A few thoughts...

Thanks for starting this pod and sharing what worked for you. I did want to share some of my own experience here as a counterperspective.

For many years I did all this work on manifesting the soulmate. I will not go into certain specifics but sufficed to say met a man who was everything I envisioned (and then some) but it did not work out. A healer I work with who is very psychic and has successfully predicted things for me in the past told me that I had a soul agreement to be with this man, but he is reneging on the agreement at the moment because he is off his life path. She said maybe we would get together in about 10 years, and she didn't see anyone else for me for the most part.

Whether or not this is true, after much meditation and soulsearching I want to share the following:

1. Having a soulmate relationship is a two-way street, and if your soulmate isn't on board then no amount of work you do on yourself will help until s/he is ready.

2. Some of us were not meant to be in a life-long relationship with just one person, and that does not mean there is something wrong with us or something not “right” about the less than “permanent” relationships we do have.

3. I'm not entirely certain we have just one soulmate to begin with.

I may not have the life I envisioned with Mr. Perfect, and being alone can be tough sometimes, but on the other hand, there are things that I am learning and doing that I might not otherwise if I were married and having babies right now.

It has been my observation that women who do marry and have children tend to put most of their energies into their families. And yes, this is a wonderful thing.

I am, however, very grateful for all the time I have right now to put into my projects. I have just started creating music and doing other things that it would be hard to find the time for with a family.

Before you stop me and say - hey, maybe you are holding yourself back from a family out of fear of not having time for yourself - no, I really would be happy either way. I'm just saying there are different things to fulfill you, and you get the opportunity to be more creative in other ways if you do not have your own family at the moment.

Because of all this and everything I have learned, I will not be putting energies into trying to “manifest” my soulmate anymore. I have tried all the tricks in the book and they just did not work for me.

This work may be helpful to others, so I do encourage people to give it a try. Don't think there is something wrong with you or you are less than if you don't have the “perfect” relationship. It's really OK either way.

That's all…carry on!

:-)

PS I will tell you a secret - while the man may not be here physically right now, he's here spiritually. So I'm really not alone.

Re: A few thoughts...

Ozma, thanks so much for your rich post – I want to respond to many things – first, I don't believe there's necessarily one person in the world for each of us – I'd just like to find someone I resonate well with – I'd much rather be alone than be in a bad relationship

I also don't think it's wrong or “less than” to be in a number of relationships as opposed to one – there's no telling why some people have one very long-term relationship in which both people are able to evolve, and why others have a series of relationships, each one a big chunk of learning – a friend of mine calls herself a serial monogamist and attaches no shame or guilt to it – it's just her path – I would like to find someone I resonate well with who grows at the same rate I do – I haven't found that person yet, so time and again I've ended up feeling boxed in by expectations that I should slow down or quit advocating for working on the relationship

I don't believe that having a healthy relationship is or necessarily should be linked with being married and having children – I got my tubes tied when I was 29, and I've been clear for all of my adult life that having children would take me away from my true work (both because it would eat up too much of my energy and because it would run counter to my temperament – and if I'm here for anything, it's to live as true to myself as possible) – I also don't see marriage as a necessary part of the picture – I wrote a blog post on that topic here – the short version is that for me, marriage is an archaic model from which to build a relationship – the model of an egalitarian partnership is much more to my liking (whatever works for others is fine for them – no judgments)

with all of that said, the process of “manifesting my soulmate” is, for me, just another way of purifying myself and continuing to release old energy and outmoded ways of being – I'm committed to doing everything in my power to support my evolution – and I completely trust the Universe to connect me with the right people (friends, partner(s), teachers, coaching clients, etc.) to support the process – kind of like matching funds   :)

Re: A few thoughts...

Hi Kira, I love your last paragraph in particular, as well as Ozma's thoughtful post. 
I'd be lying to myself if I wrote that I am not interested in finding a soulmate, but i'm trying to not have that be the goal.  Making a few lists will help me understand my own desires better (I do get distracted and love tangents) and maybe the end will be that I realize that single life is the best thing for me.  As difficult as they have been at times, romantic relationships have been some of the most profound learning experiences I've had.  Maybe “manifesting my soulmate” will lead to the same richness in more platonic relationships, or with my guitar, horn, skis…
Thank you, Patrick

Re: A few thoughts...

hi Patrick,

your post sparked a few thoughts for me – one is that as much as nonattachment is a lovely thing, I’ve never in my life experienced anything to compare with being completely present and open [okay, and naked :) ] with someone I love deeply – I’ve had other experiences of being deeply present (e.g., while being in the presence of whales and certain other wildlife, coaching clients, leading women’s groups, and doing art therapy), and all of those have been amazing “highs” – but none of them is as soul stirring as making love with someone I’m open/present and deeply in tune with – so as much as I can say I’m okay with wherever the Universe wants my life to go, I’d be lying if I said I don’t want to experience that bliss with a partner again

in fact, I’d go so far as to say that that was one of the gifts of my last relationship – both the experience itself and the realization that that energy lives in me and isn’t just something that “belonged” to my ex – I view it as an opening of a capacity in me for love and passion, and I don’t believe it was a fluke – I think we often have a taste of wholeness in our lives that spurs us on to invite it into our lives more – I got a taste of what I call my deep feminine aspect, and I’m absolutely devoted to learning how to embrace that energy more – I’m also committed to doing whatever inner work is necessary to find and share that level of openness, love, and wholeness with someone else (hopefully someone I’m better matched with!)

also, it seems to happen in my life that I go through periods of soul growth where platonic relationships are my “partner” for a time (i.e., the person I have my deepest lessons with) – I’ve experienced this with a few friends and also with a family member, and even with a job at one point – my greatest lessons at various points in my life seemed to focus on a connection that wasn’t romantic – and I can see how the same might be true for one’s relationship with a sport, musical instrument, or other things

Re: A few thoughts...

“but none of them is as soul stirring as making love with someone I’m open/present and deeply in tune with”

And yet, I've had that experience with men who I was having a so-called “meaningless sexual relationship” with. Does it have to be with just this ONE that you experience the connection?

My last “relationship” was a casual one with a man 12 years younger. He and I didn't have a lot in common, we were both in it for sex more than anything else, and this was definitely not “going” anywhere.

Yet, spirit guided me to go out with him. He used to work at my gym, and one day, while doing my weight training upstairs, I heard a little voice in my head go “Finish your workout NOW.”

Well, I had nowhere to go and no place to be, so this puzzled me but I complied and finished my workout a little earlier than intended.

On the way downtairs I bumped into this man. He saw me and his face lit up and he introduced himself. We were involved for about 6-7 months.

We were not in love with each other, though I was quite fond of him. The sex was extremely passionate and amazing (at least for me). He was from the other side of the tracks and not someone I would “normally” consider for a partner. He was not a college grad, he had no car, he was only 24, he had been in a gang in high school (broke a guy's leg, apparently, but didn't kill anyone), etc. But he was also intelligent and had surprising depth to him, even though he was generally spending his time as 24 year old good-looking men do in Los Angeles (running around and having a good time).

There are many connections out there and I absolutely do not downplay the brief ones nor feel that I only have to be with the mystical “one” to experience an amazing sense of connection and openness.

Re: A few thoughts...

I say this with all respect and no judgment – I have no interest whatsoever in being sexual with anyone I don’t have a very deep, soulful connection with – I’m not saying I need a guarantee that the person is THE ONE forever and ever – just that I don’t choose to be sexually open to/with anyone I’m not in love with and exploring a long-term relationship with – this wasn’t the case when I was younger, but it’s definitely where I’m at now

Re: A few thoughts...

“I have no interest whatsoever in being sexual with anyone I don’t have a very deep, soulful connection with”

Who said I didn't have a deep soul connection with the man? Just because I was not madly in love with him does not mean there was no soul connection. Do you have to be in love with someone to have a soul connection with them?

I have soul connections with eveyone I have sex with. By definition.

But then again, we ALL have soul connections with each other.

:-)

Re: A few thoughts...

sorry I didn’t choose my words carefully enough – I don’t have any interest in being sexual with anyone I’m not in love with and exploring the possibility of a long-term relationship with

and while on some level it may be true that we all have soul connections with each other, I would not say that I have deep soul connections with a lot of people – it’s fairly rare that I meet someone I resonate deeply with

Re: A few thoughts...

Hi everyone, Welcome, and thanks for the active posting today! Wow, a lot for me to take in, and only have a few minutes to say a couple of things here but didn’t want to delay too long!

First of all, I realized that I should share more of my background and story, which I intended to but haven’t found the time as of yet, so I will do that in the “Your Stories” thread I also had started. Please check out that to get a little more about me and where I’m coming from too…

First off, I agree that Soulmate is a loose term, a soul friend, man, woman, lover, buddy, companion, another in your serial monogamous lifestyle…you choose your definition! I never intended for my soulmate to be a husband, didn’t care, but it ended up feeling right after 5 years…and I definitely don’t believe that there is only one soulmate for each person in the entire Universe…no way! That’s too small of thinking for me! Makes it seem too impossible–what if that person happens to be in another country around the world and you’ve never been there??

Ozma, I completely agree with you that having a soulmate is a two way street and you both have co-created the relationship. I happened to create a first marriage where my husband was bent on ruining his life and mine with it. I had to get out no matter how much I loved him at one time… I was very disillusioned with the whole b.s. of the “American Dream” and swore I’d never get married again!

Well, you are right also about the work you do on yourself too. And part of the work you do on yourself to manifest your soulmate which I suggest here, is that the writings are about the characteristics you MUST have in your soulmate and how you want to feel in the presence of your soulmate. Attract what you MOST WANT AND DESIRE IN YOUR life partner, soul friend, companion, whatever you want that person to be is whatever you can work on manifesting. If you want someone to spend the rest of your 60 or 80 or more years on this planet in this lifetime with, then so be it. If you want someone here, now for however long it lasts, then fine. Manifest someone to only have safe amazing sex with whenever you want to…. It’s all about you! Really, to be honest, this is all about doing inner work to see what you bring into being on the outside.

You want time for yourself, to have your life, a sense of independence, GREAT! We do not have to limit ourselves in what we attract… Stay positive. I always had the belief, mostly based on my parent’s relationship, that relationship/marriage was limiting, actually a TRAP, you had to sacrifice yourself/your life/your desires to be with someone else. I still struggle with that belief…but it’s just a belief that I can choose to let go of if I want to let go of it. (And do the work to let go of it!) I decided to choose something different for my relationship…to do it differently, to feel more freedom within the relationship. I wanted to feel like the relationship gave me freedom, sexually, artistically, etc.

I hope these words help to bring a little more clarity to where I’m coming from. Please understand that by no means do I believe that I’m some guru or master or have something over anyone else. I have been asked by so many people about how I met my partner because people are often impressed with him (especially women who think there are no men like him “out there”) and our relationship, so I wanted to share what we both did–he and I both worked on these ideas and getting clarity and creative manifestation…

I will leave you with this final thought: Create whatever you want to create in your life for your relationships. Empower yourself, think WAY outside the box, ask for the entire package, shoot for the moon….you may be surprised and delighted, you may be dismayed for a time, you may never get the “whole package” but some variation and will learn TONS from that relationship…. But as Ozma closed with, though he isn’t here physically right now, he is spiritually!

In Love and Light, Laurie

Re: A few thoughts...

Hi All,

I’d like to add some of my thoughts here to what everyone’s been sharing. This other person in our lives we’re currently referring to as a soulmate, as far as I can tell, can come in more than one person as Laurie and possibly others have suggested. I currently feel that we attract and live out relationships with people who are mirroring aspects of ourselves, much as dreams do. Also, I think our friends and partners bring to light in us things that we have yet to discover about ourselves. For a while someone may be just what you want and need, while later in life this person may well be exactly that which you no longer need, and actually become (through either your own or their growth) that which is a hinderance in your own life’s path–meaning no necessary blame or fault … just two people growing in different ways, one out-growing the other, or merely either or both of you changing intentions (consciously or unconsciously).

Love, to me anyway, and chemistry, is a complete mystery. It’s really seemingly quite magical and mysterious. To be rather vulnerable here, I’ve been married three times in my life. I believed at the time and/or throughout the term of each relationship that each one of these women were my soulmates. And let me say here, that in my opinion marriage is not a necessity. It can be an out-picturing expression of a couple’s agreements, which can also be a very beautiful thing. I also think and feel that it sets up some energetic bonds that can be slightly different than might be otherwise.

As I wrote to Laurie previously outside this forum, I took some time in creating a list of characteristics which I was looking for in a mate before finding my last wife. I spent, I think, a couple months adding to and editing this list. This led to a wonderful loving marriage of 20 years and a beautiful child. It also led to many years of healing for me and for my other two children from my previous marriage.

So, my thoughts as I can make them relevant herein … in retrospect and from my heart–it would seem to me, from experience, that our lives, our souls, have issues to resolve … both quests and unfinished business. Desires. Wants. Some karma as well. I think it’s all a mixture myself. The people we draw to ourselves … they bring us something. We (WE) … must have our eyes, our ears, our hearts … open to receive the input which these special people we call our partners–albeit/them friends, lovers, platonic friends, hopeful-wanta-bee-mates … or what-have-you.

I’ve met a few ladies in the last couple of years with whom we’ve attempted deep significant relationships–LTR have you. Although in the end these hoped for relationships have not fulfilled our ultimate dreams, both they and I have spent some of the finest mutually supportive, healing and insightful time together. This “form” was not what I sought out (as I wanted more permanence). But it was the way it happened. I still love these women as souls and for who they are and for what they brought to my life. In one way I ask. what more could I ask for.

Still, for me–and this I acknowledge is a personal choice–I would love to find yet another woman who one day would remain constant in my life and I in hers, in heart, soul, intellect, spirit, and chemistry. It just may take some work in achieving such a close-to-perfect friendship with another human being. For me I have found an understanding that the more you evolve, the more idiosyncrasies you develop. The more idiosyncrasies you develop the more unique you have become and the more unique of a relationship you will be attempting to draw to you. We must not forget to embrace and love our uniqueness and vulnerability in this process. As others have said here, we cannot give ourselves up in order to make do in a relationship. However, I offer hope and camaraderie in the idea that we all can one day find companionship … for as I have read through here, again in my opinion or understanding, some form of friendship and/or companionship is one of the cherished things that we are seeking in our soulmate relationship. Even in those whose words expressed disappointment, failure, or resultant lack of interest or faith or bother … I believe it is our nature to seek and have companionship. For me, I would like that to take form in another close intimately shared human friendship and partnership soul-to-soul, and body-to-body, mind-to-mind and heart-to-heart.

Re: A few thoughts...

Sorry–I should add a clarification here. I do acknowledge that having this type of soulmate relationship is not actually necessary or desired by everyone. I guess my thoughts here would be relevant to those of us who are in hopes of finding this sort of relationship with another, and I’d like to acknowledge what I believe has already been said by other members here–that many people find meaningful relationships in their lives without the sort of ties or connections commonly associated with what we’re calling a soulmate. So I’m sorry if I came across in sounding like everyone ought to be on the lookout for their soulmate.

Re: A few thoughts...

Tony, thanks for your rich post – I completely agree with you about how we attract relationships that mirror parts of ourselves, both parts that may need healing and undiscovered strengths and gifts – it's been my experience that I immerse myself in a relationship and embrace the lessons, and then it feels as though the bond dissipates – in my last relationship, I wanted to explore whether it was possible to go beyond that point and rekindle the connection at a higher level, but he wasn't interested in putting any energy into it

many wise people in the field of relationship psychology talk about relationship stages – David Schnarch, in the book Passionate Marriage, talks about couples going through a stage called differentiation (also called individuation by some) – my last partner and I got to that stage but couldn't maintain a state of differentiation while still being connected, so the relationship fell apart – I'm reeeeeeally curious to experience the next step after differentiation – I've never been with someone who was intrigued enough with the possibility of an egalitarian, sustainable intimate relationship to do the work – and it's also true that I wasn't ready to fully do that work until this last relationship, but the relationship had some fatal flaws that made it impossible – I'm definitely hoping and intending for my next relationship to be one that can go all the way in exploring what's possible between two people who love each other deeply

I like what you said about how significant relationships can be a source of wonderful mutual support, healing, and insights – I don't believe we get any guarantees about how long a relationship will last with a particular person, but I find it inspiring and comforting to think about how we exchange powerful soul gifts and help each other evolve

like you, I hope to find someone to have a lasting relationship with – I feel that it's part of my path – my previous long-term relationships feel as though they were the college and graduate school of relationships – I want to take all that great learning into the world and live it

I'm interested to know what exactly you meant regarding marriage when you wrote this:
I also think and feel that it sets up some energetic bonds that can be slightly different than might be otherwise.
I believe this is true, which is some of why I haven't ever married – I posted a link earlier in this thread to an essay I wrote about why I'm not married, which includes some thoughts about how I think marriage can change things – but I'd be interested to hear your take on it

Re: A few thoughts...

I realized that some of what I and we’ve discussed here in this thread is also being touched upon in other threads in this pod.

Thanks for your kind words Kira. As you mentioned immersing yourself in your relationship(s) and being willing to embrace the lessons … only to find the bond of that relationship dissipating–I can relate. As might seem obvious (but one never knows, as you know what they say about “assume!”) the desires and bonds can dissipate from either or both sides of the relationship, and depending upon which partner you ask, you may come up with different answers. This can be a real quagmire, and once a relationship loses its magical magnetism and chemistry it would seem there’s not high hopes of its returning to a building and mutually supportive and mutually investigative caldron of enthusiastic participation. Interests just gets lost.

To me, I think a good relationship works when both people entering into it are mature in their own right, in their own realms. There has to be sufficient chemistry both in the beginning, as well as mutually sustained throughout the life of the relationship–being an entity of in its own right. This is nothing new I suppose. I enjoyed your comment from David Schnarch’s book, Passionate Marriage, discussing the state couples going through, individuation–for it is no doubt at this very same point that my long marriage began to fall apart as well. At that point, which for us, may have taken a longer time than many do for the dissipation process to gel, the signs of no return became more obvious and what was once a relationship that cycled back around to the healing and mending and rebuilding phase were evermore present. Once the magic begins going out the door, the couple no doubt had better get ahold of the reigns and pull it all together, or be conscious enough to address the situation and begin to let it go in peace. I am so very happy and appreciative of those partners who can be conscious–and then though … we find quite a variety of how and about which things a person can or is willing to be conscious about. Self deception and acceptance of personal responsibility is so so crucial right here. The World of Individuation can allow for a lot of variables, and it takes some strong bonds of love, respect, appreciation, compassion, chemistry, appropriateness, knowing ones self/Self, integrity and impeccability … a good memory intact for all the places and work that’s gone on in the relationship … to evolve into and through this phase. As we individuate though, just what can we do about our own growth and self-realizations? In today’s world there is so much going on. Relationships of days gone by were only lasting the length of a decent marriage of today’s standards. People before didn’t have all the choices, challenges and things in which to individuate upon. We began living in the Information Society some time ago, and it seems we just can no longer hold a partner’s feet to the fire on those “going-into-the-relationship” commitments as we used to feel was appropriate. It’s quicker and easier to throw in the towel and say goodbye than it is to build a beautiful solid relationship. Our culture has instilled in us the philosophy of instant gratification, along with the Consumer Society … aka the Throw-Away Society. But hell … realistically speaking … we many times just do outgrow our partners, or they us.

This leaves me with a feeling of insecurity. A relationship–even the hope of one–is a very very fragile thing. Again in today’s world are we taught or encouraged to value fragility? I don’t think so. Carpe diem! is the motto our day. We’re constantly bombarded with the Yang-point-of-view in so many ways. We also take things for granted that we might not ought to. Has sensitivity fallen from being in vogue?

So to get back to your idea of two deeply loving people exploring the phase of individuation–we first must really get down to the core of whether or not these two people really do in fact “deeply love” each other. Façades and self-deception, unconscious and unknown issues must be understood and honestly dealt with. Love is free is part of the equation … and with a loving, conscious, compassionate and conscientious partner, we can hope that all the right things will happen. It’s when we feel betrayed and not treated with respect, appreciation and the other things I just mentioned that it rather blows our boat out of the water. So I look for a partner these days in whom I can see their ability to hold such qualities to begin.

The exchange of soulful gifts and the mutual assistance in individual and relationship growth is crucial to the survival of a good or great relationship. Sitting down with each other when there are matters of the heart to discuss–even if that must take place after a breather period is a must. The relationship is the mirror. Definitely. So love that person and try to understand their concerns and their story. Make sure they’re listening with their mind and their heart as well to yours.

You asked about my comment: I also think and feel that it sets up some energetic bonds that can be slightly different than might be otherwise. Well, this is both speculative and experiential on my part … a bit esoteric maybe. I’ve experienced and witnessed in others’ relationships/marriages as well, that once a couple enters into the state of marriage that there seems to be another deeper energetic swirl of the Cosmic swizzle stick. The partners’ energies seem to come together in more of unified entity called “the marriage.”

Some have called it a relationship angel–the idea that we create an angel who watches over us … the more we put into the relationship the stronger the angel grows, etc. Now this would be for those who entertain such concepts. But in effect … changes, issues begin to crop up, reappear … things are more in your face so to speak.

There are concepts too in another tradition you may have heard of called Human Design. Human Design (of which I have very limited knowledge personally–but some introductory understanding) which combines Astrology, I-Ching, genetic code, and the Qabalah (Kabbalah) / Tree of Life, and chakras has an elaborate system of theory on how our energies connect, contribute and draw from each other while in relationship. You’ll have to dig a bit to encounter this part (referring to how two people’s energies work off each others)–but it’s fascinating how we share energetics with another while in relationship (which does not necessitate the institution of marriage). However I am under the belief that the energetic commitments made through the ceremony of marriage makes all within the relationship all the more powerful–and again as we say … ” … (for) better or worse!” : ) For those of you who are interested in further pursuit–there are a variety of people out there dealing with Human Design for which you can go here for more: Gene Keys and Human Design UK for starters. I’m not particularly endorsing them here, but I found it pretty fascinating (for both individual and partnership inquiries) and have experienced some of the effects in a relationship of the “shared” experiential energies–the borrowing / sharing / blending of each others energy fields. Sorry if this seems a bit off track here–but I’m sharing in context to blending of energies occurring in relationships.

Other thoughts pop up for me on the other side regarding the commitment(s) made via Marriage too though. Seems all things return to the personal commitment, the integrity, the maturity, the intentions, the self-discipline and the true wishes of each individual in a relationship, whether married or not. Seems there are just no real hard reassurances. At some point we have to invest ourselves under the best guidance of our hearts and minds we’ve come to achieve, and just punt! The Cosmos may have agendas for us on a grander scale than we can perceive at a given time. For me, I do my best to love, to hold an open heart and mind, to encourage, to find peace and love for what *I* do. And I look for someone who can mirror back to me something–someONE–I’d like to deal with … both as found in them as well as in myself. We can really only Be our best person for us. When we can do that in our own “individuation” maybe, just maybe, we can attract or encounter another who’s at the same stage of evolution or personal development.

With Love to All of You out there!
Tony

Re: A few thoughts...

very interesting post, Tony, and lots of thoughts in response

this really jumped out at me:
I think a good relationship works when both people entering into it are mature in their own right, in their own realms.

that makes perfect sense to me, and it's certainly the ideal, but how can we ever really know this about another person? of course, there are certain basics that are hopefully clear to anyone with a certain degree of maturity, but I don't think we ever really know the extent to which another person is truly mature – we each have a shadow, and a soul-stirring relationship is going to activate aspects of our shadow in ways we can't predict – I'm reading an interesting book that has something very relevant to this:

You cannot predict or stop the sort of eruptions in a partner's unconscious that can cause even the seemingly nicest person to suddenly betray you, [and] to be fair, nor can you completely control your own. This is part of the unpredictability of life and of the human psyche.

[this is from The Highly Sensitive Person in Love by Elaine Aron – I'm highly sensitive, and I'm learning some really useful stuff from reading this book]

much of my wondering about “maturity” comes from personal experience in previous relationships – I'm not free to go into details (my last partner is part of this community), but I don't think it's necessarily easy to assess the extent of a person's maturity – I'd love to hear your take on this

also (I may have said this elsewhere in this pod already), I think it often happens that we have a certain set of lessons that bring us together with a certain person, and when those lessons are complete, the “juice” of the relationship dissipates – just last night I had a powerful dream about my last relationship in which I got a clear sense that his essential gift to me was to help me learn to be more embodied – gift gratefully received, relationship complete – (I'm certain the gift exchange was fair and that he received what he needed, too – again, sorry to be so vague)

I think, too, that what can seem like a brick wall at the end of one relationship can serve as a strong foundation for the next one – my ex-partner and I achieved a sense of individuation in our relationship and lost our bond as a result – I feel confident that I'll bring that sense of individuation into my next relationship, not as a goal to work toward but as a foundation for a stronger and healthier relationship than my last one – I internalized lots of rich lessons about being true to myself

I really like what you said here:
The World of Individuation can allow for a lot of variables, and it takes some strong bonds of love, respect, appreciation, compassion, chemistry, appropriateness, knowing ones self/Self, integrity and impeccability … a good memory intact for all the places and work that’s gone on in the relationship … to evolve into and through this phase.

and about this question you asked (and what you wrote after it):
As we individuate though, just what can we do about our own growth and self-realizations?
– for me, part of the challenge is to be clear that it's not my job to hold my partner's feet to the fire – it's my job to hold my own feet to the fire – choosing a partner who shares that attitude, and who can really walk the talk, is super-important to me

thanks for the clarification about the “relationship angel” – I've heard this expressed similarly, and I experienced some of this, even though I've never been married, after having a commitment ceremony with my last partner – I much prefer the idea of a commitment ceremony to the idea of marriage because I think a lot of other “stuff” (like traditional roles) can get attached to a marriage due to it being a very old institution that was founded on the basis of women being men's property – I think there's some sticky stuff in the collective unconscious around that old template that I'm not too wild about participating in

I definitely agree with what you said here:
The Cosmos may have agendas for us on a grander scale than we can perceive at a given time.
and I wonder sometimes how much choice we really have – sometimes it feels to me as though the Universe puts someone right in front of my nose with a huge flashing neon sign saying “pick this one!” and it's absolutely clear to me that the right next step is to go for it – it's always a huge risk to open up to another person, but the alternative feels to me a bit like living in a vacuum

I haven't responded to everything in your post that I'd like to respond to, but I'm getting lost in words and thoughts, so enough for now

peace,
Kira

Re: A few thoughts...

Well, Kira, as I’ve progressed I’ve found that I’ve naturally attracted people, in general, who were more mature … as I matured. More compassionate as I’ve softened and become more compassionate. As things changed in me, the reflection showed up in the women that showed up in my life. These newer possibilities (the women) have brought more love and light and insight into my life, which has stayed around – and which I honor as a gift from that person to me. Something I’ve come to really appreciate as a result of the honesty, love and support we mutually shared.

In another thread in this Pod you and others were discussing the things to let go of – and as well, there are those good things which were beneficial, born out of the relationship, that I don’t think we need to rid ourselves of. Of course each relationship and former partner is going to be different, and we may find that by degree we wish to rid more or less respectively to the specific conditions and memories … and that idea expressed in that other thread – the idea of how it makes us feel as we imagine being with and/or expressing the story behind items (tangible or intangible) that we’ve carried forward as part of our lives from these previous people and relationships.

But back to “how do we know” about this person? And yes – you’re right, we all have a shadow side (as well as a conscious side in Spirit), and each new person (as you pointed out, and I agree with) is going to trigger us in new and sometimes unexpected ways (and us them). You’ve made some interesting points, and I would like to, if nothing else, validate what you’ve said from your March 17th post – we just can’t predict what we or our other will come up with in reaction. Again … the more we work on maturity (in my opinion and my experience) the better we’re going to do for sure, and hopefully the better the person we attract into our life will as well.

A conscious relationship, founded in trust and open communication, and a feeling of resonance when it comes to what appear to be deeper or seemingly hidden issues is a good indicator, I’ve found … a barometer, of sorts in testing the waters with someone you might be considering from the get-go. I watch and feel, as unobtrusively and compassionately as I can, just how another reacts to the small things, the mid-size, and the more important issues that arise … all along the way. For me, I try not to lose my observer to what’s going on … while attempting to maintain a balance of perspective between being aware of potential pitfalls, and, only seeing through the rose colored glasses. Projection through conditioning of fears of the past aren’t good, but you also have to objectively and prudently use your own smarts about signs that may suggest problem areas. Hopefully, our partners are willing and capable of listening to our side as well as they are offering their thoughts, feelings, opinions, views and desires. Pretty much relationship 101 stuff I think. But we sometimes go into a relationship projecting the rosy best, seeing them in our own positive light in that oh-so-willing projection. And then the opposite can happen too – where we’re consciously or unconsciously drudging up the bad imagery and self-sabotaging the potential on our own. Always a balancing, mirroring act – so I try to stay conscious and honest and focused … while being humble and human and kind too.

You mentioned “losing the juice of the relationship” after the lessons [or purpose(s)] of the relationship have been fulfilled. Yeah, I’ve seen that too. It’s hard to accept at the time, if you’re invested and/or still “in love.” Down the road hindsight usually is helpful, once the grieving of All That has moved a bit for us. The understanding so much of the time comes later.

You commented that “for me, part of the challenge is to be clear that it’s not my job to hold my partner’s feet to the fire.” Yeah, so true. And this took a long long long time for me to awaken to all that. You can encourage and offer some advice and support – but holding someone else doesn’t seem to work – just to be pragmatic if nothing else. They must have or develop their own will and understanding and desire for self-initiation in light of awareness and self-change should they choose that path. Seems to work to the detriment of the relationship when we push for those sorts of things from our side.

And … yeah, sometimes a person will seemingly magically appear in front of us as you said. I would still suggest (and this is only my opinion from my experiences again) that we use some discretion, wisdom and patience in attempting to discern if this person is there, attracted from the “old” us that we’re trying to evolve out of, or if they’re there being attracted from the “where we want to go” person within us. Then you have what I refer to as the Libra dilemma – the hard choice between two seemingly reasonable options. But, damn, we can’t just sit on the fence forever and never take action either. I guess sometimes you can just let some things just roll on by … but for me, seems we need to be self-actualizing and making decisions in those cases some of the times anyway. Checkin’ in>/I> to that inner guidance, or chatting it over with a good friend, or your therapist if that’s the case … with an ally of some sort, can be of help in bouncing the pros and cons about with someone you trust who has some grasp and understanding of your situation.

Re: A few thoughts...

Tony, I've had the same experience of attracting more mature people as I matured, and also, as you said, people who mirror qualities I've developed in myself – my last relationship was a huge leap forward over my previous one, but when it crashed and burned, it left me with a lot of stuff to reflect on – it became very clear to me that I attracted someone who was at the same level of maturity that I was when we first got together – I moved through and healed some psychological splits in my personality in the first couple of years of the relationship – having been in long-term therapy before, I was much more familiar with how to navigate my psychological terrain, so we “progressed” at different rates

I keep thinking there’s got to be a way to find someone I’m well enough matched with that we can keep evolving, healing, and growing at similar paces, but it sure hasn’t worked out that way in the past – how it’s been for me has been several years of amazing, soul-nourishing blossoming of the relationship and then coming up to a brick wall – even if I’m clueless about how to get through the wall, I’m up for the challenge, but the other person isn’t – this is definitely getting old

many years ago I knew a couple who had a very strong relationship, and I asked them what their secret was – they said they “play hardball” with each other – they’re honest down to their bones with each other (in addition to being consciously loving and supportive, etc. etc.) – a past therapist of mine used to talk about how when two people challenge themselves to get reeeeeeeally honest with each other (without getting malicious or nasty – fair fighting rules definitely apply), it often catapults them forward as a couple – I experienced a little of this in my last relationship, and it was truly amazing – but it didn’t last – at any rate, “playing hardball” is one of the things I definitely want in a relationship

I like what you said here: They must have or develop their own will and understanding and desire for self-initiation in light of awareness and self-change should they choose that path.
one of the traps I’ve fallen into in past relationships is that I’m such an initiator that others get fond of sitting back and watching me do all the work (yuck) – I’m doing a lot of work these days on opening the door more to my yin side, which I think will help balance that out to some degree (both within me and the people I attract) – but it’s also true that I’m a very active person (not dominating, just active) and would definitely like to be with someone who has good access to his own initiative (in his own life and in the relationship)

I agree completely with what you said about a person magically appearing and using various tools to discern the best course of action – I did this to the zillionth power at the start of my last relationship, and I got a HUGE yes each time and from every angle – so I’m left thinking that the fact that he and I aren’t together anymore doesn’t mean it was a mistake or that it “didn’t work out” – it means, I believe, that the gifts and lessons were exchanged and we completed our purpose together – I don’t think we ever really know why things happen, but if I’m going to make up a story about something, I’m sure going to make up an empowering one

I love what you wrote here: hold yourself in love and kindness and in that place where you can feel the Universe bringing you things and people who support your highest good

thank you for your wise words  :)

Re: A few thoughts...

Hi, Folks, and thank you all for your rich, honest and moving posts to this discussion! I am very happy that you are willing and able to share your thoughts, questions, ideas, and even resources here and I am certain that others are reading and getting value out of this although they may not be participating in the posts.

I just want to say that at this point please do not take my non-participation in posting as anything other than not being able to spend the time on it for now. I am in the midst of completion of my master’s thesis and although my heart is here, my head has to be elsewhere right now. I sincerely hope that I am not creating a sense of “abandonment” by my lack of participation. If anyone has questions they would like to direct to me personally, please do so through this pod or through my zaadz email and I will do my best to respond as soon as I am able.

I just have to pause in awe at the membership and quantity of discussion that I never expected! Even though the inception of this pod was not ideal timing for myself (a little distraction from my academic work!), I am so glad that I went ahead and began it and to be meeting you all in cyberspace and sharing our inspirations and innermost thoughts.

All my best to you each. In Love and Light, Laurie

Re: A few thoughts...

hi Laurie,

no sense of abandonment here, but I do look forward to your participation when you have more time – best of luck and success with your master’s thesis!