How do you measure what can't be counted?

How do you place a value on that which can't be counted? How do you measure compassion or love? How do you quantify gratitude?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Great Question. I'll start with this:

Very carefully–with a metaphysics calculator and lots of heart.  Performance Management Systems (PMS) always break down when presented with this question.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

First I must acknowledge the gift. Some of my greatest gifts came from some real hard introspection because of selfish choices that resulted in pain. It took a while to have gratitude.

I try not to measure compassion and love.  I want to be able to feel it. I think it feels like opening a present. We who come here, I think, in some way know that in demonstrating daily compassion and gratitude we become closer to “All That Is”. Peace

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

The things that can't be counted have to be measured by the juicy, messy handful. And then you have to lick your fingers.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

How do you measure the potential of a bricklayer. You can count how many bricks are in the wall, which is the outcome of his skill and intention to lay bricks. How can you count how many bricks he will ever lay in his life. Or how little.

Numbers however, can always be limited or “normalised” to a maximum. But what if we hire a thousand bricklayers. How do we count the potential of them all together. And we'll keep on going as we will make a deal with them to hire new ones when the old ones retire. We will keep count of the number of bricks they put into the walls. We measure the outcome. But how to measure their potential. It's called Infinity.

Compassion, love, gratitude and creativity are sources, instead of outcomes. The sources are infinitly big. The outcomes can only be felt and experienced. It's a way of measuring a feeling. However. a person's gratitude for instance, is measurable by being in his or her close proximity. It's great to be there when someone is happy or gratefull for something they just got. A phonecall, a message or a person that just walked into their lives. I can measure that! And guess what? The meter is always off the scale. Because then we measure infinity. We can have a glimps at the source of the feelings of the other one.

Greetz,
Nino.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

This is a unique problem, with a variety of solutions.  There's a song that tells us the way to measure a year is in love, yet no way to measure love is ever given, thus we must embark upon a quest to find not only how to measure time, but also love.

The first measurement system for the immeasurable is through the fairly simple method of vague guesstimation. For example, a child may run up with his arms spread wide and say, “I love you this much!” A friend or family member might say, “Love you lots!” We hear comparisons to try and establish the great amounts of feeling, like “I miss you more than the sun misses the flower in the winter,” or, “I love you more than time itself.” What we must realize is that measurments are unnecessary.

How can one quantify love? It is impossible, and even if you could, why would you? To line up the people you love in order of most to least? What we must come to terms with is that measurements are not natural of the heart, they are a trick of the mind, and unnecessary in feeling. Love someone. Show compassion. Have genuine gratitude. These are all important things, and counting amounts is just a frivolous waste of time.

The best way to quantify the immeasurable is simple, though; measure by what's missing. The idea behind this is not to feel empty, it's quite the opposite; the objective at hand is to realize a short coming and correct it. “I love you, but is it with all of my heart?” If the answer is no, find out why. “Have I been compassionate enough to others?” If the answer is anything but “absolutely, there's no way I haven't,” then change yourself until the answer is unquestionable. “Did I tell them how much they mean to me?” Do it again. “Am I thankful enough?” Show your gratitude by living, return kindness always, favors whenever possible, and hatefulness never. Quantify the uncountable by filling your heart to its fullest, and knowing that there is no emptiness which needs to be measured.

May the fullest of your past be the most empty of the future,
Centri

[The image is from: http://soulfit.kaala.com/tag/measuring-growth-soul-tests/ ]

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Anything can be counted. It depends on the criteria that you use to measure the thing that you want to count. When talking about human emotion or some abstract concept such as compassion, love or gratitude then I would ask why is it that you feel the need to quantify it? Some things are futile to measure as each person's experience is unique to that individual and measuring this experience detracts from it. You can ask, “was I compassionate enough?” But only you know the answer to that based on your perception. If someone tells you “you were not compassionate enough,” then they are judging you based on some standard of theirs that you may not agree with or even be aware of.

The bottom line-Give your choices some thought before acting, do what you feel is right, and if you or someone you know feels you screwed up-acknowledge their perception, then learn from the experience. No one is perfect, but be aware of and accept your limitations, vow to improve yourself at every opportunity and hopefully, you will overcome your desire to measure everything.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

As of today there is no measurement because there is no standard way of describing love, compassion, or gratitude. Different people view it differently in a sense.
Some people measure according to need. Like if there was only 1 bottle of water left in the world it would become super important otherwise there are oceans full out there right now.

Other people measure according to passion. The person who basically says “I love you everyday” whether or not they mean it.

Even others measure according to sincerity of the act of love or compassion or gratitude.

As for me I cannot measure it because I don't have the tools to calculate such an enormous amount in all of existence and nonexistence. =)

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

You have four questions here. Since you started with “How do you measure what can't be counted?” I'd answer with feelings. They can't be quantified except generally into good and bad, really good and really bad, exceptionally good and exceptionally bad, and on and on.

The same goes for value. Value is a bit different as it runs positive and negative. So something of great value is extremely positive and the same goes for something of a negative value. But I feel bad about things that effect me with negative value, so once again you measure it with feelings.

How do you measure compassion and love. This really comes down to love since compassion is an expression of love. It also matters if you are giving love or receiving love. Receiving love feels good to great, but giving it is almost always exceptional wonderful feeling - really the best concious feeling you can have.

The last question is “How do you quantify gratitude?” I can't imagine a valid instance where gratitude needs a number assigned to it. Gratitude is also an expression of love. So whether its a little or a lot, its all good.

And it is all good.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Gödel's first incompleteness theorem states that:

    Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.

This theorem shows that any formal system that includes enough of the theory of the natural numbers is incomplete: there are statements in its language that it can neither prove nor refute. Thus no formal system (satisfying the hypotheses of the theorem) that aims to characterize the natural numbers can actually do so, as there will be true number-theoretical statements which that system cannot prove. This fact has severe consequences for the program of logicism proposed by Gottlob Frege and Bertrand Russell, which aimed to define the natural numbers in terms of logic (Hellman 1981, p.451–468).

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

I would answer with the question “who's counting?” Is it the counting that creates value?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

As I started to think about this question the following other questions came to mind… What is compassion without love and what is love… so, therefore what value would need to be place on that which can not be counted…so again, forewith, the gratitude would not need to be quantified?   Depends on the perspective of the value that is measured in something that could never be counted and how one would one measure the compassion or love that brought the question forth, which led to the quantifying of the gratitude for the given action(s)?  Each truth in itself reflects the counted, measured and quantified spirit of the given source which enlightens the warmth, light and sense of being, so would there be need for the actions/non actions in retrospect… could it be an individual directive to complete an on going energy in the action?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

The closest I have found is heartmath, a biofeedback device that measures what the call the coherence of the persons heartbeat calculating its rate of change.  They have done some very interesting studies showing that that electromagnetic field that is emitted from one persons heart will affect the field of every else in the area.  It's not measuring love or compassion, exactly, but its an interesting physical clue to a previously entirely unquantifiable dimension.  

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

The river has no name

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

It seems to me that love, compassion and gratitude is always expanding simular to the universe.   If so, how do you measure Infinite Being?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Why?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Quantum physics deals with things that can't be counted as a fact of life.  There are a lot of good posts here, with a great breadth of knowledge.  But things can be perceived of in “more or less”.  How much Love?  What are the effects of it?  How many more weddings this month?  Compared to a year ago?  How much more Love?  Twice as many weddings?  Three times as many?  Now you know the difference between two uncountable quantities. Now, is the difference changing?  Bigger, or smaller?  Rate of change = what?   Infinity cannot be counted - it is like an original on top of the glass on the copying machine.  You can make as many copies as you want - if you have enough paper and ink - but none of them are the original, and the original has not changed - it's still on top of the glass.  Does this make it any less real?   No - just intangible, because it's information in the form of a pattern, that can be used to transfer that information to different systems.  That's straight out of Bucky Fuller's Synergetics.  The pattern doesn't even need to occupy any space - it can be folded up, but still retain its sequence - but that's another story.  Calculus and geometry can describe rates of change in systems - you can tell whether the light is getting brighter or dimmer, closer or farther, more or less, relatively speaking.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

At age 83, I have trouble sometimes remembering names, my telephone number, my Social Security Number, but automatic is, “Now is the time to come to the aid of your country.” This was the first sentence I learned to type in my high school typing class in 1942. America was engaged in World War II. In a year I would be called to serve my country. I was in Germany when Nazi Germany capitulated. I was on the high seas heading for the invasion of Japan when the United States dropped two atom bombs on Japan and ended World War II.

If you love America, says this octogenarian, we are now in a crises fully as grave as in World War II. “Uncle Sam wants you.” If the world’s “authorities” don’t succeed in wiping out all human life in an atomic holocaust, America’s children are on their way to tax slavery.

It’s time to come to the aid of your country.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Asking how to measure what can’t be counted is like asking what is truly right and what is truly wrong. The fact is that there are many answers to this puzzle but all are different so in face of that there is no real answer…There is an entire circle answer to my reply so I will shorten it and simply say that you measure it by your experience.Or at least that’s my opinion.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

There is an entire circle answer to my reply so I will shorten it and simply say that you measure it by your experience.Or at least that’s my opinion.
 
Although we are taught it, one can’t dimensionally measure one’s worth. Our minds are not made of meat. Minds are not in a place. The state of one’s mind can be limited or expansive.

Gaia offers this as a place where one might find a soul mate. How does one measure a soul mate? When I met my soul mate, it was like meeting an old friend I’d not seen for a long time. But before our meeting, came experience.

I didn’t find my soul mate until I was 55, after having experienced three failed marriages. It was a matter of my dimensional worth—how much money, how many things. My career was on the rocks. Wouldn’t you know that my marriage was over?

At mid-life, I cut my umbilical cord with my past. Terrified over what my fate would be, I simply got in my car and drove away, placed myself in totally new circumstances, where it did not matter what others thought.

I learned who I really was when it made utterly no difference to anyone who I was or what I was about. It’s a state of mind. Once I knew who I was, the time was ripe to find a soul mate. By magic, the right person for me appeared. Love isn’t based on how much I’m materially worth. My soul mate and I had a spiritual understanding. My life kept getting better and better. If life could be any better than mine, I don’t know how. My soul mate and I are living our dreams. I count my blessings every day. How do I measure my success? The proof is in the pudding.
 
 

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

IMO what can be counted is dealt with by science and mathematics. All the other things that can't be counted lie on the other qualitative end of the dialectic.

Measurement is just a word, a meaning tool that is used to clarify the meaning of a quantity. If I had to use a word for the 'measurement' of qualitative experience perhaps 'feel' is a good word. The scale of feeling is maybe intuition?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

IMO what can be counted is dealt with by science and mathematics. All the other things that can't be counted lie on the other qualitative end of the dialectic.



Ah yes! What can be counted on the other end of the dialectic? Pythagoras, the father of mathematics, held that numbers represented human characteristics—our qualities—figures things. Plutarch, a Greek priest and leading thinker of those times, argued that an idea, having no form by itself, but giving figure and form to shapeless matter, becomes the manifestation.

Coincidental with numbers representing human characteristics, numerologists, based on my name, give me the number 7 as my life lesson number. I’m here to use my mind. In my twilight years, I’ve become contemplative. I spend most of my time in a mind search for the truth.

Science, until recently, ignoring numbers, has concentrated on figures, and we, unfortunately, on things. We’ve put things ahead of an understanding of who we are. The pendulum is swinging. Quoting quantum physicist Evan Harris Walker, author of The Physics of Consciousness, “What we have constructed is the standard figure from the Pythagorean theorem. The sum of the areas of the two smaller squares on the right triangle equals the area of the larger square. Thus we have a simple graphical way of showing how many photons (in any time interval) will pass through a pair of Polaroid filters at any angle—and also how many will be stopped. The square of the hypotenuse is the number of photons coming in, and the other two squares on the right triangle represent how many photons pass through and how many are absorbed. This is actually what quantum theory tells us the photons do.”

“Now there is a subtle but curious aspect to the way these photons behave. If we think of the photon as having its own polarization angle, then we must recognize that when it reaches the filter, the filter does not simply block it if the two axes are different, but instead the photon makes a choice as to whether it will go through or not. Whenever the photon reaches a filter at an angle A, then it sort of calculates out of the square of the cosine of A, uses that to calculate the absorption probability, flips a coin or whatever photons do to make a random choice consistent with that probability, and then either proceeds through the filter or gets itself absorbed. But if the photon goes on to another filter, a filter set at exactly the same angle as before, it must act as if it remembered what it did at the last filter.”

Quantum physics, we learn here, is putting the question of the nature of space, time, and physical reality to the ultimate test. The makeup of the universe, we’re finding, is nothing at all like we’ve been taught to think of it. Walker: “I think one thing at least is certain: It is clear that consciousness can be broached scientifically. Consciousness exists. And for the first time, we have used the instruments of scientific investigation to fit its existence into the overall tapestry of reality. For the first time, we understand consciousness.”

With a scientific understanding of consciousness, qualitatively, how are we to think of ourselves. We have scientific proof now that it is mind over matter. In my opinion, it is just a question of time until we take back control of our lives.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Tharlam, A form of (purer) energy which cuts accross physical catagories? My wife and I recently attended a wedding. One of the minister's and Reception party speaker's themes was “love as a verb” (an action rather than as mere emotional reaction). But my thought was that, while that is a more mature definition of love, it is no means complete. Love does involve a “touching” feeling and a magnetic pull as though “falling”. To deny these aspects of love is to artificially break up its overall qualities as a phenomena. Instead, I see love in much the same way you see compassion (are they much different?) - as trans-sensory, cutting accross senses, as energy would be inclined to do. 
 Darrell

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

As the credit card commercial says - priceless. I don't even attempt to measure compassion or love, kindness, gratitude or the like. One never knows the full impact of the kindness they bestow on another - many lives have been saved by a stranger who just offered a kind word or helping hand, not knowing how desparate the other was. Strangers have had tremendous affects on my mood which then inspired me to be more positive & friendly to all others I met that day. A kind gesture can continue exponentially. Why try to even measure? Better to put that energy in spreading positive energy into the world.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Love is measured in qualitative terms. So much for being intellectually gifted, rich and famous, beautiful, the life of the party, all admirable qualities, we’re getting the wrong leads. Love, being also a quality, I think of as the degree of selflessness—thinking of others ahead of self.

Speaking for myself—with a record of three failed marriages—given the instinct of self-preservation, love, for me, has been a most difficult attribute to obtain, and by far the most rewarding. I found someone at age 55 to love and to be loved back.

So now I know, In dreams and love there are no impossibilities. Janos Arnay. I’m 83 now. If life can be any better I don’t know how.  I'm counting my blessings.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Somewhere above is the answer. whitefang hit it on the nail IMO.
Experience. There is time enough for compassion, love and the gratitude to express it. This website has always been a comfort to me when these and other questions manifest. Time Enough For Love.  and the one that brought me to it Gaia.
inlink2009 I do agree with most of what you say and would gladly let you have your original profile back if I had the magical poof button.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

“A human being is part of a whole, called by us the “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.” Albert Einstein



In the whole part of the universe Einstein saw, there was nothing uncertain. The atom was a neat little package with electrons spinning around a nucleus of protons and neutrons. Since Einstein, science has proved Werner Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle. Science has proved that light is not the ultimate speed limit. There is instantaneous communication. There is a dimension of infinite possibility in which we observe and that becomes our reality. You can look at an atom one time and see what it is, and the next time see something different. The universe is more than the some of its parts. Einstein claimed that quantum physics mathematics were incomplete. The fact is that Einstein’s mathematics were incomplete.

Einstein didn’t believe in a personal God. He believed in an ordered universe that could reach a single conception, unifying all. His hope was never realized because his conception was flawed. After Einstein, quantum physicists found that what science had thought was an independent and objective physical world was in fact contingent on the observer. It follows that we must have a personal God, that each of us has his or her own reality based on experience. Einstein’s relativity begins to lose its sharp identity. The independent existence of matter and the absoluteness of space is false dogma. We are more than matter. The observer emerges as co-equal in the foundry of creation, says quantum physicist Evan Harris Walker.

When I started looking within for my answers, my life started changing for the better. We are not cogs in a wheel. We have no idea of the power that lies within us. We’ve been dumbed down by an establishment bent on controlling us. When I set out on my own, I found the real me, and then, naturally, found the right mate. I learned what love is all about. Those of you who can’t find a place for God and love in your lives have a new way of looking at your world coming up.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Thanks FastDart!  The Gaia Community has finally let me reenter my profile at inlink2009.gaia.com. My old inlink.gaia.com quit working.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

How do you measure love?

This is truly a fascinating question, so let me take one step back to get a better overview.

I would like to look into what is the purpose of asking such a question. Most of us agree that any expression of love (compassion, gratitude, etc.) is an experience. I believe that the intensity of the experience is directly related to your presence, that is your ability to be in the experience, and thereby to be love (compassion, gratitude etc.). Now, because the essence of being is love, what you are actually asking yourself is “how close to the essence of my being am I?”. At the same time you say that you are not love, because if you were love the purpose of measuring your experience of love would be pointless. It would be like asking “where does the circle end?”.

The question “How do I measure love?” is therefore an expression of our uncertainty, which again is an expression of fear. Now, to me fear is the experience of not being love, but it is also our teacher and guide on our path to the essence of our beings. We are all expressions of love, experiencing love through our presence, and from a particular point of reference (this life). Still, this we do without being love, the question is therefore also one of longing, longing for the essence of our beings.

The question may, however, be played by fear, like a game of cards where we try to compare our face values to see who is winning. Our challenge is therefore to see this, to call the bluff, and not be misguided and led to think that life is about winning or losing, or comparing feelings.

The very idea of comparing feelings by some absolute scale is inherently impossible, because every moment is in itself its own frame of reference. So, if I tried to compare how I feel now to my recollection of how I felt before, I would be comparing cats and dogs. Who can say if a cat or a dog is more happy? Not to mention the fact that my ability to recall feelings is flawed, since for the most part I experience the present more strongly than my recollections of the past. And thank God for that, if not I would be forever trapped in past experiences flooding my senses. Unfortunately, we humans do tend to get stuck in our past experiences from time to time, re-experiencing them throughout our days, weeks and years, but that is a whole different matter, and one for a different topic.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Now because the essence of my being is love …how close to the essence of my being am I?


My question: What is your frame of reference? Job, in order to show Satin how much he loved God, gave up everything in life he held dear. Many of the Islamic faith give up their own lives to kill the enemies of their God. This is supposed to show the world their love of God. Holy wars have been fought ever since Abraham came up with his idea of God. Is God love or hate your enemy?

I don’t look externally for the essence of my being. I’m not controlled by an external idea of love. I don’t feel guilty for not loving a manmade god. In order to find love, I had to look within. I departed the established way, became the pioneer and found the real me, which allowed me to find a mate to love and be loved. A loving pair combines their qualities. They become diversified and the inspiration that positively influences others.

We’re beginning to wise-up. How close are we to the essence of our being? Coercive authorities are going to be turned into functionaries doing our bidding. We’re going to find, through love and intelligence, the power we have from within to change our world for the better. We can do anything we will. I would not claim it had it not been my own experience. I’m living my dream.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

By the seconds you forget while listening to the ripple of no-you as it passes through you.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

WHERE DOES MATTER
I wonder here on Planet Earth
this tiny speck of matter
as we go spinning through forever
who's what is holding us up?

Where is down from here?
East or West or through?
In or out, onward, forever?
Where's the behind we left before?

Where are we going anyway?
What way is going on?
Which direction is the what
we're going to or coming from?

Which way is God from where we are?
Back? Right? Left?  Or there?
How long before forever's over
and how far is it to here?

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

The measure of a feeling is best quantified in terms of meaning and valued by its relative significance to the Beholder.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

BY KNOWING-FEELING HOW MUCH JOY IT GAVE YOU-MUCH-NORMAL OR LITTLE-gfr.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

You think of the thing you are trying to measure, let's say it's love. You think of an instance when you feel less love, and an instance when you feel more love. If you can not think of an instance with more love, then you have experienced 100% love, or the full amount you can feel. If you can not think of a case with less love than you feel, then you feel no love in that moment. Just compare and contrast.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

On a scale that can't be seen.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Inaccurately at best … self-centeredly at worst … more likely as binaries, either I sense the presence of compassion, love, gratitude, grace, mercy, humility or whatever other Platonic value (or human condition of evolutionary leftovers which today's society identifies as 'sickness') or I don't.  This may not qualify as true measurement, but I am a weathered scale and can only register what gets past my jaded and tarnished perceptual filters.

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Lots of good answers & insight here - lots of wisdom also.
When we read the bible, we are brought face to face with the finite mind of man, and the infinite mind of God.  And we are told that God is Love.  So there is my simple answer. 

Re: How do you measure what can't be counted?

Why, you can count it. Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds - and fanatics. Don't you know every number has a soul? Everything is relative, we are all one, Source potential, Source manifestation. Gratitude is a tool for balancing the scales and if used for benefit is a fear-based module. How do you measure compassion or love? You measure them by your heart. You measure them by confirming them to be True with your Higher Self. If they are genuine, then they will continue. A wise man once said to me, “You can lie to everyone here, but you can't lie to yourself.”
Honesty, modesty, comprehension, harmlessness, compromise, constructive criticism are great ways to know that you are on the Right Path. :)

Blessings,

Calvin