Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

www.Culture-counts.de

was in search of German identity. Here some results, in German:)

Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

…

Das wichtigste Ergebnis: Identität? Fehlanzeige! Das hat - man ahnt es schon
- zunächst mit dem Nationalsozialismus zu tun. Er verhindert, so die Autoren,
den selbstbewussten Rückgriff auf die Schatzkiste der Traditionen und
Eigenarten. Ein Teilnehmer brachte dies wie folgt auf den Punkt: “Ich bin kein
Patriot. Das Gefühl des Deutsch-Seins? Schwierig, denn der
nationalsozialistische Geist schwebt noch über uns.” Wen wundert’s, dass die
Deutschen über ihre Nazivergangenheit gar nicht erfreut und oft sogar richtig
neidisch auf andere Nationalitäten “mit erkennbar intaktem nationalem
Identitätsbezug” sind. Zum Beispiel auf Italiener, Spanier oder Franzosen.
Der Psychologe sagt dazu: Die Deutschen können nicht auf
Vergangenheitserfahrungen zurückblicken, die sie stolz machen würden. Damit
verliere die deutsche Identität ihre Wurzeln. Da helfen offenbar auch Goethe,
Beethoven und Caspar David Friedrich nichts. Das frustriert. Was machen die
Deutschen deswegen? Genau, sie suchen! Und dabei stoßen sie auf ein deutsches
Wesen, das sich nicht festzulegen traut. Kein Wunder also, dass die Deutschen
rastlos und skeptisch gegenüber dem sind, was ist. Sie “scheinen wenig fähig,
sich in erreichten Zuständen und Einsichten einzurichten oder mit Blick auf
Positives inneren Frieden zu finden.” Im Klartext: Alles, was gut ist, hat für
sie einen Haken. Kein Wunder außerdem, dass Deutsch-Sein im Alltag keine Rolle
spielt. Denn so einfach stolz, ein Deutscher zu sein, geht gar nicht. Und
schließlich kein Wunder, dass die Deutschen wie wild rackern. “Werkeln und
tüfteln”. Oder wie ein Teilnehmer sagte: “Ein Deutscher geht mit einer
Blechbüchse in den Knast und kommt mit einer Konservenfabrik wieder heraus.”
…

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

In search of one's self. I'd need an hour and a good dictionary to understand the whole thing but I thank you for this!

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Nicole,

thank you so much for your efforts. I am offering a preliminary, very rough and bad translation from:

http://babelsish.yahoo.com

Just to get started….):)


 

“What is called actually typically German? A new study gives deep-psychological idea of the German nature.  

Everyone knows these inevitable jokes, which move the national stereotypes into the focus. An example: “What does an English pensioner? He rises at nine o'clock, drinks a glass of Scotch and goes to gulf plays. And a French pensioner? He rises at ten o'clock, drinks a glass of Bordeaux and goes to its friend. And a German pensioner? He rises at seven o'clock, takes its heart drops and goes to the work!” Welcome in the world, in which the others point to us. And which those do not know everything about us. “We are those, which build the best cars. We are those, which cannot amuse themselves. We are humorless. We are rather perfect, but condemned boring”, describe Rainer Carpenter in the preface the narrow perception passage abroad. Who, asks one would like to be already so conventional naturally frightened back, and is pleased that its nevertheless somewhat more complex and more varied is.

Found out this now scientists of the Rhine gold of institute, which worked the “mark core out of German identity” on behalf the Identity Foundation. But 70 depth interviews with humans were led from 15 to 65 from all layers and education degrees - from Rostock to Munich.

The most important result: Identity? Nil return! That has to do - one already suspects it - first with the national socialism. It prevents, so the authors, the self-confident resort to the treasure crate of the traditions and characteristics. A participant brought this as follows on the point: “I am not patriot. The feeling of the German Seins? With difficulty, because the National Socialist spirit still floats over us.” Who is wondering  that the Germans are not at all pleased and often even correctly envious over their Nazi past on other nationalities “with recognizably intact national identity purchase”. For example on Italians, Spaniards or Frenchmen.

The psychologist says to it: The Germans cannot look back on past experiences, which would make them proud. Thus looses the German identity its roots. There do not help obviously also Goethe, Beethoven and Caspar David Friedrich anything. Frustrates. What do the Germans make therefore? Look for exactly, it! And they encounter a German nature, which does not trust to commit itself. No miracle thus the fact that the Germans are restless and sceptical opposite that which is. They “seem a little able to furnish themselves in reached conditions and insights or find with view of positive internal peace.” In the plain language: Everything that is good, has a hook for it. No miracle in addition that German its does not play a role in the everyday life. Because, a German to be so simply proud, does not go at all. And finally no miracle that the Germans as wild rackern. “Werkeln and fiddle”. Or like a participant said: “A German goes with a can into the prison and comes out with a tinning factory again.”

Who does not know to begin however so quite with itself which, diverting manoeuvre begins to insert. It improvised, experimented, questions however the reached equal again, and if it becomes it too much, it withdraws itself. Thus can be begun again and again from the front and honestly: Who needs for it a old-venerable German identity already? Therefore the Rhine gold authors identified four typical samples of the German Seins:


We are inventive, precise and perfect.
We are reliable and faithful. Actually pleasantly to live in a country which “precisely like a Swiss clockwork runs”. Evenly perfect the country to the life.
We are cosy homeland dear and. Homeland obtain stop. Most of all in the own four walls, where it is cosy.
We are sentimental and whine gladly. Because never are somewhat enough, and one is content never.
The problem is only: The Germans are naturally not content with these characteristics. What do they do therefore? They increase it in extremes, in order to feel little identity in this unclear world. There however a new problem waits: Since the Germans ingeniously and lost at the same time are, they oscillate gladly between sky high jauchzend and to death betrübt. “As down on a baroque wheel of fortune into the exaggerated heights of a world-masterly requirement and again into the valleys of missing and failure and thus to the self-accusation.” In the exaggeration one can define then the following four German samples:


World champion fantasies. Many Germans understand themselves as a nation, which stands over all different. In the background the perfect German inventions radiate.
Solidification. Security needs to want to regulate everything take over the controlling of the particular. “One expenditure-borders everything that according to DIN standard, is not and one looks at inclined - that is typically German.”
Internal emigration. Before loud fear to fail and expectations not fulfill, one withdraws oneself into the Schneckenhaus of the Spießbürgers.


Selbstzerfleischung. One takes refuge in spare actions and compensated its suffering from the world. “Here with us really many drink like a hole.” After this measurement of the German nature it is now possible, so the authors to describe the current “prototypes of lived and/or displaced German identity”. The cultural German is historical and culturalconsciously and regarded its country as “community, by politeness, precision, on-time departure performance and loyalty is characterised”. There is often older West German ones, which live solidly and work. Typical quotation: “Thomas's man, Goethe and Schiller, that are German examples, because them Germany to have coined/shaped and lasting values create.” The homeland German is a opportunistischer Provinzler with small historical education. There is often East German, an all-German identity is rather all the same which. Typical quotation: “My homeland is Rostock and that will also always in such a way remain. I have here everything that I need to the life.”

The achievement German is proudly said on the native country, better on the meritocracy. Strictly speaking it is the superficial variant of the cultural German. There is frequently younger ones under 35 years. Typical quotation: “You run so ducked rum. You, you put up much created!” The order German lives after the slogan: “Me wurscht that I am German, main thing is, the course drives.” He estimates the regular life and the high safety standard in the country. And state relies on father. Typical quotation: “In Germany you place against the bus stop and know yourself, the bus will also come.”

The isolation German feels from the stranger encircles, does not dare however not publicly to up-howl. Its theater of war is the living room, where it can leave free run to his feelings and aggressions. Typical quotation: “The Frenchmen have the instructions on their ticket automats purely on French - these dogs, those are right.” The misery German feels a suppressed rage on state and foreigner. It feels alone and sometimes courageless. Typical quotation: “We were sold. I worked 38 years and hardly get pension.” The global German turns finally from the national to the world stage. It cries the old nation no tear after and hopes for supranational developments in Europe and the world. Often it talks about emigrating, without doing it. “I intend to go to Australia or New Zealand. I would be free and could show that it goes alone.”

Result: The Germans do not have correct national identity, why them with perfect requirement, but contently through the life to never go industriously, always. They trust actually only, know themselves much better and withdraw themselves often unverstanden into their own four walls. And now? Two questions arise: Are the results of this study not again only stereotyped one? And secondly: Do we have to concern ourselves in the post-national age not many more with much-many identities? With daily thousand influences from all corners and ends of the world.

We are honest: There is not the German in lillywhite Identitätsmäntelchen nevertheless any longer. There schillern many multicolored patches on the coat. From many national identities. Also migrants and foreigners, which live in Germany, form increasingly a Patchwork from different identities. In the morning look at traditional breakfast, pre and in the afternoon layer with OPELs with German colleagues and internationally coined/shaped organisational culture, in the evening then with German friends in the cinema, a Hollywoodfilm.

Well, one could say, the basis work is performed with this study. Perhaps but the more interesting part of the general survey comes now: How much-culturally are the Germans actually? Which not-German portions are enwoven in their identity? Aren't the Germans due to their unzementierten national identity the better Kosmopoliten, which can move more elegantly in the globalization? Do they have no more freedom to be able to be which wants to be it?

Because sometimes too much national identity can be also a heavy burden, which makes one immovable. Italians, Frenchmen, Portuguese, Swiss and Spaniards can sing for example a song of it. In the per-capita consumption of alcohol they are exactly in this order on the first five places world-wide. Whether there is a connection between nationalism and drinking? Perhaps still another research topic.


Peter Felixberger is co-ordinator of Culture COUNT.

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Even though it is at times unintentionally funny, the translation helps a lot Albert. I do get the gist of what is being discussed. Does it ring true to you? Are there parts you would disagree with?

I thought the bit at the end was hilarious, the connection between nationalism and drinking. I think of Americans as highly identified with their country - are they also among the world's top drinkers? :)

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Basically the theme canot be exhausted here.

Will work on for this ILR Special about Germany for January 2010.

It calls for blueprints and a German Center for Human Emrgence. This takes absolute will power, boldness and more executive intelligence than the best secret services of the world can imagine. More in depth understanding than all think tanks, consultancies bring together. More lenses for reality than science and politics show right now.

it will be about co-creating European Future in global context without denying roots of regional and national identity. it will be about a Momentous leap for the next 100 years.

It demands of each of the leading edge in this process what Goethe had said in this way:

“Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.”

After a century of totalitarian We consciousness in Germany a new meshing of personal and collective identity is at the threshold.

I will provide -as usual rough and sometimes funny -Babelfish Translation of an excerpt of a text Dorothea Zimmer and Don Beck wrote in the German Issue of WIE:

Quo vadis, Deutschland?

its from 2005 and I fully gree. Had lots of discussions with Dorothea years ago and she is one of the leading pioneers in German speaking countries I have lots in common with.

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Quo vadis, Deutschland?

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Quo Vadis

A perspective for extended thinking and action area
of Dorothea room and Don E. Beck
 
“I love this country! ”, Federal President Horst Köhler in its inaugural speech said 2004. Nobody laughed or pulled those to brow high.

Beyond petroleum (before times British Petrol) scolded full-page announcements with various “German”, among other things:

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe… sauerkraut… Ms miracles… office mould… Albert Einstein… Semper opera… Bertold break… to oak… Gretchen… brothers Grimm… Siegfried… pink Luxembourg… Johannes good mountain… Loreley… fall of the wall… Otto von Bismarck… Pellkartoffel… garden dwarf… Immanuel Kant… Ostfriesennerz… Albrecht Dürer… Brezeln… garbage separation…

Among them stands: “We are gladly here.”

After decades German skirt is at one time cool again rather.

Prominent politicians discuss over the necessity for a German guiding culture and German virtues. Deutschtümelnde neo-Nazis sit in the Saxonian federal state parliament.

Does one have to do with the other something? Does Germany induce itself to involution-back into one to nationalism, extremism, ever more strongly itself a polarizing society? Or is it on the way to look for something which was lost to it, something, which it necessarily, in order further to go to be able?

60 years after victory over the Nazi regime and 16 years after the case of the wall are the questions about how we work, how we live together, as we learn urgent, more deeply and more vitally ever. They affect the existenziellen and spirituellen bases of our identity as humans, as nation, as a society and as a responsible person fellow player in a deeply fragmented and at the same time from each other dependent and connected world.

For the moment it looks in such a way, as if Germany wants to insert the reverse gear. Backwards, because none of the parties orders over a convincing and load-carrying future draft for Germany, which would be appropriate for the complexity of the political, economic, social and social challenges. Which is to be accused to them not simply. We live 20 in times of large circulations, those with the ideological concepts, practical models and idealistic conceptions. Century no longer to be met can. And if the situation is intensified and first of all increases the general confusion, make themselves Demagogen, simple, extremists and fundamentalists likewise the socks. We see also it already well on the way.

In the Einstein year however little our situation brings 2005 in such a way on the point like the statement of the low-intimate physicist: “We cannot solve problems with same thinking, these problems create have.”

The question is: Do we have resources, which a qualitative leap into new thinking, a new existence level to make possible? If, which there is and as we mobilize it? Or which holds back us? And which new Denken-eines, which in complexes, connections in the fragmenting and the deeper dynamic forces, which form a thinking, an acting and the identity in individuals and whole cultures, is called recognizes order in the chaos, simplicity?

With a new perspective we discover the deeper samples of the human psyche, the value systems, which are the basis for the behavior and the development on the different levels of the Seins and Zusammenseins of humans. In spiral Dynamics integral, one of the most precise models of cultural development, were investigated these value systems and development codes, which constitute our “cultural DNA”. For the better communication the individual levels with colors were designated.

The key thought is: Humans, cultures and subcultures, whole nations dance on different levels of psychosocial evolution, set different priorities in their value systems, have different value Memes as emphasis. They are all verwoben with one another in an unfolding global fabric, an enormous alive body, which begins to become only conscious its even straight. And they emergieren one on the other following, not in rigid linear form, but is even like the life: hurrying ahead, back-yielding, looking for detours, playful, sometimes inconsiderately and brutally lessons demanding, mäandernd, dancing. But emerges internal dynamics and order following, in after each out-differentiated stage the new with constantly higher complexity and quantum transitions. In the midst of the largest quantum transition of our history we move obviously now of the realm the necessity-beige green into a realm of the real possibility off yellow. (To the further information over spiral Dynamics integral see also www.wie.org/spiral)

To the art, the mental, to understand spirituellen, to master social and cultural challenges of our century belongs substantially, to recognize the natural river of this evolution what it blocked and where a diseased development, a too much one or a too little, conflicts, crises and wars produce, which natural next stage lines up and which it needs to their optimal development.

What is called for Germany? For example:

For many decades the Germans were gladly Bavaria or Lower Saxony, Frankfurt ones or citizens of Berlin. In the east they were citizens of the GDR. To be German was not in. National feelings were considered as nationalistic Mief from yesterday. Its was called progressive to be at least European or Weltbürger.

But in this country, that perhaps thus begins, to free themselves of its debt feelings for the time of fascism and set responsibility for it in their place, seems to something at one time to be missing. One level between that is missing geographically/to cultural identity as Munich and a citizen of the world, which are rooted in the tradition of this country, their light and its shade, its language and its history of ideas.

And it is missing load-carrying future draft for this country, model Germany, which and is nevertheless firmly in the reality created a framework for with one another of his 80 million humans offer also those, who are from other culture areas to us come being, which demands and promotes both, simultaneous visionär enough, in order to inspire head and heart. A model Germany for the own identity and development, less for the remainder of the world…..”

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Another great article. Many thanks!

Nicole

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Albert/Nicole, fascinating subject, so the Germans are drinkers (and the Americans)? Well I believe the irish are up there with the best (or down there with the worst) when it comes to per capita alcohol consumption.
I am tempted to start a new thread/room on national characteristics and/ or stereotypes, what do you think?

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Why not, Mike, go for it! :)

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Or of course, you could start it here: World Heritage Society

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Hi Mikey,

:):) guess the stack of steroetypes is it. There was an MTV Special last year about music and manners in Germany. Lots to laugh:):)

One could however say for sure:

No European nation -not to mention North America- has such a troubled attitude to its own national anthem.

And I mentioned elsewhere this Tucholsky quote:

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Kurt Tucholsky:
 
“Nothing makes the Germans loose their composure as much as when
trying to find themselves.”

German Foreign Minister Frank Walter Steinmeyer quoted him:
here.

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Albert, troubled attitude to its national anthem?

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

YES:

Timothy Garton Ash. co-founder of European Council on Foreign Relations said this last year, and right he is:

“history of national anthems is a history of embarrassment. They show up, like an x-ray, all the weaknesses and fracture-lines in the body of a state. As a general rule, when a nation doesn't sing its anthem, that's a sure sign of trouble”
 
And Don Beck is the only integral specialist I know who adresses this too. See this clip from 2006 where he called a Dutch audience of 900 people to stand up and sing their national anthem.

Don Beck in Netherlands 2006

My friend MO Riddiford, a global nomade who was born in New Zealand and now lives in Berlin, told me last year:

“Albert I cannot even imagine a German audience doing this within next 5 years.”

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Right. So, the only place where Germans can publicly display nationalism is in sporting events like football? 

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Lol..often it is so…)

The nonverbal -f.e. music events - and sportive opportunities often show whats possible.

And in very personal and private circles.

So the basic gap which is however closing now in most diverse constellations, is the gap between public postive we feelings and personal ones.

Its however remarkable that the 16 th Karmapa sent Lama Ole Nydahl who was born in Denmark years ago to Germany. as he said Germany has a strong potential for the Diamond Way. BECAUSE of strong irrational components mixed with evolutionary thinking in the last 250 years.

Sri Aurobindo analysed similar patterns decades ago in his essay about subjectivity.

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Do you have a link for that esay about subjectivity?

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Sri Aurobindo on Germany

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Thank you so much, Albert. I am fascinated by his conclusions:

But the misuse of great powers is no argument against their right use. To go back is impossible; the attempt is always, indeed, an illusion; we have all to do the same thing which Germany has attempted, but to take care not to do it likewise. Therefore we must look beyond the red mist of blood of the War and the dark fuliginous confusion and chaos which now oppress the world to see why and where was the failure. 
For her failure which became evident by the turn her action took and was converted for the time being into total collapse, was clear even then to the dispassionate thinker who seeks only the truth. 
That befell her which sometimes befalls the seeker on the path of Yoga, the art of conscious self-finding, - a path exposed to far profounder perils than beset ordinarily the average man, - when he follows a false light to his spiritual ruin. She had mistaken her vital ego for herself; she had sought for her soul and found only her force. For she had said, like the Asura, “I am my body, my life, my mind, my temperament,” and become attached with a Titanic force to these; especially she had said, “I am my life and body,” and than that there can be no greater mistake for man or nation. 
The soul of man or nation is something more and diviner than that; it is greater than its instruments and cannot be shut up in a physical, a vital, a mental or a temperamental formula. So to confine it, even though the false social formation be embodied in the armour-plated social body of a huge collective human dinosaurus, can only stifle the growth of the inner Reality and end in decay or the extinction that overtakes all that is unplastic and unadaptable.
It is evident that there is a false as well as a true subjectivism and the errors to which the subjective trend may be liable are as great as its possibilities and may well lead to capital disasters. This distinction must be clearly grasped if the road of this stage of social evolution is to be made safe for the human race.

Re: Auf der Suche nach sich selbst

Sri Aurobindo was a giant.

Now, a the end of first decade of 21th century, integral devlopment in global terms which includes these national identites -are the historic challenge. the understanding of Sri Aurobindo as much of poltics and culture as of subjectivity is realized in integral orbits only partially.

His bio shows such a rich fullness of action in many areas of life. And his understanding of WW2 , his letter to Chuchill and his clear difference with Gandhi in this case..document his down to earth standing in poltics too.
No sirupy New age like softness but clear and cutting through the bulshit of dreamy wishes…