Gaia: The Poet with the Soul of a Scientist - Fundamental stuff - Mitochondria

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Sat, 05 Aug 2006 03:32:41 GMT

Josh: the separation of spirituality and the physical realms (Stephen Jay Gould uses the word magesteria and says the two are non-overlapping (Rock of Ages)) was a cultural necessity during the Protestant Revolution. Because of this divergence, the scientific method could be explored and developed. This culminated in the Modern Era, during which the trend was developing artifacts as far removed from nature as possible. Life as we know it today could not have arisen if the division of spirit and the physical world had not happened.

So when you think about a physical proof taking away from spiritual validity, you arenèt being incorrect, historically.

Me, I think we have to integrate the two again in order to save the future.
By knowing where life energy comes from--actually, not metaphorically or metaphysically--we can continue on what effects that could have.

Re: Mitochondria

http://lostandfound.gaia.com — Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:32:37 GMT

"Mitochondria provide the energy needed to vibrate. "

What gives mitochondria its engergy needed to vibrate?

Re: Mitochondria

http://lostandfound.gaia.com — Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:31:12 GMT

Perhaps its my ignorance on the topic of spirituality, but how could a physical condition be the grounds for spiritual work? Would not proving this actually take away from spirituality in a way?

Perhaps I am not thinking of spirutality correctly, but I always thought it delt with that which is beyond the physical. Is that not so?

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:16:37 GMT

Hey, Josh. Synergy (the whole being greater than the sum of the parts) is of vital importance here. As is symbiosis (two or more species mutually assisting each other). With mitochondria, the merging took place over 800 million years ago (give or take an epoch or two) and this allowed for multi-cellular organisms to develop.

There is nothing here that negates the need for competition (and yes, it is unrealistic to declare this unnecessary). What seems to happen a lot is a few species co-exist together, competing among themselves more than with other species, and the whole ecology ticks along nicely. And there will always be predators and parasites to contend with once in a while, and that's competition, too.

Keep in mind that I'm developing the spiritual aspects of this as we go here. I've been scanning book indexes (indices, using an older pluralization) for anyone else who has thought of mitochondria as life energy in a spiritual way and so for I'm the only one I've found. It's rather lonely, which is why I'm sharing these ideas at Zaadz.

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:00:16 GMT

I fully admit the idea of soul is wishful thinking. I was an atheist for a while until I stopped defining myself by the lack of something (a-theos = no God, for those into etymology) but I didn't know what that was until I came across my current appellation, and lo, the Etceterist unfolded.

What I wish is that whatever "I" am, I resonate at a frequency that has harmonies all the way up and down the magnitudes of existence in an "As above, so below" way, or using fractal geometries if you like. A cosmic "chord" to maintain the metaphor. My sense of awareness will never happen again, but I wish that my experience revivifies the harmonies of existence that allowed me to be.

Mitochondria provide the energy needed to vibrate.

Re: Mitochondria

Thu, 03 Aug 2006 02:10:28 GMT

I do think "mind" and "soul" are different: mind is the process of the brain; soul is wishful thinking. Before my body developed, I wasn't. After it stops working, I won't be.

It's a tough worldview, but it strikes me as the only one that's honest. And it's the one that makes me most likely to live each day fully, to be as kind as possible to those around me (if I screw this up, I won't get another chance!), and to be truly grateful for the opportunities that my short time here offers.

Re: Mitochondria

http://lostandfound.gaia.com — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:06:30 GMT

This is all very interesting, and im not sure what to make of it. Are we what the mitochondria form with or are we the sum total of the all the parts, including the mitochondria.

Aristotle said that we are more then the sum total of our parts. I wonder how this is relevant here.

While unrealistic, I do like the idea that its possible that we can all co-exist rather then compete.

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:55:42 GMT

Hey, thanks for the positive feedback! I've been struggling in my head, wondering if maybe I was shouting at my own echo here. I'd started growing fond of the tumbleweeds.

I've only read A Wrinkle in Time, but you're the second person to reference L'Engle, so now I gots to read the rest. Be interesting to find out her take on mitochondria.

I don't know that "soul" exists either, even though it's in my pod name. Finding out is the reason I'm here at Zaadz (and possibly here on Earth). The mitochondria are certainly what the alchemists called "spirit" or life energy; that which animates us. Soul is (at my current phase of thought) a pattern of energy that endures beyond the meat, having come from a time before the meat was formed. So, yeah, it's just a nice idea.

Still trying to decide if "mind" and "soul" really have any difference.

And inclinations? Nah, just doesn't have the same punch.

Re: Mitochondria

Wed, 02 Aug 2006 02:02:46 GMT

Hey, Etc.,

I totally dig this. Hubby was impressed that you got the scientific info right, too (he doesn't expect that from zaadsters).

I take it you've read the L'Engle trilogy? I can't remember which book it's in, but in one of them the mitochondria are part of the plot. Very cool.

They are clearly the source of our life energy...I don't know that "soul" actually exists, or how or why such a thing could or would manifest as molecular beings in our cells, but it's a nice idea, I guess.

Maybe you should call the pod "Poet with the Inclinations of a Scientist," then you wouldn't be attached to the concept of "soul."... (cackle).

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:23:22 GMT

The more I think about this subject, the more I'm convinced I'm heading in the best direction for full integration of science and spirituality. Today, I feel a little glum regarding this calling that has found me, since those firmly entrenched in either side seem to out-right dismiss the other. I find myself spanning the middle. This is not an unusual place for me, but that doesn't make my chore any easier.

I admit to hoping that someone, somewhere has done some work on mitochondria as the source of spirit (as the alchemists called life energy, which they saw as different from soul), but there is a noticeable dirth.

The work must fall to me, it seems, and I have to come to terms with that.

For starters, check out this assertion that no one knows how the symbiosis began: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tr76/reviews/symbiosis/symbiois_review.pdf

Re: Mitochondria

http://gakkaiguy.gaia.com — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 04:22:09 GMT

Thanks for the references Gen.

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:13:00 GMT

jabuddha, my jabuddy:

There are few books on the spirituality of mitochondria, and not many more on the chemical aspects of them. Most of what I've seen are upper-year biology texts that are WAY over my head. I've been hoping to find someone here at Zaadz who has given more thought to the matter, since I've always been uncomfortable believing that I'm the first to notice something like a physical source for this being of energy, this body of light, that walks every step with us.

The quest continues!

And if I could stop Zaadzing for a few days to get my books out of boxes, I'd have better resources to refer you to. I'm not sure where I've gleaned the bits and pieces from, but I'm fairly certain William Loomis' book Four Billion Years provided me with most of the chemical understanding and Richard Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale brought out some of the biology.

Re: Mitochondria

http://gakkaiguy.gaia.com — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:29:44 GMT

My dear Mr. etc... I would say there's a whole lot I can learn about our comrades the mitochondria. I will have to defer commenting further because what you have revealed is knowledge I cannot yet verify or even understand. Thank you for opening this alien window for my eyes.

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 19:13:11 GMT

I was involved in a pod regarding something called 'DNA Activation' but I seem to have been mysteriously dropped from the vine. Personally, I think the folks in that pod are worried about someone who actually knows a little about the subject asking awkward questions, since they seem to have no clue about what DNA is actually all about.

All I have to say about this is: "I've got to get these mother f*$king snakeoil salesmen off this mother f*$king plane of existence."

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Sat, 01 Jul 2006 15:26:16 GMT

In the PToE vine, I bring up ATP, adenosine triphosphate. Now, I've asked the Zaadz powers-that-mean-to-be for subscripts, but for now you'll have to imagine the numbers small and low. ATP has a chemical formula of C10 H16 N5 O13 P3. The adenosine part indicates the purine base adenine in DNA, and is a cluster of carbon rings interspersed with nitrogen. The triphosphate showes there are three phosphorus molecules, and these are attached to oxygens.

I also have the wikipedia site open while I type this. According to that, we use and recharge a kilogram (2.2 lbs) of ATP every hour, each molecule being used 2000-3000 times a day. Busy, busy bodies!

Re: Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:09:47 GMT

We have two bodies. There is the DNA we got from our parents in every cell, and there is the mitochondrial DNA in every cell. There are also the few hundred other species living on us, like E. coli in our intestines and the eyebrow-mites that eat the dead flakes of us. These occupy the spaces between the cells. Every cell has mitochondria, so there is a second body occupying the same space at the same time as our body (body being composed of one type of DNA).

Eventually, this idea will prove useful, when I get to my ideas regarding the effect of resonance between two bodies, which may or may not be the two bodies described there. There is much more background information I have to lay straight in my head before I get there, because otherwise I'll blow it.

Mitochondria

http://etceterist.gaia.com — Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:25:29 GMT

My greatest gripe with people who discuss the many facets of life-energy is the seemingly complete and utter lack of knowledge about mitochondria. I'm not talking just the spiritual folks and chakratics; there is little mention in any of the quadrants. Not even our pal Ken Wilbur seems to devote much to the lowly mitochondrion (the singular), but I've only checked the index of the 3 books I own (having only recently discovered and subsequently been repeatedly astonished by him).

Why are mitochondria so important? The most common metaphor in the biology texts is that of the "cellular power house". Every cell in every animal (and many plants) has at least one mitochondrion, and some (like the muscle cells) have thousands. Mitochondria (to brutally simplify things) transform sugar into ATP (adenosine triphosphate). The third phosphate on this molecule isn't on very tightly, and if it breaks off, energy gets released. This is the energy that our cells use to do whatever it is the cell needs to do, whether it be release a neurotransmitter, contract or reproduce. Without mitochondria, our physical bodies would be dust.

Another aspect of mitochondria which is of vital import is this: it has its own DNA. It is not us. We use the mitochondria in our mothers' ova (sorry dads, your mitochondria is a genetic dead end) and it reproduces alongside our own DNA, utilizing many of our mechanisms, much like a virus does (but it doesn't inhibit our own, so it's not viral).

No one is sure how our cells began this deeply symbiotic relationship. Either the mitochondria was consumed by a larger single-celled organism and it proved difficult to digest or it was a parasite that was co-opted because it excreted a useful product. Either way, two distinct lifeforms stopped competing and began cooperating for the betterment of both. If there is a better definition of soul, I don't know it.

The fact that this relationship allowed for multi-cellular organisms like me and my cactus and the spider that weaves dew-laden webs for the morning sun to glisten in is a blessed side effect