either way that is the only way I see possible to explain the good and the bad people that flood our streets. Anyhow, I don't really get on here too often so if you respond to what I said you might tell me in an e-mail (Weirdo4Christ@aol.com">Weirdo4Christ@aol.com). Later everyone.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

As a christian, of course you have to disagree. But it is sad to see that you judge your own niece for trying herself out and testing her boundaries, based on her feeling of “I” and “Me”.

Orphans are just the same matter. Can you imagine that the feeling of “I” is so strong that a woman says “Sex is fun. I want fun. I want to feel good. I don't care enough to use a condom.” These things happen. And sometimes it is an accident. No sin, just an accident. The most compassionate decision a mother can make here is to say “I want my child to grow up in a happy family.” so the child gets adopted.

The vital point here is though: are we stuck in our religious boundaries so much that we judge the entire humankind based on this? If yes, it makes me very sad. Apart from having trust and faith in human nature, even non-religious examination should lead us to the conclusion that human beings are worth being cared for.
The “sinner” concept makes all of us unworthy victims and the best we can do is to confess, so we might be saved. Regardless of the possibility that this is true or not, it is not a very positive way to look at humanity or even your close family, and in saying that, it is a very limiting point of view.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

No problem Chrysalis,

I fully share your summary:

I believe we are born with the potential to go into either direction, positive or negative, good or bad. This is the way our “I” is. But if we get introduced at a young age to the quality of feeling good including a sense for community and how we are all interdependent, things could change. It is as simple as the question “Do you feel good when you're angry?”

I would only add that at present society is giving us lots of mixed messages. On the one hand we are encouraged to be part of the community, on the other society (certainly in the west) seems to say that life is a series of competitive encounters with our fellow human beings. I would also suggest that this latter message comes from the economic theories that are invading all parts of social consciousness.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Janos, I agree with you about the mixed messages. Here in the Western world, we emphasise business and family success, money, assets. But at the same time people see you as a very good person when you care for your neighbour, your friends or your planet. Compassion and kindness are rare, but when they appear, people see them as “good”.

Yet they struggle to base their lives on them, possibly because “if I care too much about others, I don't have enough for myself, so I have to think about myself first, then my family and then the rest”. The result is that “the rest” never comes because the struggle for the good of oneself and the family never ends.

And it never ends because it is based on material means and not on spiritual or emotional means. Maybe another point to discuss and maybe a reason why people intuitively think that economy has failed them, which you suggested when you said that the Economics section is not really popular.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

I would have to say that this, like so many other questions here, is destined to lead to controversy, for a couple of reasons: one is that it is so vague as to almost be trivial, another is that… well, damn, I can't remember the other reason I “had in mind” but let me amplify the first one.

Ah… here is the second one: The question sets up a framework: “Are children born either A or B” which forces the discussion into either/or… unless someone like Zazen kicks out the wall and opens the discussion up. This is a much more interesting problem than the first (which can be solved by asking oneself if the question is really worth posting or is it one that has been discussed to death in whole libraries of books already) because it gets to the heart of how we communicate in this form of forum. We can create an open discussion or a closed discussion just by how we word our questions. Frankly I think this is a question that does not need to be asked… or at least can be dealt with pretty simply and left behind before we get into a rancorous debate about original sin and what not.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Hi Curmudgeon,

The reason why I ask the question because I think it is a good source for discussion. Without discussion, what would this pod be? A dead one?

I value discussion because it helps to open my mind to a different perspective. For Example: my point of view on this subject is just like what Zazen posted, but reading what Chrysalis has to say, I can see the essential of his view and learn something new. When I read Chris~to~Fur post, I didn't like it, but it help me to see the opposite perspective, something I need to avoid.

Although this question is classic as it is, it never go anywhere. People still hang on to their belief. If we don't get it off our chest, it stays forever. I'm an open heart and open mind person. I love to read different point of views just for fun. Maybe and maybe one of, which is strong enough, will strike my ego and alter my perception. That happens quite a few times in my life already.

But it is all up to you to join in the discussion or not, but please do not try to convince anyone this is an invalid question. For me I know it is valid.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tuan,

I think it might be useful to consider if we sometimes argue because of how we ask a question, not because of the question itself or if it is valid. The question can be valid, but sometimes it seems to be difficult to ask openly. From this point of view, Curmudgeon can be right. There are different ways to ask, and the best question is one that does not suggest an answer.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Sorry, may be I misunderstanding his post, so what do I need to do to change the question? I didn't know that my question suggested the answer. Please correct me.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

LOL, Tuan, it is ok. It is about avoiding arguments, like Curmudgeon said. When you ask : “Is it A or B?”, you get people to argue “it is A” or “it is B” and maybe even a brand new C. You know, sometimes it works if you don't put the question into the subject of your first post, just a “title” like a title of a book. And then you present the idea and maybe one or two perspectives. Just to let people have a chance to give their opinion, not their answer A or B. But this is just a hint, because I know how you mean it and how you want to say it. But some people maybe dont.

Best wishes, my friend

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Curmudgeon,

you are right. Tuan is a good friend, and he surprised me with this discussion. Originally it was only a blog. That's pretty much it, so I just came and supported the thread, if you will. A debate about original sin would not be much of a debate anyway. The best you can say is “I respect your point of view, but I'm not catholic or even christian, so I don't believe in it.”

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

If I may add my 2 cents…

I believe in Original Innocence…I believe we were all born “good”…and young children love everyone, say the most profound God-connected things…all that other stuff is Learned.
Back talk and sass is Learned…kids are sponges, if you observe…they pick up things from other people, even just walking down the street hearing conversations…and then they test to see if it is acceptable in their world with parents.

Some kids are strong in their sense of self and goodness, even when others are falling into the abyss of badness and sin and disrespect…others go with peer pressure and status quo.

Essentially, there are no bad kids…just bad examples for them to follow.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Wow, I love this post. Well done Resurrected1, short but deep.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Thank You, Tuan…

I say this not only as a mother but as one of those strong children who stayed true to the path of Goodness…no matter what I see or hear. ;-)
Also as a very psychic child who had to “tone it down and shut it off” for lack of being understood…may we learn to cultivate and nurture our children's Gifts to the world…
One of New Born Innocence.  No, they do not know “the ways of the world”…not THIS world…please allow them to be the pure spirits they are, in Love.
Thank You ;-)

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

R1,

You'd have a hard time “proving” that children are good, “naturally”, which is to say without nurture. Raised by wolves they'd be… well, wolves on two feet. I say this as a parent of two and as the primary at-home person for one of them. Human beings are “good” and “bad”, or perhaps self-oriented and other-oriented, or however you want to put it. I happen to like the statement that “children are born” and leave it at that. The attempt to “prove” any other proposition is essentiallly a projection of our presuppositions on them.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

LOL…
Okay then,
Children Are Born….They are born Whole…

It's the Adults with the problems.
Children raised by wolves? Children in orphanages? Where are the Adults who made them?

We ought to be asking whether WE are Good or Bad…as We Adults are the ones Raising them.  Yeah, it really IS a projection of suppositions based on Ourselves and what we hold within.

Children learn from their environment…perhaps it's a lack of accountability and responsibility on the behalf of the parent. Yes, you all made them that way.  Hitler and Jesus both had parents.

And of course, it's a matter of your own perception and perspective…
I view the World and Children as wholly innocent and Lovely.
Others view the world from a personal perspective of sin/war/competition/greed and ingrain that in their children, the next generation…

The responsibility is ours.
Love (nurture)  is all we ever needed.
Will The Real Parents Please Stand Up?

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

LOL…
Okay then,
Children Are Born….They are born Whole…

It's the Adults with the problems.
Children raised by wolves? Children in orphanages? Where are the Adults who made them?

We ought to be asking whether WE are Good or Bad…as We Adults are the ones Raising them.  Yeah, it really IS a projection of suppositions based on Ourselves and what we hold within.

Children learn from their environment…perhaps it's a lack of accountability and responsibility on the behalf of the parent. Yes, you all made them that way.  Hitler and Jesus both had parents.

And of course, it's a matter of your own perception and perspective…
I view the World and Children as wholly innocent and Lovely.
Others view the world from a personal perspective of sin/war/competition/greed and ingrain that in their children, the next generation…

The responsibility is ours.
Love (nurture)  is all we ever needed.
Will The Real Parents Please Stand Up?

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Ariela,

I'm not a parent but I think you're making an important point here.

“Others view the world from a personal perspective of sin/war/competition/greed and ingrain that in their children, the next generation…”

How many generations does it take to change then? When I believe in original sin, when I believe in the fact that the world is a jungle, a war, a struggle for survival? When teachers believe the same… The place to be safe and secure would only be the inner core of your family, which means a dangerous tension between the individual and the outside world. I don't think this is the way to go, but as I am no parent, maybe you have more experience here. It seems to be a difficult issue, which might need to be discussed in the Education section of this Pod.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

“How many generations does it take to change then?”

This is a very serious question…

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

;-) How many generations does it take to change? Just One.
Me. or You. And even if you don't do it…I WILL.

If you believe in Original Sin…then your entire life is a struggle, a war, a jungle….(struggling against what is Natural) and you project that on the children…they in turn duplicate and relive what has been instilled int them, and this continues with each generation…until someone says, “Stop. It stops here. This thing stops with me.”
(Just think of Gossip!!! I do not indulge in it, nor do I pass on the insanity!!!)

It's simple really…examine what you believe in and why…and Change them if necessary.
I did.

As one candle lights another, so I have done with my children…and they share this Love's Light wherever they go (Just like Mommy ;-))

This is MY ripple effect. This is how I change the world.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Hi Curmudgeon,

I'm a father of two great children, one girl and one boy. I observed them very carefully as they are growing. Until they became 5 years old, they were the wonderful being, full of grace. They had a capacity for love beyond our understanding. Their innocent is so pure, they are the most harmless creatures on earth. Until they start to develop the sense of self, then it is the whole other story. This is my proof.

Does it work???

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tuan, thanks for getting this ball rolling! I find 2 premises in the question that are worth examining. One, that there is such a thing as good or bad, and two, a problem with using the tyranny of the OR, that children can only be born either all good OR all bad. Embrace the paradox, usually when you say OR, try AND instead!! (in which case…”Are children naturally born good and bad?” Simple answer…..yes!)

To the first, my favorite parable for good/bad comes from China. The story goes: an old man in a small village has one son and one horse to farm the land for their survival. The son takes the horse into town and loses the horse on the way. All the neighbors yell at the old man and tell him how bad that is, how he should punish his stupid son. The old man, who is wise, says “We'll see, We'll see”. And lo, in a few days the horse returns….with a mate! Now they have 2 horses. The neighbors say, “That is so good!”. The old man refrains “We'll see, we'll see”. And the next day, the son, who is the only one who can do all the hard manual labor, falls off the new horse while taming it and breaks his leg. You know what the neighbors say, and you know what the old man will say, right? But the following day the army comes through the village looking for conscripts for a brutal war, in which the son would most likely die, and certainly while gone the old man would have nobody. But since the son has a broken leg the army does not take him! So, in my view, and in my own experience, I have seen that there really is no good or bad, there are only projections and judgments that there is good or bad. If there is a loving and just God, which I believe there is, only good can exist. It is our limited frame of reference that makes it seem that something is bad.

Thus, as to whether children are good or bad, they/we are ultimately good of course. We are born as close to God in our heart and mind as is possible, the only “bad” we carry in is our karma. Then through experience we grow apart…this separation from God is what is called sin. Unfortunately, this word is so loaded as to be almost impossible to use. So, are we born with sin? Yes, because we have lived many, many lifetimes and we have our karma to work out. Half the planet “believes” in reincarnation, and that includes Christians mystics like myself. Of course, unless/until you have a past life experience or an intuition that you've been here before, then you will doubt this. The important point is that our choices (whether in this or previous lifetimes) can separate us from God, because we have the powerful and beautiful gift of free will.

So, my belief and experience is that we have karma to work out, and this will lead to life experiences that can be viewed as “good” or “bad”. But really, there is always the opportunity for personal growth in whatever comes my way, which is because God is loving and just. I will get back what I put out. What goes round, comes round, and so on.

May you see the justice and blessings in all your experiences,

Mike

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Hi Mike,

The point of “we are born with Sin because of our Karma” does make some sense but not all. Logically, what if I was a monk in my previous lives and I spent all my lives in a convent to pay for all my sin will I born Sin in this life? Of course this argument is just a hypothesis, who knows what we did in out past lives, so your point is taken.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

OK Mike, I read your post again. The theory of Original Sin did bug me. I quite agree with you on the definition ”separation from God is what is called sin”, I remember I posted that somewhere. But my take isn't the experiences that cause the separation, it is the knowledge or the mind that cause the separation.

But baby does not have that separation, all they have is heart, only when the baby gain the sense of self then the separation occurs. Therefore, children aren't born bad, they learn to be bad when they have the sense of self.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tuan, I quite agree with you, having 2 daughters myself! We are born full of love and potential, because we have the spark of God within our soul. That spark is the same in all of us, because God is immutable, one. AND, we are individuals with distinct souls and personalities. We all know of many situations where very different adults come from the same family, and that identical twins from the same family still have some differences.

I understand how the original sin idea is bothersome. I abandoned it along with mainline christianity in my teenage years (i.e. long ago!), and I think for good reason. Much in the dogma/doctrine bound religions has been warped. God is love, which is simple. Dogma and doctrine shouldn't be required; what is required is a teacher to show by example…as Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, and so many others have done. A real teacher can show us where we are separated, what we are doing and thinking that keep us from being connected to the Divine. A book can't do that, and most churches have hundreds or thousands of congregants, so even if the preacher/pastor/minister were enlightened (which is almost never the case), how could they personally teach all those people?

I still don't accept the idea of historical Adam and Eve (a post on evolution/creation is a whole other thing!). Rather, I find it easiest to think about my own “original” sin(s), that is - what thoughts, beliefs, and actions did/do I accept that separate me from being fully connected to God-consciousness?

And so I think you make an important point, an important statement, when you say the baby gains the sense of self and then separation occurs. IF we are all unique souls, individual manifestations of God (i.e. God's children), then the nature of that separation will develop according to that particular individual's soul. And that's where karma comes in, at least for me. My karma from past lives (i.e what I did, didn't do) determines what I will experience, what lessons I still have to learn. Because God is just and loving. God placed me in the right family, culture, social circles, etc. to have the possibility of learning those lessons and feeling remorse for past actions. For example, if I abandoned others in prior lives, I might be born an orphan or have my father leave when I was a child (which was the case). I can only tell you I can feel in my heart/soul the justice there; I had a tendency to abandon others before they could abandon me. Some will say that is because I am acting out what I was taught as a child, that my inner child “learned” abandonment. True, but I think/feel it also goes deeper. I got to experience it because it has been one of the things I have done in past lives, it is something that has kept me separated, because it is not loving, kind, or merciful to leave someone who needs me. I have felt the pain of it in this life, and I choose not to act that way from this point forward. That feels “good” to me!

Blessings to all of you who care about the nature of children and how they are raised….

Mike

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

This question, strangely enough, has been a large part of my philosophy for many years. And looking back on everyone else's posts, its funny, because I see pretty much the same thought processes that I went through in my life threaded out in this topic.

I work at Jump Planet, which is essentially an inflatable party center for kids. I've been working there for nearly a year now, and I've seen alot. I've seen everything from kids that are no more than a month old, to bridal showers, all in this one warehouse sized inflatable arena.
Everyday when I go to work, there is the potential to have a party filled with kids who are rotten, spoiled brats. But I've noticed, that more often, the case is that the potential for the party to be filled with innocent, fun loving kids whose only aim right now is to walk through that door and have tons of fun with their friends, that potential is much, much greater, and if I were to statistically work out what percentage of parties are like that, I'm sure I'd find the percentage of 'good' parties to be much, much higher than 'bad'. Now, from an experiment standpoint, there are many factors to consider, such as where I live. Its possible that because I live in a suburban area, there aren't as many rotten, spoiled kids. Its possible that my workplace seems to inherently attract only the 'good' kids. I'm not really making a scientific case.

All I know, is that at least once a day, I will meet a kid who will stay with me in my memory for months, possibly years. A kid, no older than three, who is so into life, so into their parents, so into the ground they're walking on, so into me, that I have no choice but to say “That child was born good.”

Theres just no way around it. And this happens to me every day I work there. So, when I ask myself, are children born good or bad, and I walk around those rides and see these children genuinely having fun, playing with everyone else like they were their best friend since the beginning, and giving me this look like, “We wish you could join us.” I cannot possibly believe that babies are born in sin, evil, or ill will. It is not possible for me. Its the choices their parents, and later on themselves, make that determines the lives they lead. Not their birth.


Wow, this is my first ever post here. Thanks for listening! ;)

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Thanks for your contribution Walter. My original post was dealing with human beings and that they are essentially good, which includes children, but somehow the discussion turned closer towards the children. I don't have children or deal with them a lot, so parents and caregivers for children are welcome to join the discussion, logically because the early stages of our lives determine if we end up expressing our need for appreciation and “fitting in” in positive or negative ways.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Well, it is pretty good for a first timer. You did it well Walter. I like your view; I too do recognize the innocent of children and how lovely they are, their heart is so pure. I often wish we adult can learn from them.

Thanks for joining us.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Spending time with children of all ages I am in favour of the possibility that we are all alike as human beings. Our personalities, wants and desires varying little across all cultures and built over time by cultural influences.

The key (in my experience) to discovering or uncovering the commonality lies in experiential education. People doing the same exercises in a safe environment can discover their individual uniqueness and their collective simularity.

If we were all born good perhaps there would be no wars
If we were all born bad perhaps there would be no us :-)

What if we are all born alike.
Learning beings, listening, feeling, experiencing, sensing our way forward.
Uniquely gifted, commonly challenged and simply born into different scenes of a great play.
?

What if we are all here to learn from one another about what works and what does not?
What if the only person we can change is ourselves?
What if the greatest gift we have is love and using it as a force for good the greatest lesson we have to learn?

I for one raise my glass to all of humanity in all its guises and to the work of those who fight for equality in all its forms.

:-)

Martin
xxx

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Can i add my two cents here? okay, i'm going to anyway and if ya'all get annoyed with me, well, that's your issue!lol
I'm the dad of two awesome kids so i think i can speak on this issue if even a little bit. I think babies are born into this world 'neutral', sort of like a blank hard drive. Everything from then on is a combination of genetics and environment. You can fill the hard drive with love and compassion or teach it to be a killer by 7…………..
But i would agree that the question is old and the results of that question framed in the 'or' manner has led to foundational beliefs in political conservatism and liberalism. The tradition liberal take being that children are born good and the traditional conservative take is that children are born little savages that need all kinds of social laws to keep them in line.
I'd agree that i think we need to re-ask the question and come to a brand new understanding that doesn't end up in polarized politics………
I'm i being non-sensical again?
Peace-out, Andrew……

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Who could possibly get annoyed with your logic Andrew?

If we re-position our stance in asking the question it makes for interesting possibilities.

Are all human beings born with a potential for kindness?
Are all human beings born with a potential for limiting self beliefs?
Are all children both good and bad?
Are all children both bad and good?
Am I good or bad?
Was I born naturally good or bad?
Have I the potential for kindness and/or limiting self beliefs?

My two children, like yours, give me a new take on the question, they were 10 years in the waiting now  a further decade plus, nearing teenage. When they were born the sunlight shone from some amazing places :-)
Now I see myself reflected and amplified through them :-(

So, regardless of labeling others as good or bad it comes back to me to be the change I wish to see in the world, and it's so frustratingly empowering.

Mx

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

I have never met a bad child.I have met many who born through circumstance do everthing they can to survive.
Nature versus nuture this debate which has gone on forever,I remeber it being highly volatile when I was in college,I think because instead of seperating good from bad acts we label people as good or bad instead.
When I held my children for the first time there was this overwhelming sense of wanting to protect them.I still hold my oldest in my arms and he is 23yrs.What I do know is when a child is not loved or protected something happens to them,they come into this world with needs that must be met and it throws the order of things out when those needs are not met.
No child is bad,but bad things can and do happen to children,and their challenge,which is great,is to reconnect to that part of them which needs to be cherished and let themselves be loved.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Good point B.B. it's always good to make a distinction between the behavior and the person. One of the first good parenting tips…..

Martin, we all have the potential for good and bad behavior; but i'd agree, it's all about potential. Now how do we create a world that offers the maximum amount of potential to the masses instead of the few. In Wilber-speak, i would argue that we are not going to be very effective if we just focus on upper-left (interior of the individual) quadrant. To solve these issues is going to take a full-quadrant, full spectrum solution…..imho….

Cool discussion, Andrew…

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Yep, totally agreeing with you here again, sorry :-)

Full spectrum consciousness is required and this link discusses the issue at an organisational level (in alignment with your suggestion that we looked beyond our internal interventions)

If you dig through the Values Centre site you'll find a page where Richard explains his theory. It's based on deep experiential, practical science too across public, private and voluntary organisations so it's not merely a theory.

Based on Maslow's hierarchy the model expands out to offere 7 levels of consciousness.

When we're all working at this level we're out of the current paradigm and into our potential big time.

Rather than good or bad, right or wrong Richard uses a useful phrase to label certain behaviour … potentially limiting … interesting isn't it??!!

I'm meeting Richards head of European Operations over the next week or so, I'll report back on some of the outstanding potential already reached by the pioneers of possibility who pave the way for the rest of us to follow in relative safety.

;-)

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Okay Martin, i have to confess that i gave away all my three piece suits in 1979 to go and count leaves on my Ficus tree for many many years!lol

And i now know thanks to Julian that Mr. Smith in the Matrix (with that lovely three piece suit) is just a projection of my own shadow….lol

Love Maslow- And as much as it pains me to admit it: That Richard guy is talkin' some sensible !@#$!!!! lol

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Zazen,

what do you think about the idea of going one step further and saying: children are born with the inherent wish and need to be happy, to be free from harm and without the wish to harm anyone else, not even the idea of it. And making the next step ahead, can we say that this rather instinctive state is our natural state, whereas negative emotions and actions are not? And can we then say that we maintain this throughout our lives, if we act on it or not? The conclusion would be that human beings are inherently good.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Man is basically good.

When the zygote in the sperm meets the egg there is pain and it is recorded in the cells.  At birth it is better to be silent around the mother during delivery as both she and the baby receive and have recorded into the unconscious all the words said at that time.  Nurturing and loving a child and helping them as they develop all of their perceptions and giving the proper nutrition all contribute to health and well being of children and adults.  I work and help erase those recordings and know them to be real and see the relief once they are analytical about this.  It is good not to have attempted abortions as all of that is recorded in the embryo.

We must love and forward the human race as we will be back.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

I am fully with ~Kes on this, Man is basically good.

To my simple mind, the experiential proof that we have an intense natural need and desire to be liked and accepted is sufficient.

As a more sophisticated argument, I go with Douglas McGregor's ”Theory Y” of human nature.

But I have to plug my basic passion as well here to tie an abstract argument to concrete reality: A universal guaranteed basic Citizens Income does not represent a moral hazard to a healty human being. On the contrary, it is in the best interest of society to materially support each individual to unfold their innate gifts and talents whether these offerings are “marketalbe” or not. See the relevant discussion.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Although, I post the question but I pretty much have my own answer. I would like to contribute my 2 pennies on this subject.

For years I was torn between Good and Bad. I grew up as a Buddhist, the Buddhist believe we were born good but suffer and then when my family became Christian that when I was introduced to the Original Sin concept. Since then the confusion started. I lived with that debate for a number of years.

Then one day when I first held my baby girl in my arms, the debate seized. I knew for sure who we are.

We were born pure, full of heart. We had an unlimited capacity for love. This energy affect everyone surround us.

Good or bad is an opinion. It does not come from us, it come from an observer. We do not know what is good or bad when we were just a small child. The whole life is just the experiences. Our actions are just a series of experiences. Some are pleasure and some are not. Then we hear the adult say “no, it's bad” or “yes, that's good” that when we start to label our actions or experiences. I remembered when my child said the first word “bad” when she was 4 years old. Before that her innocence was beyond my understanding.

Good or bad is just a series of judgement. It does not come from our heart, it come from our mind. My finding return me to be Buddhist again (this statement is not to offend any Christian).

Although I'm not a Christian anymore but I have to agree with Jesus when he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” Matthew 18:3. Our future depend on our heart, the pure heart of a child.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Since I am a new arrival, and crave your acceptance AND attention.  I must say that children (human children) are born mostly purplish and augment their shade based upon their parents' and social group's expectations.
The binary 'good|bad' dichotomy is a result of relativity of outlook.  Children have only 2 fears at birth, falling and loud noises.  Everything else about their personality is pretty much taught or encouraged, and then labeled “good” of “bad” based on the place the observer is standing and came from. 
There is no such thing as evil (or bad), any more than there is a dark switch on the wall in your house.  You really can not define good or bad objectively, so the concepts are useless. 

-the little cow
  Wolf Halton

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

You? Crave attention? : P

Not sure I buy that one, mr. wolf. : D But I suppose it could be true.

Everything you say, I agree with.

Here’s your attention…

Wolf! how do I love thee? let me count the ways
Those ridiculous ten foot monstrocities you tend to carry you used fairly well, I must say.
always had a good eye on ya, even though occasionally, it was but one.
fairly good cook, musician, etc.

wolf! he’s the cheese. the little cow! hell yeah.