Gaia: Non-Dual Psychotherapy

Re: Emperor's New Therapy - Cognitive Therapy

http://baumbach.gaia.com — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:40:04 GMT

While I agree in theory with most of what swami says, in practice there are often problems. We who have a wider view of what being alive is all about naturally want to bring our clients, suffering from their narrowed perspective, to where we are, and thus we invite them and give them "travel instructions." What often happens with this approach is that, ultimately, they don't get there. There are several reasons for this.
1) Their narrow vision is perceived by them as who they are. It is thus background and invisible and accompanies them wherever they go.
2) They add the illusion of change to their perspective and thus think they're on the way when they are still where they started.
3) Our own situation differs from theirs not in kind, so much, as in lack of attachment. In order to remain in the world, we must limit ourselves, as they do.

That's why I find the best approach is not to try and bring them to us, but to bring ourselves to them. To enter their world and take up residence. To adopt their perspective (without their attachment) in a sort of individual-sized Boddhisatva vow, and just hang out and help them find their own way rather than to try and give them ours.

Re: What to call my non-dual support group???

http://tely.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:47:39 GMT

My thought about using the terms "awakening" is that I usually hear it used in the context of "ascenders" -- people whose idea of spiritual growth is to deny immanence and the relative reality and to focus on "transcending" (by which they usually mean disowning) these aspects of living, focusing instead on living in their (ideas about) the absolute level of reality, usually as a way of bypassing any difficulty in life.

What about pairing the word "awakening" with "acceptance," which implies an all-inclusive approach that is in line with a nondual path? Something like "Awakening Through Acceptance."

Tely

Re: What to call my non-dual support group???

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:43:29 GMT

Hi Sajit,

Thanks for posting. I had plans to start a group as well, but it never happened. There was not enough interest. Plus, I was charging money for it, and the ones who were interested did not want to pay anything.

I was going to call it the "meditative self-inquiry group." I called it that because the main tools that we were going to use were The Work of Byron Katie and Integrative Restoration (iRest) Yoga Nidra. These are two methods of self-inquiry that I feel are very penetrating. They are methods that are used to deconstruct the false self and reveal True Nature.

You also say, "The group is a support group for women who are already on some kind of a non-dual path and want support in applying the non-dual perspective in the midst of their day-to-day experiences and reactions." How about calling it the "Awakened Living Group"? That name seems to speak to the two movements of "awakening" to who we really are and then "living" that awakening in our day-to-day lives. That is why I call my private practice, "The Center for Awakened Living."

Good luck...

What to call my non-dual support group???

http://sajit.gaia.com — Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:15:37 GMT

Is this discussion group still active? Or has everyone migrated to Facebook?
I would love some suggestions about what to call the women's support group I am starting in the New Year. I am finding that a lot of people I know do not resonate with the term "non-dual", even though they may be on a non-dual spiritual path. So, I'm looking for an alternate term that means the same thing, but would have a broader appeal...or create more of a gut response of "Yeah, that's for me...that's what I'm about!"
The group is a support group for women who are already on some kind of a non-dual path and want support in applying the non-dual perspective in the midst of their day-to-day experiences and reactions.
Would love to hear your ideas!
Thanks,
Sajit

share issues andor address them

http://rosh.gaia.com — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:25:20 GMT

i want to try an experiment what im asking people to do is to put forth any issue they may have if they wish once an issue has been posted i would like those who wish to address this issue and thats all all should feel free to participate or to not participate lets see how this thing plays out

Re: Relating to the ego

http://rosh.gaia.com — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:12:35 GMT

billy i am quite interested in what you are saying here i myself am doing a sort of counseling i devised on my own i had not heard the term nondual psychotherapy but it sounds much like what i do i am sorry to see it seems this pod has not caught on well it is very much up my alley feel free to contact me independently i understand what you say about the ego and it seems quite right the ego is this and the ego is that but the bottom line is that there is none love to all

Relating to the ego

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Sun, 18 May 2008 23:29:19 GMT

Is the ego the enemy? Is it to blame for all of our problems? How does one on the nondual path deal with the ego? At a recent training in Integrative Restoration (iRest) I had a few "experiences" that seem to provide some clues as to how we can relate to the ego.

In both experiences I was in a dyad with a partner. We were taking turns teaching the iRest protocol to an individual. In these experiences I was playing the "student" role.

In one dyad I had a sense of myself as the ego. I "took on" the ego and described it as being much like wearing a mask. I then shifted to Pure Awareness and had a strong sense that the ego was not an enemy. I experienced it with a strong degree of compassion and knew that it had "served me well." I was able to appreciate it. I felt a sense of gratitude and noticed that the spaciousness of Pure Awareness and the gratitude that I was experiencing allowed me to view the ego in a way that I never had before. I felt "friendly" towards it. I actually saw the ego as a friend.

During another dyad I had a felt-experience of Pure Awareness as a loss of boundaries. I felt completely merged with all that was around me and had no sense of my physical body. At one point my partner asked me to "step back into" the experience of being a self, and I could actually feel my body re-materializing. It was as if the back of my body, the part that was "against" the floor, was retracting (drawing in) from the floor and re-forming as my body. I found myself laughing out-loud. My partner asked me what I was experiencing. I explained to the best of my ability and told her that I saw it as very humorous -- the body re-forming out of emptiness, the ego re-asserting itself -- it was all so funny to me.

Both of these experiences have helped me to see the ego -- the sense of being a separate self with a separate body -- as something to appreciate and as something to "in-joy." It is the play of form. I try not to take it so seriously anymore.

Here is a great quote from Papaji (Wake up and Roar). In this quote the waves of the ocean are the play of form. The ocean itself is Source. The ego exists in the waves. I am is the Source from which the waves of form and ego emerge:

"To become something, to expect something, you have to do something. To remain I am, you don't have to do anything. Its fullness is emptiness. I am is the ocean, and the waves are the cosmos, the universe, all happenings. And you can enjoy. This is called Leela's sport [God's play]."

Re: Teaching Yoga Nidra

http://seagull.gaia.com — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 09:08:58 GMT

Thank you Billy,

I enjoyed reading your handout very much. Now could I ask you. Imagine that I am aged 10, how could you say the same to me.....in language which my soul would understand?

One comment I would like to make is to reassure your students that this process doesnt happen in a week, or a month or a year but may take a whole lifetime. ( I have rarely encountered somone who was aware of their true nature without have had to plough the furrow so to speak - usually is is a state and not a stage) I have had many many dark nights of the senses, down through the years, and always thought that they were the dark night of the soul, but alas no....I have had just one dark night of the soul, and this lasted daily for nine months!! and only after 25 years of self enquiry and meditation.....

You students are getting the best Billy - congratulations

Clare

Re: Teaching Yoga Nidra

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:42:06 GMT

I think the class is going very well. This past Thursday was the second class. I have two more to go. I am really appreciating the feedback that I am getting from the participants. They are helping me to hone my skills and to determine what elements to emphasis and which ones I can do without or minimize.

Here is my latest blog entry that is also a handout that i will be giving them next week. Let me know what you think about this. Does it make sense? Is it too abstract? Would it make sense to a beginner to meditation / nondualism?

http://billyledford.zaadz.com/blog/2007/12/from_conceptual_to_perceptual_mountains

Thanks,
Billy

Re: Is the non-dual therapist doing the work of a guru?

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:34:09 GMT

Patrick wrote:

"I think a redefinition of this new domain should be done"

Here is my definition of nondual psychotherapy. There are other definitions bust most of them seem to have the same basic elements.

The goal of nondual therapy is to discover who we are without our stories and to expand our capacity to embody our True Nature - our Welcoming, Spacious Awareness - in every aspect of our lives.

Nondual therapy is rooted in the assumption that our perception of "problems" is itself the problem (which really isn't a problem). The self-improvement project is a subtle form of self-directed aggression. Who we are does not need improving.

By de-constructing our "self and world construct system" (James Bugental's term) we are able to uncover our underlying, unchanging equanimity, or Presence, and strengthen our capacity to embody Awareness in our day-to-day existence.

This therapeutic process occurs in a certain type of relationship - a "holy encounter" in which what is awake in the therapist meets what is awake in the client - thus healing the client's (and therapist's) perception of self, other and world.

Glad you joined the discussion, Patrick. What do you think of this definition? I agree with Soul that there is a difference between traditional psychotherapy which seems to be more about ego development and adaptation to some definition of normality and what is referred to as nondual psychotherapy.

Later,
Billy

Is the non-dual therapist doing the work of a guru?

Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:12:28 GMT

Hi All, To continue from Patrick, who wrote... "This thing about Guru and therapist is quite tricky I think. I used to be very clear about the boundaries, knowing both worlds (therapy and beeing a disciple). But with time I'm less and less sure of these two kinds of relationship beeing so different. I think maybe they did also co-evolve in the pas few decades, each one influencing the other: - Spirituality entering and modifying the realm of psychotherapy - Psychotherapy entering the realm of spirituality and modifying it. Will they merge in the end? Historically I think we all agree to say that psychotherapy appeared when God (or the Gods) was killed by man (Freud, end of the 19th century, age of mind, science and questionning God, the father's authority and so on). Confessions and healing the soul was taken away from the priests and a non.religious setting was created:psychotherapy. If we did belittle religion's authority (Christianism) on us at that time, it certainly came back with a profound interest for eastern models and ways of thinking. But I'm going astray here..sorry. Here are some similiarities (not an exhasutive list by any mean) that I see in those two relationships (Guru/disciple and Therapist/client): - both aim at knowledge of the self and increased harmony - transferance is part of both processes - change is a central notion Psychotherapy, though, was developped to help “sick” people to recover their normal functionning. Spirituality 's aim is to help human beeings develop further from normality, or beyond normality. Psychotherapy used to deal with the relative self, the ego: how to strenghten it, make it healthy and capable of functionning in society. Spirituality does not really care about the relative self, or ego.On the opposite, it tends to help us disidentify with it and establish ourselves into another “self” - broader, more encompassing, loving and finally no-self. So we can say that psychotherapy's point of focus was the mind. Spirituality's focus is “beyond mind”, or developing the higher mind (Buddhi) and ultimately go beyond mind. These are very different area's of work. But as I've said earlier, Spirituality has fecundated psychotherapy in the last decades (Humanism, transpersonal and so on), and it is now frequent that psychotherapists work not only on the ego, but also help their clients go beyond ego. So I'd summarize it this way: 1)Psychotherapy —> ego—-> therapist/client 2) Spirituality —–> beyond ego—-> Guru/disciple As these two disciplines tend now more than ever to blend, the differences between Guru/disciple and Therapist/client relationship start to fade. I think a redefinition of this new domain should be done." Continuing the conversation.... I think when comparing a non -dual therapy work to the work of a guru, it is not psychotherapy that is bing likened to the work of a guru/teacher, but non-dual therapy work. Psychotherapy is the study of the mind, whereas the non-dual therapits work , like that of the guru is to go beyond the mind. Point people to that , and assist them in finding stability in that. That doesn't mean denying the mind and thoughts, there is still awareness of the mind's activities, but who we are need not be affected by the mind's activities... we can act from a truer knowing of who we are.... Love , Soul

Re: Introductions

Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:46:03 GMT

Hi Patrick..

Will continue in discussions thread....

In Peace,
Soul

Re: Introductions

Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:32:27 GMT

Hello Soul,

Thanks for your post. Yes I'd like to carry on...but I need fuel....I mean you.....and all other members.

I don't want to simply do my monologue! Your post was very nice and I hope it could be the beginning of an interesting thread.

Be well,

Patrick

Re: Teaching Yoga Nidra

http://mandalas.gaia.com — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:31:35 GMT

"Skipping the middle man" is really to the point. All this about others is merely projection. It's your own story about yourself. Have you ever felt connected to the source of Being? If you have return there. You can do so in any given moment. If you haven't you can do it now. The source of Being is the closest thing to you, so close its easy to overlook. It is the essence of non-duality. It fullfills any "need" you ever had because you are being yourself in complete fullness. All needs drop away. May you have this experience in its entirety!
Namaste
Joy

Re: Introductions

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:30:37 GMT

Hi Patrick,

i'm glad you got carried away, and I hope you keep writing...

Love what you wrote:)

Enjoy this blessed day, with all it's waves....

Soul

Re: Teaching Yoga Nidra

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:28:22 GMT

Hi Billy,

Is that one true.. "I need to impress myself" ?

Maybe it's the method that is impressive and not 'anyone'....

After all, who is it that is teaching?

have a great day,
Soul

Re: Teaching Yoga Nidra

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:23:03 GMT

"I need to impress them"

1) Is it true?
No -- I can not know that is what I "need"

(Skip question #2 since my answer to #1 was "no")

3) How do I react when I believe that thought?
I spend a lot of money putting together very nice binders full of handouts. I spend much time at my computer writing an outline, creating new handouts, etc. I go over in my mind what I am going to do, what I am going to say. I imagine them coming up to me afterwards saying how much they loved it -- how it was the best class they have ever attended. I also start to think that this will not happen -- that they will not be impressed. I stress myself out imaging their responses to the class. Imagining their responses to me. I take whatever happens as a comment on me as a person, a therapist, a teacher, etc.

4) Who would I be without this thought?
Relaxed. Teaching a class. Letting them have the experience that they have. Allowing them to have their own impression. Much less stress. A friend. Loving what ever happens.

Turn the thought around...

"I do not need to impress them"
So true. "I" actually might need to get out of the picture completely. If anything impresses them it will be themselves. They create their own impression of me, of Yoga Nidra, and I have nothing to do with that. Also, perhaps Yoga Nidra is not for them. I would not want them to be impressed with something that is not for them. I also do not want to be a dictator -- dictating to them, "Be impressed!" I want them to be free to have their own experience and learn to welcome that -- even if it is an experience of boredom, resistance, dis-like, etc.

"They need to impress me"
Also true. I need to be their student. I want them to impress upon me their needs in the moment so that I can tailor my presentation to them.

"I need to impress myself"
I am the one wanting to be impressed by me. I do not need them to do that for me. Plus, if I manipulate them into being impressed by spending money on the binders, creating nice handouts, etc., can I know that they are really impressed with me? If I have to manipulate them, can I trust what they say is true? Do I want that type of impression on their minds? Why not skip the middle man and be impressed with myself.

Re: Teaching Yoga Nidra

http://seagull.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:15:09 GMT

Hello Billy,

Very good on teaching the class, and doing it for free.

Interesting that you want to question your stressful thoughts before you do it. Maybe its something around wanting to impress? Thats usually a stress marker. And friends are usually the first to critique our egos. What part of you needs to impress, and what part of you, is giving freely of yourself. Maybe the same part, You are more than the sum of all your parts Billy.

Whatever arises, its still you . And go well with the journey.

Best

C

Teaching Yoga Nidra

http://billyledford.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 04:15:23 GMT

Thursday I am going to start teaching a four-week class on Integrative Restoration - iRest - Yoga Nidra. I am doing this for free so I can get practice in teaching it to a group. I am both excited and nervous about this. Most of the participants are friends of mine, but I still want to impress. Perhaps I need to question my stressful thoughts before I do it. I will post more after the first class to let all of you know how I think it went.

Later,
Billy

Re: Introductions

Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:19:47 GMT

Hello to all,

I was dumbfounded at reading Catherine Auman's post when she quoted Osho saying therapist work with garbage: that's what I've been thinking about my job for a few years now. I usually say that I'm a garbage man for people's mind! But that's where my comparison with Osho will stop!

This thing about Guru and therapist is quite tricky I think. I used to be very clear about the boundaries, knowing both worlds (therapy and beeing a disciple). But with time I'm less and less sure of these two kinds of relationship beeing so different.

I think maybe they did also co-evolve in the pas few decades, each one influencing the other:

- Spirituality entering and modifying the realm of psychotherapy

- Psychotherapy entering the realm of spirituality and modifying it.

Will they merge in the end?

Historically I think we all agree to say that psychotherapy appeared when God (or the Gods) was killed by man (Freud, end of the 19th century, age of mind, science and questionning God, the father's authority and so on). Confessions and healing the soul was taken away from the priests and a non.religious setting was created:psychotherapy.

If we did belittle religion's authority (Christianism) on us at that time, it certainly came back with a profound interest for eastern models and ways of thinking.

But I'm going astray here..sorry.

Here are some similiarities (not an exhasutive list by any mean) that I see in those two relationships (Guru/disciple and Therapist/client):

- both aim at knowledge of the self and increased harmony

- transferance is part of both processes

- change is a central notion

Psychotherapy, though, was developped to help "sick" people to recover their normal functionning. Spirituality 's aim is to help human beeings develop further from normality, or beyond normality. Psychotherapy used to deal with the relative self, the ego: how to strenghten it, make it healthy and capable of functionning in society. Spirituality does not really care about the relative self, or ego.On the opposite, it tends to help us disidentify with it and establish ourselves into another "self" - broader, more encompassing, loving and finally no-self.

So we can say that psychotherapy's point of focus was the mind. Spirituality's focus is "beyond mind", or developing the higher mind (Buddhi) and ultimately go beyond mind.

These are very different area's of work.

But as I've said earlier, Spirituality has fecundated psychotherapy in the last decades (Humanism, transpersonal and so on), and it is now frequent that psychotherapists work not only on the ego, but also help their clients go beyond ego.

So I'd summarize it this way:

1)Psychotherapy ---> ego----> therapist/client

2) Spirituality -----> beyond ego----> Guru/disciple

As these two disciplines tend now more than ever to blend, the differences between Guru/disciple and Therapist/client relationship start to fade.

I think a redefinition of this new domain should be done.

Sorry for beeing so long, I got a bit carried away!

Be all well,

Patrick