Gaia: Living Metaphysics - Law of Attraction, Abraham-Hicks & The Secret

Re: Is it healthy to be Selfish?

http://baba.gaia.com — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 00:03:50 GMT

Yes FastDart, but the twist takes the 'other people' concept and makes it all a reflection of self. It changes things.

Re: Is it healthy to be Selfish?

http://fastdarter.gaia.com — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:56:51 GMT

Reflection Ken..It's like the rabbit hole...it has no bottom.
Excellent observation Torchholder.

We live in a house of mirrors and think we are looking out the windows ~ Fritz Perls
*Image Source

Re: Is it healthy to be Selfish?

http://baba.gaia.com — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:12:53 GMT

I agree Torchholder, but there's a twist to all this: without you there are no other people in the world. Perception all begins and ends with self.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 03:14:24 GMT

...and, I thought today, to honor the choices made by others; even if they lead to consequences such as this.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://baba.gaia.com — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 18:59:38 GMT

If this incident teaches us anything, it is to trust intuition.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:47:14 GMT

In my reading this morning, I found this discussion in The Super Beings book by John Randolph Price under the chapter called The Lesson (pg 46) which I think appropriate to this discussion, without judging whether James Arthur Ray comes under this category or not -

"This is why you must be so careful not to fall under the spell of someone who is spreading his word as the Word of God. Even what I say, you must prove for yourself, and you must be free to do so. I will not dignify cults by even discussing them, except to say that any group that attempts to imprison the mind or stifle the spirit of man - whether in the name of love or scientific adventure - will eventually reap the destructiveness that it has sown."

...

"Many speak via the avenue of mass media from a platform of organized religion and from the Bible, and so there is credibility to their words. But if they condemn and judge others, if they preach self-degradation, if they rally the masses against a particular segment of society, if they attempt to limit the individual's freedom or freedom of choice with any form of repression, and if they spread fear of God and mistrust toward man, they are not teaching the Truth."

As always, discernment is the key, and that discernment must be for the individual Self, from the inner wisdom and guidance of their Higher Self when manifest; and if that has not yet been connected with, then from the survival instincts of their Ego (fear of the coercion of pride), until such time as the indwelling presence has made itself known and trusted.

Peace & Blessings -
Deb

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 02:12:39 GMT

Gilly,

Always we are responsible for our own selves.

That is what I think you were saying here.

It can not only be up to those administering or managing the experience, though they should care enough to provide the best environment and safety possible - given the purpose of what is happening.

Now, the purpose itself can make the experience dangerous, as I'm sure most Native American traditions would accept equally. To challenge oneself severely often means just such a "serious" risk and the "motivation" that provides. Think of climbing Everest or rock climbing - the risk is assumed by the individual undertaking the experience.

Some people are unduly influenced by "peer" pressure, and I think you were also indicating that could make some people fail to honor their instincts, and not run away or get themselves out before it was too late, even though something inside them is telling them to do just that.

Always, there is a choice . . .

Deb

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://Gilly.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 23:28:20 GMT

Might death also occur, not because of the sweat lodge set up, rules, regulations, believes, culture, but because of individal ego and emotions where one might feel they cannot walk out out because it would be seen as weak, or because it is expected to see the process through. Some people (more in the western world) may also see a sweat lodge as a way to loose weight and not see it for the spiritual process it represents.
Yes the people running the sweat lodges are responsible for people, and for making sure the sweat lodge is used in the right way and for the right reason. But can one always tell what is on another persons mind, that it becomes used in the wrong way.. ?
Just a thought. hope it makes sense... Its late here..

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:33:06 GMT

Lyrics being ever important to me, I just wanted to place them here for those who care about such -

Day after day, alone on the hill,
The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still.
But nobody wants to know him,
They can see that he's just a fool.
And he never gives an answer .....

But the fool on the hill,
Sees the sun going down.
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning around.

Well on his way, his head in a cloud,
The man of a thousand voices, talking perfectly loud.
But nobody ever hears him,
Or the sound he appears to make.
And he never seems to notice .....

But the fool on the hill,
Sees the sun going down.
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning around.

And nobody seems to like him,
They can tell what he wants to do.
And he never shows his feelings,

But the fool on the hill,
Sees the sun going down.
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning around.

Re: Is it healthy to be Selfish?

http://torchholder.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:49:12 GMT

its very simple. what do you need to do, in order to recharge your batteries, in order to deal with the world and others.

admiration of yourself must be based upon taking inventory of yourself, how you are progressing in your quest for self-improvement, not an unreasonable fetish
of yourself, vanity, inflated ego based upon a fantasy of yourself.

you are the most important person to you, since you only have a life and control over that life thru yourself, your body, your mind, and emotions. taking good care of that system is important, before any other activities can be accomplished effectively.

yet the world is not about you, mostly about others. to live successfully, you must be able to work with that, to influence others to help you in your life,
by showing that you are willing to work with them.

those who are assertive about themselves without being aggressive, who have the ability to be compassionate and responding, who have no problem avoiding those who try to selfishly use them, are the happiest people on this earth.

these are the people who are admired in this world, and that is my model.

those who are unhappy are unbalanced, either to taking care of others before they take care of themselves, or those who take care of themselves always, and
resist interaction with others.

there is a reason we have two legs. balance, balance balance.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://torchholder.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:27:10 GMT

i am torchholder, adopted oglala in an inipi ceremony by delmar dreaming bear, and rick goodweasel, in pine ridge reservation. this experience changed my life,
and my ways, and i am eternally grateful that my brothers adopted me into the tribe, and gave me this incredible experience.

there is a reason why this experience needs to be controlled, and that the best host is selected to give the inipi. good judgement is always necessary, taking into account the weaker ones and the newbies is part of that trust.

yet, the native americans have had no problem initiating and adopting outsiders, but they question them and make sure that their desire is pure, and observe them as they experience this bonding to the tribe.

there is good reason why they object to outsiders experimenting with this inipi.

those who have a true desire should attend with the tribe, and be joined.
this is an all or nothing proposition, and is not for amateurs or experimenters.

these accidents do nothing for any of us, and can cause a backlash against the practice entirely. this would be tragic indeed, because inipi purification is at the heart of most tribes.

it would be like outlawing communion for catholics.

we are all together, we are all one, i am the same as you.

torchholder

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://eternalquestion.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:59:07 GMT

Meenakshi and Deb, that was kinda my conclusion in the wordpress sweat lodge blog...to look within carefully and find out what is true. (although may have said it differently.) This entire issue about the deaths in the sweat lodge in Arizona has brought so much up for so many of us who have attended numerous lodges throughout the years.

It's not easy...and as Deb commented on my blog, we've all done things that could have turned out differently. I attended a "bear lodge" once with 52 rocks and intense intense heat and intense rounds of prayer. We were urged not to open the door and go outside, to suffer for others. My shoulders blistered from the heat. (strangely enough, with no ill effects the next day.) No beginners were allowed in this lodge.

On another day I found myself in a sweat lodge with sixteen men...that was one of the most challenging ever. Every bone in my body wanted to flee that experience! But these kind of experiences can be much bigger than what the ego wants. I suspect Ray may have been aiming for that kind of experience. But something went terribly wrong. Many of the elders who ran the sweat lodges I attended warned that taking money for lodges was so wrong that it could create terrible consequences.

Don't have any answers or definitive opinions here...just a lot of sadness, memories and prayers for everyone involved. Thanks, Deb for linking to my blog. It was a hard one emotionally to write.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:33:56 GMT

Meenakshi,

Dear heart - always good advice in any situation.

Deep bows,
Deb

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:31:03 GMT

Deb, you're right about the importance of finding what is 'true' and not only that, but what is 'right' for ourselves. Even an authentic sweat lodge experience is not for everyone. It is something we've to look within and connect to our higher guides to know. I find that If i set an intention to do what is for the highest good of all concerned; certain things get blocked and others open up. As long as I remember that the blocks and opening and delays are serving the highest good, it is fine. If I forget, and try to force....yes, then I'd better be wary!

During the July 17th Fire the Grid two years back, when there were 'true' and 'false' emails circulating, I asked
How do you know it's true? and the answer I received was
"There is really just a simple answer: What seems true to you? What resonates with you? In the stillness of your heart, what makes you smile?"

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:29:34 GMT

James Arthur Ray has his own blog - Regarding the Recent Events in Sedona. It is also noted that there is a report, credibility unknown, that authorities were also called to the same retreat center in 2005, because one person was unconscious from a sweat lodge experience that was also led by Ray.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:34:06 GMT

Meenakshi,

Thank you so much for this. Yes, I felt that what happened in Sedona was not indicative of what the ritual intends. That was why I said "user beware". Sometimes those who become seekers are yet naive and need some reminders about discernment. I also discovered this morning that Centria / Kathy has written a blog over at word press about this subject too, called - "Sweat lodge memories: fire, rock, lodge, medicine".

I was also reminded that in Elizabeth Lesser's book The Seeker's Guide (pg 54), she writes of an experience she had at the Omega Institute -

"My critical eye has often made me doubt my work on the spiritual front. As moved as I have been by the genuine spiritual teachers I have met through my work, I have also watched, with a mixture of horror and humor, as a parade of pretenders and downright oddballs sold their wares to people looking for quick fixes, magical cures, or eternal youth. In moments of cynicism, especially in its early years, I would look around Omega Institute and wonder if we had created a monster of spiritual pretense. I remember years ago standing in a circle at Omega with more than a hundred people who had come to study with a man who taught Native American spirituality. Wrapped in a blanket and smelling of soil and sage and smoke, the teacher certainly looked the part. He explained to the group in a gravelly voice that until we knew the direction in which we faced, we would never get where we wanted to go. "Now we will pray to the east", he said, "the direction of beginnings, the sun bearer, the white shell dawn." With one hand he held a drum, with the other he held my hand. Pulling me close, he whispered into my ear, "Hey! Which way is east?" And I had other experiences, lots of them, that helped me develop a keen sense of discrimination in my quest for geniune and effective spiritual teachers and practices."

May you each recognize authenticity on your journey and smile knowingly at pretenders. May your experiences bring growth regardless of the reason they manifest.

Peace & Blessings -
Deb

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://Netherlands.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:23:40 GMT

Meenakshi, thank you very much for the article of Chief Arvol Looking Horse.
Having such a deep Inner connection (that I dont quite understand) with the Native Spirit I appreciate the post.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:09:11 GMT

Concerning the deaths in Sedona By Arvol Looking Horse
Story Published: Oct 16, 2009
Story Updated: Oct 16, 2009
As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned for the two deaths and illnesses of the many people who participated in a sweat lodge in Sedona, Ariz. that brought our sacred rite under fire in the news. I would like to clarify that this lodge, and many others, are not our ceremonial way of life because of the way they are being conducted. My prayers go out to the families and loved ones for their loss.

Our ceremonies are about life and healing. From the time this ancient ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of our inikaga (life within) when conducted properly. Today, the rite is interpreted as a sweat lodge. It is much more than that. The term does not fit our real meaning of purification.

Inikaga is the oldest ceremony brought to us by Wakan Tanka (Great Spirit). Nineteen generations ago, the Lakota/Dakota/ Nakota oyate (people) were given seven sacred rites of healing by a Spirit Woman, Pte San Win (White Buffalo Calf Woman). She brought these rites along with the sacred Canupa (pipe) to our people, when our ancestors were suffering from a difficult time. It was also brought for the future to help us for much more difficult times to come. They were brought to help us stay connected to who we are as a traditional cultural people.

The values of conduct are very strict in any of these ceremonies, because we work with spirit. The Creator, Wakan Tanka, told us that if we stay humble and sincere, we will keep that connection with the inyan oyate (the stone people), who we call the Grandfathers, to be able to heal ourselves and loved ones. We have a gift of prayer and healing and have to stay humble with our Unci Maka (Grandmother Earth) and with one another. The inikaga is used in all of the seven sacred rites to prepare and finish the ceremonies, along with the sacred eagle feather. The feather represents the sacred knowledge of our ancestors.
What has happened in the news with the makeshift sauna called the ‘sweat lodge’ is not our ceremonial way of life. Our First Nations people have to earn the right to pour the mini wiconi (water of life) upon the inyan oyate in creating Inikaga by going on the vision quest for four years and four years to Sundance. Then you are put through a ceremony to be painted, to recognize that you have now earned the right to take care of someone’s life through purification. They should also be able to understand our sacred language, to be able to understand the messages from the Grandfathers, because they are ancient, they are our spirit ancestors. They walk and teach the values of our culture in being humble, wise, caring and compassionate.

What has happened in the news with the makeshift sauna called the “sweat lodge” is not our ceremonial way of life.

When you do ceremony, you can not have money on your mind. We deal with the pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for. The Spirit Grandfathers will not be there. Our way of life is now being exploited. You do more damage than good. No mention of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations. When that energy exists, they will not even come. Only after the ceremony, between the person that is being healed and the intercessor who has helped connect with the Great Spirit, can the energy of money be given out of appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private and does not involve the Grandfathers. Whatever gift of appreciation the person who received help can now give is acceptable. They can give the intercessor whatever they feel their healing is worth.

In our prophecy, the White Buffalo Calf Woman told us she would return and stand upon the earth when we are having a hard time. In 1994, this began to happen with the birth of the white buffalo. Not only their nation, but many animal nations began to show their sacred color, which is white. She predicted that at this time there would be many changes upon Grandmother Earth. There would be things that we never experienced or heard of before: Climate changes, earth changes, diseases, disrespect for life and they would be shocking. There would also be many false prophets.

My Grandmother who passed the bundle to me said I would be the last Keeper if the oyate do not straighten up. The assaults upon Grandmother Earth are horrendous, the assaults toward one another was not in our culture, the assaults against our people have been termed as genocide, and now we are experiencing spiritual genocide.

Because of the problems that began to arise with our rebirth and being able to do our ceremonies in the open since the Freedom of Religion Act of 1978, our elders began talking to me about the abuses they have seen in our ceremonial way of life, which was once very strict.

It is forbidden to film or photograph any of our ceremonies.

After many years of witnessing their warnings, we held a meeting to address the lack of protocol in our ceremonies. After reaching an agreement to address the misconduct of our ceremonies and to remind of the proper protocols, a statement was made in March 2003. Every effort was made to ensure our way of life of who we are as traditional cultural people, because these ways are for our future and all life upon Grandmother Earth (Mitakuye Oyasin, all my relations), so that they may have good health. Because these atrocities are being mocked and practiced all over the world, we even made a film called “Spirits for Sale.”

The non-Native people have a right to seek help from our First Nation intercessors for good health and well-being. It is up to that intercessor. That is a privilege for all people that we gift for being able to have good health and understand that their protocol is to have respect and appreciate what we have to share. The First Nations intercessor has to earn that right to our ceremonial way of life in the ways I have explained.

At this time, I would like to ask all nations upon Grandmother Earth to please respect our sacred ceremonial way of life and stop the exploitation of our Tunka Oyate (Spiritual Grandfathers) .

In a Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning, namahu yo (hear my words).

Chief Arvol Looking Horse is the 19th generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle.

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://yhd52754.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:35:07 GMT

Thank you both, Lars & Gilly.

It occurred to me that if the number of those who have participated in sweat lodges without incident were compared to those who have died, the percentage would become insignificant - not that the deaths were insignificant, for any death is an important event.

It seems in question whether Mr Ray erred a bit in pushing these participants to overcome their desire to leave the space. There should have been an "escape" hatch for those who chose that or needed that. So, it may be found that he should have acted differently. And if so, he will be contemplating that for some time to come. Should he have behaved differently?, not that he would ever share such intimate personal considerations publicly.

It also occurred to me that one's state of health should be considered before embarking on such an arduous path and that was the reason that I said in my title - "user beware". I was not judging the experience itself but that we are always responsible for our own selves, our health and its implications for our survival of such a choice. And I am not questioning one remark in the article that they didn't want to come back, for I actually believe that in some cases, that would be true, that they could have at that moment of possible death but chose not to and left this physical life. It can also be in some cases, that the body can not survive because of some defective part that has failed. It is a "vehicle" after all.

It may also be questioned if the space was adequate for that many people. I have always thought of such experiences as being no more than a handful with lots of space in between. So, the oxygen may have been impacted in such a small space with so many people breathing heavily.

Anyway, it is a reminder that personal responsibility - which applies equally to the participants as it does to Mr Ray - never disappears.

Peace & Blessings -
Deb

Re: Sweat Lodge experiences - User beware

http://Gilly.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:23:40 GMT

Never seen the video with this song before and many years ago would just sing along to the song not really taking in the meaning of the words.. Though I understand the words might be perceived in differnt ways, watching the video for me, has remnided me that I too am a fool on the hill, I do watch the sun go down, I sing and feel free at the beach and get wierd looks and so on ;) My behaviour of feeling free and joy, seemingly not appropriate or something to laugh at to many. It also highlights more for me the fool in the tarot, and has given me much thought today.. :)
Why are more of us not the fool at times? I have heard people say, I wanted to get up and just dance, but no one else did so I could not, I wanted to paddle in the water, but I'd look a fool... Yes being a fool, being the self, with respect and feeling free can be a great feeling......