Gaia: MemeBusters - Conversations

Re: Any new memes to bust?

Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:43:32 GMT

Anybody seen Zeitgeist? That would be something to talk about. I was especially enamored by the first part, about religion and how many "great teachers" and holy entities have a very similar background. I't said that amongst others Horus and Jesus were born on Dec 25th, they died on the cross and were gone for three days. They were called the same things and worked miracles etc.

That would be something to discuss and lots of memes to bust here, I believe.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://HumanlyPossible.gaia.com — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:54:20 GMT

Hi Osma, I think that you will enjoy reading Malcolm's blog

Any new memes to bust?

http://ozma.gaia.com — Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:04:19 GMT

Let's get some conversation started here again!

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://Oceann.gaia.com — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 01:15:07 GMT

Isn't that exactly what the current corporate-ruled world is doing now to the poorest in the world? And any of us who do not green our food?

Knowing what we know about how cattle grazing harms the environment more than any other human activity, and more - knowing that meat-eating and cattle rearing is causing the mass starvation of humans numbering in the millions by taking over arable land that could be growing enough grain to feed everyone, isn't this planned mass murder?

I'm not in any way minimizing what was done on huge scales in the past and yet now, in the information age, we know what causes these problems and how to solve them and we have the means to take care of every problem on a global scale, which has never even been dreamed of before in human history.

Moving toward a plant-based world diet will not only create healthy people and a healthy environment but also will ensure that everyone is fed - plus, the spiritual aspect of knowing that by our food we are creating life instead of destroying innocent beings in the cruelest of ways is a wonderful thing to aim for.

So, isn't it evil not to do the kind thing? To green our food?
Since to green our food is far more important to saving the environment and the starving people than to green our cars or anything else, isn't it evil not to?

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://ozma.gaia.com — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:45:50 GMT

Oh, I don't believe that line of thinking, but I see a lot of new age people who do and I am curious to hear their justification for it.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://HumanlyPossible.gaia.com — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:44:52 GMT

I get really uncomfortable with that way of thinking. I can certainly say that the responsibility lies with the killer, and with society in general. What lessons can we learn that help us to raise a race of people that do not get so "off the rails" that they go on killing sprees. I suspect that the argument that you present is often used as a spiritual comfort blanket. I see no comfort in it.

Re: Capitalism - busting a meme

Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:34:05 GMT

Raf,

Given your background, I wondered if you knew about former City of London regulator Chris Cook and Open Capital it seems that you may find some congruence:

http://www.opencapital.net

I'm aware from ongoing discussion with Chris that he's involved in many projects which touch on the areas you've mentioned, such as the global land tools project currently under way in Kenya attempting to apply a Henry George based approach to land value.

I've probably mentioned this to you in another thread, but for the benefit of this thread my own efforts are directed toward people-centered economics.

http://www.p-ced.com

Regards,

Jeff

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:12:10 GMT

Ozma,

What you said about putting out a light reminded me of something journalist Malcolm Muggeridge wrote back in 1939 on the subject of state managed terrorism.

"There can be no trust between man and man when all are in duty bound to act as informers; there can be no intellectual or moral integrity when opinions are dictated and any deviation from them punished; there can be no learning or art, no pursuit of truth at all, when the free exercise of curiosity and speculation is made a crime. Human life, so confined, is something very paltry, lacking in dignity, insignificant. Whatever is fine and permanent in human achievement has been realised through individuals courageously facing the circumstances of their being; and a society is civilised to the extent to which it makes this possible. Terrorism, which aims at putting out the spiritual light, is the antithesis of civilisation."

You may recall that this journalists's own spiritual journey led him much later in life to discover Mother Teresa of Calcutta. This was a man who'd observed one of the greatest horrors of the 20th century early in his career and for attempting to report it, was villified and dismissed from his job.

Reporting on the deliberate starvation of up to 11 million people, he'd written:

" What the Bolsheviks have done in the towns of Russia is nothing; a kind of inverted American boom; a kind of morbid equivalent of the general post-war economic extravagance; a thing that might pass and be quickly forgotten. The particular horror of their rule is what they have done in the villages. This, I am convinced, is one of the most monstrous crimes in history, so terrible that people in the future will scarcely be able to believe it ever happened."

I've been retracing his steps of late, finding survivors of that time more than 70 years later, a time in which people were driven to extremes to survive, including canniibalism of children stolen from other's families.

You and I will be fortunate in never experiencing such horror, those that did find it almost impossible to talk about. This was a time in which ordinary people subjected to evil had no choice but to become part of it.

So, i'm inclined to see it in much the same way as you seem to, and probably as Malcolm did too, that it's capacity exists in each and every one of us, as does our greater capacity for love.

Not long ago, escorting my father back to the beaches of Normandy, he was approached by a radio reporter asking him if there were any memorable events he'd like to talk about in his experience in 1944. He related the story of a captured SS Panzer soldier who'd been put to work digging graves. Under shelling this man had sheilded the body of his captor and died in his effort. I recalled the Christian teaching that "man hath no greater love than to lay down his life for a friend" and here was a man laying his down for an enemy, exceeding even this, the greatest of principles.

.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://ozma.gaia.com — Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:51:39 GMT

Wondering what folks have to say about today's shootings at Virginia Tech. Did the victims "attract" their killer and force him to go on a killing spree?

Re: The Secret / Law of Attraction Meme

http://Oceann.gaia.com — Sat, 14 Apr 2007 22:58:41 GMT

Yes, but delusion springs eternal and people pay to hear pretty stories, especially concerning their own prosperity and especially without any payment in terms of, say, giving up calories to be unfat and fit, as "The Secret" would offer people.
It's selling fortune telling on a grand scale and it definitely appeals.
If one only looks at successes, "focusing on the positives", not only is one only going to feel lucky and blessed, but he'll also be able to ignore the plight of all the have-nots and complacently tend to his own interests, free of conscience.
All the religions teach at least being good before earning the right to receive.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://Oceann.gaia.com — Sat, 14 Apr 2007 22:54:22 GMT

Humans are quite complex.
Practicalities force most actions in one part of ourselves and are often fuelled by emotionality and passion in acting on self-interest.
King's assasination was well-planned and had to do with economic realities and the perceived infringement of the rights of certain groups who had before benefitted by keeping other groups down - I don't buy into the "one guy did this" evidence at all.
Baby-sitters and murdering moms are to be found in any study of other primate groups.
Murderous behavior is natural to any of us apes when we're in overpopulated situations, and the old dominance issues abound no matter what, alongside greed and territorialism.
Evil is a concept we needed to create in order to bring ethics and morality into the mix, and to survive in group situations as the groups got larger than just the small bands we were genetically meant to live in, with plenty of resources.
Now, with ten times too many humans on the planet, more of these things, not less, are bound to occur.
Chaos is just beginning, and hormones and other individual indicators of violence, the incessant media-stoking of these tendencies, and very poor parenting and societies meeting ever less of peoples' needs are causing us to face the realities of our complicated make-ups and the terrible capacities for cruelties we're all capable of given the right circumstances.
Religiosity and laws help to contain these actions, but with too many people to police, no stable small village communities but increasing urban populations, no economic justice and other factors, there are almost nil in effect any more.
Those we deem most "evil" are in fact only doing what they're allowed to do, can get away with at the moment, or are basic tendencies gone wild - or they've had too many head wounds, drugs, beatings, institutionalization, and so on.
Organized crimes, like warring, also teach the individual that violence is ok.
There are many issues involved with this interesting question.
The human himself is enough, is adequate to the task of doing evil- we don't need to look outside to find some demonic force to blame.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://HumanlyPossible.gaia.com — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:21:01 GMT

I love this kind of discussion, and I find there are several "levels" on which to answer it. The first most obvious one to me is "duality theory" i.e for "us" to experience anything, then we must also have experience of it's opposite, or we would be unaware of it's existence in the first place. i.e. if there was no evil, would we recognize, appreciate good? I personally am glad that we have the choice, so that many of us can have the joy of choosing good. Basically of course "negative" exists, otherwise we would have no concept of "positive"

The second is that although life is chaotic in many ways, then there are often reasons why a person comes to a point of confusion between good, and evil. i.e. I believe that people are very capable of evil acts, for evil reasons. But I also believe that should we come to a complete understanding of why they reached the point in their life where evil, became, in their mind the right choice, then we would see that people are wonderful, in that it takes a huge amount of adversity and struggle to push us to the point of evil*. I believe in evil actions, I do not believe in evil people (though sometimes it is so hard to reach an understanding of where they are coming from that they give a very good impression of being evil).

I guess for me those are the most important points/levels, in answer to this question.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://ozma.gaia.com — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:15:20 GMT

Interesting thoughts, guys.

How about this in the news today:

Babysitter charged with murdering mother, unborn fetus and 3 children
http://www.wave3.com/global/story.asp?s=6357002

The story is pretty gruesome. Evil? Or not evil?

Re: The Secret / Law of Attraction Meme

http://ozma.gaia.com — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:12:09 GMT

Glad to have you here, Andrew!

Re: The Secret / Law of Attraction Meme

http://andrewwilcox.gaia.com — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 00:36:09 GMT

The movie "The Secret" is oversimplified and not entirely true. However, that does not make the Law of Attraction invalid.

The Law of Attraction at core states...

A) One can achieve joy through transformation of thought alone.
B) Outer reality is a mirror of inner reality.
C) All truth is a function of the one choosing to "believe" the truth.

Using LOA to attain riches without joy will never work. One who has attained joy may find they are no longer interested in riches.

Not a fan of "The Secret", but receiving everything I truly want from The Law of Attraction.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://andrewwilcox.gaia.com — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 00:26:39 GMT

It's been stated clearly that even the concept of a meme is a meme.

Wouldn't the thought/belief that evil does exist be just as much of a meme as the meme that evil doesn't exist?

It would probably be more productive to sit around and talk about who's brain is bigger.

Pointless Argument #1) I'm right. You're wrong.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 00:07:22 GMT

ideas around shadow...

Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.

"The Philosophical Tree" (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335

A man who is unconscious of himself acts in a blind, instinctive way and is in addition fooled by all the illusions that arise when he sees everything that he is not conscious of in himself coming to meet him from outside as projections upon his neighbour.

"The Philosophical Tree" (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335
i think what i am referring to hear is the basic idea that people often project things onto others. ie. the way a lot of people who were racist projected all sorts of issues on other races. for example the jews. were all the germans 'evil'? or were many misguided and projecting a lot of their anger and frustrations with their personal lives onto others?

or for example a number of people who hate gay people are known to project a lot of their own self loathing around their own vulnerability onto gay men. they react to the affeminate nature because to be feminine is to be week. so it is a 'shadowed' aspect of themselves essentially. an issue they project onto another. maybe not 'attracted' so much, or maybe attracted, but regardless something they deny in themselves and condemn in others. want to attack it in themselves so they attack it outwardly and deny it in themselves.

many times people who are heavily anti gay come out years later for example, but are heavy handed in their condemnation of others.

just pieces that i have considered around other issues.

or i had a lot of anger to work through after being abused in various ways that once worked through i was less concerned about. i wasn't drinking or doing drugs, but had i been i could have been more of a concern to society. i had good emotional support, but had my abuse been worse or my skills been less i could see how i could have been physically abusive or lashed out and attacked others. regretted it after the fact surely i would think.

i had parents. i had good support. i had issues surely, but i had times where i was around friends who sold drugs and went to prison and had all sorts of issues. knowing their pasts gave me more compassion and made me less quick to assume it was simple 'evil' at least the way many frame it.

-d

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://ozma.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:19:18 GMT

"i think the ideas around 'shadow' work are interesting in this context, but would apply mainly to consciousness explorations would require a certain degree of consciousness and not 'attract' those who would be dark at their core perhaps."

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here...but I think light attracts dark because darkness is angry and wants to snuff out the light.

This is why, oh, someone like Martin Luther King Jr. would be targeted and shot. He was conscious and powerful. That's why he was targeted. Not because he was weak or in a bad space or "attracting" the negative to him.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

http://Oceann.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:44:40 GMT

Evil only exists in humans.
We all have the capacity, as Freud observed when he remakred that humans are incapable of unconditional love, noting that dogs and all the other species are capable of unconditional love - we humans can compartmentalize our beilefs, our motives, our actions, and can maintain our innocence to ourselves, rationalizing whatever we wish, blaming others for our doings, and so on...
Every serial killer blames his victim for the crimes he does, and every political fiend find convenient excuses in his own policy-making, as does every religious person choose whatever scripture he or she wishes to cover whatever he or she wishes to do.
It's human nature, alas, and it is contained by spirutality, if at all, or by adherance to a moral code of ethics, by training, and sometimes this off-sets head wounds, bad chemistry, or other factors in making people violent and cruel.
Educate people in ethics, train them in compassion, show them morality, and we'll all have a better chance at a better world.
In the absence of religion, which is the circumstance we now have, when the media creates ever more violet models to follow, only if the rest of us bring spirutality, Compassion, and kindness into the popular mix will the majority of people become good rather than evil.

Re: Evil: Does it Exist?

Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:52:03 GMT

interesting thanks.

one thing i was going to mention in this thread is the book 'the soul's code' by james hillman, and in it there is a chapter dealing with evil and ideas around it. explores hitlet and i think manson. looks at the 'seed' of their soul so to speak. the 'acorn' is the term he uses and ways that their seed seemed to manifest. i think it may have been called 'the bad seed' (that chapter).

i guess to say 'cloaks' itself in good sounds like a person is entirely evil, but masquerading as good. i guess in my experience i see often people who hide behind various masks, inauthentic and have all sorts of fears. when they deal with things interesting things happen and they often shift in my experience.

that said, i remember having one interaction with a guy who seemed particularly cruel. i remember thinking maybe that was evil.

i looked up in dictionary.com the meaning of evil and it talks about 'bad deeds' or 'immoral things'. i think there is 'denial' and i think there is 'harmful action' done at times unconsciously. i guess for me what i am not sure about is that people consciously do evil, or perhaps are consciously evil at their core. well, let's see, something came to mind about a friend who said to me at one point that he didn't want to be so pure. he has certainly seemed to act against what he knew was aligned morally, and his response has been along the lines of why does it matter and everyone is doing it in society.

from looking at the definitions of evil on dictionary.com which are less sinister than the word tends to sound as used by many Christian groups, i would say that certainly malintentions exist. maybe due to unconsciousness. i would say many certainly take actions and abuse people knowingly without consideration/conscience.

is it motivated by a dark lord/satan? is it motivated by unconsciousness? both?

i dated a pretty tripped out guy a couple years ago who was racist and hated women. a personality disorder called histrionic. no logic i had seemed to be useful in much of that dynamic. was that evil? was it biological? some sort of trauma?

good question/exploration. sociopaths. hrm. not sure i want to 'attract' them ;-).

i think the ideas around 'shadow' work are interesting in this context, but would apply mainly to consciousness explorations would require a certain degree of consciousness and not 'attract' those who would be dark at their core perhaps.

regardless i think some interesting things have occurred in my experience around how to approach things which would manifest as 'evil' in one's life. does one fear 'evil'? hide from it? how does one deal with what may manifest as evil?