Avoiding the Void

A very good paper:

Avoiding the Void

ST

Re: Avoiding the Void

Whew!

Re: Avoiding the Void

Yes, whew! 

Big bow to a fellow whewer,

ST

Re: Avoiding the Void

nicely expressed i thought.  thanks for the link.

Re: Avoiding the Void

This is cross posted in Dreams of Artists with conversations to listen to too.

Happiness & joy today.

Re: Avoiding the Void

i have a little point about the paper.  the paper suggests that the core fear is not the fear of death - but the fear that self already does not exist in this moment… but really - i don't think that is the fear that drives most people through their lives… i think it is actually,  the fear of death that drives people through many decisions, reactions etc.  Every person, does indeed have a sense of self… even if that sense of self is framed in non-dualistic terms of arising from previous conditions (thereby having no independant existance)  - it STILL is a sense of self… albeit, an evolving one… and that sense of self continues to have experience of struggle, suffering, joy, freedom …  “you” or “i” have those personal experiences - we know what it feels like. 

but most people don't talk or think in this way.  they are simply them”selves”… separate and in relationship with all sorts of other “selves”.  and so, always aware of their separateness - death is the “enemy”… the end-of-“me”.

as far as the samskaras etc - those shadows of habit, propensities, reactive tendancies that apparently exist as a “stream” independant and deeper than the living story of self that is remembered only in body - yet also individual in nature travelling through the bardos of existance, one body after another …  i understand that conceptually and i find that the concept abates my own personal fear of death, and so therefore, the concept pleases me… - but i have no PERSONAL wisdom or knowing or the existance - in other words - i do not remember the inbetween bardos and i do not definitely remember other lives - although sometimes i can IMAGINE that i do… but - i doubt if that is the same thing… really - all for sure is my “self” as “i am” in this body, with this conditioning … and when death comes… i have no idea.

Re: Avoiding the Void

….so, to finish off a point - what is the best that i can do?  i realize my “self” is evolving and changing in every moment - and therefore i am not so attached to what that “self” is.  and there is the animation, the livingness of life under that.  so, i can tune into that and not worry so much about my”self”.  It isn't a matter of avoiding my”self” or diminishing my”self” - because it is always integrally “me”.  but, in simple resting, the laying down of the constant struggle - my”self” does not evaporate or dissolve in oneness, but simply rests in “it's” natural place.  and so, to live like that - through life - then death will arise anyway, inevitably, and to meet death also in that same way … resting with my”self” in it's natural place… that's my plan.  to rest with death… as i rest with life - not worrying about what will arise so much. 

so many words to describe… therefore so many words to misunderstand.

do you know what i mean by rest?  it does not mean to do nothing.  it does not mean to not make choices.  it does not mean that there will not be challenges and responsibilities.  it means a fuller settling into existance, not avoiding conditions that arise - including impending death… mmm… a metaphor for rest - is like a leaf - that, in its own natural place arises from the knowledge of the tree in winter rest - and then buds and sprouts and grows and carries out it's leafy purpose, it's greenness making food from sunlight … then in the fall drops and falls to the ground and elegantly decomposes and becomes the earth that feeds the tree … and bugs … and fungus …

that's what resting is… the leaf… except with us - we have mind… and so we must learn to rest with that as well… mind being one of our tools AND integral aspect of our”self”  - like the greenness is both a tool AND integral aspect of the leaf.

Re: Avoiding the Void

mmm… one more string of thought….
the greenness is the leaf. the leaf and tree uses it… and is inseparable from the tree and from the earth that the tree arises from, and from the seed of origin and the seeds that arise yearly from the fertilized blossoms… and the leaves that arise year after year - and the even the sunlight and the water … the bees that pollenate, the birds that perch, the ivy that grows up, the fungus that decomposes, the man that cuts and makes something out of wood, or eats the fruit…

and so it is, with us. with our”selves” intact - yet changing… yet mortal. self is mortal. mind is mortal - yet exists - different in every moment… until self does not exist. so that - is the key to our peace of mind… resting with death… and making that the centerpoint of life.

does a leaf struggle with it's inevitable death… i don't think so… but i don't know for sure…
and are we, with bodies of cells and structure… are we that different?

i don't know for sure, but i suspect that a life lived from the perspective of rest is full and deep … and that death, when it arises, will just arise………

ok - i'm done.

Re: Avoiding the Void

Thank you arpita… I always appreciate the deep reads you give and look forward to ST's response… Just wanted you to know you are read.  ~k

Re: Avoiding the Void

The deepest fear, is that we did not live a life of unconditional love for the betterment of others… 

The fear of death is a distraction… a rational comfort that our lack of compassion for others becomes absorbed in our own mortality….

The only fear of death… is that we did not make a difference in the lives of others… 

Let's focus on our actions of the present… and not our fears of the future that are due to our inaction in the now.

Re: Avoiding the Void

hello Dave
can we live a life of unconditional love for the betterment of others?  i think we all do our best - yet i don't think that any  of us love unconditionally… and in fact our love is very conditioned… in one way or another… even conditioned by spiritual language…

i agree that fear of death is a distraction - from living deeply - yet for many many people, that very fear shapes their whole lives…  and i do not believe that most people are afraid that they did not make a difference in the life of others… more likey people are afraid  that their personal life is meaningless.
but in that - with our loving and our living and our thinking that is conditioned - we do our best… and that looks different for every person… so one believes they are loving while warring with others who believe they are loving.

we can focus on our actions of the present - yet many of our actions arise out of fear, or modulated hope which is also fear … or to clinging to some relationships that appear to give our own life meaning… because we seem to need that meaning.  so meaning is found in islam, or in christianity, or in goddess worship, or a heritage, or in acheiving power, or in accumulating things like money or possessions or an education, or in having a spiritual outlook.

sometimes life has no meaning.  sometimes all there is  - is to rest in the pain as it arises in this world.  sometimes inaction is the action rather than to become attached to one's own “position” as being right.

unconditional love is a conveniant term - but it doesn't mean much of anything.   naked love is something we all do  - but we all cover it over with our ideas of things… including the idea of unconditional.  everywhere there is that love but it doesn't translate nakedly into concepts.. and it gets mixed in with our conflicting indoctrinations.

the whole thing is a mess. 

i don't have any answers these days - and i am tired of asking questions.  so - i rest with it.  i rest with the suffering and i rest with the beauty.  i ride the wave, resting with the decisions that other people make based on what they think is right.

for me, i don't know what is right.
that naked love does not know what is right.

this is what i do.  a poem recited by Sogyal Rinpoche  - i posted it on this pod some months ago … here it is again.
http://www.peterrussell.com/SpiritAwake/rest.php

Re: Avoiding the Void

yes, that's it, Christine. Thank you for saying it all so clearly and for the poem - I think of the words, “underneath are the everlasting arms”

peace,

nicole

Re: Avoiding the Void

Christine, reading your words, feeling the fit of them, nodding, yes, yes. Thank you. And for the link, so beautifully apt.

Resting now.

Ruth

Re: Avoiding the Void

I don't recall the article. No memory.  :O) 

I do recall it was academic in its delivery (nonpulp) and I felt there was some value to it outside of the mundane and pseudo-spiritual.  

I was once very intellectual and loved the academic.  

Now, I eat when I am hungry, sleep when I am sleepy, etc.  

A Story:

Bankei opened a Zen school not far away from another Buddhist school. Over a few weeks, many students from the other school began to attend Bankei's lectures. Eventually the other school's Master called on Bankei, who was in the middle of a lecture. The other Master scolded his students for abandoning his school, and yelled at Bankei, saying that *his* teacher could perform miracles such as walking on water and signing his name from the other side of a river. Bankei replied, My miracle is that when I'm hungry, I eat, and when I am tired, I sleep.   

If we are lucky enough to reach Formal Operations (Piaget)  abstract thought  it is then that we try to apprehend reality and spirituality intellectually but we are still caught up in the pathological ego and thirst for the heroic and sometimes magical as we hide our thirst beneath the elevated. The other school's master was still locked into Formal Operations with magical and mythical thinking. He was still ego-bound and not enlightened.  

Gautama Buddha taught nonself. Once Gautama Buddha's disciples came up to him deriding a group of people who taught the self. Buddha said to them that clinging to nonself was just as bad as clinging to self.  

Clinging to anything as if it was not transient causes unnecessary suffering. So, if we cling to the idea that the self is not temporary or that life is not temporary, we are self-deluding and will cause ourselves unnecessary suffering and others unnecessary suffering if they disagree with us.  

The Concrete Operational (rule/role consciousness - Piaget) and the Formal Operational self relate to anyone who does not agree with them as being essentially the enemy but it is much less with the Formal Operational consciousness … more like The Opposition. Hence the Formal Operational word, tolerance. Yes? LOL  

Anyway, for people who are still in the cognitive stages (Sensorimotor, Concrete Operations, and Formal Operations) other (someone or something outside of one's embraced sphere) is generally regarding as threatening to the self  as in, mortally threatening. Primitive responses thus arise.  

But the above is bordering on the academic, and I am beginning to wonder what I am talking about and why. So, I will cut to the chase.  

To realize illumination/enlightenment, the mind is first secured (Formal Operations) and then dropped or decentralized (Subtle Consciousness). In Subtle Consciousness, direct experience is the Path. Intellect is merely a supporting vehicle.  

Eating, sleeping, chopping wood and carrying water all is complete and illuminated.  

Mystery is the alpha and omega of existence. Intellectual apprehension is the periphery of real existence, belonging to the time of delusion and ego.  

The Sacred is embodied in the heart, not the mind.  

There is both self and nonself. Also, our fears are always a function of our stage of consciousness and our conditioning. Some people fear death; others fear life; others fear nonself; and others fear self.  

Some people accused Gautama of preaching nihilism. He said he does not teach nihilism but rather teaches suffering, its causes, the reduction of suffering, and the path leading to the end of suffering.  

There is nothing to grasp.  

GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA:   GONE, GONE, GONE BEYOND, COMPLETELY GONE BEYOND, ENLIGHTENMENT, HAIL 

Within our hearts is the gone, gone, gone beyond, completely gone beyond.   No other words suffice.    

I see the Buddha in you. It has nothing to do with the mind.  

We can have Buddha dog.  

We can have Buddha child.  

We can have Buddha Gramma.  

We can have Buddha rock.  

GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA    

You go into the marketplace barefooted, unadorned, Smeared with mud, covered with dust, smiling. Using no supernatural power You bring the withered trees to bloom.    Kuoan    

It is like that!  

ST

Re: Avoiding the Void

Namasté

I have learned about rudiments.  Eat well, sleep well are two essentials to help survive in life.  I have noticed that when those two things are not in a daily routine, it affects our metabolism.  It helps on a void of omission to be at cause over projects.  With babies, they are first wet, hungry or tired to differentiate the cries to help get their rudiments in.  From checking these three things, then the cry can be of protest or hurt which can be worked on with different forms of communicating and handling any upsets.  There are also daily rudiments in handling life but simple is the most genius.

Here are the 24 traits of a genius.  Just by looking up the key words in the dictionary anyone's IQ shoots up.

The worlds greatest geniuses have all had 24 personality characteristics in common and you can develop the same traits yourself, says an expert. “Most people have the mistaken idea that geniuses are born, not made ”, declared clinical psychologist Dr. Alfred Barrious, founder and director of the Self-Programmed Control Center of Los Angeles and author of the book, Towards Greater Freedom and Happiness. But if you look at the lives of the worlds greatest geniuses like Edison, Socrates, DaVinci, Shakespeare, Einstein, you will discover they all had 24 personality characteristics in common.

These are traits that anyone can develop. It makes no difference how old you are, how much education you have, or what you have accomplished to date. Adopting these personality characteristics enables you to operate on a genius level. Here are the Characteristics Dr. Barrios lists, which enable geniuses to come up with and develop new and fruitful ideas:

DRIVE. Geniuses have a strong desire to work hard and long. They're willing to give all they've got to a project. Develop your drive by focusing on your future success, and keep going.

COURAGE. It takes courage to do things others consider impossible. Stop worrying about what people will think if you're different.

DEVOTION TO GOALS. Geniuses know what they want and go after it. Get control of your life and schedule. Have something specific to accomplish each day.

KNOWLEDGE. Geniuses continually accumulate information. Never go to sleep at night without having learned at least one new thing each day. Read. And question people who know.

HONESTY. Geniuses are frank, forthright and honest. Take the responsibility for things that go wrong. Be willing to admit, I goofed, and learn from your mistakes.

OPTIMISM. Geniuses never doubt they will succeed. Deliberately focus your mind on something good coming up.

ABILITY TO JUDGE. Try to understand the facts of a situation before you judge. Evaluate things on an opened minded, unprejudiced basis and be willing to change your mind.

ENTHUSIASM. Geniuses are so excited about what they are doing, it encourages others to cooperate with them. Really believe that things will turn out well. Don't hold back.

WILLINGNESS TO TAKE CHANCES. Overcome your fear of failure. You won't be afraid to take chances once you realize you can learn from your mistakes.

DYNAMIC ENERGY. Don't sit on your butt waiting for something good to happen. Be determined to make it happen.

ENTERPRISE. Geniuses are opportunity seekers. Be willing to take on jobs others won't touch. Never be afraid to try the unknown.

PERSUASION. Geniuses know how to motivate people to help them get ahead. You'll find it easy to be persuasive if you believe in what you're doing.

OUTGOINGNESS. I've found geniuses able to make friends easily and be easy on their friends. Be a “booster” not somebody who puts others down. That attitude will win you many valuable friends.


ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE. Geniuses are able to effectively get their ideas across to others. Take every opportunity to explain your ideas to others.

PATIENCE. Be patient with others most of the time, but always be impatient with your self. Expect far more of yourself than others.

PERCEPTION. Geniuses have their mental radar working full time. Think more of others needs and wants than you do of your own.

PERFECTIONISM. Geniuses cannot tolerate mediocrity, particularly in themselves. Never be easily satisfied with your self. Always strive to do better.

SENSE OF HUMOR. Be willing to laugh at your own expense. Don't take offense when the joke is on you.

VERSATILITY. The more things you learn to accomplish, the more confidence you will develop. Don't shy away from new endeavors.

ADAPTABILITY. Being flexible enables you to adapt to changing circumstances readily. Resist doing things the same old way. Be willing to consider new options.

CURIOSITY. An inquisitive, curious mind will help you seek out new information. Don't be afraid to admit you don't know it all. Always ask questions about things you don't understand.

INDIVIDUALISM. Do things the way you think they should be done, without fearing somebody's disapproval.

IDEALISM. Keep your feet on the ground but have your head in the clouds. Strive to achieve great things, not just for yourself, but for the better of mankind.

IMAGINATION. Geniuses know how to think in new combinations, see things from a different perspective, than anyone else. Unclutter your mental environment to develop this type of imagination. Give yourself time each day to daydream, to fantasize, to drift into a dreamy inner life the way you did as a child.

1980 National Enquirer/Transworld Features

Re: Avoiding the Void

That is a very dull definition of a genius!
My definition of a genius includes many people who are not famous, are not listened to, yet who are able to think in ways that many so called geniuses (genii ?) would envy.

I'm afraid that the above list looks (to me) more like a wish list for non genii. I guess that I use the G word for people who are naturally exceptional, not self created or self-publicising . Society seems to reserve the term for people who have reached the top, and even awards it to people who clearly have stolen at least some of their ideas (so much for honesty!)

The greatest genius that I have been privileged to be close friends with was dreadful at “eating when he was hungry” etc yet his mathematical work can be found in almost every audio device, his methods of recording (Ambisonics) are universally used in the recording industry, and he has a massive dedicated section in the national sound archives (including sixty recordings of me!).

I do not aspire to being a “Genius” yet I am creative, and as an outsider artist I avoid accepting the “given world” as a fixed platform on which to build.
And yes,   I too recommend paying attention to good regular food, sleep etc. I live in a country full of slightly ill people.

Re: Avoiding the Void

awesome!!!  It would be wonderful to meet your friend's work.  Very very very well done on doing 60 recordings!  It would be fun to hear one some day my friend.

Re: Avoiding the Void

ST do you think that once a person has reached enlightenment that death is necessary?  It seems that Boddhitsatva's? i know i butchered that :(  stay behind to teach us if i'm not mistaken on how to live a life without suffering.  What are they leaving behind?  I thought about it for a while and came to the maybe flawed conclusion that in life, there are always extraneous issues that will cause stress and suffering and that the only relief from that suffering is the acceptance of death.  But if that is the case then why should we live in the first place…  it seems as though the spirit knows that it cannot be truly happy here but the body requires it to for it's own reasons.  Kinda weird, a little depressing, and then a little hopeful.

Could you help steer me in the right direction?

*bow*
Carl

Re: Avoiding the Void

Hi Carl,

You are the captain of your soul.

There are all types of ideas about death and what happens after death. Most are ridiculous.  

When we look at life and the physical world, what do we see? We see life emerge from nonself elements and then die, turning again into non-self elements. This process also happens during life but certain architectures are maintained, giving the illusion of nondeath.

Over the lifetime, we all die a few times and emerge as something/someone new until our changing architecture of rebirth is extinguished (final death of the bodymind). Only memory gives the illusion of being or having been one person. What happened to your former selves? They just dissolved and/or became other forms, and they now “exist” only as abstract and mutable memory.


If you become aware of your Center, ideas about life and death, hell and heaven, annihilation and eternal life, etc - all such ideas are of no concern. Knowing your Center, life is a joy and a Mystery, and a great love emerges in such a way that only a moment here is a great Benediction.


A few times, I was close to death. Whether I lived or died did not matter. Death was sweet and life was sweet. Equal partners and both very beautiful. Life and Death walk hand-in-hand.


When the Love is realized, eternal life doesn't matter. When the Love is realized, annihilation doesn't matter.


No one knows what really happens after the body dies. But we can know that Divine Love where it doesn't matter.


Much love to you,


ST

Re: Avoiding the Void

I agree Kathy.  When the body dies, there will be no instrument for us to perceive the world with anymore, and after that, it's anyones guess, but i'd have to say that you wouldn't realize what “I” means anymore if you were sentient at all.  it would be like trying to remember the state of mind of how it was like before you were born.  I think this is of great peace of mind.  There is no ego, there is no conditioning or suffering.  ;)