Gaia: Living Metaphysics - Vedanta/ Upanishads - JeevanMuktah: liberated while living

Re: JeevanMuktah: liberated while living: who am I?

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:17:52 GMT

The following four types of feelings arise in the heart of man:
1. I am the body born of my parents
2. I am the subtle atomic principle, different from the body.
3. I am the eternal principle in all the diverse perishable objects in the world
4. the"I" and the "word" are pure void like space.

Of these the first is conducive to bondage and the others to freedom.
~~~~~~~~~~~
From ~The Concise Yoga Vasistha ed. Swami Venkatesananda, P. 177

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones and Karma/action

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 04:14:14 GMT

I'm enjoying a discussion on karma with Lelazjia/Johanna at her Abundance pod.

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:50:14 GMT

Continued:
4 Gatekeepers to Freedom

Re: JeevanMukta: The Liberated One's life

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:22:00 GMT

"Such a person has nothing to acquire, nor anything to shun. He is untainted by the defects of life, untouched by its sorrow.

He does not come into being nor go out, though he appears to come and go in the eyes of the beholder.

Even religious duties are found to be unnecssary. ...His mind has given up its restlessness, and he rests in the bliss that is his essential nature. Such bliss is possible only by self-knowledge, not by any other means. Hence, one should apply oneself constantly to self-knowledge--this alone is one's duty."

~Sage Vasistha to Rama, in "The Concise Yoga Vashistha" translated by Swami Venkatesananda

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:02:38 GMT

Ian, will you believe I thought of you as I wrote this? Wow! Wonderful to see your post..

I hadn't thought of " … .but gifts of self-discovery.”

Which one means:
Gifts that lead to self-discovery?

You've brought another dimension to it.

They are both:
gifts [that come from--->] of self-discovery
and
gifts [that lead to--->] for self -discovery

What's your take on this?

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://ian-maleny.gaia.com — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:42:36 GMT

"I think the answer, is that the right message will come to us at the appropriate time. Which is why these are not religious or didactic texts; but gifts for self-discovery. Like having a non-material guru, who manifests the right teaching and book and shloka or mantra for the right time.

And sometimes, we read of it through each other, and so enhance our journeying."

How true, Meenakshi!
PS.
" . . . .but gifts for self-discovery."
I have a question: Since the new way of writing with reference to the words 'of' and 'for' creates ambiguity could you please clarify whether if by 'for' you meant the old 'of'?
I ask this because the phrase, and therefore the sentence, has a different meaning when each word is used.

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:14:22 GMT

I've been thinking about the interplay of books, texts and other received wisdom with our own journeying.

The most interesting thing about the ancient texts of India; is that they were not written originally; they were passed on verbally. The words, and the sound of them, and also the way of reciting them--were all important. At some stage, for wider dissemination, they were written down; usually without the name of the writer. They were taken to be received wisdom; and not attributed by the writer to himself / herself.

There is so much information in them. The Vedanta Spiritual Library has scores of books online. Some of the words are the same; some different. How do we determine what is right for us?

I think the answer, is that the right message will come to us at the appropriate time. Which is why these are not religious or didactic texts; but gifts for self-discovery. Like having a non-material guru, who manifests the right teaching and book and shloka or mantra for the right time.

And sometimes, we read of it through each other, and so enhance our journeying.

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://johannalyman.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:18:27 GMT

I wholeheartedly agree, Meenakshi, that in being liberated we get to choose which way to reveal the Divine. In some days (like today, with heavy rain and wind although blessedly no snow), I'm taking the inner path. :-)

I'm looking for a really juicy text on Tantra, when I find the right one I'll post more.

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:04:15 GMT

Johanna, I am delighted you posted from Tantric knowledge. Please start a new thread if you'd like to share more; or from a particular book or text or article.

I think that there are two messages which are both necessary as the warp and weft in the weaving of cloth [and BTW, Kabirdas, an Indian mystic, likened our life to a cloth].

Sometimes, we need to expand by taking on everything that we are: I am [each role], I am [each part of personality], I am....etc. till from a little kernel we get the feel of becoming all of the universe. From what you say above, these are tantric teachings.

And at other times, we may go into removing - the roles, bodies, sheaths, feelings, thoughts etc. that the Upanishads teach , are conditionings that are placed on "I". Till we reach that inner One.

Either way, is the One, the I. Whatever we call it.

I guess that to be liberated we take whichever message is coming to us each moment.

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones and Karma/action

http://johannalyman.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:58:16 GMT

And to continue to weave a Tantric thread through this, the tantrika knows that he is both the body and the doer of actions, and the witness who sees all. She then strives to create auspicious action in all that she does, knowing that she cannot escape action (for even inaction is action), she strives to act in a life-affirming way, in a way that honors the Divine presence she knows herself to be.

It could be said that there is no practice in Tantra, that one's entire life is the expression of your divinity, so that whether you are simply breathing, or engaging in a love relationship, or doing your work in the world, or driving your car, that in each of those moments (all NOW moments) you seek to express yourself as God and to recognize God in everyone and everything you encounter.

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://johannalyman.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:52:40 GMT

Here's the blog piece Meenakshi mentioned~

I've been philosophizing with myself about Tantra for the past few weeks, and would love to get a conversation going with others besides the voices in my own head. :-) I've been studying Tantric Philosophy for the past year as I've deepened my yoga practice and begun Anusara Yoga teacher training. I think some of my friends out here are tantrikas, so I'd love to hear from you!

For several years, I've resonated with the word BOTH when I think about my mission in life. I first understood it to mean being BOTH connected to Source AND fully living on earth, and I've been delving deeper into that concept each year. Then this past year, I had the great fortune to sit for two days at the feet of Paul Muller-Ortega absorbing his brilliance on Tantric philosophy, and I realized I was Home. I had finally found the words and the container, so to speak, for what I've always felt in my soul.

I've always rebelled at the idea that to find God, one has to withdraw from society, renounce all worldly pleasures, turn within and block out the world. Why on earth would we have agreed to come to earth only to renounce all the juiciness of being on earth? We can be out of body and in Spirit any old time; being incarnated and playing in the school of Life on Earth is truly a special treat. Shouldn't we make the most of it? HOW can we make the most of it?

Tantric philosophy suggests that Everything is God (Shiva). There is nothing in the cosmos that is not God; everything that IS, is God. Shiva takes Himself and slows down His vibration enough to take form, and He takes a myriad of forms so that He can observe Himself from a myriad of angles and know Himself better. As He slows down his vibration and takes form, these forms (some of which are human) become cloaked in Maya (illusion), so that we forget that we are God. And the whole cosmic purpose of this game is to see how cloaked we can become and still Remember who we really are. It becomes a dance of forgetting and remembering, and absolutely everything we do can become a tool for enlightenment, for remembering. Everything is sacred, or can be. In my first blog post, I mentioned going to the store and looking into people's eyes. It's a Tantric game called "Do You Remember?" Ok, I just made that up.
:-) But that's really what it is--looking into another's eyes to find the God within. You can't play the game when you don't remember yourself in that moment.

Who wants to play this great cosmic game with me now?
Love to all,
Johanna

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones: [conclusion]

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 04:17:19 GMT

The Tattva Bodhah concludes thus:

Thus the knower of the Self, having crossed samsara, attains Supreme Bliss here itself...goes beyond all sorrow...At the moment of gaining knowledge, [and not only at death], he is liberated, freed form the results of his actions.

Iti tattvabodhaprakaranam samaptam
~~~Here ends the introductory text called Awakening to Reality~~~

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones and Karma

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 04:10:14 GMT

Sanchita karma is destroyed by the firm knowledge : I am Brahman alone."

The jiva is a finite entity which identifies with the body, owns all its actions and collects them to be enjoyed in the present and future births. This feeling of finitude is born from the ignorance of one's true nature.

On gaining the knowledge :' I am the infinite Consciousness', the false notion that I am the finite, changing, suffering entity is destroyed. There remains no individuality that owns actions or identifies with the body to enjoy or suffer them.

Therefore the entire capital of actions becomes null and void. It cannot give results.

The subtle body of the ignorant/ non-liberated man, propelled by the causal body--force of previous actions--leaves the gross body to take up a new body according to the results of actions that have fructified [Prarabdha karma].

The subtle body of the wise/liberated man merges with its five subtle constituents as there is no propelling force to give it direction or hold it together. It is destroyed by the knowledge of the Self. There is no more birth for him.

Space appears conditioned by a pot. Once the pot breaks, the pot space merges with the total space. There is no actual merging. Space was always one and all-pervading even when the pot existed.

The agami karma [our current actions and their results] is also destroyed by knowledge ad the wise/liberated man is not affected by it; as a lotus leaf is not affected by the water on it. [This is beautifully detailed in the Bhagvad Gita that Eli has referenced on another post].

What happens to the results of the liberated one's actions?

To those who praise, serve and worship the wise/liberated man, go the results of the actions done by him.

To those who criticise, hate or cause pain to the wise man go the results of all unpraiseworthy and sinful actions done by the wise man.

The wise man may take certain actions that are painful to others but have meritorious results [like a surgeon's scalpel inflicting pain to incise a tumor]. ..His actions always spring from good intentions.... He himself has no likes and dislikes, friends and enemies. He sees all as himself, therefore, he does not will that the results of his actions go to any particular person. The results are distributed according to ..the will of the Totality.

One who has value for knowledge and ideals, whose mind is pure and subtle, recognises the greatness of the wise man. They revere and serve him not for getting merits but for the supreme knowledge or out of gratitude.... Others look at the wise man from their own ignorance and super-impose their prejudices on him...

[Ultimately, the results come from our own actions, and reactions to another, whom we deem to be wise or unwise.]
~~~~
~Sri Adi Sankaracharya, : Tattva Bodha: Awakening to Reality; Commentary by Swami Tejomayananda

[Words in parentheses are mine]
[Interestingly, we have the same analogy here as in Amrita Bindu Upanishad that we'd discussed on this board earlier this year].

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones and Karma/action

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 06:29:25 GMT

The ignorant man performs actions -- karma-- with the feeling that "I am the doer [karta]" and therefore he becomes the enjoyer and sufferer of the results.

The realised soul knows that he is not the body nor the doer of actions, nor the enjoyer/sufferer of results; and is therefore free from the bondage of actions.

Also, having attained supreme Bliss there is no more to be attained and therefore no more to be done. He may perform assumed duties, but with complete detachment. We perform actions compelled from within by a sense of incompleteness. The jeevanmukta performs actions out of a sense of fulfillment and love for all. This is not freedom from action but rather freedom in action.

~Swami Tejomayananda's commentary of Tattva Bodhah, Awakening to Reality

Re: JeevanMuktah: double consciousness

http://ian-maleny.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:03:37 GMT

I LIKE THAT!!
()

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 04:09:55 GMT

[Johanna has begun a blog on Tantra; and perhaps a discussion can be brought here later. We're seeing how it develops. ]

I'm surprised in how manyplaces, the concept of jivanmukta is described.

"He appears to be subject to likes, dislikes and fear, but in fact he is as free as space. He is free from egotism and volition; and his intelligence is unattached whether in action or in inaction. None is afraid of him; he is afraid of none."
~~~~~~~~~~~
~The Concise Yoga Vasistha ed. by Swami Venkatesananda

Re: JeevanMukta; Recognizing a Liberated Human

http://johannalyman.gaia.com — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 03:08:01 GMT

Indeed, I believe many who would be Jivanmukta get tripped up in the siddhis, ensnared and beguiled by the miracles in that realm. (I count myself among that lot!)

Meenakshi, I'd love to discuss the similarities and differences between the Vedanta and Tantra with you--not sure if this is the right forum but it fascinates me!

Love to you,

Johanna

Re: JeevanMukta; Recognizing a Liberated Human

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 02:42:45 GMT

It is very difficult to judge a Jivanmukta. ... Only a Jivanmukta with his eye of intuition (Divya Drishti) can directly see and understand a Jivanmukta.

One cannot estimate the advancement of a Jivanmukta by a simple casual talk for an hour or two. One has to live with him for a long time and then alone one will be able to draw some accurate conclusions. There had been instances of realised persons who had elephants, horses and all royal paraphernalia without being affected in the least by these external objects. They had always Jnana Nishta and Svaroopa Stithi (established in knowledge of Brahman) amidst multifarious activities. This is the integral development. This is the gist of the Bhagvad Gita. This is the central teaching of Lord Krishna.

Do not look into the external things of a Jivanmukta. Always look into his internal mental state.

Do not judge a man by his Siddhis (psychic powers). Siddhis are side-lights. They have nothing to do with Atmic realisation. .When a Jivanmukta exhibits Siddhis [it is] purely for the elevation and uplift of the world, but never for selfish motives.

Many do not recognise a Jivanmukta. Real aspirants know him at once without any difficulty. They follow him. They live in close contact with him.

[More to come]

~From "How To Recognise A Jivanmukta" By Sri Swami Sivananda

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated One:subtle

http://Meenakshi.gaia.com — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:48:05 GMT

Alan, I enjoy reading that too: "subtle indicative methods"--it is one of the ways out of each of the written words of the Vedanta.

That we can read and listen to words about what is real; but to really "get it", is beyond all that while being within all that.

That it is the person or the consciousness with which we come into these teachings that indicate what we get out of them, or what we bring to them.

While we are reading, we take awareness back to: who is reading this?

Re: JeevanMuktah: The Liberated Ones

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:41:20 GMT

Thank you for posting this, Meenakshi, I enjoyed reading it greatly.

Something that particularly struck me was this:

"The words of Vedanta reveal our true nature. Since the Self canot be known as an object of knowledge, it has to be revealed by subtle indicative methods. The language used in the Vedas is therefore mystical."

I think: yes! And I also I'm very curious about the "subtle indicative methods." I feel it's very true... subtle methods are necessary. It's almost like another way of life...