What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

I've heard various descriptions of forgiveness ie to forgive a person means not to remember something against that person… you cannot forget what has happened but you can remember without bitterness or seeking retribution.

One area that there seems to be a stumbling block is what should trigger the act or decision to forgive.

Should a person admit they are wrong, and repent to be forgiven, or should we be gracious and forgive that person unconditionally, realising they do not have the same insight into reality that we profess to have.

I liken this to someone walking out from between parked cars, in front of my car, causing me to brake suddenly.  First instinct is to berate the person for suicidal stupidity.  Then I see the white cane in their hand…  It is easy to forgive a physically blind person in this circumstance, they don't even have to ask.

Yet if someone hurts us in other ways, being ignorant of the consequences of their action or the eternal principles of karma, what you sow is what you reap, we demand they “repent”, to earn our forgiveness?

One is proactive, the other is reactive. My agenda is that for peace to become a reality in this world I think it's going to take a collective act of proactive forgiveness. 

I am keen to know what others in this community think…

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Forgiveness is a tricky business.  The cliche is to “forgive and forget,” but I don't believe this is a real means to move on.

Forgiveness implies the act of acknowledging something was wrongfully done to you, and then releasing the emotion it caused.  To me, forgiveness is allowing yourself to move on.  Therefore, forgiveness is not an act of kindness, but rather an act of strengthening yourself, be it painful or not.

To forgive is not the same as to forget.  I may not retain the anger I felt at whatever the act may have been, but that is not to say I have forgotten what was done.

Forgiveness is not synonymous with a fresh start.  If one has been wronged severely by another, just because they were forgiven does not mean that the relationship will ever be the same, nor does it mean that the wrong-doer will be viewed as they were before the incident occured.

The difference, then, between forgiving and not forgiving is the burden the wronged feels.  Forgiving is releasing the emotions held up.  Allowing them to drop, and not using them as a means of vengeance, harm, or otherwise.  Saying “I forgive you” is, to me, basically saying, “I am no longer hurt specifically by what you did”, but it is not the same as saying, “I was not hurt.”

Because forgiveness is not an act of generosity, I don't believe it can be earned.  That is to say, no amount of repentence on the part of the perpetrator of harm will ensure the forgiveness of the harmed.  Forgiveness is a means of repairing one's own soul and saying, “I was hurt, but I have healed myself.”

Not sure I explained this well,
Centri

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

FORGIVENESS, for me, is an act of lessening the burden of my past.

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Don't you just love this. There are hundreds of link in the quote section of Gaia..

I myself think along these lines.

Of perfidious friends: 'We read that we ought to forgive our enemies; but we do not read that we ought to forgive our friends.'

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

It can be an extremely difficult thing to do at times, but it can be done if you try hard enough and time quite often helps. It's harder to forgive when you are still suffering or healing from being hurt. The power to let go and forgive can sneak up on you when you least expect it.

My oldest daughter was molested at the age of three and I thought I'd never be able to forgive the guy. I hated him so bad that I had dreams of beating his head on a concrete floor in his garage at night. I thought forgiveness would never be possible.

After two and a half years of fighting through two different courts, he got a two year prison sentence without parole and a 3 1/2 years stay in a half way house before being released into the community. There is also a restraining order until she turns 18.

It was after he was released back into the community I had this sunnden change in heart somehow. It was 7 years later and I finally found out I was capable of forgiving him. I have not run into him since the day he was sentenced and have not seeked him out to tell him I forgave him, but I truly feel sorry for him and hope he learned something positive out of all that he went through because of it. it's sad to think someone can be so messed up to even be caple of doing what he did to begin with. If he didn't learn from it, he may never know true happiness. It's sad to think that anyone could be that lost. I no longer hate him and just fell sorry for him. It was a great relief when I one day suddenly realized I had forgiven him. life is so much better when you are not full of hate and anger.

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Thanks for sharing your story treniff.  It's so powerful to forgive. And I've also had the experience of feeling such a lifting when I forgave those who hurt me.

I just saw Forgiving Dr Mengele - about a holocaust survivor who's life changes after forgiving. I also read Left to Tell - about a woman who survived the Rwandan holocaust and forgave those who killed her entire family.  In both cases, those living around these powerful women couldn't understand - and were even angered and baffled that they could forgive the monsters who had killed their families.  I can see that when people open their heart, like you did, something larger than us helps us to love people and have compassion. In our world, that is so vitally important. 

Blessings to you,

Sr Andrea

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Treniff there should be a special place in heaven reserved for people like you.

I have seen and been touched by the power of forgiveness but the release you experienced must have been amazing.

Words cannot adequately convey the admiration I have for you at this moment.  Releasing forgiveness also releases your child from any bondage to the past that may have overshadowed her life.

You are an extraordinary inspiration and a wonderful mother.

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Treniff….I so understand.  The same thing happened with my oldest daughter.  Her birth father started abusing her when we split.  She was 6 months old when I ran for my life.  We had joint, he lived in Texas, I lived in California.  He hid the abuse well until I made a surprise visit when she was three….it was awful beyond words….I high tailed it back to CA with her and filed charges.  Due to a faulty court system, he received nothing more than a slap on the wrist.  I was able to get sole legal and physical custody of her, but, I lived in fear and revenge mode for years!!!!  He found us when she was eight and tried to take her from me, had documents and other papers that said he had custody…basically tried to con the courts in the county where I live…..I wasn't afraid, I got a lawyer, I stood up to him in court and the judge told him if he ever stepped back in to his county he would throw him under the jail!  I realized after that I no longer hated him, I felt sorry for him….I ultimately forgave him for my spiritual well being, not his.  I did not want my daughter to be afraid and hide….by forgiving him and moving forward, she could see that strength and not learn to have the fear that I had.  She is nineteen now and having a babe of her own in December…I guess he found her on Facebook and wants her to call him.  She called me and asked what to do….I told her to listen to her heart and make up her own mind…whatever she decided to do, do it fearlessly…I was amazed that my previous baggage was left out.  I really did forgive and let go.  I can let my sweet girl decide what she wants to do without adding any of my “stuff” to the mix….that's a gift!

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Andrea:
        Your welcome. I heard of that book, “Left to Tell” and just recently found it at a local thrift shop where I shop frequently for books. I haven't had a chance to start it yet, but can't wait to read it. It sounds like a great book.

Andrew:
         Thank you, you are so sweet. I never thought of it that way, releasing the bondage of the past for my daughter. You're right. She does remember it though not in detail. Thankfully she was never majorly traumatized by it. It was like a touching game to her when she was at a curious age with no physical pain. It was more painful to her breaking up the family. It was like experiencing death of a loved one, suddenly never being allowed to see someone you were close to ever again. We were lucky it wasn't anything worse. She was so verbal and out going, able to tell me in detail what was going on and not afraid to talk about it. Many people ask why me? Why my child? I used to ask myself that, but after forgiving him, I was suddenlt able to see why and that was quite an eye opener for me. Everything happens for a reason. It saved her younger sister from having to go through the same thing at a later age and she was so shy, I don't think she ever would have told. It opened a lot of eyes in the system when they tried to push us through like any other case. It wasn't like any other case and she showed them not to judge people and just push you through like another number. Many people learned from the expereince, I just hope he learned from it, too.

Missy,
       Wow, that's a question I never thought of. Well, in my case it was my step-Dad because my Mom remarried when my daughter was two weeks old. My Mom divorced him and I used to think that he might try to look my Mom up after he was released, but she remarried after a few years and then died of cancer just before he was released from from the half way house. Since my Mom is now gone, I don't think he'll ever be back.
       Her new husband was the best nurse she ever could have had. She had been in remission for so long before they got married, she didn't really expect her cancer to come back. She found out it was back shortly after getting married. He took such good care of her and she never would have met him in the first place if my daughter hadn't been molested. He bought her the dream house she always wanted and she was able to stay in her dream home the rest of her life,           
        Now, we help take care of him, since he was so wonderful to us and my Mom. Sadly, his own sons really don't seem to care about him much. He found out he had cancer right after my Mom passed away and just went into remission about two months ago for the first time in 4 years.  Just the way things were meant to work out for everyone. Reminds me of my favorite short story: God's Cake.  Makes you wonder at times, what other surprises are waiting on the long road ahead and where will it all lead to.

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

For me, forgiveness is a gift to myself as much as it is to the other person. It's consciously letting go of thoughts and emotions that are tying up energy in me that could be better spent on caring and comfort and positive solutions. So if by 'proactive' you mean to say that there's some level of consciousness and awareness and choice involved in the forgiving, then yes, I entirely agree with your agenda. It also, though, means that I need to forgive those who don't want to forgive. ;)

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SIona,
That's a great way of putting it - letting go of energy that is tied up in someone else. It is empowering to do that - and feel free.  And I think it really makes us more responsible - we're not living a whole life with this sob story about how someone did something to us and we never could recover. We  become responsible for how we feel.

In peace,
Sister Andrea

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

I love your answer, so true!

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You've hit the nail on the head Siona.

I don't know how I would have handled my child being interfered with, I think I would be hell bent on revenge, at least as an initial reaction.

I cannot comprehend the courage it must have taken for Treniff and Missy to forgive the assailants.  They both deserve medals.

Forgiving someone that asks for it in repentance is far easier than someone continuing to mock an abuse whatever authority they may have, but I think we are going to have to do so if we have any hope of changing the world scene.

Treniff and Missy are outstanding examples of what the human heart is capable of if we are willing.

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Andrew,
you say Siona, “hit the nail on the head”, may the nail forgive her for her thoughtlessness to its feelings.
Jokes aside, this is one of the most powerful & inspiring threads I've seen on Gaia, and please forgive me anyone who has instigated a more powerful & inspiring thread, please send me info on any powerful & inspiring threads you may know-I know they abound, but I would like your favourite, please and your reasons for finding it particularly powerful and/or inspiring,
blessings to all children who've been abused & to their abusers, may they all find peace.
Me (MD)

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

I'm not sure about this line of thinking…

…while it sounds wonderful for the individuals involved to “free” themselves from the pain and wounding that another being inflicted upon them or someone close to them, this issue of “freeing” oneself also allows the majority of people all over the world to justify a passive stance with respect to the societal and global Wrongs that are being perpetrated and perpetuated generation after generation upon our Planet…

With this collective lens on, I want to posit that FORGIVENESS must be Active State of Being.

Meaning that, as long as one is ALIVE, one exists in the act FOR-Giveness… You exist in order to have opportunities to Give of Your-SELF…

You have an entire lifetime available to you to Give of your time, Give of your heart…

When you Give your attention to another being, you can - and Do - nourish and nurture another consciousness to do the same… What better Life Purpose can there Be?

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Nishtha,
I totally hear you.  We can't be passive.  There are so many injustices that truly hurt people in the world today. I am “pro” forgiveness but I also thing we need to act up when there is a wrongdoing.  It reminds me of that saying - “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”  We do have to be active. And I totally agree that we are here to serve, to give of ourserlves. 

Am I getting what you said?

Blessings,

Sr Andrea

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

I've been offline for awhile so I haven't been keeping up with the conversation for a few days… Sister Andrea, you have understood me completely. :-)

I will now get myself up to speed with the rest of the discussion…

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Nishtha, I understand your concern, but what I'm suggesting has nothing to do with people sitting on their hands but rather the approach they take.

If those responsible for the ills of the world are approached by people with justice and revenge on their hearts, that immediately puts up barriers.  If they are approached from a neutral point of view, the chances of winning them over are substantially better.

My understanding is that that is why hostage negotiators are trained not to antagonise the person holding the hostages.  Extrapolate that to the world situation and you understand where I'm coming from.

The world is effectively being held hostage by those wanting to increase there power base and wallet.

If someone has a better non violent way around this I'd sure like to hear it.

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Recently I watched a documentary called 'Doing Time - Doing Vipassana'.  The film documented the lives of individuals in a notorious Indian prison as they got themselves into a routine of Vipassana meditation, thanks to the efforts of a vastly pro-active prison chief.  CUT a long story short, there is a scene where a murder, jailed for life with the possibility of execution for the murder of a married man in father, writes to the family of his victim a sincere letter of apology, detailing how he has changed thanks to meditation and so forth.  The widow of the murdered man on an auspicious day is seen to enter the prison grounds and embrace the man whom killed her husband.  She ties a friendship band around his wrist and places a sweet in his mouth.

That is forgiveness. 

What forgiveness means to me is just that:  great, boundless impartiality. 

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Andrew…I have been pondering this thread since I posted…what about the forgiveness of self?  I am having issues with that lately.  I thought I was past that, but, here it is again.  I was so lost for so long…did terrible things.  My brain keeps taking me backwards instead of forward.  I'm spinning in a whirlpool of emotion and doubt.  How does one truly forgive themselves and forget?  I am very far removed from the person that I was, but, she keeps coming back and whispering in my ear…causing me to have doubt and fear.  I can almost magically forgive others and really leave them in God's ultimate care…..this is soooo difficult and causing me pain and sleepless nights.

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Missy I did some pretty bad things in the past also.  Some of those things I had the opportunity to ask forgiveness of people involved and in doing so, whether l was forgiven or not, I accepted the fact that as I had done my best, I was able to forgive myself.

I can only offer you what I have come to believe is truth, keeping in mind you are going to have to mull over or meditate on this until you come to realise from the depths of your own being that you know that you know by drawing from your own well the truth.   Without that you are just paying lipservice to yourself.

Since the dawn of time religion has used the concept of us being separated from our creator, whatever you conceive that to be, on the basis that we aren't acceptable, because we've been “bad”, or sinful from birth, or from the time of self awareness,  different systems have different yardsticks but the principle is the same.

It is a lie.

It is impossible to be separated from the substance of your own being.  Think about this.  At some point there was only a single entity.
How to I know? For every effect there must be a cause.  But that had to start 'somewhere'.  There had to be a beginning, otherwise time would be non existant.  To measure something in three dimensions you have to have a starting point and a finishing point.  Time is the same.

So what did this original cause have to use to create all that is?  Only the substance of itself.  There is nothing else.  So, what are you made from… the substance of that original cause.  So how could it be possible to be separated from that cause?  Only in the mind.  In this whole creation the only thing that can be separate from the creator is the  mind, because that is the only place that decisions can be made.  It had to be so otherwise we would be automatons, robots

This whole scenario is an adventure of self discovery, the creator becoming aware of itself.  When you start to become aware of the truth of your being, you also become aware of why you have done things you've regretted.  Ignorance!  Ignorance of the truth of who you really are.

From this stems the awareness that everything you have need of is within you, love, joy , peace, forgiveness, acceptance, belonging, freedom!!!

Once you start to realise this you realise the foolishness of unforgiveness.  Everybody has done wrong, through ignorance.

When you realise this of yourself, you realise it of others,

It is so simple you need help to misunderstand it.

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–Just an aside to Andrew, not really part of the main conversation, so I'll whisper joyfully in your ear–
Andrew, that is AMAZING!! I bow to the clarity with which you've described how the Universe began-begins-is…which is what I'm reading before I'll post in a day or two, at the Living metaphysics pod [from the Awakening to Reality book of the Upanishads]

–OK, bowing out again;sorry for the interruption in this interesting discussion, folks!

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Missy, I'm interjecting a lot; and I know you asked Andrew, but if I may:

“How does one truly forgive themselves and forget?  I am very far removed from the person that I was, but, she keeps coming back and whispering in my ear…causing me to have doubt and fear. ”

By looking with great compassion at the one who does not feel acknowledged for what she did: show you that you can be as great as anyone and as small as anyone. She helps you to be humble, to be gentle with others, to be forgiving, to feel.

And by doing so, she opens you up to all that you are.

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Stepping in here to say, that's it Andrew,

Everybody has done wrong, through ignorance. When you realise this for yourself, you realise it of others…

Blessed are those who do, at some point, attain Self-Realization.

pj

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The Master Teacher of my spiritual community, Father Peter Bowes, gave a very simple definition to me today. He was talking about living a life of forgiveness. For me, forgiveness has had to do with big things, forgiving your parents for ways they wounded you in your childhood, forgiving past partners, friends, family. I asked him how we can forgive all the time in little ways. He said, “For-Give, Give Before your asked to, just as God constantly does. Pray for others constantly.”

Tonight after going out to see a movie with the community (W.) we came back and did the rosary dedicating each hail mary to someone we knew. I could feel my heart expand and my mind clear afterwards. I could really feel the presence of the divine Mother within the Chapel and within me.

Blessings,
Joshua

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Relief.

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Meenakshi & Andrew…

Thank you for your words…..I have had the darkest two weeks…I can not begin to thank you enough for speaking to me through your thoughtful words…so funny how God works…when I found Gaia, I was in such a good place, and then, without warning, the bottom fell out of the emotional “pot”…..I have had such wonderful support from people who took me by the arm…without really knowing me.  Forgiveness of self is one of my biggest problems….I can forgive others almost to a fault, but me, well…..You both have helped so much…..I love what you said Meenakshi, this makes soooo much sense….thank you, thank you, thank you :-)

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simply put to me means moving on… forgiveness to me is a lot easier than forgetting; but i've learnt over the years usually given time the hurt that is caused usually lessen so what usually is left in memory is purely the knowledge of the incident.

I believe being human its impossible to erase the knowledge of an incident; any incident as a matter of fact.

However what is possible is to let go feelings attached to the incident i.e. anger, frustration, etc. ensuring the soul is not weighed down by all those negative feelings towards others..

I do not think simply forgiving a person is an act of graciousness. Graciousness in forgiving to me is even when i am hurt i took the trouble to explain to the other person the full impact of his/her action on me therefore he/she do not make a similar mistake again and hurt another person in future…   perhaps not an easy task but certainly doable..

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Hi Principessa,

You've said you don't think simply forgiving a person is an act of graciousness. 

I think it would depend on whether you are on the giving or the receiving end.

An eccentric Aussie

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Well, I do believe that sometimes forgiveness can be given without saying anything. But I believe that should happen when you know the person or feel like you can understand them a bit. Such as, I can forgive my boyfriend or mother if she says something in the heat of anger. However, if someone else said that same thing I would want an apology for it.

There are other times in which I can forgive and forget. If someone accidentally bumps into me in a crowded elevator then I'm not going to be upset about it. It was just a small accident. I think that apologizes and forgiveness is only really needed when it's something big, or it's attentional or it's happened multiple times from the same person/persons.

I think that many of the people here are really nice. I'm amazed by how many of you were able to forgive someone for something I would find unforgiveable. After my parent's divorced my father started to become anger, and physically abusive. I had forgiven him the first couple of times, but once the abuse started getting worse and I had bruises and scar I decided it was enough. I refused to allow him to laugh at me for being afraid of him while he gloated about making me bruise. I stopped forgiving him, and soon I refused to even go in the same room as he did.

That was six years ago I believe, and I haven't seen him since.

-Jenn

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Welcome to Gaia.com Jennifer

You've alluded to something that hasn't been mentioned, I don't think, and that is that forgiveness is personal.

No one can force you to forgive, and only you know whether you have.

The other side of the coin is that if you hold unforgiveness in your heart, however justified, you are the one that suffers.  The person to whom the unforgiveness is directed may be unaware, and certainly doesn't know the angst you might be going through.

An eccentric Aussie

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

I agree with Andrew….You can only forgive when and if you are ready Jennifer. I know for me, letting my transgressor take residence in my head, only gave him power. i wrote about my ex a few posts up this thread…as long as I held the anger toward him, for what he did to me, and my daughter, I gave him resolute power over me….he could care less about how I felt….I was only hurting myself, and, I began to do some pretty nasty stuff to myself over it eventually….Once I really forgave him and let go of the hurt and anger, I finally began to heal….so did my daughter.  That's just my experience…I can not let anyone have that perpetual, angry, resenting power over me….I refuse to let him take residence in my head….he's God's now.  It has been 16 years, and now, out of no where, the state of Texas called me in Tennessee to come testify at a trial to put him away for a long time….he has been charged with hurting another baby girl…I think I can look at this more realistically and pursue the proper avenue to take regarding this only because I forgave the SOB a long time ago…If I do go and testify, it will not be for revenge…I don't know, I just think that God's vengeance is most likely better than anything I can dish out…In the meantime, I do not lose sleep over this man, he does not torment me….it is a blessing.

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Missy, I bow to the wisdom in your words.

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Andrew, and Missy, I know that you're both right. I have had a lot of people - friends, family, my mom, etc. tell me that. I dunno, for me I just find it easier not to deal with him. The only time I actually become emotional, or think about it really, is when I'm either near him (which I never am), or when I talk about him to others. And even now I don't think I'm all that affected by it.

Yes, he did hurt me - physically and emotionally, and I'm not about to forgive him or give him anymore chances to make things “right”. He's had more then enough chances to do that, and he abused all of the chances he got. However, I'm also not about to let him rule my life. I know that he isn't good enough for me to allow him to do that. So honestly, I never really think about him except for times like right now.
He knows that I want nothing to do with him, I had made that perfectly clear and, in turn, he made it clear that he was ashamed to have been related to me. So yes, there are hard feelings but I'm not about to let him make me miserable just because he is. We went our seperate ways, and we both dislike one another but I don't think either of us think about the other all that often.

Thank you for your wise words
-Jenn

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Dear Jenn,

People giving you this advise, your mother, your family, aren't giving it for your father's benefit, but for your's.

It depends on whether you choose to be proactive or reactive.

Right now you are reacting to your fathers treatment, he is still influencing your life, exercising control over this aspect of your life, and he will continue to do so so that you will become bitter and twisted eventually in a way that stops you from being rational in an emotional situation.

Yes I'm being confronting Jenn because you need to realise the consequences of your decision.

If you decide to be proactive, and forgive your father, you release yourself from his bondage.

From what you've said, your father must have been raised in an abusive house, and never forgiven his persecutors, and so the curse travels from generation to generation.

You can break that 'curse' Jenn.

The decision is yours.

An eccentric Aussie

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Jenn, forgiveness, doesn't mean you have to seek him out or try to be a friend to him. That would be putting yourself back into a bad situation since most times people like that are just repeat offenders, but like Andrew said, it would release you from his control once and for all. He is still in control of the situation when you can't forgive. It takes time and sometimes forgiveness can just sneak up on you when you least expect it, but it can happen  and the release of the anger and hate that he is controlling in you feels wonderful when it finally happens. Right now he can have the satisfaction that he is still influencing you in this way. Only you have the power to take that satisfaction away from him and only when you are ready will it happen. I hope you find that peaceful feeling forgiveness brings soon.

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Someone once told me it was your willingness to remove your hands from the other persons neck.

I like that.

Re: What does FORGIVENESS mean to you?

Freedom, relief, self truth in love. Shedding the old to welcome the “true”.:)
No more suffering. Joy, laughter, connection!!!!! YAY.

But mostly it is an internal love that opens like a flower to warmth of the sun.