Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

After reading an incredibly thought provoking thread yesterday, it has inspired me to ask the question, “Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Let's assume enlightenment creates happiness. If you aspire to become enlightened; to become happy, you are learning a valuable self-mastery tool right? You'd be able to create a life that you've always desired right?

What happens when you've created that life/lifestyle you want? What now? Obviously investing more time into self development would be a good way to go, thus being able to create an even better life/lifestyle.

But there would have to be a stage you'd get to that you'd start wanting to help others around and close to you in order to fulfill an even greater level of happiness. One of the most self fulfilling experiences ever is be to help others, am I right?

But If you don't at least start learning to become more enlightened, how could you ever create the life you want with out a great deal of unnecessary hardship? How could you help others around and close to you if you haven't developed the tools necessary to help yourself, and in turn, help others? 

Are you expecting someone to come along, and slap a dirty great big Zen Buddhist Monk brain into your head for you? That ain't gonna happen…however it would be nice.

It sounds a little selfish to me, to not want to seek spiritual enlightenment..

..What do YOU think?

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

….my searxh for Enlightenment is going on for the past Five Decades …!

….i ventured on the search when i was just 10 years & in school !…

…..i am 61 today and i find   no ' light at the end of the tunnel !…'

-jagadish

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

-()-thank you Siona, for bringing this group discussion up……it sheds much light to a gathering of open discussion.
Namaste

To be a devoted “enlightenment seeker,” does create/involve a death node that one is heart felt of respect when on this journey of a blessed achievement/acknowledgment.

Enlightenment, is one of the bravest ordeals/times of a face value within ones self to journey through.  It no longer seeks for excuses, but truly journey's with many shedding tears of a hidden past to now see the clarity of ones soul.

To help others on such a journey offers much, and gives thanks and forgiveness to those who keep shedding ones sorrow within themselves, as we in ones circle have offered/ordeal't with from ones past.

From a wall that looks more like bricks - when running away from ones own stupidity, [can indeed seem like this] can be a climb up and over, to pastures of greenery….sunlit in loves gratitude of all combined when opening up to ones self of discovery, and channels from ones embryo's birth…….and isn't this what we are here for to discover in the first place?

Bless ()

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Enlightenment is like picking fruit from a tree, it is far better than starving. It is the nectar of the gods. Passing it up would be foolish. We are surrounded by it, enveloped in it, swimming in it. Best to be aware of such wonder.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Actually, from what you just said meta-panik, it is the search for enlightenment that is selfish. “If you aspire to become enlightened; to become happy, you are learning a valuable self-mastery tool right? You'd be able to create a life that you've always desired right?” Is it not selfish to desire your own happiness, to want? You even say it's a self mastery tool! And then you went on to ask “one of the most self fulfilling experiences ever is be to help others, am I right?” Yes, you are right! When you seek to fulfill yourself you are, in essense being selfish.

But, selfishness is in no way a bad thing. We are all incredibly selfish beings, and as a consequence, we are virtuous. Take religion/morals for instance, I make my choice of what I believe in, putting my belief of what is good before that of others. If I weren't selfish, I would believe everything is good, and take no time to make that judgment myself. Think about what would happen if one didn't selfishly determine their own morals. If we believe everything is good, then we couldn't be against murder!

The fact is, one chooses whether to seek enlightenment or not based on their own self. It is in making choices that we are selfish, because with that choice is a reason why we chose it…that reason being whether it would benefit ourselves.

Peace and Joy,
Alexa

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I guess that is our fate as human beings eh? To be selfish. Oh how annoying…
I can't argue with your post at all.
 
Guess I'll scratch off selfishness on my Negative Traits of Human list and whack it on my Necessary Traits of Humans list.

You've single handedly made me re-think my concept of Selfishness! I thank you for it!

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I'm very happy to help :)

And, to further make sense of this, being happy to help another is still selfish because I make the judgement myself that that other is worth helping…do we ever help someone we don't want to help?

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

“But there would have to be a stage you'd get to that you'd start wanting to help others around and close to you in order to fulfill an even greater level of happiness. One of the most self fulfilling experiences ever is be to help others, am I right?”

No you are wrong. It is silly to assume that that kind of 'help' would actually help others. For various distinct reasons: 1. You help others to get happier yourself, so basicly your goal is to help yourself, that is bad. 2. You know that becomming enlightenment is something you did on your own, just like buddha. You can help others, but only if they ask for it themselves. Or helping them whilst you do not like to do it.

First help yourself, then see if someone wants to be helped.

It isn't selfish, its just choice.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I believe the quote “All paths lead to the same result” is attributed to the Bhagavad Gita.  While this was referrring particularly to methods of becoming one with Krishna, becoming Enlightened or gaining Quantum-consciousness or any number of other terms might well be employed to describe the phenomena which is truly outside of words to define (words place limits on infinite omnipresence).  The simple truth of this idea is that time itself is an illusion and that even if you think you are being selfish and/or moving away from or just simply ignoring the quest for enlightenment, you are part of the process of the One becoming Enlightened to Itself.  Fear not (of if you wish, go ahead and fear or be perplexed). What Is Is and we are all a part of It.  The individual can seek enlightenment, but the Enlighted One is no longer divided.

In short, Be. Do. Be. doobie-doobie-do

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

To hash out ones conglomerate side of this equation, is truly worth it's weight in gold:-))

Bless ()

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

My search for “enlightenment” takes the form of meditation and has led me to the realization that there is no real self anywhere. I've had several experiences where I felt that I was intensely alive but had lost all body and mind boundaries. This was without drugs, but it seemed like the LSD experiences I've heard about. I'd say that not wanting to seek enlightenment is not selfish as much as it is lonely. That lonely feeling which breaks through that most people experience when they realize that they are essentially in this life alone goes away with regular meditation. Although I move away from it over and over again, I know in my bones that we are all connected to everything. Sounds like a cliche, but when it's experienced it is so liberating.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

i would suggest looking at this a different way. one does not seek or attain enlightenment. our lights were lit when our atoms formed. enlightenment is the acknowledgment of our energy flow. what we can accept, not attain or seek, is awakening to the fact that we are already enlightened/holy/divine/graceful/______ add your belief system's word. there is nothing to attain. it is not selfish to accept what you already are.
i choose to accept. i accept my awakening. say that to yourself and accepting the truth of the saying.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Dear Meta-Panik of Gaia,
Spiritual Enlightenment eventually will teach you that there is no body or single life that exists separate from all your eyes lay witness too. Living as though you are a mere extension of the Whole yet consciouly aware of It  at the same time is all par for the course on the journey…The body is the death of Spirit which is Truly all there is. Coming to realize this will slowly rouse your conscious awareness. How you live your life in relation to only the needs of the body will eventually not really matter. There will be certain choices that will appeal to you naturally over others that will more accurately reflect your stage of awakening for example; the idea that it seems selfish not to what to seek spiritual enlightenment is a clear indication that you are well on your way….
Many blessings to you on your journey
Michaela
www.consciouslyawakening.com
www.michaelasorrentino.wordpress.com

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I know a lot of unenlightened people. lol  But enlightenment is a personal thing and one that should be sought after when we've reached a point where we're individually ready.  I've reached the “kindergarten” level of enlightenment, meaning … I know it exists and it will take some time from me to learn it further, but I'm still distracted by all the toys around me!  lol
If everyone were enlightened, who would be left to help? I never look at others and think about their pursuit of enlightenment because I figure, if they aren't there yet, they probably have more life lessons to experience before they realize the world is more than bills, mortgages, school, work, and owning Wii. It's a personal, private thing that can't be “judged” by others because it takes a lot of work just studying for a higher enlightenment than we already have.  Who has time to think of others' enlightenment?
It's not selfish to not seek enlightenment unless you know all about it and choose instead to live a life of delusional greed and striving for more and more power. Now, THAT'S selfish.  And people like that will never go away. It's best to keep one foot on the Earth when seeking enlightenment, at least until we part this mortal coil and no longer live with others.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I completely agree with you, Siona; not wanting to seek spiritual enlightenment is selfish.  However, one must first be somewhat selfish at the beginning of the journey.  It is so easy at the beginning to allow others to “get you off track”, and going in a different, unwanted direction.  However, when one feels steady enough to help another, great unselfishness is necessary in order to continue the process.  It is in helping others that we thrive in grow in enlightenment.  Our students become our teachers, and vice versa.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Even if seeking enlightenment does make you selfish, so what? What is wrong with being selfish? I see nothing wrong with being selfish - as long as selfish does not end with the Self but begins with the Self and then spreads and spreads to our families, our friends, our loved ones , our city, our country and then our world. Indeed, one be Self-Centered and selfish before one can help others. ;)

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Doesn't seeking enlightenment make us selfless? The path is to lose mind and ego.Then we return to source.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Yes, I agree with Alexa and Kundan. I think seeking enligihtenment is the most selfish thing in the world to do!  Wishing to give yourself this bliss, this love (!), how wonderfully selifsh.  Only if you love yourself, can you love someone else.  If you don't love and give to yourself, it is almost impossible to love another.  And also only a deeply selfish person can be truly unselfish.  Because to be selfish means to be self-centered.  We have been given the message from early on that it is admirable to be a martyr..the greater the martyr the better, to sacrifice ourselves and go serve the poor.  How can we be happy being taught to be a martyr?  But if you find your own bliss first, if you seek your own happiness first, then you will share it, you will help everyone around you to be happy also!  You will be truly unselfish!  You are not seeking other's happiness as a moral obligation.  You are sharing from the true treasure that you have found!  Your Self-ish-ness cannot be contained!

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Attainment there is unbounded beauty in your words, as if to appreciate our insignificance we can better understand how important we are. How then afterwards can one not appear to the world as selfish when there is so little of self left to worry about but so much more shared and given to embrace.
A sparkling response thank you so much.
Take care

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

No, I don't think it's selfish at all.

As humans we all have a right to enlightenment, as well as a right to be ignorant. To be told you're being selfish because you choose not to be enlightened is an egotistical thing to say on the part of the speaker.

You are never entitled to make others happy or enlightened. Every one of us has enough on our plate just dealing with ourselves. If you ever reach a peak where you no longer need enlightenment, you probably aren't looking for it at all. Only in death do we reach a peak in enlightenment. You should never reach that peak in life, in my personal opinion, and unless another has asked for your light you have no right to give it. We all have our own destinies to fulfill and even interfering “for the greater good” can cause significant damage to a person's individual development…which always trumps community development, in my opinion. A greater community starts with greater individuals, and people of like mind tend to group together on their own volition. There's never a need for force or persuasion.

To me, it's patronizing to think everyone needs to be enlightened. You never have the right to tell anyone else what they need, or to label anyone as selfish for what they are or aren't doing. That's my two cents.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

No it makes one wrapped up in the earthly vibration. I believe the search is innate, so if one wants the search or not its coming anyway.  Peace

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I don't think you can avoid enlightenment, all you can do really is slow down the speed at which you become more enlightened. Enlightenment, to me at least, is the act of growing, encompassing more as yourself. Every day you do that simply by living, you experience new, and the more you experience the more your understanding of your connectedness grows.

It's like this:

In the beginning there was consciousness with out boundary, encompassing all. Infinite consciousness created relativity, or, the big bang if you will. Which is an illusion, because consciousness can not ever really separate from itself, but it can IMAGINE that it does. Consciousness throws out seeds into the great nothing of space, also a concept, used to help define the many 'new' separate sparks of life that will become our universe. The sparks contain life, energy, and randomness. Consciousness has no definite plans for the sparks, but allows them their freedom to grow, tossed out from itself, like a farmer throwing unknown seeds into the fertile soil, content that they will grow, on an ultimate scale, but having no desire to command certain things grow in any particular shape or fashion. The randomness is the joy, allowing them to be what they will. The many great and grand facets of the Conscious whole. The seeds are unaware by choice, allowing them to play the game with fresh perspective, and truly enjoy the wonder of life and growth and all that is and can be for the first time.

With the “breaking up”, comes the ideas of relativity and time, space and relation. The idea that there are some things you can be, and some things you are not. The sparks evolve and change, and begin to coalesce back together into more complex unions. From particles to atoms, from atoms to elements, from elements to celestial bodies, from celestial bodies to great labs of random combination and integrations that produce living organisms. The organisms interact and grow and incorporate. Some even incorporate so much they attain awareness. The Awareness is simply an extension of the never ending push and pull yearning, to be separate, and explore, individuality, and to return home, and become once more whole with everything.

Enlightenment is the understanding that there is nothing your consciousness is not. The journey is simply you being a detective and following the clues back to that realization. The joy is in the game we have all created for ourselves, the discovery, the wonder of all the things we can be. You can drag out the process of that ultimate discovery as long as you want, but you can never avoid it, because it has never, not been true.

Thou art God. God is you. God is Everything. You are everything.

When these ideas fully sink in, and you can encompass them, then you will begin to see the order in the chaos, the love in even the darkest of moments. We will ALL go back, and when the circle is complete, and God, conciousness has greeted every last bit of itself once more into the whole. When everything has gotten sick of the game of not being God for awhile, then it will ALL start over again, in a new way and in new forms, forever and ever.

Amen.

Does not wanting to seek enlightment make you selfish?
No. It means you are enjoying the act of being an individual, and all that goes along with that. Englightment is about letting go of your individuality, relinquishing the game, and coming back to a greater understanding of what and who you REALLY are.

That's what I've incorperated so far into myself. Everyday I discover more. Personally, I love it, Enlightenment is the best game around. The more I learn, the greater perspecitve I gain, the more I am able to face each day with joy. I will tell anyone who might wish to listen, but I would never demand it, because I have come to understand, for everyone the greatest of love, learning that we are all perfect one and whole, that nothing is outside, is everyone's destiny.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Well put !!  I believe we all have to do the dance of life, the difference is that some of us will go through it time and time again totally asleep. which is fine. but after one wakes up, life takes on a whole new perspective. The terms “I” and “me” become less and less prevelent in your life and are replaced with “us” and “we. Most of us are still falling on our faces, getting caught up in the traps that lie in wait along the path, and getting wrapped up in the “mellowdrama” that is the dance of life. but as long as we get up, brush ourselves off, realize why we cling to certain things, let them go, and carry on, we are still seeking the prize.
Namaste' _/\_ 

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Lifestyles come and go with the tides.  Anything that can be gained in physicality can be lost.  The path to enlightenment is about deepening the awareness and perception of that which goes on.  One could look at the phrase “it is what it is” and “everything in its own time” and think that they can just do what they are doing and enlightenment will come to them eventually, in some lifetime, so why rush it? 

But “it is what it is” goes on all the time, so much is going on, and most of us can't perceive it.  We don't even know what we don't know.  It is what we cannot or will not see that needs to manifest itself in some sort of dis-ease to get into our awareness.  I prefer the idea of becoming aware of all that is around us and in us,  at the level that it exists, rather than at the level that it must take form, and this form may very well kick me in the ass.  I prefer other sensations.

So is it selfish not wanting to seek enlightenment?  No.  It is to continue in a state of unknowing, unawareness.  It is a great act of self love to seek enlightenment!

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Didn't read all the posts due to selfish hunger pangs….and my Attention Deficit Disorder created by pollution, drugs, unhealthy foods loaded with chemicals out of a lab and so on and so forth.  So, I must admit, I am conflicted for I was  following a neat discussion.  I also think the best way to handle such a discussion is to jump the system.  Is the answer “yes” or “no?”  What of a both-and.  Reminds me of Baetson's critique of Socratic Logic where the absurdity is truly emphasized.  Damn, I can't remember how it goes…let me find it…

Got if.  The following is from my book, Sophia's Web:

  
We make a similar mistake of fragmenting life when we separate logic from metaphor.  In today’s world, logic is the way of communicating, while metaphor equates with myth and is treated as untrue.  Hierarchy places logic above metaphor.  However, Matthew Fox (1981, p. 97) considers metaphor God’s language, while epistemologist Gregory Bateson (1985) considers metaphor Nature’s language.  In my view, Nature and God are not two for–as the forest dream of chapter 3 taught me–Sophia is my nature or essence.  Bateson contrasts traditional logic with metaphorical logic below (Capra, 1981, p. 81):Traditional Logic                                            Metaphorical Logic                           Men die                                                        Men die                           Socrates is a man                                        Grass dies                           Socrates will die                                         Men are grass             The column headed Traditional Logic is known as a Socratic syllogism.  This type of logic concerns itself with classifications that establish class membership by identification of subjects or nominatives.  The Socratic syllogism identifies items or things (Socrates is a man). This type of logic is not without its faults.  Suppose we came across a syllogism such as:                        Socrates says, “All Greeks are liars.”                        Socrates is a Greek. What conclusion can we make?  If we say “Socrates is a liar”, then our preposition becomes “not all Greeks are liars” because Socrates is a liar about Greeks being liars. This means Socrates might be telling the truth.  If Socrates is telling the truth that all Greeks are liars, then he is lying. If he is a liar, then he is lying about all Greeks being liars.  He could be telling the truth.  We could go on and on with this.  Forever!  Plug this into your multi-megabyte computer and see how long it takes before it blows up.            In contrast to Socratic Logic, metaphorical logic arrives at a truth by identifying verbs or predicates (“Men die – Grass dies”).  According to Bateson, metaphor expresses structural similarity or similarity of organization.  In my words, metaphor describes functional similarity.  For example, how are mulch, the sun’s rays, and male sexuality similar?  Woman—be she Mother Earth or a human woman–absorbs them in conceiving new life!  Our conditioned minds, educated in the linear logic of Socrates, reject the “Men are grass” conclusion as absurd. Reconsider this statement in the light of a holographic analysis, however. We are grass, just as we are everything else that lives and dies.  We are metaphorical beings or holographic expressions of the whole.  Jesus’ admonition, “Remember, O Man, that you are dust,” depends on metaphorical logic.  It requires a mindset that accepts the deeper truth exposed by metaphor, making the “Men are grass” syllogism more comprehensible.  So, in my opinion, the answer to the quandry of being selfish is more of a both-and perspective.  I think the “Bible” brings this out beautifully in its “Love thy neighbor AS thyself” and “Do not remove the smote from your brother's eye unless you remove it from your own.”  These take into account that we are a united organism and actually predicts David Bohm's Holographic Universe in that everything mirrors everything else.  Hence, the idea of selfish is nonsense….if you are truly oriented….your being self-centered entails that you see all of Nature as your Self.  Hence, Nature means Essence in addition to birds, bees and coconut trees.  Or, as mathematician Rucker says in his book, “The Fourth Dimension,” “Mind is everywhere and you have no mind at all.”  Or, as one of the Upanishads say, “It is above, it is below, it is, in fact, this entire world….and when one knows this one knows bliss in the Self.”  Bring it down to Earth, when Bush announced his shock and awe campaign against terroism….shock and awe is, by definition, saying he is going to terrorize a people into submission.  so, who's the terrorist?  Ultimately, I think we are all mirrors for one another and truly are brothers and sisters.  So, when you look into the eyes of another, be it animal, plant or human, look at yourself reflected.  Take care.  Burl   

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Actually socrates saying 'all greeks are liars' is in classical logic a normal derivative derivation. If socrates makes a logical derivation, that all greeks are liars. But if another derivation by socrates is that he is a greek, but deems himself right after all, we van simply state that the logical component 'socrates' is untrue. basicly socrates makes a derivation where he proves himself wrong.
If in both logical derivation (since socrates is super-imposed) there is no socrates. Then we have the classical 'Ex falso sequitur qoud liber'.
And that makes us able to say 'anything is true'
that is actually a legit logical step.

naturally your metaphorical logic is just wrong. Men die, women die, men are women. It is not even a logical step. Because the action to die isn't a statement of its own, it is charastaristic of being, of both men and women. it joins them in the group mortal, but doesn't equate them, after all: Everything dies.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

You are making great points.  REgarding metaphor, you're right, its not a logical step.  But, for the fun of it, what if logic is what is more limited.  In logic, as I understand it….and my understand, I'm sure, is limited.  we box everything in….it's either this….or its that.  You're also right about metaphor.  It takes objects out of a definitive category and unites them.  Everything dies.  So, perhaps the top part of my post could have been better thought out. I'm not sure, for I feel that it goes freely into the second half of my post.

What I'm not hearing you dispute is this second half, and am questioning, does this mean Domus agrees with this half, which is where I'm actually drawing my conclusion, or is it Domus didn't read it because the first part was so full of shit in his or her eyes, or that Domus doesn't know what the hell to do with it?  So that you don't have to scroll up, I'll repost it because I truly want to know your opinion so that I can learn and challenge myself for my goal truly is to embrace Truth and not get caught up in my own limited thinking:

I think the “Bible” brings this out beautifully in its “Love thy neighbor AS thyself” and “Do not remove the smote from your brother's eye unless you remove it from your own.”  These take into account that we are a united organism and actually predicts David Bohm's Holographic Universe in that everything mirrors everything else.  Hence, the idea of selfish is nonsense….if you are truly oriented….your being self-centered entails that you see all of Nature as your Self.  Hence, Nature means Essence in addition to birds, bees and coconut trees.  Or, as mathematician Rucker says in his book, “The Fourth Dimension,” “Mind is everywhere and you have no mind at all.”  Or, as one of the Upanishads say, “It is above, it is below, it is, in fact, this entire world….and when one knows this one knows bliss in the Self.”  Bring it down to Earth, when Bush announced his shock and awe campaign against terroism….shock and awe is, by definition, saying he is going to terrorize a people into submission.  so, who's the terrorist?  Ultimately, I think we are all mirrors for one another and truly are brothers and sisters.  So, when you look into the eyes of another, be it animal, plant or human, look at yourself reflected.  Take care.  Burl   

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

yes it is true! In classical logic, It is either true or false. Very black and white thinking. And, as it will turn out. Simply not true to reality.
In the past Brouwer has already disputed the so called 11th step. In which not not A equals A. As an example Brouwer showed that with three valued logic, this is in fact not true. Then if we regard continuous or even intuistionistic logic, all things find their place more easily.

Honestly said, I just read it down to David Bohm.
You see, I am a quantum physicist myself. And I have no affiliation with any hidden variable theory, nor with the mindset (determinism) that is required to use them.
The way I see it is that different interpretations produce better results, and some for other interpretations unexplainable results. Like the Delayed choice experiment. Something much harder to explain in a deterministic mindset.

You can follow the reasoning like this. First of all, you think you are. Afterall cogito ergo sum. If you think you are real, (which in essence is an assumption) You must realise that since you are real, all that you see (smell, feel, hear) must also be real, for you are real, and so the sensations are real. This is your reality so far, and I hope (for your sake of sanity) that you agree with it.

But now happens something: the core of indeterminism. What we see (smell, feel, hear) is what is true….

take this underlined line for a moment and think of it. Serious think of it.
Later on, you can use sience to actually proof this for yourself. You can do various very accurate experiments, where what you see indeed proves to be true. And further on, what you want to see proves to be true. (again delayed choice)
This is a rather important fact. Nature is (up to a certain 'conscious' level) what we want it to be. But it is also not always as we want it to be, and we therefore cannot predict it. As it woudl require prediciting ourselves, which is a quantum system aswell. hence suffers from the same rules. And that would require another prediction. Hence, it would require a determinative explanation about everything that exists simultainiously. This however is fundamentally prohibited by the laws of nature. And hence sparks the determinists idea of hidden variables.
Invisible units, or measurements we can never see (smell, feel, hear) or even observe ab intio. That do contribute to the laws of reality.
But that would require us to admit, that not everything we see (smell, feel, hear), is truth…
Hence you get the matrix idea.

so for me the bible has sprung from a deterministic mindset. One that in my opinion is just wrong. And so are all the things that sprung from it. I am not saying that it isn't usefull, or true in the region that it is indeed valid. because that region exists. I just say, that in the regions where I live, the regions of reality I deal with. It isn't true. And so not a good mindset for me. I do not have the problems as desrcibed above by you, I have different ones.
And as to my second logical step, that is, just classical logic.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Very quickly, I don't have much time.  I want to read your post again, and give it much time.  First, cognito ergo sum.  One of the wonderful things I did for myself when I was young was LSD.  What the drug taught me was that “what is out there” is not separate from “what is in here.”  In other words, the drug changed my perspective on the world and hence the world itself changed.  In this sense, world and Burl were not two but were dancing partners.  Now, you could argue, well your perspective changed because your chemistry waS messed up by the drug.  To that I would say, well what if our brains changed to the point that the chemistry that Acid induces was the norm?  Then our perception of the world changes.  In other words, there is an interaction, an intercourse, of what is outside with what is inside and they mutually “cause” each other. 

For you, the Bible springs from a deterministic mindset.  Ok.  For me, the “Book of Genesis” mirrors various spiritual texts throughout the world AND it mirrors the Unmanifest Implicate Order predicted by Bohm (as I understand him, I am a therapist, not a physicist).  So, in other words, as predicted by Kabbalists, The Bible operates outside of time and is true here and now.  When “God” says “Let there be Light,” then you read this page as a manifestation into Explicit Reality as one of many possitibilities from the Implicit Reality.  Implicit Reality is reflected in human sexuality where an egg and a potential sperm unite with the combinations of both were at one point implicit and are made explicit by their union.  Hence, our external perceptions are seminal to what manifests from the Unmanifest, which contains, as I understand it, infinite potential.  What I'm saying here is that time on one level is indeed deterministic, machine like, etc….at another, it moves in accordance to our perception (i.e., time just flew by) and yet another, time doesn't exist at all.  For me, to say one is real and the other isn't is to deny the totality of a particular situation. If I recall, you mention somewhere about Infinity.  Does INfinity exist?  Oh, I think so.  Yet, I also think that time and space end in INfinity.  So, when the born agains romp about saying, the end of time is near, I would say, the end of time and space is here.  In other words, behind this sequencing of events that gives rise to our perception of time is a state of timelessness which is one with Infinity for the INfinite cannot exist side-by-side with Its self. 

Do I have the scientific data to back me up?  Maybe, maybe not.  All I know I've been there, experienced it, and loved it.  Let there be Light!  Take care, Domus and thanks for the reply.  Burl 

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

(on your latin btw, couldn't help but laugh, it is either cogito ergo sum, or cognitor ergo sum (meaning, so I am a lawyer) or cognitio (I get to know you, so I am))

If the bible operates outside of time, then it must be independent of time. If it is independent of time, that means that it is constant in time. If it is constant in time, then why does it get re-written so often?

It is a typical bohmian mindset, you have an large source of invisble paramters, that can transverse into the reality or not. This doesn't make it true on the other hand. Let me show you this experiment:  Quantum eraser
It is a neat example on how a deterministic mindset has to conclude that time becomes a hazardous concept.
Either way, if what you believe makes you happy. There is no need to question it :)

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

At first, I agreee, if what you belive makes you happy, there is no need to question it.  But, then I thought, or, is there?  If I question my beliefs, can I allow them and hence myself to grow.  If I become unquestioning, then I become dogmatic and what I most love becomes bascially a corpse…which is what happened, in my humble opinion, to the various Scriptures (by the way, I don't say The Bible is IT….I say it is one book amongst many and is best clarified, in my humble opinion, by the Tao Te Ching….probably the greatest LIVING book ever put to writing from my vantage point.  I haven't looked at your experiment yet, but plan on it.  Regarding my spelling / Latin….hey, I liked, “I get to know you, so I am.”  Without any context, is there any self-knowledge?  If we stayed in the womb we would never call Mom, M-Other, for we would have no sense of ourselves.  Hence, the separation is imperative for self-knowledge. So, the Tao Te Ching sings, “AND THEN it is Mother of the universe.” meaning that it is when separation occurs that motherhood happens.   So, I would reframe cognitio, I get to know Domus and learn about myself.   

I think regarding the Bible operating outside of time, I would say it is not really an either - or statement.  It does both, it operates in time in relation to our perceptions and outside of time in that it points us to a deeper reality that is timeless.   Let's take the so-called Fall.  A literalist would take that to mean 6,000 years ago that a literal man named Adam and a woman named Eve were enticed by a talking Serpent to eat an apple.  I personally scauff at that interpretation, but don't feel it's worth arguing with these folks for they are too caught up in their position. (sorry, my spelling is not great….I truly did flunk English in Grade School….and don't even ask about other languages).  Anyhow, The Adam and Eve story could be seen as unfolding beyond time everytime a mother walks in on her son, perhaps 10 years old, and sees him put his hands in front of his genitals and screaming “MOM!”  this is the development of self-consciousness.  Of course, ancient folks used to romp about in the buff all they wanted, and still do…so perhaps they are at a level before the fall?  I could go for that.  But, anyway, the story both operates in time, in the boys life as well as in the human race while also operating outside of time in that it happens NOW all over the place.  Hope I'm making sense. My wife calls me, we'll talk more.  Burl

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

well, I think, that if you are not happy with your beliefs, or if your beliefs are not consistent. you will have to question them.
But I cheer you, that you do not want to become dogmatic. It is the most common mistake among religious people. Congratulations!

I like you latin :)

Sound good your reasoning. I think you will find the answer you will need.
As of time, what is time? Good question, the experiment answers it a bit. And looking a general relativity it has something to with the the speed we have. Or how short our path is through time and space (to eliminate the time factor in speed) It is wondersome what it is. We do know that without it, we wouldn't live alike we do now. We need time to view the world around us.
And as to the mother and self. Yes, Everyone needs to become self aware, but is this through nurture, or do we have to re-teach ourself this self awareness once it has been pulled out because our parents induced a You-are mindset upon us? (Ego)

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

That's beautifully put Domus.  We do need to confront the “You-Are mindset” thrust upon us.  As I think of this, the issue gets bigger.  For as a lover of Deep Ecology movement, I also think this “You-Are” mindset is one of the blocks we have as a species towards moving out of a life-style that is threatening our lives, our future generations' lives.  I'm wondering off the top of my head….”self-awareness” whose self are we aware of….what the Easterners call the Conditioned Self, the Self that creates the duality of “You Are” or are we at foundation Unconditioned…living in the moment.  The problem comes in at time, in my humble opinion, with our putting ourselves into either - or predicaments.  We are at once Unconditioned (in our nudity) and Conditioned (in our clothing)….yet our nudity is always just the removal of a few items of clothing and is who we are in our Essence.  I'm typing this in a rush due to having to go to work so that I make less than what my bills require.  Ah, to jump the system…but my conditioned mine…welp, better get.  Take care. Burl

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Domus:  I saw this in The Holographic Paradigm, edited by Ken Wilber (p10):

“He (Pribram, a neurologist) suggested that there is no such thing as metaphor-or, in a sense, that ALL metaphor is true.  'Everything is isomorphic'.  (In Eastern Philosophy, 'as above, so below.). 

I brought this up due to our discussion above regarding metaphor.  Take care. Burl

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

A metafor, is in definition true for the thinker. It doesn't need to be in the beholder. But this really is only a matter in trying to understand someone else. Whereas getting further in life requires us to look at ourselves, 10 times more critical then we do at other people.
And seriously, most people can't.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I dont think it is that complicated. I do not think the path of suffering enlightens “everybody” in fact I believe quite the opposite.
I believe when you find something that calls to your spirit, that excites you, that you have a passion for…………that is your path to enlightenment. This is where learning becomes easy and retaining knowledge just flows into you naturally (its not a chore at all), you feel harmonious with all living beings while you are doing what you love and giving and receiving is the easiest and most natural thing in the world. Here in this place there is no pain, just joy and love.
I believe the path to enlightenment is your own personal path, the one your spirit soars just thinking about it! Too long we have believed suffering will make us stronger better people or more humble, well maybe if your so rich you can buy a Roles Royce and you act like a brat, but I have yet to see people living in poverty or any kind of hurtful situation be truly happy…..or grow from it. Many are scarred and some look for answers, many do not.

Those who do what they love, never tire of it, or grow weary. This is the RIPPLE that calls to the hearts of humanity. That bring hope to this world. Enlightenment is the path of happiness whereby learning is joyous and exciting.

Is it selfish to not want enlightenment? That depends on what you mean by that.
Because it may not be the same for us all:) I know what works for me today, what resonates with my spirit and while we may all take different paths it leads to the same place.

Yes I am selfish. I am really happy doing what I love and its a good thing for my body, mind and soul. Its my path and I love it dearly.

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

I love your post.

I think for me there is a difference between Not Wanting to Seek Enlightenment and Seeing The Futility of Seeking Enlightenment.  I will try and clarify.

I will take the perspective of the Jnani ( Non-Dualist) , and from the Jnani's point of view, the quest is futile, not because there is no greater thing or nothing to aspire to, it's just that the method may not necessarily work.  From that perspective (non -dual) the seeker is the sought and the obstacle is the mind, when in truth the thing (Enlightenment) is always present, never wasn't, always shall be, but the little mind gets in the way and due to its conditioning says “I am Not God, I am not worthy, there is something greater, bigger, I need it, I want it”.  But from the Jnani's perspective, everything is Sacred, everything is God, everything is Enlightenment.

About 30 years ago I was very confused by Ramana Maharshi, the sage of Arunachala.  I couldn't work out why he spoke about NOT DOING, but then recommended people to use Self Inquiry “Who Am I”.  After exploring his teachings deeper, I realized that he was saying “It, God, the Big Buddha is always present etc…. but you need to purify the mind”.  I felt that to be very useful

So I really need to clarify the difference between not seeking enlightenment  and the same words .. not seeking enlightenment.  One is a slothfulness of being a slave to the mind and senses, whereas the other is Being God.  And if God is Omnipresent, God is here now, and it's the same world but it looks and feels different because everything is a part of you, everything.  

So when the seeking stops and a person is seated in their ''Godness”, there is no need to keep looking under rocks to find that elusive thing.  It's a bit like a dog chasing its tail, or a fish saying I can't see any water.

And when someone takes their seat, everybody benefits.  And ones actions are only compassionate because there is no other.

Peace

Tony 

Re: Does not wanting to seek enlightenment make you selfish?

Hi Tony,

Thank you I love your post too! I can only speak for myself and what I have learned thus far.  That to separate ourselves from what we are, what we are created to be, our feelings and senses, our identity and what make us tick for me is away from oneness with the universe. In my feeling the awareness of being comes from our individuality. We are created perhaps not so so much transcend what we are, but to live harmonious and co-exist.
For me when I hear this I think of separateness and oneness can not be. It is in being fully who we are in feelings, senses, talents and gifts that our abilities come to fruition. I do not think we have to separate ourselves from ourselves to be one with the universe. It is in fully embracing who we are, loving ourselves that oneness begins in what we have to learn here. How could I separate my feeling of appreciation when I see a butterfly or a beautiful garden? Or when a person is kind to me?
The answer is that I can not, because I was not meant to be separated from my emotions. Emotions/passion are what spark us into following our true path, love is what leads the way.
We can not avoid negative thinking at times we are human. We can not avoid ourselves or ignore our feelings. I also think it is where you are coming from that matters.  Good people do not always think positive, nor should they if the circumstances of their lives are unfulfilled and not for lack of passion or effort! Could you blame them?
I believe to have an authentic relationship with our “Higher Powers or Powers that Be” is to be yourself, emotions and all:)
Funny that when I came to love myself and all the parts of me that I thought were not good enough I found a person that is so filled with love who only ever wanted to give it and be appreciated for it and receive it as well. Thats not so bad. Negativity is a part of us as well, that does not mean it is a bad thing. We have all had our experiences! Hey I get along great with people who conduct themselves responsibly:) Simple as that! LOL
In the end finding what your path to enlightenment is, is by learning through love you find yourself growing and you do not even know it!  Growing feels good because your thirst for this particular knowledge is what fills your heart with delight it is your personal key “in”, your sense and feelings of oneness and completeness vibrate at a very high level. Days could pass and the only thing that stops you is the need to sleep but other then that time just flows by. And the effect you have on other people is just amazing, because they feel it too and it brings them hope again! Abundance of love flows to you in all positive ways.
I am not here to change anybody. I respect you and your beliefs, but if I can share something that opens a heart or an ahhh haa moment then I am blessed as well.

The universe provides.

Have a Wonderful weekend.
Much Love & Light to you all.
Liza