Gaia: Non-Dual Psychotherapy - Introductions

Re: Introductions

Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:46:03 GMT

Hi Patrick..

Will continue in discussions thread....

In Peace,
Soul

Re: Introductions

Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:32:27 GMT

Hello Soul,

Thanks for your post. Yes I'd like to carry on...but I need fuel....I mean you.....and all other members.

I don't want to simply do my monologue! Your post was very nice and I hope it could be the beginning of an interesting thread.

Be well,

Patrick

Re: Introductions

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:30:37 GMT

Hi Patrick,

i'm glad you got carried away, and I hope you keep writing...

Love what you wrote:)

Enjoy this blessed day, with all it's waves....

Soul

Re: Introductions

Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:19:47 GMT

Hello to all,

I was dumbfounded at reading Catherine Auman's post when she quoted Osho saying therapist work with garbage: that's what I've been thinking about my job for a few years now. I usually say that I'm a garbage man for people's mind! But that's where my comparison with Osho will stop!

This thing about Guru and therapist is quite tricky I think. I used to be very clear about the boundaries, knowing both worlds (therapy and beeing a disciple). But with time I'm less and less sure of these two kinds of relationship beeing so different.

I think maybe they did also co-evolve in the pas few decades, each one influencing the other:

- Spirituality entering and modifying the realm of psychotherapy

- Psychotherapy entering the realm of spirituality and modifying it.

Will they merge in the end?

Historically I think we all agree to say that psychotherapy appeared when God (or the Gods) was killed by man (Freud, end of the 19th century, age of mind, science and questionning God, the father's authority and so on). Confessions and healing the soul was taken away from the priests and a non.religious setting was created:psychotherapy.

If we did belittle religion's authority (Christianism) on us at that time, it certainly came back with a profound interest for eastern models and ways of thinking.

But I'm going astray here..sorry.

Here are some similiarities (not an exhasutive list by any mean) that I see in those two relationships (Guru/disciple and Therapist/client):

- both aim at knowledge of the self and increased harmony

- transferance is part of both processes

- change is a central notion

Psychotherapy, though, was developped to help "sick" people to recover their normal functionning. Spirituality 's aim is to help human beeings develop further from normality, or beyond normality. Psychotherapy used to deal with the relative self, the ego: how to strenghten it, make it healthy and capable of functionning in society. Spirituality does not really care about the relative self, or ego.On the opposite, it tends to help us disidentify with it and establish ourselves into another "self" - broader, more encompassing, loving and finally no-self.

So we can say that psychotherapy's point of focus was the mind. Spirituality's focus is "beyond mind", or developing the higher mind (Buddhi) and ultimately go beyond mind.

These are very different area's of work.

But as I've said earlier, Spirituality has fecundated psychotherapy in the last decades (Humanism, transpersonal and so on), and it is now frequent that psychotherapists work not only on the ego, but also help their clients go beyond ego.

So I'd summarize it this way:

1)Psychotherapy ---> ego----> therapist/client

2) Spirituality -----> beyond ego----> Guru/disciple

As these two disciplines tend now more than ever to blend, the differences between Guru/disciple and Therapist/client relationship start to fade.

I think a redefinition of this new domain should be done.

Sorry for beeing so long, I got a bit carried away!

Be all well,

Patrick

Re: Introductions

Thu, 22 Nov 2007 04:56:36 GMT

Hey Billy,

Yes :) I agree totally with what you wrote and Byron Katie's writings.

I am learning in the counselling course, and it is how i feel also, as you posted , that it is the responsiblity of the therapist , or teacher, to help people realize for themselves.
To "be the finger pointing to the moon". The teacher or therapist is not the moon itself.

As you wrote: " When her work is done, the people say 'Amazing:we did it, all by ourselves!'" I totally agree with you that this applies to teachers as well as therapists.

It is only ourselves who can set ourselves free. It is only ourselves who thinks we are bound.

The counsellor or teacher(guru) is there as a tool, or to give tools, for people to realize for themselves, if they choose.

By realize, I mean realize your true nature, realize how to come out of suffering....

Wishing all to live as peace,

Soul

Re: Introductions

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:57:54 GMT

Here are some great quotes from Chapter 17 of Byron Katie's latest book A Thousand Names for Joy. It is her commentary on the same chapter of the Tao-Te-Ching that reads, "The Master doesn't talk, she acts. When her work is done, the people say, 'Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!'" I think it applies to teachers as well as therapists:

"If I had a responsibility, it would be to help you realize your own truth. You see it, you say it, it comes from within you, and I am the witness. My finger points you back to you."

"I don't ever see myself as a 'spiritual teacher.' Of course, you can use me by asking me a question. I answer you, you hear what you think I say, and you set yourself free (or not). I am your projection. I am, for you, no more and no less than your story of me.... You give me to you, or you take me from you."

"People can take inquiry (The Work) home with them; they can have it for breakfast every day. This deletes me as the power, and leaves me as something more powerful: an equal, an equal possibility of peace, the student sitting with the student. This is the healthiest scenario, the scenario that deletes the teacher. And aren't teachers wonderful until they're clearly seen by the mature mind?"

"I love it when my job is deleted! Why would I want to be seen as wise or holy? What would I have to gain by that but a story? Whatever realization I've had is for me; there's no way I could give it to you. And even if I could give you my realization, by that very act I would be saying, "You can't do it. I'll do it for you." I'd be teaching dependency and telling you that the answers are somewhere outside you. I have nothing for you but the questions."

(For those who do not know, the above mention of "inquiry" and "the questions" refers to what is known as The Work of Byron Katie -- four questions and a turnaround. See her website for more information (www.thework.com) or read my blogs that are tagged with "The Work of Byron Katie")

Re: Introductions

Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:53:47 GMT

Hi Catherine,

Glad you joined in :)

You wrote...

"He said something to the effect of: don't think you are so special, all you are is people who take out other people's garbage. You are garbage cleaners and don't forget it."

Is that not the same as a guru does?

Remove the obstacles (the garbage) to living as peace, who we are?....

Love to All,

Soul

For Catherine

http://seagull.gaia.com — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:02:32 GMT

Dear Catherine,

Thank you for this.   I completely agree with you. I experienced the same from one of my supervisors when I first began this work.

Have you read John Rowan's book, the therapist's use of self. He refers to the Instrumental self, the authentic self, and the transpersonal self.   As far as I am concerned the transpersonal self is so much easier than the struggles of the instrumental therapist. - creating the wide open field of permission to let the client do his or her own work.

I would like to add, that for me, the guru is within me. I have had 'gurus' in the past, and I have had to kill them on the road!   So where does that leave the guru within me? Hmmm!

Clare

Re: Introductions

http://spiritualshrink.gaia.com — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 06:34:39 GMT

Hello, wanted to share a few thoughts about the guru/disciple, therapist/client discussion:

Back in the 70's some therapists' egos were getting really big and they were being put on pedestals as if they were gurus. It was very beautiful when Osho smashed them. He said something to the effect of: don't think you are so special, all you are is people who take out other people's garbage. You are garbage cleaners and don't forget it.

This has been the thing that has most informed my work for the last 25 years. I don't consider being a therapist any more important that the guy who cleans my office. I help people clean out their psychological garbage and this is a job most people don't want. I attempt each session to do good work, and I am not the best judge of when this happens. One of my first supervisors taught me that often when we think we do our best work, it is because we have satisfied our own ego, and I see that this has been true for me, as has been its opposite - often when I think the session was mediocre or even worthless the client will come back and tell me that that particular session changed their life. So what do I know? It's like that thing Krishna (?) said about do your work but dedicate the fruits of your labor to me. I think we just show up and do our best to serve the client and let go of the results.

I am a disciple of a guru and it is a very different thing than a relationship I would have with a therapist.. I go to a therapist for help with my psychological issues. I go to the guru to experience the bliss of surrender. I would certainly advise my clients to not surrender to me!

-Catherine

Re: Introductions

Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:59:46 GMT

Hi Clare and Billy, good morning lovely therapy friends.....

Welcome to Joy...

I can see the comment i wrote " to me, the guru - counsellor relationship is the same needs some clarification...

This thought came when I went to see Adyashanti give satsang. To me, maybe not to others, he is a guru. I mean that in the purest sense of the word... it means one who dispels darkness..

As I was watching him work with people , the thought came " he is counselling people, it's the same kind of thing..."

Sure, I agree, the word 'guru' conjures up many negative connotations or memories or associations in peoples minds, depending on their past experience or what thee word 'guru' means to them. I am sure the same goes for the word 'counsellor'.
Just as we may see or hear negative rumours about what certain 'gurus' are like at home, I'm sure there are just as many about certain counsellors...

For me, I don't have any negative associations or memories come up from the word 'guru'.

Just like a guru, a counsellor can , when awake, see the truth of non-separation, and so sees the client as themselves, sees beyond duality.There is no 'me' and 'them'... there is a sacred space to invite the client to meet in THIS... to see consciousness in themselves, and the peace that is eternally present. I think this is in agreement to what you guys were saying.

I have ordered the book 'Sacred mirror'... and so look forward to reading it.

I feel blessed to have met you guys and have this opportunity to explore ideas and insights...
Thanks so much,

Peace to All,
Soul

Re: Introductions

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:21:29 GMT

I too was wondering what was meant by "the client-consellor relationship is the same as the guru-disciple relationship..." I guess I have mixed feelings on this one as well. I certainly know of one teacher (Byron Katie, founder of "The Work") who I do not see as a guru, but who might fall into that category. She is constantly teaching, and I am constantly realizing as I do my own Work, that the student is the teacher. The roles are blurry and hard to distinguish.

My role as therapist is to hold the space and ask certain questions that facilitate the client in finding their own answers and truth. Perhaps it is not correct to even say that they find their "own" answers and truth. There does not seem to be any ownership involved at all. Truth is revealed as we both hold the space and open our heart/minds to this holy moment.

I have known "power-hungry" gurus and I have known truly humble gurus who do not set themselves apart from their "so-called students." It seems that nondual therapy is about blurring these distinctions between therapist and client, teacher and student, more and more -- until all distinctions are gone and the holy encounter is all that remains.

Re: Introductions

http://mandalas.gaia.com — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:38:12 GMT

Quick intro: I am an art therapist. Instead of working in an art therapy setting I work with elderly clients in thier homes assisting them with mundane tasks. This way I have access to a wider range of individuals, after all not everyone is interested in art or therapy. I find it to be a perfect setting for holy encounters. They happen with every client almost every day. I feel particuarly well blessed.

Re: Introductions

http://seagull.gaia.com — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:50:40 GMT

Soul,

I forgot to mention, that I too found the Sacred Mirror, to be a superb book, and one worth scribbling notes all over it.

I am sure that there are enough people here on Zaadz posting such wonderful articles and views on life, that we could create another sacred book!!

How about it Billy? (smile)

Clare

Re: Introductions

http://seagull.gaia.com — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:45:43 GMT

Hi Soul,

Lovely to hear that you have had satsangs with Adyashanti. He is a delightful young man, and a fine teacher.

You mention in your post " To me,the client-consellor relationship is the same as the guru-disciple relationship…"

This isnt sitting well with me for now. Are you saying that the counsellor is the Guru, if so, I think it is the use of the word Guru being applied to the counsello that is slightly grating to my energies. I have met 'gurus', in my lifetime, and some of their energies and mine were not quite in harmony. In fact, a deliberate disharmony. To quote Ken Wilber. (not verbatim ) There are many gurus in the world who have grown spiritually, but an awful lot of them are jerks. Reading about their private lives can be quite revealing of their act outs, and uses of power etc.,

So as a Spiritual Companion, and Primal Facilitator,my sense is that if I saw myself as a guru I would be disempowering my clients, and feeding my narcissistic ego.

Billy and I had a conversation a while back about the definition of non-dual psychotherapy. Which was excellent ( Thank you Bily ) And yes we most certainly agree it is a holy encounter - spirit meeting spirit. But the suggestion of Guru to me, says, that "I know everything, and you know nothing " ( I know this is an extreme, but sometimes it can be so )

Walt Whitman ( I think it was he ) once wrote, that when he was a young man, he watched his mother breastfeed his younger brother, and he said it was like watching God pouring God into God. I believe that is what happens in this holy encounter. And yet we are their in our whole humanity with all its faults. Yes, it is an an alliance of God with God, and we, as counsellors, therapists etc., need to be open to receiving as well as giving in this sacred relationship "thus healing the client's (and therapist's) perception of self, other and world. ".

How does this sound to you. I would love to hear of your experience.

Warmly

Clare

Re: Introductions

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:12:29 GMT

I am very familiar with Adya and Gangaji. I have four of Adya's DVDs and two of his books. I have one Gangaji DVD and her book The Diamond in Your Pocket.

The book that introduced me to Adya was The Translucent Revolution by Arjuna Ardagh. This book has a great chapter on psychotherapy. There is also a very good interview with Adya in the book The Sacred Mirror: Nondual Wisdom and Psychotherapy. I highly recommend that last book. Actually, both of them are great.

I would love to attend satsang with either of these teachers. They are truly amazing.

Re: Introductions

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 03:35:42 GMT

Hey Billy,

I too have been inspired by the Byron Katie method and Eckhardt Tolle. I also have been to many satsangs in the past and just recently went to a satsang here in australia with Adyashanti.
You may be interesed in listening to some audios and seeing how he works with people.

Here's his web...

http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=home

Also, here are some youtube snippets of Adyashanti and also a woman called Gangaji.I have tbeen fortunate to attend satsangs with both of them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQD90Las5c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAf03Wvseic

To me,the client-consellor relationship is the same as the guru-disciple relationship...

Enjoy,

Soul

Re: Introductions

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:54:07 GMT

Hi Soul,

Great to have you join this pod. Unfortunately, it is not a very active group. Personally, I have many balls in the air and do not keep up with my two pods very well. I would love to participate in a few good discussions on nondual therapy. Perhaps if you start a new thread on a topic of interest others will join in. Or, you can read the post that I wrote on my definition of nondual therapy and comment on that. I would love to learn from you and your experience. Post away!

Billy

Re: Introductions

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:23:44 GMT

Hi ,

I'm so happy to read this....
I just googled non-dual therapy and found this.... yaaay!

This is a year or so old and I was wondering if anyone here wants to continue this investigation.

I have just begun a counselling course.

Love,
Soul

Re: Motivational Interviewing

http://shannonorama.gaia.com — Wed, 05 Jul 2006 21:39:55 GMT

hey--

i've done my spiel on my history with the Work in the "inquiry" pod, so won't repeat it here...

I am a mental health and addictions counselor, currently working in the "special offenders" unit at a men's prison here in WA state. They are 'special' due to their extreme mental illness. Ever politically correct!

but, I've been on the non-duality road for 10 years or so officially, but had thought that way long before reading my first book, or meeting the first 'teacher' that I met. As I said in the other pod, this is difficult to use with the people that I work with, they are all severely mentally ill. (i mean severely! hearing voices, seeing demons, etc.) But I do manage to get a little in....

I've also read "motivational interviewing" and have attended workshops that lean heavily on it, and have seen videos of Miller and Rollnick doing their thing. Have you seen them? They are fascinating to me in their ability to be so neutral looking and sounding! I have a difficult time in general not jumping around a lot, showing expressions of sympathy, etc. Still, I do use what I can.

I have considered myself a master at developing therapeutic alliance for a long time! It just came naturally. I said about 20 years ago, "if I don't have them by my door, I won't have them for awhile". That being, I would go and get them in the waiting room, and was usually able to 'have them' by the time we reached my office.

this is my first week in Zaadz too. I am working on recruiting some of my more enlightened counselor friends.... thanks for starting this, Billy!

~peace

Shannon

non dual psychotherapy

http://laurenza.gaia.com — Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:18:11 GMT

Hi - I like the ideas presented Billy - it is time for a monumental change in the therapeutic arena. The scientific model still prevades every corner of our culture - especially in the Western world - and it is difficult to introduce the whole spectrum of dimensions beyond the everyday without running against issues such as credibility, legitimacy and accountability. A third dimension is always present in my counselling work, and in times when I am engaged in the lovely Carl Rodgers "unconditional positive regard". Other energy for want of a better word is present, available and enormously helpful and I dont believe we can go on talking about this aspect of our work anecdotally - I believe it needs to be up for a public discussion. I am joining a slowly growing number of therapists who are starting to write about this by using this theme in my Masters thesis topic. The more all "other" phenomena" beyond everyday consensual reality are discussed as a given rather than exception I think we will eventually bring it all out of the closet. Really great to know there are people such as yourself who are thinking in similar ways. Love to hear more! Cheers, Magdalena/Lauren