Gaia Community

Creating Modern Queer Myths

folksoul said Aug 16, 2006, 3:08 PM:

Awen asked at one point if people knew any stories that he could use and I wonder if we should not only be referencing history, but also referencing the present in our creation of stories. referencing the archetypes from our own lives and creating stories based on them. the characters we see and the patterns and similarities among them.

history of course is wonderful for many myths, partly because of the consciousness that went into them. the observations over time. are there ways through story to create archetypes others can connect with?

what queer archetypes do you reference yourself by? or even non-queer archetypes. what role models do we reference? who inspires us. i personally reference folks like da vinci, edison, jefferson at times, lincoln, reverend billy graham (who i certainly don't agree with on many things, but i find him interesting as a cultural influence and a reference for things). i reference christopher isherwood's career as something i may like to emulate in some ways. how about others?

whose lives do you reference whether as desirable of undesirable? it seems brad and angelina for example are mythic figures in our culture. many celebrities clearly are mythic on some level to many of the societal followers. their lives are viewed as the ideal to be aspired to certainly.

-d

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Re: Creating Modern Queer Myths

Bill said Aug 16, 2006, 3:26 PM:

it seems brad and angelina for example are mythic figures in our culture. many celebrities clearly are mythic on some level to many of the societal followers. their lives are viewed as the ideal to be aspired to certainly.

How oddly horrifying.

Straights and normals are so bizarre. ;-}

Re: Creating Modern Queer Myths

folksoul said Aug 16, 2006, 6:18 PM:

lol… one thing i have noticed since being on zaadz is that i pay a lot less attention to that stuff. not that i tried to pay attention before, but zaadz seems to be keeping me busy enough with ideas about things and with developing consciousness as well as some recent books that i got and just summer so i don't find myself even aware much of the time of what is going on in the mainstream. i wonder sometimes if i should pay more attention, but at the moment i am called to pay attention to other things and am finding it a lot different as far as life experience is concerned.

-d

Re: Creating Modern Queer Myths

Shaneequa said Aug 19, 2006, 7:40 AM:

Great topic! I am reminded of a similar phenomenon- the “diva” worship among so many in our community. Gay men are often enamored by female celebrities, so much so that the female “diva” becomes a goddess-like archetype for us. This is not a recent phenomenon- Judy Garland, Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, Lena Horne and other early stars were often idolized by gay men back during a time when most gays were closeted. Mae West often credited gay men (or “pansies, as she lovingly referred) as being the reason for her success. And who can forget the day of Judy Garland's death, when police were alerted that there would indeed be a massive gathering of “mourning homosexuals” in the illegal gay bars?(a day that would go down in history as the birth of the Gay Rights movement- the Stonewall riots.)

I myself am very guilty of this diva-worship phenomenon. When I was three years old, I would play my mother's Donna Summer records over and over again, dressing in heels and dancing in front of the mirror. By the time I was five, I had discovered my life-long idol, Aretha Franklin, who continues to this day to be my absolute greatest inspiration. For years I thought I was unique in my devotion to the diva, until I came out in college and discovered that virtually every gay man had his own diva, as well. This was a major turning point in my life, as I realized that I was not some sort of “freak” or “fanatic.” Each of my friends had his own idol: Madonna, Cher, Patti LaBelle, Tori Amos, Whitney Houston, Diana Ross, Ella Fitzgerald, and the list goes on. What distinguished us from “regular” mainstream fans was that we idolized our respective divas not so much for their music or fame, but for how they touched our spirits. As a good friend of mine once confessed, “Nina Simone isn't the greatest vocalist, but something about her makes me know that God is real!”

A casual observer might assume that this diva “worship” is nothing more than a sick obsession- a teeny-bopper crush on a celebrity. But I don't believe that it is an obsession, not in the traditional sense, anyway. I know that Aretha, for example, is not perfect- hell, she's far from it! I recognize the human quality of her, and do not consider her a “goddess” or a saint. She's an ordinary lady with a tremendous capacity for spirit- and she utilizes her talent as a vehicle to drive us closer to our own sense of spirit. Aretha, for me, is not unlike any other archetype found in the spiritual community. She has helped me to understand myself and my own connection to Spirit, and for this alone I exalt her.

I wonder if anyone else in this pod can relate to the “diva phenomenon,” or am I alone on this one? LOL! I realize that this is not unique to gay men only, and I'm also well aware of the stereotypical implications of such a phenomenon (i.e.: Jack's obsession with Cher on Will and Grace?) Yet I think it's most fascinating that so many gay men do identify with this. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Perhaps someone with a strong knowledge of Joseph Campbell's heroic psychology or Jungian philosophy can help me to understand this archetype phenomenon a little better.

-Shan

Re: Creating Modern Queer Myths

Huilo Marvovilla said Aug 19, 2006, 7:17 PM:

indeed, this is a topic of itself…and worth further exploration.

the goddess, the diva, the “makes me know God is real”…sort of thing…
and forever the popularity of the phenomenan of DIVA

so, yes,
mine?
hm well, shhhhhhhhh
is madonna,
wanna know why?

Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

folksoul said Aug 19, 2006, 7:35 PM:

willow… i wanna know why yours is madonna yes!

shaneequa… diva worship… um… i like kali in hinduism… does that count? i did like madonna for a while certainly, although i connected more with erasure and the girly man that andy bell was. i was all happy when he waved and said hello to me in the middle of a concert when i waved at him. that sort of connection. also getting his autograph afterwards. he as a character spoke to me in that he was so willing to be such a creature from another planet and expressive.

at this point in my life i think ramakrishna from hinduism is a definite icon for me. i have done some reading about him, but know more about him second hand. that he would dress as a woman to worship at times or some such thing. he just seems creative and quirky from what little i know of him. i bought a couple books about him, but found myself giving them away for different reasons and thus have not read them yet.

carrie ann moss certainly caught my attention for her androgynous ways in the matrix. a straight friend named dave commented to a friend on her being hot in the same week that i commented on her being attractive. both he and i commented on her attractiveness, although i said i could be with a girl along that energy and he said he could be with a guy with energy like that. androgyny has always fascinated me on some level. not sure why. so it is not so much the diva that i have connected with, but some sort of androgyny. guys in some sort of skirt or kilt, but who are not wearing heels nor trying to be women per say. a 'man' in a dress. a woman in a male looking outfit. i am fascinated by some lesbians who maintain some feminity, but have masculine energy as well.

tilda swinton in constantine as the angel gabriel. tilda swinton in orlando. julie andrews in victor victoria dressed as a male. all of that catches my attention. For me personally, I am not drawn to lipstick or heels or much of that stuff. i may enjoy the spectacle of a cher show, like the last one where she had a hindu chant and rode around on an elephant, but that was more the india theme that i got into. i enjoy women and their voices often speak to me in a song, but they themselves do not necessarily become divas who i want to emulate in any way or who i become particularly fascinated with for their feminity. that said, my ex adored marilyn and obsessed about her to some degree. a fairly high degree.

all that though i don't understand and can be bothered by (coming out of my bothered closet, which i guess i get to look at). in my world, i think it makes more sense for you as a drag queen and your history to connect to a woman like that and that i am thrilled for and it makes sense to me, but like my ex, and then this other friend who would just go on and on about women, it made no sense to me and a part of me wanted to slap them. at the same time there have been songs which have caught my attention and had me want to put on a dress or have some sort of outfit to figure out a way to perform them - both male and female. every once in a while i dream of the right outfit to trapse around and 'be' freddy mercury, or my version of him. as far as females, i think certain madonna and celine songs have made me want to do that. yep, celine songs. mainstream, cliche perhaps, but the woman has a voice on some of her later albums that i connect to a bit more as my heart gets more open and less clogged from all the smoking i used to do. lol.

hmmm…
-d

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

Shaneequa said Aug 20, 2006, 7:29 AM:

Great posts! As for David, yes Kali counts (although I don't recall seeing her on Divas Live LOL!) As for Ramakrishna, I don't know much about him except that he did indeed dress in “drag” on occassion, which would make him an “honorary” diva (kind of like Elton John or Little Richard!) And as for Madonna, well… of course she counts!

Androgyny is an interesting phenomonon. Back in college, I attended a very conservative school (Miami University), but there was a small community of radically liberal students who lived on the Western campus (back in the '60's, Western campus was the training center for the civil rights Freedom Riders… remember “Mississippi Burning”?) Anyway, during my college years, there was a big trend among western students to dress androgynously. Women (straight and gay) typically shaved their heads and dawned male clothing, while men (mostly straight) would sport dresses or skirts. Needless to say, Western students were greatly ostracised from the rest of the campus (there was even a short-lived movement by College Republicans to have us banned from Miami… but that's another story!) Several university professors also participated in this androgyny trend, including a 70-ish year old man who often sported a broomstick skirt to class (of course, he had also been friends with Timothy Leary and was known to distribute psylocibin mushrooms to students back in the '60's- yet another story!LOL)

To my knowledge, this androgyny trend at Miami University was very short-lived (1990-2000), although I'm sure there are still a number of students who carry on this tradition. I never understood why this phenomenon occurred, but it definitely had a profound impact on me. Gender was perceived as being fluid and non-confining; traditional male/female roles were obliterated from our world. Accordingly, sexual orientation was also perceived as being fluid; bi-sexuality became the norm. This mass adoption of “bisexual idenitity” had several interesting effects: it was no longer acceptable to identify as being straight or gay; monogamy was discouraged; and traditional gender “appropriate” dress was greatly frowned upon. In effect, we as a community were doing exactly what the mainstream students were doing: constructing rigid rules for gender identity and behavior. Instead of embracing gender diversity, we created our own list of taboos, and ostracised others who did not follow our code of conformity. (I say “we” because I lived there, however, I was also an outcast of my community because of my love for makeup and heels. Androgyny was the accaptable norm, not drag, which was deemed as offensive and “oppressive towards women!”)

Despite the failure of my classmates to create a truly free and diverse community, many of us ultimately learned a great deal about gender identity and sexual orientation. We learned that gender is a socially constructed phenomenon; there is absolutely nothing in nature that suggests that men and women must dress or act any particular way. Likewise, biological sex is also not necessarily static; intersexed and/or transgendered people demonstrate this very clearly. Unfortunately, in our society, there still exists very rigid and confining standards for male/female roles. I must give credit to all the androgynous folks out there for challenging traditional mores for gender behaviour!

[On a side note]: David made an interesting statement about his fascination with some lesbians who maintain some femininity while exuding some masculine energy as well. I too can relate to this. Several years ago I met a woman at an Ohio pride festival who completely interigued me. A lesbian of color, she was as stunning as any “diva” I had ever seen. Voluptious, graceful, flawless makeup, hair done up all fancy, exquisite nails, and a GOATEE! She was magnificently beautiful- strange- but beautiful! I met her only briefly, but have been deeply enamored by her ever since. Anyway, just a side antic…
-Shan

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

folksoul said Aug 20, 2006, 6:47 PM:

shanee… lol… seems like i need an affectionate name for you at this point and shan sounds like it misses the ee energy which i always enjoy. i have a friend who is quite the boy, in a fun way and his name is shane. i call him shaynee… of course you are shan-nee… anyhow… if that nick name makes you miserable let me know.

a guy i dated a few years back said to me that he enjoyed that i was a masc/fem blend and then a guy i was enjoying getting to know recently with a romantic energy said something to me recently about a friend of his who he was like 'girlfriends' with and i loved that he had more fluidity with his definitions. i have some friends i view as 'guyfriends' where my energy and their's connects on a more intellectual and more commonly 'male' level (not that all intellectual connections are male exclusive) and then some friends who i connect more on a 'girlfriends' level and some feel in between.

i was talking to my friend today about my androgyny reference over the years and in a way it feels pretty bizarre to me given that i have had that fascination in different ways (even considered writing a character like that in something) and yet had never realy connected that as a pattern for me in different ways over time. in a way it feels like a coming out to myself of sorts. a little shocking. wondering what it means about me. wondering what it may mean to me as a whole.

wondering if i want to explore that expression further on any level. there is a part of me that feels like too much expression of that in public for me personally would defeat the purpose as that for me would have me stand out and i am not one to like a lot of attention or seek it out. the androgyny of my soul is for me. on the other hand, there is a part of me that thinks for my own expression around the house or something, or at least in my room, it may be worthwhile. am i am androgyny king/queen in the closet coming out slowly? what the hell?

for the most part my physical expression has been virtually non-existent, but at least in the moment i feel like an inquiry of what my physical expression may be would be in order for me on some inner level at least. there is something both exciting and surprising as well as a bit scary to me in throwing out my assumptions about what my outer expression may be if i just let go of cultural views and let myself explore. indeed that is the soul at the heart of the 'radical faeries' it seems to me from my reading. seems like all part of the same inquiry. interesting stuff.

thanks for the inquiry shanee. good stuff continues.

om…
d

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

Huilo Marvovilla said Aug 20, 2006, 7:29 PM:

perhaps the word that comes to mind is Epicine….
an old/archaic word hardly used since the rolling stones referred to the epicines….

in light of this, the studies of third/fourth/fifth/ xxyy yyxx yxyx xyxy etcc gender explorations of humaness remain to be openly and actively explored.

I myself, love to sing the lyric

am i a woman or a man
i don't really understand….

i'm just me
i'm just me…

sooooooooooo folks, keep it rolling….
and david, can i do your makeup when you come out as adrogyny queen??? tee hee

i think what i'm learning here in the bay, is first off, gender is such a temporary assignment, and i've encountered so many gender fuck folks, that i tend to see us all as one wild pack of fantastic mutations of the human genetic mundane, eh?

and…… i used to get knocked down a bit when i did drag cuz at times i would leave my goatee on… (early nineties) and some queen said, “you're sooooooooo seventies….” at that point, I realized I was an adrongynine who loved penus.

now, i get so many comments on my drag fuck … that I just narry a care what box anyone tries desperately to put me in the gay world…

as i continue to break thru barriers and boundaries….

i was just at an event and someone was referring to another as “overtly GAY”, ….eeeek
i flagged him with a smile, and said, “excuse me, but What IS overtly GAY?!”….. I mean is there an overt gay identity these days???? perhaps in the past, .

but now, the expanse is growing daily…

that coupled with bi questioning, straight acting, etc, bioboys, etc etc etc…its either confusing or wonderfully expansive…

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

folksoul said Aug 20, 2006, 9:13 PM:

the dance between the value of definition and the necessity of it and the sheer hell it can create for us and others. creating a structure that one feels at home in, only to feel claustrophobic and need to move on.

love you comments willow. great stuff.

om…
d

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

Shaneequa said Aug 21, 2006, 3:44 PM:

“Shanee” is just fine, LOL!

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

folksoul said Aug 21, 2006, 6:59 PM:

lol… glad to hear… shanee it is then it would appear (at least from this homo being). now i have a friend shanee… and a friend shaynee… or shah-nae-nae maranga as i sometimes call him (you are the shanee of course!)

small pod aside… i had a moment in the car the other day where i turned to my friend and said… i love being gay… or some such thing. a really interesting moment. have probably felt that a time or too, but somewhere in there it felt deeper than it has before. probably all the reading i have been doing about gay identity. fascinating stuff.

lol…
d

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

Huilo Marvovilla said Aug 24, 2006, 12:59 PM:

yes, being gay is grande…
the deeper we go, the more we understand and delight in why
the queer is here…and has and always will be…
to do fine magic…
mmmmmmmmmm
aummmmmmmmmmmmm

Re: Queer Myth Archetypes - Androgyny

folksoul said Aug 24, 2006, 2:10 PM:

it seems to me a lot of people run around dancing half naked at pride events talking about pride and i have been to some of those, but never really felt all that proud to be gay. i still don't know that i am proud in the traditional sense, but i certainly enjoy my relational orientation and the variances that make up myself as a gay being.

aum… om… ohm…

:-)

-d