Gaia: Kosmic Blogging 101 - Kosmic Blogging Injunctions - (Un)conditional Love ?

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://kronos.gaia.com — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:25:03 GMT

Hi, I have just found this blogg, and only been on zaadz for a few days so do not fully understand the etiquette or processes. Nor have I had the time to follow all these discussions fully, so apologies for this fact. I add the following comments simply because Cohens quote coincidentally was sent to me a couple of days ago. So here goes:

Diana asked:
"It's true that we use the words unconditional love much too often without really thinking about it. But, aren't we imposing too much when loving conditionally?"

I am always a little confused when I hear the phrase unconditional love.

For me, 'Love', whatever that is, can only be unconditional, anything else is simply a construct of the mind.

Cohen refers to things like "sin, need, and integrity" all mindful constructs. He also says that unconditional love has no value - another construct. So really irrespective of what opinion anyone has of 'conditional' or 'uncondirtional' love, the important question for me is "What value does our mind have in the process of our conscious evolution?

The universe we live in, and are an intrinsic part of, is profoundly amazing. In my experience I have come to recognise that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING has immense value in the evolution of consciousness and co-creation. It is not possible for it to be any other way UNLESS YOU CHOOSE IT TO BE SO.

The Universe works in a structured way even when operating seemingly in a chaotic manner. The clearest understanding I have of how consciousness evolves, and where my mind fits into this structure, is through an ever present and ongoing dance involving The Holographic Triune and Natural Paradox.

I do sound as though I have swallowed a section from a bullsh**ter's dictionary, and apologise if this is so. However, I am a very simple, but practical bloke who used to own a construction company, which is definately all about things practical. So if you are interested, stay with me on this for a moment.

Natural paradox occurs where some conflicting or opposite information, opinion or evidence is present . This is ALWAYS the case if we care to look. In any experience there is always a positive perspective and a negative one. The Yin and the Yang. We usually see the negative one fairly prominently. That's good. No, that is actually great! It is great because we are then in a better position to see what we do not want, and then what we do. This allows us to make a conscious choice to set about co-creating what we want through the power of deliberate intention. Without the negative, our awareness would not be so clear. The thought of conditionally loving is part of this process.

Problem is, often we have learned to get stuck in emotion, but that's another story.

In addition to the two perspectives; positive and negative there always exists a third one, the unseen; that one that people refer to as the 'Aha'. So here we have the first example of The Holographic Triune in action.

The most powerful working version of The Holographic Triune that each of us has as a PRACTICAL & USEABLE working tool to raise our consciousness, individually and collectively is simply the relationship between Logic, Emotion and Intution; between Mind, Heart and Soul.

I have probably written too much already, but if wish to consider more information about the Holographic Triune, look at some articles on my website http://www.senseable.co.uk/ under articles.

To conclude. If you want the universe to evolve through you, it has very little to do with the concept of conditional or unconditional love. I suggest it happens as a consequence of self - observation, refelection and conscious choice in what you think. It starts by acknowledging the conditions you impose on yourself and on others and in realising that you have never, ever in your life been wrong, been late, been judged by anyone nor have judged anyone else. Paradoxically, it accelerates by your becoming more and more judjemental not less so; for your judgement is your mirror that eables you to see, and begin to understand, the limiting subconscious beliefs you have inheirted. In that moment conscious co-creation gets to be very exciting, and the mind begins to play a less dominant and fearful role.

On that note I really must stop - I have a product to launch in four weeks.

As I have said I've only just arrived on the scene so do please join my circle of friends - I would love to engage in conversations, help and support you in stepping towards your dream, and invite you to help me to create mine. In doing so, together we can demonstrate to ourselves, and the world at large that we should expect miracles.

LnL

Pete

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Mon, 21 May 2007 11:52:16 GMT

For me, Love is neither conditional or unconditional. It is as Steven
Harrison describes… an energy and the quantum potential of what is
next. I love that!

For me too, Synergyz!

Hurt, acceptance, sacrifice and transformation are all ok with me as long as I can maintain stability..

I feel refreshed reading your honesty about this. Yes, yes. And the mind is so tricky - in my experience. I 'think' I'm being open, loving, clear, etcetera, but if I really look deeper, mostly I'm simply engaged in another level of attempting to control my experience ( to feel safe...).

Elementstew -
The failure to distinguish pre-judgment from judgment is highly disfunctional, imo,
another new-age error. Judgement (rational discrimination, discernment)
is a virtue, not a vice.

Sadly it's not only the new age movement which has co-opted the connotations of the word 'judgement'. I have written at length about the positive, or rather, neutral facility of 'noticing', the value of simply having an informed opinion which is not biased towards 'right' or 'wrong'; about the value of discernment.

Retrospectively I can see I was in 'reaction' to being told that judgement is "bad". I wanted to believe that it was possible for me to simply 'see' without filters, I wanted to believe that I did not always view others, situations and things with glasses which divided everything into 'good' and 'bad' ( or somewhere inbetween).

Personally, I know maybe two people ( and I know a lot of very 'developed' people) who are truly able to see without personally conditioned and limiting ideas of what is right and wrong.

Rational discrimination is actually rather questionable in my view - how do you know that your 'rationality' is rational?

If, as Bruce Lipton suggests:

" the subconscious runs our biology from 95-99% of the day, Since we are generally unaware of our subconscious belief (hence the concept of “unconscious” processing), we rarely see that our own behavior is the sabotaging element we must face."

Then I suspect most of us are acting, thinking, making choices that have very little to do with being 'rational', we might think we are... but what informs that particular thought?

And, although I hesitate to raise this question here when it's fully explored in depth on the I-I pod and elsewhere - why the value biased emphasis on rational?

As Mushin ( a German ) has said, on this very subject: "The Germans pre WW2 were known to be among the most advanced nations philosophically and technologically. Many.. celebrated philosophers are German… now that didn't stop us from starting the most technologically advanced and rational war ever. No, reason is to be tempered by all kinds of 'frameworks'."

I"m very excited by Mushin and Helen's recent blogs, partly inspired by Thich Nhat Hanh's statement “The Next Buddha will be a collective."

They both seem to explore this issue of 'love' in a very wide and transformative vessel - opening my focus from the point of self, to what is between self and other, to an "the emergence of the phenomenon of collective intelligence " - I would suggest that this is an emergence of love itself - something new, including and surpassing all our former ideas and descriptions of love:

"an energy and the quantum potential of what is next.."

~ Sandra

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://synerjyz.gaia.com — Fri, 18 May 2007 13:28:13 GMT

Yes, the word judgement is often heard as a vice and indeed it can be use as a brick to close the mind behind a wall. and it is very powerful to discern and distinquish -we do that all the time, even inside the energy of love.

For me, Love is neither conditional or unconditional. It is as Steven Harrison describes... an energy and the quantum potential of what is next. I love that!

My response to love, my decisions around that energy, the nature of my participation with and control of love is often very conditional -my condition? Hurt, acceptance, sacrifice and transformation are all ok with me as long as I can maintain stability. (fat chance huh?) Security is what I control for most and Love's power to ...
"... destroy us and to create something entirely new from the ashes." is both what I yern for most and invite the least.

Unconditional love is the act of free fall into the pure power & energy of love ~
Conditional love is the act of falling with a parachute -my right hand firmly gripping the rip cord, discerning each deeper moment, looking for that tipping point moment to pull up and save myself from the ashes.

I think I'll pray for a good burning ~grin.
Synerjyz

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://elementstew.gaia.com — Thu, 17 May 2007 15:58:35 GMT

For the record, I'm in the pro-unconditional camp, but that's not why I now post.....or is it?

I'm responding to Sandra's use of the word judgment. The failure to distinguish pre-judgment from judgment is highly disfunctional, imo, another new-age error. Judgement (rational discrimination, discernment) is a virtue, not a vice.

Peace and Love

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Mon, 14 May 2007 11:46:39 GMT

Peggy, this warms my heart. And saddens me too, hearing that this was the 'one nice thing' your mother said. And I feel I understand - I have to dig around a bit to remember the nice things my mother has said to me, In fact I might even try to write a blog about her, in gratitude, not something that comes easily to me around my mother, and yet I know I would not be the person I am if it were not for her.

And yes, I really 'get' that there are so many people I love, that I do not always like their behaviour etc. And many people I don't want to spend time with, but I still feel what I call 'love' for.

Lovely definition of unconditional love actually. Perhaps the unconditional part is for us - that we do not pretend to 'like' everything about someone, that we take the risk to share our experience of what they do, that we are 'straight' and unconditional in our relationships. I've had some very 'hard' feedback by a teacher similar to Andrew Cohen, and for me, it was the most loving thing. Others watching thought I'd be flattened, broken, but I needed to hear those things, and I could feel that the things were said came from a place of truth, not of judgment.

Love to you, dear Peggy,

Sandra

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Sat, 12 May 2007 01:59:54 GMT

Sandra,

The quote takes me back in time to the one nice thing my mother said to me, she said, I do not like some of the things about you... or things that you do... but I want you to know, always, that I love you.

Of course it took yearsssssss for me to figure that one out.... But it makes so much sense to me.... I may, and at times do, really dislike certain things & beliefs my friends live by, and yet I do love them dearly.....

So there you go........... Isn't that unconditional love? loving the essense of the person & letting the dirt fall away.... I hope they do as much for me:):)
PJ

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://coolmel.gaia.com — Mon, 07 May 2007 15:45:25 GMT

wow! i love that quote! thanks for that.

and yeah, the Rule of 150 is no more. gah! what was i thinking :)

~C

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Sun, 06 May 2007 14:13:27 GMT

Oh God, well there sure must be some unconditional Love floating around because I suddenly saw the JOIN NOW button on this pod. I pressed it, and it worked!! I

'd been wanting to be part of this pod but discovered it too late, and now the Rule of 150 seems to be ~~crossed out.~~

Amen and thank you Jesus.

Okay. Back to unconditional love.

people/mystics who have access to this realm/stage/state of consciousness are the only ones who can authentically declare that they love unconditionally.

I tend to agree with you, dear C4. (I always have a little involuntary cringe when my mother tells me she loves me unconditionally...)

I'm on a Steven Harrison rant right now.

He doesn't specifically talk about unconditional love ( well not in what I've read of his work) but he does talk at length about love, and what that 'really' is - which is I expect, the same as unconditional love. For me it's simply not love at all if there are conditions. It's just needing something.

Steven says (in What's Next After Now):

"The energy of love moves through each of our lives. This is not a romantic quality, nor is it the spiritual ideal. t, it is an energy that touche us deeply and connects us fundamentally to those we meet. It is an energy that we cannot fully understand or integrate from the structures of the mind and emotion we inhabit. The evidence of the power of this energy is that it can literally shatter the structures of our life at any moment. It is this shattering that the structures of our mind and emotions seek to avoid...

... The movement of love is the movement of transformation, and fair warning to anyone who enters that space that we will lose everything, even what we don't know we have to lose. Love comes to destroy us and to create something entirely new from the ashes. Love is the expression of any who dare to meet in that energy, a whole heart forged from a shattered heart. Love includes all the heart, the beloved, the romantic, the broken, the devastated and the quantum potential of what is next..."

dare I say.. with love,
Sandra

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://peacemonger.gaia.com — Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:20:18 GMT

"The only individual who wants or needs to be loved unconditionally is a sinner who has absolutely no intention of repenting!"

I get the gist of the message, but I had a laugh at this particular sentence. Sounds like the messenger might have some ego or other issues around it (just an intuition I have.)

I have had the experience of loving unconditionally and found it to be a freeing, wonderfully healing experience (it ultimately is for the one doing the unconditional loving.) Regardless of what appearances may be to the contrary, it is also a freeing, wonderfully healing experience for 'other' as well (whether it is seen or acknowledged at the time is of no consequence.

Ultimately, it matters not what AC or anyone else (including me) thinks or says about loving unconditionally. It's ALL Love. It is the pesky little human mind/ego that wants to delineate Love into types of love and rationalize or decide who does or does not 'deserve' a particular "type" of love.

~ mu

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:21:10 GMT

Hello,

I think that the problem is that we are trying to hard to analyse said quote below.

What unconditional love, to me, means, is the ability of the person to hold love and compassion for all - desptie circumstances/situations.

Yoga (and others) teach us that we must bless-love all people and feel compassion for those who may be, (at the risk of sounding superior, don't mean to - spiritually challenged. Unconditional love is for all beings, and especially for those who need it the most - and goes beyond the single relationships.

It does imply or mean though, that we, as individuals, allow ourselves to be walked on/over by others. We must keep ourselves strong spritiually, emotionally and pyhysically in, keep aware of our expectations, perceptions - mis-perceptions, and attachments, in order to keep our hearts open to others. This is where the real strength of our divinity lies.

Conditional love is quite frankly twisted, and therefore can not be love.

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://my-head.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:17:29 GMT

I have only today - 28th March 2007 - joined this zPod - so come belatedly to the discussion despite having posted my own views on Don't KILL the messenger.

I have landed here so to speak - as a result of following through on the concept of integral parenting - & felt that I should make comment accordingly.

It was Diana who started the thread & I believe the ONE who has provided the most succinct answer to her own question namely that - (Un)conditional Love means to be big enough to give without expectation or attachment but also to have the awareness to improve our lives and our communities - always considering that the "U" in (Un) means YOU

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://CalmEagle.gaia.com — Mon, 29 May 2006 00:28:03 GMT

"Backquotes Are Soft" ....from the link u sent...sounds like a page in the massage therapist manual...

OK C4Chaos, see what i mean?

Excruciatingly geeky indecipherableness....to this old seahorse.

:o)

CalmEagle

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://swan2u2006.gaia.com — Sat, 27 May 2006 19:48:20 GMT

Well, I just invited Ken Wilber to join the discussion since Andrew Cohen hasn't joined Zaadz yet! Should be a very interesting discussion indeed if he joins in as well!

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://soulseasons.gaia.com — Sat, 27 May 2006 07:58:43 GMT

I just read quite a few of your responses to this quote, and hey..... love 'im or 'ate 'im.... the man got you all thinking!!

I can relate to this tendency to be repulsed by the new-agey lovey-dovey this and that, sometimes its like handing someone a bar of chocolate just after they've vomited. I think many people make an "idea" of love and live according to the idea rather than the reality (myself included). Love, to me, is often nothing more than sincere attention. "Unconditional love" as I see it is making an effort to be present, to really listen to someone and hear their genione needs.

I don't think anyone would deny that walking an authentic path takes hard work. But to say unconditional love is unnecessary and undesirable is like saying that you can be born without your mother's uterus. It remains to be a foundation in development, even science is beginning to demonstrate this.

Ideally, one may grow to a point where it is so integrated into the fabric of being that it is no longer perceived as an active principle ie something that needs maintenence. But you have to walk before you can run. If I have any conception of a spiritual leader, or any leader for that matter, it is one who can relate compasstionately to many levels of development in his "pupils".

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://diana.gaia.com — Fri, 26 May 2006 06:51:11 GMT

I see that things can get a bit confusing when you consider conditional and unconditional love – look at the length of this thread!!!

In my eyes, the idea of unconditional love comes from the non attachment to the love that we share. It means to be big enough to give without expectation or attachment but also to have the awareness to improve our lives and our communities. If we are definitely seeking for an ideal balance in our own lives then automatically we have an awareness of the pull towards perfection of all beings. We desire to have experiences that help us toward our own perfection. And having said that….after all, inner peace is not unconditional.

Thanks again for sharing all those wonderful points of view...it has been a pleasure to read them. Well I think I should convince Andrew Cohen to come over here and give him a chance to defend his own "quote". It's worth a try...

Diana

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://coolmel.gaia.com — Fri, 26 May 2006 00:54:49 GMT

LOL. i think i see your point now. cool analogy too.

sometimes i'm a bit slow you know ;)

peace, love, happiness, and Divine discontent,

~C (for Conditional Statements using Ruby)

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://CalmEagle.gaia.com — Thu, 25 May 2006 18:56:10 GMT

LOL my dear c4Chaos,

our conversations are akin to an elderly seahorse discussing key lime pie with a young male savannah rhino....they might respect each other because of having good manners, but will they ever connect? I see your point but do you see mine? My main point is that we should never think we know it all or grok it all or understand it all and no limits means just that, so evolution may occur in the direction GOD/UNIVERSE sees fit...
Love with conditions and without conditions,

CalmEagle

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://coolmel.gaia.com — Thu, 25 May 2006 16:53:51 GMT

interesting factoid, CalmEagle.

but you've just proven my point.

what happens after the four-minute-mile of love? the conditionality is the state during that four minutes of bliss. it's like saying i have uncondtional love within a four-minute window. um, that sounds conditional to me. or did i miss anything?

IMHO, we should stop seeking even the hundred-years of loving and just flow with eternal lovin'.

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://CalmEagle.gaia.com — Thu, 25 May 2006 16:36:51 GMT

C4Chaos posted
"We must forgive each other our arising, for our existence always torments others. The golden rule in the midst of this mutual misery has always been, not to do no harm, but as little as possible; and not to love one another, but as much as you can."
Excellent thought from KW. However I maintain that there is the four-minute-mile of love. By that I mean, for years and years no one thought a human could run a four minute mile. It was taken to be a physical impossibility, like walking on water or levitating. And then on May 6th, 1954, when Grandmama CalmEagle was just a wee fledgling chick, after a frustrating false start, Roger Bannister ran a mile in 3:59.4 minutes. Here is what he had to say about that momentous day:

"There was complete silence on the ground ... a false start ... I felt angry that precious moments during the lull in the wind might be slipping by. The gun fired a second time ... Brasher went into the lead and I slipped in effortlessly behind him, feeling tremendously full of running. My legs seemed to meet no resistance at all, as if propelled by some unknown force."

So I maintain, that while KW is a realist, we need to be ever-seeking the 4 minnute mile of LOVE. The goal exceeds the ability of all until the day that one finally reaches it.
Or so it seems to me....

love to Zaadies ~

CalmEagle

p.s. The current world record in the mile is 3:43.13, set by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco on July 7, 1999. The current women's record is 4:12.56 by Svetlana Masterkova of Russia, set on August 14, 1996.

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

http://coolmel.gaia.com — Thu, 25 May 2006 16:04:20 GMT

hearts on fire @ world pyro olympics 2005 (redux)

man, this is a great thread! i didn't jump in here sooner because i didn't know what to say. but now think my mind is clear enough to chime in my two cents.

reading the Cohen quote, i think i understand where he's coming from. although it's a bit "cold" compared to the Christian concept of Love, it's got some very important truths expressed in it. i think what Cohen expressed here is the non-idiot compassion way of loving and being loved. and for that i agree with him.

allow me to share my take on this.

for me, unconditional love is just a romantic idea. in the relative world everything IS conditional. our existence is conditional (e.g. we have to eat to live, we have to abide by the law, etc...). even our parents love us conditionally. and there is also such a thing as ranking when it comes to love (e.g. i love my wife more than my parents more than my siblings more than my friends more than strangers). see the conditionality of love?

now if we talk about the absolute, then ahhh, that's a different story because from what i understand (conceptually), even love dissolves into it. well not actually dissolves but the absolute is the ground of all that is good about love. the absolute is love, the absolute is NOT love, the absolute is love and not love and then some. people/mystics who have access to this realm/stage/state of consciousness are the only ones who can authentically declare that they love unconditionally.

the trick of course is how do we mortals know who are those authentic and who are the ones who's full of crap. i say let's forget about it, turn inwards, and meditate/reflect/contemplate on this classic Wilber quote:

“We must forgive each other our arising, for our existence always torments others. The golden rule in the midst of this mutual misery has always been, not to do no harm, but as little as possible; and not to love one another, but as much as you can.”

– Ken Wilber, Excerpt B: The Many Ways We Touch - The Calculus of Uncomfort

~C (for Conditional Love is Love)

Gaia: Kosmic Blogging 101 - Kosmic Blogging Injunctions - (Un)conditional Love ?

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

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"Backquotes Are Soft" ....from the link u sent...sounds like a page in the massage therapist manual...OK C4Chaos, see what i mean?Excruciatingly geeky indecipherableness....to this old seahorse.:o)CalmEagle

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hearts on fire @ world pyro olympics 2005 (redux)

"Backquotes Are Soft" ....from the link u sent...sounds like a page in the massage therapist manual...

OK C4Chaos, see what i mean?

Excruciatingly geeky indecipherableness....to this old seahorse.

:o)

CalmEagle