(Un)conditional Love ?

Got this quote from Andrew Cohen yesterday and would like to hear your opinion about it:

”Unconditional love has no value whatsoever if you're interested in the evolution of consciousness. I know that this ideal is very popular in the postmodern spiritual marketplace. But let's just think for a moment about what the phrase implies. It means “I'll love you absolutely and forever, no matter what you do and no matter what you have ever done—whether you are the greatest saint or the worst sinner that the universe has ever produced.” That's love without any conditions whatsoever. But what use is a love like that? The only individual who wants or needs to be loved unconditionally is a sinner who has absolutely no intention of repenting! An individual who truly intends to change and transform doesn't need or even want love without conditions. If you have stopped playing games and have finally chosen to take yourself and the precious life you are living seriously for the right reasons, you take responsibility for the evolution of consciousness at the deepest and highest level. You make the heroic effort to cultivate soul-strength, which is the capacity for integrity, transparency, and most important of all, authenticity. Because you aspire to evolve morally, you just don't need to be loved unconditionally. In fact, you have awakened to a kind of love that is highly conditional, a love that demands nothing less than everything from each and every one of us. If you want the universe to evolve through you, the last thing that you need is to be loved without conditions.” - A.Cohen

It's true that we use the words unconditional love much too often without really thinking about it. But, aren't we imposing too much when loving conditionally?

I love to love but not unconditionally ;-)

Diana 

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Hi,
That is a very interesting quote from Cohen. And very wise in my opinion.
On a higher level we may refer to unconditional love, for all beings. But that is one thing.
On a person to person relation there is obviously conditions. We are conditioned by default!
Any way, Unconditional love sounds unhealthy to me— it means that we have to accept everything with
no condition, with no possibility of change, grow.
It is hard to settle these conditions and requires a lot of work and to be very open.
Because we don’t talk with each other about conditions and force ourselves to accept everything unconditionally, we end up
breaking before even trying to make things work under those conditions.

Cheers!

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

this should be an interesting dialogue…  here's my two cents.

first, i think the word “sin” is highly subjective.  if it is true that the only person who needs to be loved unconditionally is the sinner who has no intention of repenting, then this begs the question:  what is the definition of sin?  who has the final say on what that definition is?

it is entirely possible that any one of us could be “sinning” and have no intention of repenting because we may not consider our sin to be a sin.  who's to say?  for those who have no interest in marriage but are part of a committed relationship and living together - do you think you are sinning?  i'd say no, you don't.  but ask someone who believes it IS a sin to be living together without being married, and they will say that YOU are the sinner with no intention of repenting.  it's all personal perception.

o.k. - that being said…  on to unconditional love.  i feel there is a distinction between unconditional love and unconditional acceptance.  i can love you unconditionally and still choose to vehemently disagree with your thoughts/actions, etc.  i can love you unconditionally and choose to not associate with you.  i don't believe that loving unconditionally means that i have to have you in my life and find a way to accept or condone all that you may do, say or think.

for those of you who have children…  do you love them unconditionally?  will a vegan father love his carniverous daughter less because she doesn't believe being a carnivore is a sin?  the mother of an unrepentant murderer who thinks they were justified in their action still loves her child but abhors and condemns the act of murder.  it is unconditional love without unconditional acceptance.

“If you want the universe to evolve through you, the last thing that you need is to be loved without conditions.”    I disagree…  we all need to be loved unconditionally, but we also need to have expectations of each other.  we need to understand that if we don't meet these expectations that there may be consequences - but i don't feel that one of those consequences should be that i stop loving you.

fenix

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I agree with FenixR…  If I could say it better, I would! 

I just want to add:

  When you love someone unconditionally, especially a child, to whom your love is especially important, they feel freer to take risks in life, knowing that if they do make a mistake they will not lose your love. (We must take risks in life!) A child who has made a mistake will be able to admit it to you and you will be able to help them get back on the right course. Also, a gay child (for example) will more likely feel comfortable coming out to parents, and be more likely to take advice to heart. When they no-doubt feel rejection in other places, they will have a softer landing with you. 

A child who feels they can lose your love by their actions will not be as safe in this world as a child who knows they have it no matter what. Their poor decisions will only multiply because they will not have you to help redirect them. And if your love depends on them being a different person than who they really are (as in a gay child), well, those type of “conditions” are “wrong” in my book! (So there!)

When we tell our child “I don't like what you did, but I'll always love you,” you are helping them, not hurting. Behavior changes, but love should remain steadfast. 

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Wow, this is a touchy one….

I do love unconditionally… period.  And this is not because I am the ulimate sinner who is hell-bent on not repenting… I know I have “missed” and I am by far not perfect… not even going to try for such a term as perfect… I want to make mistakes… I want to “miss” …. I keep using that word because that is the literal translation of the word that has biblically been translated into “sin” … in ancient text and in the culture where it was used … the word meant “to miss”… it is the need of religion that has driven the word “sin” into such a dark and unforgiving area.

Back to unconditional love…  it is real… and it can be practiced.  I do not choose to love only certain people IF they meet certain criteria… I truly love the human person… I may not condone what actions they have taken… but I love the person.  There is a difference and I think Mr. Cohen is “missing” it.

To me, unconditional love is a natural love… it is love without judgement, without meeting expectations.  I love myself unconditionally… now THAT was a challenge to learn how to do!  ”An individual who truly intends to change and transform doesn't need or even want love without conditions.” - I highly disagree!  I feel that we do want love unconditional… we want to be love irregardless of mistakes… what I most certainly DO want from those around me is the integrity to challenge me to live to my highest potential - and to challenge me without kid gloves… does that mean that they can not love me unconditionally at the same time?  No.  

”Because you aspire to evolve morally, you just don't need to be loved unconditionally.”  Again, I feel a strong need to make a point here… he continues after this quote to say that this love that you awaken into “demands” …. uhm… nope… that would be one's ego that “demands nothing less than everything from each and every one of us.”  And those who are truly and authentically AWAKENED know this.  Because it is not something that is cultivated or created… it is naturally there… this love without conditions does exist… anything else is created by man's ego - a new box to fit into.  It's time to live naturally outside the box of expectations.  And I don't feel that loving unconditionally is an imposition at all…

My humble opinion on the topic.

~K 

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Andrew Cohen is a scary man:

The only individual who wants or needs to be loved unconditionally is a sinner who has absolutely no intention of repenting! An individual who truly intends to change and transform doesn't need or even want love without conditions.

I think not. When I have been loved only conditionally, and this has been most of my life, I was afraid to change or grow for fear of doing something to violate the conditions that have been set. A couple of people have mentioned the example of children – we must love our kids without condition or they will never be strong enough to grow into healthy human beings. That isn't to say we should not set limits and boundaries, only that we do not stop loving them in any way when they violate those boundaries.

Contrary to Andy's egocentric go-it-alone crap, even as adults we need to know that we are loved without condition by someone or something. We need that foundation from which to grow and explore, knowing we have safe place to which we can return. Further, having someone love us that deeply encourages us to live up to that love. We want to be deserving of that love. It's easier to strive for that knowing it won't be taken away.

Granted, there are some people who will not respond well to that form of love, but they are narcissists (much like AC) and what they need is limits and punishments.

AC always claims to be second tier, but what he is advocating here is something that only a Red meme psyche (egocentric, narcissistic) could find valuable. Hmmm … . Check out this site if you want to know more about AC's supposed enlightenment. 

Peace,

Bill 

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

I thought this was covered by the concept of masculine and feminine compassion.  I'm familiar with the concept only as far as I've heard it talked about on Integral Naked.  But basically he's talking about the hard-assed, do what's right masculine compassion.  Wouldn't unconditional love be more like the all embracing feminine?  

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I think unconditional love is without a dualistic gender reference.  It is beyond that.  And why would “masculine compassion” have to be “hard-assed, do what's right”?  Masculine and feminine both have hard-assed attributes… and they both have gentle but firm strengths.  Why label with an anthropomorphism?  Love, compassion… those are not man-made … or should I say, ego-made qualities when used in the pure context of what it is.  When you slap a dualistic adjective (label) on something you change the purity of what it is …. Love Is Love.  Why complicate what “kind” of love it is?  All that does is add the potential of it not being available to certain people… thus, conditions are formed.

~K

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I agree with you that unconditional love is loving without boundaries.  However, I can also see the Cohen side, where we say and mean one definition of unconditional love, but usually live another.

For example:  Someone close to you chooses to hurt you intentionally (whether it be by moving out or putting down your ideals, etc).  You may still love them as a person, but not wholly treat them the same as you would a loving a different close friend who hadn't hurt you. 

I think that children are definitely to be loved unconditionally so they can learn on their own.  The “unconditionality” is always there… I mean no matter what you will love the child.  But suppose your child grows up to become a child molester (hopefully if you really love your child they won't, but let's just assume for argument's sake they do).  Would you still love your son or daughter then?  Probably yes, but you would be so hurt and disappointed with them as a person that you may lose the desire to keep communicating with them.  

I guess you would still love them, even if you chose not to communicate with them.  But then I guess we get into the definition of love….

And that's another subject!  LOL

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Well, I seem to have mixed up compassion and love.  Or it's a definition thing.  If you mean love as in, “God is love,” well, like you said.

But there is also, if I'm getting what I've learned right, different qualities that a thing like compassion can have.  I'll qoute from here where the differences are stated better than I can muster up. 

Masculine compassion refers to the type of compassion… that will call it like it is, and try to shake another awake.  

Feminine compassion on the other hand,…  seeks to protect and nurture.

 Neither is reserved for one gender or another.  Any person has access to both.  And each situation might call for one or the other.  I think Cohen is saying there is not enough of the first type in a lot of current spiritual movements.  Though, like Bill and othes have said, Cohen certainly has his problems.

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

If you ….have finally chosen to take yourself…. seriously for the right reasons, you take responsibility for the evolution of consciousness at the deepest and highest level. You make the..effort to cultivate soul-strength, …. integrity, transparency, and …..authenticity. Because you aspire to evolve morally, you just don’t need to be loved unconditionally
. ………………….
In fact, you have awakened to a kind of love that is highly conditional, a love that demands nothing less than everything from each and every one of us. If you want the universe to evolve through you, the last thing that you need is to be loved without conditions.”

I am re-reading this so many times & I sit here feeling & listening to my whole being & I suddenly got it that it is my ego that wants to be loved. Sure I want others to love me AND I am absolutely comfortable with others not loving me.

I do not seek out friendships b/c ——I want to be absolutely authentic—- that requires some depth on all people involved. That is not possible with most people I encounter. Avoidance is the GAME. So I am at peace with not a lot of friends, who needs more games?

But my ego sure would like people to like me, but my I doesn’t give a hoot.

PJ

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I keep mulling this over & over………

Children need LOVE & Compassion to grow well. The ill, the elderly, the injured, the abused all need love & compassion to deal. With all of this, something in me says that a well balanced individual has the inner strength to accept what is on his/her plate & the Higher Mind does not need a show of love & compassion, but it helps.

PJ - The Thinker.

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Heal not deal silly.

smiles

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Hi Peggy,

I think you are right about the higher mind – or witness or whatever we want to call that part of ourselves that is above ego needs – not needing unconditional love to function well.

As a Buddhism, I think about absolute reality and conditional reality. In absolute reality, everything is emptiness and ego has no presence. In conditional reality, cause and effect pertain and we need healthy egos in order to not hurt ourselves and other people.

So, yes, the higher self does not need unconditional love – and I think this is what Cohen, in his own sledge hammer way, was trying to get at. 

But we have to function in the material world, and we do this through our egos. Our egos need unconditional love to be healthy and strong.

At least that's how I am trying to look at this issue.

Peace,

Bill 

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Yeah, I think you have to remember the context that Andrew is speaking from.  He is not talking about children, he is talking about spiritual seekers that desire enlightenment.  As long as you are desiring or needing unconditional love, you are viewing things from the point of view of the ego.  Not that that's bad, but it's limiting. 

In order to move beyond ego into transcendence, you have to drop that requirement, I think.  Yes, you want someone to fall back on, so your ego can feel safe again.  But when you start identifying with your higher self, you have to take full responsibility for your own safety and love and acceptance, or I think you just can't move to that next level.  I think Andrew is pretty spot on for the audience he is speaking to.

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Uh, that should read, “As a Buddhist …” Haven't been an ism yet.

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Fuel for the discussion fire from two diverse sources, Wicca and Christianity.

From the Wiccan Rede, it's two main ethical touchstones:

And it harm none, do what thou wilt.

Lest in thy self defense it be, ever mind the rule of three.

Brief elaboration:  “And it harm none” refers not only to other people, but also to yourself, animals and the Earth Herself.  We're connected to each other at a variety of levels - spiritually, ecologically and physically (quantum)  - and we must carefully weigh our actions with their consequences.  This does not mean that we never take action because we're busy weighing out the consequences of living & going out the door in the morning, but that our actions should be guided by the awareness of the potential impact of our deeds.
The Rule of Three deals with karma, or of reaping what you sow.  Wiccans believe that what you do comes back to you threefold, so if you send out bad energy in the form of a spell, words or action, not only does it backfire on you, you get three times the consequence!  It's important to remember that just because those of us who may have been harmed by another person's deliberate actions may not instantly see the consequence in the other person's life, there will still be consequences.  Oh yes, there will be. 
And here's a nice segue into the Christian side which is from the Bible “Vengence is mine: I will repay, saith the Lord.” Not me, not you will repay or even the State.  This statement is the basis of Christian pacifism such as is found in the Quaker church. We don't see the whole picture, but there is One who does. And also from the Bible, “The sun shines of the just and on the unjust.” referring to the love of God streaming forth on all humanity regardless of behaviors.  There is a sort of koan here, zen and christian at the same time.

Ok back to unconditoinal love: I belive holding unconditional love (or striving to; we mostlylhave this as a goal) has more to do with not putting yourself on a bummer  or lowering  your vibrational frequency by letting downer people who do downer behaviors to you/around you/in the world bring you down to their level. It is actually a very high form of self interest to be so giving. It is such a high self serving behavior that it actually blurs the line between selves and helps bring about ONENESS and harmony…which is why Jesus, Buddha and many others taught it over the years, compassion for all…

Or so it seems to me…

CalmEagle

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i've been going back and forth trying to decide whether or not to post on this topic again… clearly i decided to do it.

it's completely possible that i have a different personal definition of “unconditional love” than is being discussed here.  my concept of it has nothing to do with whether or not you like someone or they like you.

if it is not unconditional love for those we have not yet even met, then why do so many of us donate to charities, work with or as advocates for the homeless, teach underprivileged children, fight for a more socially responsible world not just for us but for all future generations??  is it not unconditional love? 

now, we may say that we do not love the murderer - but is it not more appropriate to say that we do not accept and can not tolerate, in our society, the actions of the murderer?  if we had the power to heal the pain in the murderer's soul and/or mind so that he (or she) understood the damage caused by his actions, and because of this healing they then went to work helping to prevent others from committing the same heinous acts…  would we say, “no thank you.  let him stay as he is.  everyone can fend for themselves.”  maybe some would, maybe some would not.  to those who would opt for the healing, i say THAT is unconditional love.  to want the best for ourselves AND everyone else even when it seems the most difficult task.

we can not claim to be part of the “we” and then be concerned solely with our personal enlightenment.

IMHO, i feel that A. Cohen's remarks open a door for people to isolate themselves, be concerned only with themselves and find a convenient excuse for not doing the hard work of getting to know people that are not just like us.  the hard work that requires some sense of “love for all” that cuts a path to finding value in others that are completely different from ourselves.

his words sound to me like “i don't need you, so don't need me.  i'm on a higher path and if you need unconditional love, then you're just not as enlightened as i am.”  really? 

if you subscribe to his theory of enlightenment without unconditional love, then i think you should not expect to receive that which you are wholly unwilling to give.

our egos need to be liked, to be right, to be the center of attention, to be accepted, to be “loved” in this way is different than unconditional love.  it's our soul's that love unconditionally.

for those who believe that unconditional love and being truly enlightened are mutually exclusive…  i have one question…

why are you here at zaadz trying to change the world for the better?  does unconditional love play no part in your response?

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Fenix …. YOU ROCK!  I like the eloquence with which you stated your point… I feel that if I were to post again it would be quite similar to what you just stated….

so, I am gonna just leave it as… “Yeah, what she said!!!”

~K 

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I think there is a misunderstanding here. I don't see anywhere that Andrew is saying that we shouldn't love people unconditionally.  He is saying that at some point on the path, we have to take responsibility for our own evolution and release ourselves from the need for others to love us unconditionally.  Of course we should unconditionally love our children, those in need, those just starting down the path, etc.

It seems like some argument that Andrew isn't making is getting set up as a straw man and then bashed down.  If you read the quote carefully, I think you'll see that although many of the arguments put forth are true, they aren't at odds with what he is saying.

I'm not defending Cohen necessarily, I just think the arguments put forth are not addressing what he is saying in the quote above.  At all.

My .02

Aeryck

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Yes, I perfectly agree with you Aeryck, I also interpreted it that way. As an enlightened person you should take responsibility more than ever for your actions, not longing for unconditional love.

I am happy to have posted this here and not on my blog!!! It would have not been shared with all of you wonderful souls… thanks a lot…it’s great to be amongst you.

namaste,
Diana

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Yes, Thank you Diana for starting this thread:)

And why is it we do not get into these type of discussions in the blogs & even most pods? I’d like to see some cross pollination between pods & blogs on subjects along these lines.

PJ

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first, thanks caprikell…  you made me literally laugh out oud!

second…  i have read the quote so many times i could probably recite it from memory.  that being the case…  i, again, disagree with the interpretation of unconditional love posted after my last entry.

the mere fact that you have listed a finite group of people who should receive unconditional love negates the very essence of what unconditional love IS.

if children should be loved unconditionally, at what age do you flip the switch and stop?  at what point along a “newbie's” path to enlightenment do you cut the apron strings?

unconditional love is not something that is longed for, needed or required.  it is simply a state of being in harmony with all that we claim is part of the “we” - the universal “oneness” of us all.  unconditional love persists through everything, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it.  if it did not, then we would deteriorate (further than we already have) into a race of extreme individualists concerned with nothing outside of ourselves.

it is absolutely true that we all need to take responsibility for our own lives, our own enlightenment, etc.  i am no good to anyone if i am no good to myself.

i think this is where the miscommunication/misunderstanding is happening.  the truth of unconditional love can have no attachments to it.  at the root of what i am attempting to convey here is this…  enlightenment = unconditional love.  they are intertwined.  they are one and the same.  i don't believe you can have one without the other.

respectfully and with much love,
fenix

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p.s.: more food for thought, and a  little shopping…   spread the love… 

fenix

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Again, it seems we might be in agreement, but maybe just don't know it yet. ;)

The only distinction I'm attempting to make is the difference between loving unconditionally and desiring unconditional love.  As you evolve, I think your capacity to love unconditionally increases until as you point out:  enlightenment = unconditional love.  Agreed!  In fact, I would go as far as to say that your capacity to unconditionally love others is the very definition of spiritual growth. 

But I think the other half is 100% true as well.  The further you evolve, the less you need unconditional love from others.  And that is the point I think AC is making above.  He is discussing *needing* and *wanting* unconditional love, not giving it.

There is no finite list of people who should receive your unconditional love, at all!  My point, which I agree I didn't communicate very well, is that there is a finite list of people who need it.  And as far as the ego is concerned, I suppose that all of us desire it.  But AC is all about moving past the ego, and to do so, I think, requires us to evolve to the point where we are an infinite source of unconditional love, and not a seeker of it.

Loving the stimulating conversation.  With love and respect…

Evolve,
Aeryck

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I agree with both of you. :-) 

I had a conversation with my inner angry self one day at our UU church, with my Higher Self asking him why he got pissed off over such-and-such. After several minutes, my angry self confessed: “It's because I want to be loved, and don't feel anyone is giving it to me.”

To which my Higher Self replied:

“Why do you need love? You ARE Love.” 

My angry self hasn't been quite so angry since then.  

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I am in agreement with the dissenters here.

Think about this: breath. Feel it, right now. Breath, falling in, falling out. It excludes no one. Ever. When you most violated your integrity – when you did or felt or were the one thing you are most ashamed of in your life – did breath abandon you? Did it stop loving you? Breath made no distinction between you and Hitler. (I am NOT saying therefore we should make no distinctions. I'll come back to this.) It sounds perhaps silly to say the breath loves you, because this is not what we think love is. We think it is a warm feeling or a sweetness or an experience. But those experiences and feelings are not all there is to love, they merely point us to love, they remind us of essence, and that is why they feel so good. Because for a moment at least you are in alignment with who you most deeply are.

I think Cohen's confused, though I believe Aeryck is right to point out that Cohen seems to be specifically talking about the desire or need to BE the object of unconditional love, rather than the desire or need TO love unconditionally, or to be the subject of love without conditions. But I still think Cohen’s confused.

Here's why…
he said:

 “An individual who truly intends to change and transform doesn't need or even want love without conditions.”

Yes and no. I think yes because such an individual IS love without conditions. But I think no because just because one truly intends to change and transform doesn't mean that one has reached a level of realization in which one's identity is grounded in ISness, which is love. Aspiration announces itself at all levels of development, it is the inherent force of Eros, which propels evolution and growth. But until an individual is firmly established in a stage of consciousness that centers in the feeling state of being love, in the conscious identity with ISness or loveness, Spirit, God, Light, whatever it is that you call it… until then the individual will long to BE loved unconditionally. That is how we learn who we really are. By being mirrored. And those who can witness us through the eyes of unconditional love see us the most accurately. To be seen like that is to be recognized for who you really are, and anyone who has experienced it knows it is a profoundly healing and quickening and empowering experience. Once you really know who you are, you no longer need to be mirrored in this way because EVERYTHING you see reflects your true nature back to you, EVERYTHING you see is love.

“If you have stopped playing games and have finally chosen to take yourself and the precious life you are living seriously for the right reasons, you take responsibility for the evolution of consciousness at the deepest and highest level. You make the heroic effort to cultivate soul-strength, which is the capacity for integrity, transparency, and most important of all, authenticity.”

I think that sometimes the highest expression of that responsibility IS to seek unconditional love.

And sometimes not:  

Cohen is speaking of a certain narcissistic tendency that exists when people get stuck in wanting that fix of love for themselves, from someone else, someone other, and they do not want to grow into responsibility for BEING that love, which would require eventually giving up the yummy feelings of getting it from others, giving up the victimhood, and the excuse for not fully embodying your power, vulnerability, humanity, and divinity. People do get stuck there, not wanting to grow beyond it, demanding their right to be unconditionally loved, meaning, unconditionally excused… “You're wrong in saying I should grow, behave differently, whatever… because I deserve to be loved exactly as I am, and how dare you judge me!” That is a refusal to grow up and take responsibility for one's own integrity, actions, impact in the world, because it is a refusal to take responsibility for BEING love. But sometimes people will hide in that defensive, entitled-to-love posture because they've NEVER really experienced absolute unconditional love. They are achingly, chronically alienated from their own essential nature, awaiting an encounter with an undistorted mirror so they might finally know themselves. And the most heroic, transparent, authentic thing they could possibly do is to admit their need to genuinely experience a human expression of unconditional love and care.

I  believe that it's common in some circles to disparage the care and nurturance aspect of love and compassion, (and conversely, among the mean greens, to disparage tough love.) Andrew Cohen may be one of those teachers who uses a call to self-responsibility and a damnfine critical analysis of narcissism to hide his own deficient capacities for caring and nurturing response-ability, his own failure to feel genuine loving kindness and concern. But he also may simply be issuing a call-to-arms specifically for those whose edge is now to move beyond their i-need-unconditional-love-narcissism. He may or may not be skillful in expressing all aspects of love-in-action. I don’t know.

What I know is that nurturance is one form of true reflection, and unequivocal refusal to permit self-indulgence is another form of the same reflection. Feminine and Masculine compassion, if you like. What is called for in any given moment with any given individual requires wise and lucid discernment.

I believe we are called to be unconditionally loving because we are unconditional love. At some point that means no longer allowing yourself to require that love from another. But it also means honoring any genuine need you have to receive the true mirroring of unconditional love. If you know that parts of you remain curled up in a dark corner feeling unworthy, then the most authentic action you can take is to wisely, self-responsibly seek that love. Sometimes you need to receive it and feel it from “another” in order to know and embody the truth of it.

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Whoops. I forgot to elaborate on the Hitler thing.

As human beings who choose to be responsible with the gift of our lives, we damn well better make distinctions between Hitler and Mum Theresa. But we also have to recognize that actions do not = essence. Unconditional love, like breath, respects only essence. It flows everywhere because everything ultimately IS essence.

When we make distinctions what we are doing is evaluating how aligned a being or an actiuon is with essence, with truth goodness beauty… 

Alignment=unobstructed flow=love in action=skillful means=how I want to express my life force 

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And yes, breath abandons you in death, but Who does it abandon?

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Lauren,  beautifully put.

Whenever I see two “sides” to a discussion, and they both seem right, I always look for the dimension that must be missing.  You said:

“What I know is that nurturance is one form of true reflection, and unequivocal refusal to permit self-indulgence is another form of the same reflection. Feminine and Masculine compassion, if you like. What is called for in any given moment with any given individual requires wise and lucid discernment. ”

And there it is.  Cohen is nothing if not Masculine compassion.  And Feminine compassion is the alternate path.  I think at the end they merge into “I am complete unconditional love and as such, I give it without limits and have no need for it at all.”  But up until that point, which few get to, we must walk both paths at different times.  Cohen is “true but partial” to use a Wilber phrase.  I'll stop here, because you already said it perfectly.  Thanks!

Aeryck

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lauren…  wonderful! 

this discussion has been amazing…  i'm enjoying every second of it!

ok, here's my final attempt to clarify my clarifications  =)

i don't believe that ANY of us wants, desires or needs true unconditional love.  in that instance, in those cases, what we TRULY are looking for is unconditional acceptance….  which is exactly what A. C. described in his statement.  unconditional love does NOT accept you as you are regardless of your actions or thoughts.  unconditional love simply loves your “essence” (as lauren so deftly described).  unconditional love can abhor that which is contrary to the well-being of the whole, and can work to move that energy toward unity…  that is not that same as “loving you no matter what.”

jesus unconditionally loved the money mongers in the temple…  while he ferociously drove them out of that very same temple.  no?

many thanks for the chance to broaden my understanding and philosophical horizons!

fenix

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

I am going to jump into the agreeing side here too… in the statements that I've made, I've not indicated that I (or any enlightended individual) needs to be or receive unconditionally loved… but at the same time… it should be there ANYWAY… unconditional love is what it IS… not something you cast aside once you become enlightened … far from that… you are so much more in tune with unconditional love that you are able to BE a beacon who is able to give irregardless of any reciprocity.   To me, awakened awareness (enlightenment if you want to call it that) is a Divine acceptance of all things BEing what they are… in this state of awareness, one is not able to negate unconditional love…  Love is Love.

Anywho… great thread!  A powerful opportunity to challenge one's thoughts and ask that ever-spiritually-challenging question, “Are you sure?” … and also to give us the opportunity to think for ourselves… it's nice to have teachers like A.Cohen … but it doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything he says… that would be “worship”… and that's a whole new topic in and of itself! 

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Though I've tried to be diplomatic towards Andrew Cohen and his remarks ( I have never met him. And I'm very cautious about criticizing comments that have been removed from context…), they irk me. They simply seem off the mark, unwise. Which troubles me because he is a man of influence and a spiritual leader to many. This especially seems misguided: “But let's just think for a moment about what the phrase (unconditional love) implies. It means “I'll love you absolutely and forever, no matter what you do and no matter what you have ever done—whether you are the greatest saint or the worst sinner that the universe has ever produced.” That's love without any conditions whatsoever. But what use is a love like that?” What use is a love like that? Of more use than anything else, I think. Though “use” is almost beside the point. Of what use is Beingness? The more I think about it, the more I feel he is terribly wrong. I believe that the essence of masculine and feminine compassion both arise from a love that isn't so much unconditional, but exists before conditions even arise. He says: “If you want the universe to evolve through you, the last thing that you need is to be loved without conditions.” I think, 1) Few sentient beings have reached a level of awareness in which they CONSCIOUSLY want the universe to evolve through them. Does he think that only those who do are worthy of life? of love? 2) If you want the universe to evolve through you, the FIRST thing you need is to be loved without conditions. If you are blessed enough to not need this love from other people, if you have found the SOURCE of that love and no longer need to seek that love from others (who are imperfect and cannot but love conditionally), you will demand more of yourself than you ever could while entangled in endless seeking of love, fighting the demons of unworthiness. You will transform far more efficiently, and shine impeccably.

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well said!  i have to admit, i have absolutely NO idea who A. Cohen is…  i've never heard of him.  until lauren just said he's a spiritual leader to many, i had not a clue as to what he did or why he would be making a statement like the one we've been discussing.

i'm with lauren…  knowing, now, that he holds sway over a multitude of folks makes me even more nervous?  unsettled?  about what he is saying.

fenix

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My previous post is hard to read b/c it's all one paragraph. Skip it and read this one. Same text…

Though I've tried to be diplomatic towards Andrew Cohen and his remarks ( I have never met him. And I'm very cautious about criticizing comments that have been removed from context…), they irk me. They simply seem off the mark, unwise. Which troubles me because he is a man of influence and a spiritual leader to many.

This especially seems misguided: “But let's just think for a moment about what the phrase (unconditional love) implies. It means “I'll love you absolutely and forever, no matter what you do and no matter what you have ever done—whether you are the greatest saint or the worst sinner that the universe has ever produced.” That's love without any conditions whatsoever. But what use is a love like that?”

What use is a love like that?

Of more use than anything else, I think. Though “use” is almost beside the point.
Of what use is Beingness?

The more I think about it, the more I feel he is terribly wrong. I believe that the essence of masculine and feminine compassion both arise from a love that isn't so much unconditional, but exists before conditions even arise.

He says: “If you want the universe to evolve through you, the last thing that you need is to be loved without conditions.”

I think,

1) Few sentient beings have reached a level of awareness in which they CONSCIOUSLY want the universe to evolve through them. Does he think that only those who do are worthy of life? of love?

2) If you want the universe to evolve through you, the FIRST thing you need is to be loved without conditions. If you are blessed enough to not need this love from other people, if you have found the SOURCE of that love and no longer need to seek that love from others (who are imperfect and cannot but love conditionally), you will demand more of yourself than you ever could while entangled in endless seeking of love, fighting the demons of unworthiness. You will transform and evolve far more  efficiently, and shine impeccably.

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What you say is true.  The only thing I can add (and the same point I've been trying to make) is that having seen Andrew's talks, read his books, etc. he is talking to those very few sentient beings you talk about in #1, and would almost assuredly agree with what you say in #2.  That was what I was getting at in my original post.  He is talking to those people on the bleeding edge about what is needed to make that last final leap. 

At least that is his usual audience I think, again, from having read his stuff and listened to him.  So *for that audience*, I think he is pretty much right on.

I think his stuff, because of this, seems extremely harsh to most people, even most spiritual seekers.  Ken Wilber's introduction to Andrew's “Living Enlightenment” speaks exactly to this point.  Most seekers are turned off by Andrew because he is way out on the edge pushing extremely hard.

For what it's worth…

Aeryck

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Thanks, aeryk.

That's what I mean about my hesitation to judge comments taken out of full understanding of the context in which they are offerred. I can see how it is conceivable that his provocations are entirely appropriate for those he is speaking to.

I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that's the case, and I do have my suspicions that some of his shadow has revealed itself here, but I am willing acknowledge that he may be speaking in perfect alignment with what was needed, and come to no conclusions.

And I'm grateful too, because this has been a great conversation…

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hearts on fire @ world pyro olympics 2005 (redux) 

man, this is a great thread! i didn't jump in here sooner because i didn't know what to say. but now think my mind is clear enough to chime in my two cents.

reading the Cohen quote, i think i understand where he's coming from. although it's a bit “cold” compared to the Christian concept of Love, it's got some very important truths expressed in it. i think what Cohen expressed here is the non-idiot compassion way of loving and being loved. and for that i agree with him.

allow me to share my take on this.

for me, unconditional love is just a romantic idea. in the relative world everything IS conditional. our existence is conditional (e.g. we have to eat to live, we have to abide by the law, etc…). even our parents love us conditionally. and there is also such a thing as ranking when it comes to love (e.g. i love my wife more than my parents more than my siblings more than my friends more than strangers). see the conditionality of love?

now if we talk about the absolute, then ahhh, that's a different story because from what i understand (conceptually), even love dissolves into it. well not actually dissolves but the absolute is the ground of all that is good about love. the absolute is love, the absolute is NOT love, the absolute is love and not love and then some. people/mystics who have access to this realm/stage/state of consciousness are the only ones who can authentically declare that they love unconditionally.

the trick of course is how do we mortals know who are those authentic and who are the ones who's full of crap. i say let's forget about it, turn inwards, and meditate/reflect/contemplate on this classic Wilber quote:

“We must forgive each other our arising, for our existence always torments others. The golden rule in the midst of this mutual misery has always been, not to do no harm, but as little as possible; and not to love one another, but as much as you can.”

– Ken Wilber, Excerpt B: The Many Ways We Touch - The Calculus of Uncomfort

~C (for Conditional Love is Love)

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

C4Chaos posted
“We must forgive each other our arising, for our existence always torments others. The golden rule in the midst of this mutual misery has always been, not to do no harm, but as little as possible; and not to love one another, but as much as you can.”
Excellent thought from KW.  However I maintain that there is the four-minute-mile of love. By that I mean, for years and years no one thought a human could run a four minute mile. It was taken to be a physical impossibility, like walking on water or levitating. And then on May 6th, 1954, when Grandmama CalmEagle was just a wee fledgling chick, after a frustrating false start, Roger Bannister ran a mile in 3:59.4 minutes. Here is what he had to say about that momentous day: 

“There was complete silence on the ground … a false start … I felt angry that precious moments during the lull in the wind might be slipping by. The gun fired a second time … Brasher went into the lead and I slipped in effortlessly behind him, feeling tremendously full of running. My legs seemed to meet no resistance at all, as if propelled by some unknown force.”

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

interesting factoid, CalmEagle.

but you've just proven my point.

what happens after the four-minute-mile of love? the conditionality is the state during that four minutes of bliss. it's like saying i have uncondtional love within a four-minute window. um, that sounds conditional to me. or did i miss anything?

IMHO, we should stop seeking even the hundred-years of loving and just flow with eternal lovin'. 

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LOL my dear c4Chaos,

our conversations are akin to an elderly seahorse discussing key lime pie with a young male savannah rhino….they might respect each other because of having good  manners, but will they ever connect?  I see your point but do you see mine?  My main point is that we should never think we know it all or grok it all or understand it all and no limits means just that, so evolution may occur in the direction GOD/UNIVERSE sees fit…
Love with conditions and without conditions,

CalmEagle

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

LOL. i think i see your point now. cool analogy too.

sometimes i'm a bit slow you know ;)

peace, love, happiness, and Divine discontent,

~C (for Conditional Statements using Ruby) 

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“Backquotes Are Soft” ….from the link u sent…sounds like a page in the massage therapist manual…

OK C4Chaos, see what i mean?

Excruciatingly geeky indecipherableness….to this old seahorse.

:o)

CalmEagle

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

I see that things can get a bit confusing when you consider conditional and unconditional love – look at the length of this thread!!!

In my eyes, the idea of unconditional love comes from the non attachment to the love that we share. It means to be big enough to give without expectation or attachment but also to have the awareness to improve our lives and our communities.  If we are definitely seeking for an ideal balance in our own lives then automatically we have an awareness of the pull towards perfection of all beings.  We desire to have experiences that help us toward our own perfection.  And having said that….after all, inner peace is not unconditional.

 Thanks again for sharing all those wonderful points of view…it has been a pleasure  to read them. Well I think I should convince Andrew Cohen to come over here and give him a chance to defend his own “quote”. It's worth a try…

 Diana

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

I have only today - 28th March 2007 - joined this zPod - so come belatedly to the discussion despite having posted my own views on Don't KILL the messenger.

I have landed here so to speak - as a result of following through on the concept of integral parenting - & felt that I should make comment accordingly.

It was Diana who started the thread & I believe the ONE who has provided the most succinct answer to her own question namely that - (Un)conditional Love means to be big enough to give without expectation or attachment but also to have the awareness to improve our lives and our communities - always considering that the “U” in (Un) means YOU

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

I just read quite a few of your responses to this quote, and hey….. love 'im or 'ate 'im…. the man got you all thinking!!

I can relate to this tendency to be repulsed by the new-agey lovey-dovey this and that, sometimes its like handing someone a bar of chocolate just after they've vomited. I think many people make an “idea” of love and live according to the idea rather than the reality (myself included). Love, to me, is often nothing more than sincere attention. “Unconditional love” as I see it is making an effort to be present, to really listen to someone and hear their genione needs.

I don't think anyone would deny that walking an authentic path takes hard work. But to say unconditional love is unnecessary and undesirable is like saying that you can be born without your mother's uterus. It remains to be a foundation in development, even science is beginning to demonstrate this.

Ideally, one may grow to a point where it is so integrated into the fabric of being that it is no longer perceived as an active principle ie something that needs maintenence. But you have to walk before you can run. If I have any conception of a spiritual leader, or any leader for that matter, it is one who can relate compasstionately to many levels of development in his “pupils”.

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Well, I just invited Ken Wilber to join the discussion since Andrew Cohen hasn't joined Zaadz yet!  Should be a very interesting discussion indeed if he joins in as well!

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Hello,

I think that the problem is that we are trying to hard to analyse said quote below. 

What unconditional love, to me, means, is the ability of the person to hold love and compassion for all - desptie circumstances/situations. 

Yoga (and others) teach us that we must bless-love all people and feel compassion for those who may be, (at the risk of sounding superior, don't mean to - spiritually challenged.  Unconditional love is for all beings, and especially for those who need it the most - and goes beyond the single relationships.

It does imply or mean though, that we, as individuals, allow ourselves to be walked on/over by others.  We must keep ourselves strong spritiually, emotionally and pyhysically in, keep aware of our expectations, perceptions - mis-perceptions, and attachments, in order to keep our hearts open to others.  This is where the real strength of our divinity lies.

Conditional love is quite frankly twisted, and therefore can not be love. 

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

“The only individual who wants or needs to be loved unconditionally is a sinner who has absolutely no intention of repenting!”


I get the gist of the message, but I had a laugh at this particular sentence. Sounds like the messenger might have some ego or other issues around it (just an intuition I have.)

I have had the experience of loving unconditionally and found it to be a freeing, wonderfully healing experience (it ultimately is for the one doing the unconditional loving.) Regardless of what appearances may be to the contrary,  it is also a freeing, wonderfully healing experience for 'other' as well (whether it is seen or acknowledged at the time is of no consequence.

Ultimately, it matters not what AC or anyone else (including me) thinks or says about  loving unconditionally. It's ALL Love. It is the pesky little human mind/ego that wants to delineate Love into types of love and rationalize or decide who does or does not 'deserve' a particular “type” of love.

~ mu

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Oh God, well there sure must be some unconditional Love floating around because I suddenly saw the JOIN NOW button on this pod. I pressed it, and it worked!! I

'd been wanting to be part of this pod but discovered it too late, and now the Rule of 150 seems to be crossed out.

Amen and thank you Jesus.

Okay. Back to unconditional love.

people/mystics who have access to this realm/stage/state of consciousness are the only ones who can authentically declare that they love unconditionally.

I tend to agree with you, dear C4. (I always have a little involuntary cringe when my mother tells me she loves me unconditionally…)

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wow! i love that quote! thanks for that.

and yeah, the Rule of 150 is no more. gah! what was i thinking :)

~C

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Sandra,

The quote takes me back in time to the one nice thing my mother said to me, she said, I do not like some of the things about you… or things that you do… but I want you to know, always, that I love you.

Of course it took yearsssssss for me to figure that one out….  But it makes so much sense to me….  I may, and at times do, really dislike certain things & beliefs my friends live by, and yet I do love them dearly…..

So there you go………..   Isn't that unconditional love? loving the essense of the person & letting the dirt fall away….  I hope they do as much for me:):)
PJ

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Peggy, this warms my heart. And saddens me too, hearing that this was the 'one nice thing' your mother said. And I feel I understand - I have to dig around a bit to remember the nice things my mother has said to me, In fact I might even try to write a blog about her, in gratitude, not something that comes easily to me around my mother, and yet I know I would not be the person I am if it were not for her.

And yes, I really 'get' that there are so many people I love, that I do not always like their behaviour etc. And many people I don't want to spend time with, but I still feel what I call 'love' for.

Lovely definition of unconditional love actually. Perhaps the unconditional part is for us - that we do not pretend to 'like' everything about someone, that we take the risk to share our experience of what they do, that we are 'straight' and unconditional in our relationships. I've had some very 'hard' feedback by a teacher similar to Andrew Cohen, and for me, it was the most loving thing. Others watching thought I'd be flattened, broken, but I needed to hear those things, and I could feel that the things were said came from a place of truth, not of judgment.

Love to you, dear Peggy,

Sandra

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

For the record, I'm in the pro-unconditional camp, but that's not why I now post…..or is it?

I'm responding to Sandra's use of the word judgment. The failure to distinguish pre-judgment from judgment is highly disfunctional, imo, another new-age error. Judgement (rational discrimination, discernment) is a virtue, not a vice.

Peace and Love

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

Yes, the word judgement is often heard as a vice and indeed it can be use as a brick to close the mind behind a wall. and it is very powerful to discern and distinquish -we do that all the time, even inside the energy of love.

For me, Love is neither conditional or unconditional.  It is as Steven Harrison describes… an energy and the quantum potential of what is next. I love that!

My response to love, my decisions around that energy, the nature of my participation with and control of love is often very conditional -my condition? Hurt, acceptance, sacrifice and transformation are all ok with me as long as I can maintain stability.  (fat chance huh?) Security is what I control for most and Love's power to …
“… destroy us and to create something entirely new from the ashes.” is both what I yern for most and invite the least.

Unconditional love is the act of free fall into the pure power & energy of love ~
Conditional love is the act of falling with a parachute -my right hand firmly gripping the rip cord, discerning each deeper moment, looking for that tipping point moment to pull up and save myself from the ashes.

I think I'll pray for a good burning ~grin.
Synerjyz

Re: (Un)conditional Love ?

For me, Love is neither conditional or unconditional.  It is as Steven
Harrison describes… an energy and the quantum potential of what is
next. I love that!

For me too, Synergyz!

Hurt, acceptance, sacrifice and transformation are all ok with me as long as I can maintain stability..

I feel refreshed reading your honesty about this. Yes, yes. And the mind is so tricky - in my experience. I 'think' I'm being open, loving, clear, etcetera, but if I really look deeper, mostly I'm simply engaged in another level of attempting to control my experience ( to feel safe…).

Elementstew -
The failure to distinguish pre-judgment from judgment is highly disfunctional, imo,
another new-age error. Judgement (rational discrimination, discernment)
is a virtue, not a vice.

Sadly it's not only the new age movement which has co-opted the connotations of the word 'judgement'. I have written at length about the positive, or rather, neutral facility of 'noticing', the value of simply having an informed opinion which is not biased towards 'right' or 'wrong'; about the value of discernment.

Retrospectively I can see I was in 'reaction' to being told that judgement is “bad”. I wanted to believe that it was possible for me to simply 'see' without filters, I wanted to believe that I did not always view others, situations and things with  glasses which divided everything into 'good' and 'bad' ( or somewhere inbetween).

Personally, I know maybe two people ( and I know a lot of very 'developed' people) who are truly able to see without personally conditioned and limiting ideas of what is right and wrong. 

Rational discrimination is actually rather questionable in my view - how do you know that your 'rationality' is rational?

If, as Bruce Lipton suggests:

” the subconscious runs our biology from 95-99% of the day, Since we are generally unaware of our subconscious belief (hence the concept of “unconscious” processing), we rarely see that our own behavior is the sabotaging element we must face.”

Then I suspect most of us are acting, thinking, making choices that have very little to do with being 'rational', we might think we are… but what informs that particular thought?

And, although I hesitate to raise this question here when it's fully explored in depth on the I-I pod and elsewhere - why the value biased emphasis on rational?

As Mushin ( a German ) has said, on this very subject: “The Germans pre WW2 were known to be among the most advanced nations philosophically and technologically. Many.. celebrated philosophers are German… now that didn't stop us from starting the most technologically advanced and rational war ever. No, reason is to be tempered by all kinds of 'frameworks'.”

I”m very excited by Mushin and Helen's recent blogs, partly inspired by Thich Nhat Hanh's statement “The  Next Buddha will be a collective.”

They both seem to explore this issue of 'love' in a very wide and transformative vessel - opening my focus from the point of self, to what is between self and other, to an “the emergence of the phenomenon of collective intelligence ” -  I would suggest that this is an emergence of  love itself - something new, including and surpassing all our former ideas and descriptions of love:

“an energy and the quantum potential of what is next..”


~ Sandra

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Hi, I have just found this blogg, and only been on zaadz for a few days so do not fully understand the etiquette or processes. Nor have I had the time to follow all these discussions fully, so apologies for this fact. I add the following comments simply because Cohens quote coincidentally was sent to me a couple of days ago. So here goes: 

Diana asked:
“It's true that we use the words unconditional love much too often without really thinking about it. But, aren't we imposing too much when loving conditionally?”

I am always a little confused when I hear the phrase unconditional love.

For me, 'Love', whatever that is, can only be unconditional, anything else is simply a construct of the mind.
 
Cohen refers to things like “sin, need, and integrity” all mindful constructs. He also says that unconditional love has no value - another construct. So really irrespective of what opinion anyone has of 'conditional' or 'uncondirtional' love, the important question for me is  “What value does our mind have in the process of our conscious evolution? 

The universe we live in, and are an intrinsic part of, is profoundly amazing. In my experience I have come to recognise that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING has immense value in the evolution of consciousness and co-creation. It is not possible for it to be any other way UNLESS YOU CHOOSE IT TO BE SO.

The Universe works in a structured way even when operating seemingly in a chaotic manner. The clearest understanding I have of how consciousness evolves, and where my mind fits into this structure, is through an ever present and ongoing dance involving The Holographic Triune and Natural Paradox.

I do sound as though I have swallowed a section from a bullsh**ter's dictionary, and apologise if this is so. However, I am a very simple, but practical bloke who used to own a construction company, which is definately all about things practical. So if you are interested, stay with me on this for a moment.

Natural paradox occurs where some conflicting or opposite information, opinion or evidence is present . This is ALWAYS the case if we care to look. In any experience there is always a positive perspective and a negative one. The Yin and the Yang. We usually see the negative one fairly prominently. That's good. No, that is actually great! It is great because we are then in a better position to see what we do not want, and then what we do. This allows us to make a conscious choice to set about co-creating what we want through the power of deliberate intention. Without the negative, our awareness would not be so clear. The thought of conditionally loving is part of this process.

Problem is, often we have learned to get stuck in emotion, but that's another story.

In addition to the two perspectives; positive and negative there always exists a third one, the unseen; that one that people refer to as the 'Aha'. So here we have the first example of The Holographic Triune in action.

The most powerful working version of The Holographic Triune that each of us has as a PRACTICAL & USEABLE working tool to raise our consciousness, individually and collectively is simply the relationship between Logic, Emotion and Intution; between Mind, Heart and Soul.

I have probably written too much already, but if wish to consider more information about the Holographic Triune, look at some articles on my website http://www.senseable.co.uk/ under articles.

To conclude. If you want the universe to evolve through you, it has very little to do with the concept of conditional or unconditional love. I suggest it happens as a consequence of self - observation, refelection and conscious choice in what you think. It starts by acknowledging the conditions you impose on yourself and on others and in realising that you have never, ever in your life been wrong, been late, been judged by anyone nor have judged anyone else. Paradoxically, it accelerates by your becoming more and more judjemental not less so; for your judgement is your mirror that eables you to see, and begin to understand, the limiting subconscious beliefs you have inheirted. In that moment conscious co-creation gets to be very exciting, and the mind begins to play a less dominant and fearful role.

On that note I really must stop - I have a product to launch in four weeks.

As I have said I've only just arrived on the scene so do please join my circle of friends - I would love to engage in conversations, help and support you in stepping towards your dream, and invite you to help me to create mine. In doing so, together we can demonstrate to ourselves, and the world at large that we should expect miracles.

LnL

Pete