Pornography

Re: Pornography

Thank you so much for this. Having been involved with someone who thought porn was wonderful and laughed to scorn my doubts and reservations, I had become very confused on this topic, the rational process shut down instead of activated. This is clear, balanced and real.

What a very helpful pod this is, already,

Nicole

Re: Pornography

I'm really glad you found this helpful. I always figure if I've had an issue, it's probably fairly universal!

This is one of the highlights of working with Robert, especially in workshops, for me. Working with other people resonates and gets you to places you wouldn't otherwise go.

Porn is so ubiquitous, and works on the most intense pleasure centers, it's bound to become an addiction for some people. It's talked about on occasion, when someone's life is really out of control. But we rarely talk about it like we do, say, alcohol or drug use. We as a society have not really come to any conclusions about what is healthy or appropriate.

Liz

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It's hard to come to conclusions on what's healthy or appropriate when we have such diverse basic assumptions and beliefs, especially on these kinds of issues that can so quickly get emotionally and divisive.

cheers,

nicole

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True. But I'm not actually seeing a lot of disagreement in the responses on this pod or the Facebook group, so maybe I'm looking to stir a pot that doesn't need stirring at the moment. Perhaps my internal disagreements are just mine, for now. ;)

Liz

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Well, if you should decide to share your internal disagreements, I'm open to hearing them.  I must just learn something.

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In the essay Robert defines pornography thus:

Pornography is sexually explicit material designed to catalyze and intensify sexual charge in contexts that are not only aesthetically barren, but also devoid of caring and real intimacy.

Pornography is dehumanizing objectification in erotic drag, both depending upon and reinforcing obsessive interest in sexual activity and possibility.

This implies that there could be healthy erotic art - aesthetically rich, with caring and real intimacy; and also that a conscious exploration of this territory is possible (and admittedly, probably rare).

Pornography as defined above has certainly been part of my life, but my relationship with it certainly changed over time.  The first few pornographic movies I saw were really boring and stupid, and I wrote off that whole “genre” for a long time.  Then I discovered Good Vibrations, and got their catalog - which had an interesting sorting system for the movies, with symbols that meant things such as “chemistry between partners,” “good plot” and “high production values”, and I went through an exploratory period where I tried to find more interesting and life-affirming stuff, using that catalog as a guide with some degree of success.  It was a valuable part of my psychosexual evolution, as was my simultaneous (if minimal/perhipheral) exploration of the “sex-positive” and “polyamory” communities.

Perhaps a useful distinction can be drawn between pornography, as Robert is defining it, and “erotica” or some other term.  Is there a good term for “positive, life-affirming sexually-explicit art”?  Or is that even a meaningful concept?  “Erotica” tends to be defined synonomously with pornography, as “literature or art intended to arouse sexual desire.”  Is all such material unhealthy? 

Is the following film pornography?  Is it unhealthy? 

Orgasm: The Faces of Ecstasy is a 2004 release from Blank Tapes and LIBIDO Films that set out to answer the question, “What does the face of human arousal look like?” They interviewed 22 people, aged 22-68, in the San Francisco Bay Area and then asked them to have orgasms for the cameras. They told all the participants they would be shot only from the shoulders up. Some came alone, some with partners. This is a record of their experiences – an intensely intimate yet non-explicit exploration of human sexual response. Available both in DVD and VHS formats. Approximately one hour, plus a full hour of additional footage including the original 9-minute Faces of Ecstasy, a short film made by Joani Blank in 1996.

I saw the above film with a group of people at John Ince's Art of Loving store in Vancouver, presented by the producer Joani Blank.  The atmosphere felt clean, healthy, and life-affirming, not seedy or depraved. 

Very juicy topic, for sure.

spiral out,
Arthur

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Hi Arthur,

Going back to the original article, it spoke of teenage boys using fantasies of “hot girls” at school, so wouldn't it depend on the viewer? It seems to me that if people can look at other people fully dressed, even modestly dressed, and objectify them in fantasies, then they could use erotic art, a tastefully done film, anything, even if it is no more pornographic in and of itself than those fully dressed people.

In other words, is it, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder?

Nicole

Re: Pornography

Nicole: Going back to the original article, it spoke of teenage boys using fantasies of “hot girls” at school, so wouldn't it depend on the viewer? It seems to me that if people can look at other people fully dressed, even modestly dressed, and objectify them in fantasies, then they could use erotic art, a tastefully done film, anything, even if it is no more pornographic in and of itself than those fully dressed people.

In other words, is it, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder?

~

Good point, almost anything could be used as fodder for the pornographic mill if one is so-inclined.  It's almost inevitable that teenage boys will go through a period like that, which they may or may not grow out of.

A related subject (that came up in a similar thread in the Facebook R.A.M. forum is strip clubs.  There I said,

I went to a strip club one time and found it, not erotic so much as…anthropologically interesting. Like [the previous poster on the FB thread], I saw the women as subjects; one thing that stood out for me (um, so to speak) was the ones who were clearly *mocking* the audience; those were the most interesting ones. And interestingly, the other men in the audience seemed either to not notice these women were making fun of them (by imitating their postures, for example), or didn't care.

I saw a documentary years ago, about the formation of the first stripper's union in San Francisco called LIVE NUDE GIRLS UNITE! I would recommend it as a film that gives interesting perspectives from women who do that kind of work: http://www.livenudegirlsunite.com/

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Being a “union organiser” type myself, I applaud the initiative and grit of these women in organising themselves and encouraging others to unionise. Thanks, Arthur! You are a hyperlinker in the league of our dear Rommel… (sigh)

Peace,

Nicole

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useful thread, and thanks for Robert's article, which i hadn't seen. Helpful to me personally (I'd fallen from a rather obsessive non-indulgence to some regular indulgence in porn). I see how I can use it as a growth issue so thanks.

I think that the issue of “what is porn” misses the main point which is that the porn is not in the content but in our relationship to it - whether we treat the stimuls as object or subject. Some material is clearly designed to be object; for me erotic art of all kinds creates objects of desire. A better place for eroticism is in relationship where I am called to be responsible for my desire - or would be if I were in such a relationship.

On a related note, they used to say that masturbation caused madness; I'm wondering how longterm non-ejaculation makes one, or even if it's advisable or worth it. Tantric master Barry Long said that all men do it, but of course that's just an opinion.
andrew

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finnegan: I think that the issue of “what is porn” misses the main point which is that the porn is not in the content but in our relationship to it - whether we treat the stimuls as object or subject. Some material is clearly designed to be object

~

I think our relationship to such material is a vitally important aspect, probably the most important aspect, and as you point out some material is clearly produced from the point of view of dehumanizing objectification.  Don't we get a kind of “transmission” from media, so that the interior and perspective of the people producing it has some effect on our own consciousness?  Which leads to such questions as: what are we choosing to relate with?  What are we encouraging or feeding in ourselves?  (When we view pornography or anything else for that matter.)

As for the material itself, in musing about this thread, I remembered a distinction between “friendly porn” and “nasty porn” made by John Ince; here is something I posted a while ago that ties in with this subject and explains that distinction:

Using reasonable measures to shield children from toxic depictions of sexuality (e.g. imagery that combines sex with violence) sounds like a good idea to me.  But often that seems confused with a puritanical “sex-phobic” approach, which also seems harmful to me.  Movie censorship laws are really bizarre - seeing a couple make love is seen as a lot more dangerous, apparently, than seeing someone shot or stabbed.  WTF?

The following perspective is worth considering:

In response to those dangers, the best defense is a good offense. Children need to receive many positive messages about healthful and harmless sex to prevent them from linking sex with violence or other negative acts.

Sex-positive messages would combine sex with qualities such as love, beauty, pleasure, fun, relaxation, respect, maturity, responsibility, or consideration for others. If these positive associations were prevalent in society, children would be less likely to associate sex with violence, degradation, or abuse – whether or not they are eventually exposed to nasty porn or are sexually abused.

The positive messages could be presented in many ways. One method would be the promotion and admiration of nude or erotic artwork. In some parts of the world, such artwork has been considered classics for centuries. It depicts nudity or lovemaking in a beautiful, unashamed, and celebratory manner. Those are surely positive messages to send to children about sexuality.

Another way to promote sex-positive messages would be through informational, educational, and entertainment sources that feature approving attitudes toward the entire human body. Currently, the mainstream television and print media in the U.S. rarely show nudity. And when it is shown, the genitalia and female breasts are almost always blacked out or otherwise hidden, implying there is something immoral, dangerous, or disgusting about those body parts.

Likewise, schools are sometimes pressured to avoid using textbooks containing health-related information that includes images of genitalia or female breasts. Although the materials are meant to educate students about their bodies and enable them to diagnose serious conditions such as breast or testicular cancer, some people act as though the students could be harmed more by seeing the images than by undiagnosed cancer. Similar to the messages sent by nasty porn or child sexual abuse, those persons are sending messages linking sexuality to extremely negative concepts.

A further method of promoting sex-positive messages would be through nude beaches, resorts, and spas. At these places the sight of the unclothed human body, including the genitals, is associated with nature, recreation, freedom, sunbathing, swimming, hot tubs, saunas, etc. This leads to further associations with relaxation, stress reduction, friendship, and fun.

If children first learn to become comfortable with and accepting toward the entire human body in such healthful and stress-free environments, they are unlikely to ever learn to associate sexuality with violence, abuse, degradation, or shame. As Ince states: “Positive experiences that occur while genitals are in view help imprint positive attitudes toward genitals… . Organized social nudism … offers such positive conditioning.”

Although many people assume that children are harmed by seeing nudity, no evidence supports their belief. In studies of people who grew up in families that practiced nudism, the findings show no harms. Instead, the benefits include a more positive, relaxed, and accepting attitude toward the human body, and a better self-concept.

Besides, children in many cultures regularly see adult nudity and are not harmed by it. In those societies, the sight of genitals or female breasts is not considered erotic. And in cultures where children live in one-room homes with their parents, it is not unusual for them to witness sexual relations between adults. There is no evidence they are harmed by that, either.

Those facts indicate children could also receive positive messages about sexuality by allowing them access to certain types of nonviolent pornography – what Ince calls “friendly porn.” The materials include erotica presenting sex in a context of positive values such as honesty, equality, responsibility, caring, and respect. Or simply in a context of consenting adults having fun and behaving responsibly.

This pornography should be extolled rather than denounced. As Ince explains: “Friendly porn is educational … [and] conveys a very powerful message about the legitimacy of human sexuality… . The open circulation of such material teaches that sex is inherently good and normal.” He also says the idea that children can be harmed by the materials is false.

Friendly porn does not include, however, images of bondage or sadomasochistic sex. Ince points out that these depictions might cause children to become confused and misled about sex.

Although friendly porn can sometimes lead to sexual desire and masturbation, there is no evidence that either is harmful to children. To the extent they help children develop preferences for the positive, nonviolent, and nondegrading types of sexuality depicted in friendly porn, both are beneficial. And sexologists consider sexual desire and masturbation to be normal parts of growing up and necessary for healthy sexual development. As Ince states, masturbation is healthy, fun, and harmless.

Additionally, a positive view of sexuality could be promoted by a tolerant social atmosphere allowing consenting adults to do what they want without punishment or censure. When laws prohibit consensual and harmless sexual activities, or when such activities are denounced, the message sent is that sexual enjoyment is itself somehow bad – regardless of whether any harm results.

No other conclusion can be drawn from prohibitions and criticisms directed at innocuous sexual conduct. The condemnations and punishments are thus another source of attitudes linking sex to shame, punishment, and pain rather than to happiness, relaxation, and well-being.

source: Nasty Porn, Friendly Porn, and Antisocial Behavior

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And something else to throw into the stewpot:

From Shambhala Sun (July 1999)

Post-Porn Priestess of Pleasure:

Annie Sprinkle Takes a Sex-Positive Position

Re: Pornography

This subject doesn't seem to be taking off…but what the heck. I'll toss in this thing I wrote on the Facebook group and see if anyone finds it interesting.

Related to the pornography idea, and also discussed in Robert's “Pornography Undressed” essay, is sexual kinkiness, in this case, BDSM. I just read an article about a study that seems to indicate that kinkiness is just a normal variation in sexual tastes, and also that men into BDSM are less anxious and happier than people who are into more “vanilla” sex.

What do you think? I'm thinking I just don't know. Maybe they're only happier because they have so many endorphins running around in their bodies.

Liz

Re: Pornography

I love bdsm and wouldn't consider a relationship with a man who didn't know how to or was afraid of administering a good spanking.All that leather handcuffs and blindfolds…yummy ….but the main area I've hand an interest in over the last decade is the D/s  power dynamic aspects/polarities  which enables more within me than the kink of bdsm.. 


Liz I have never seen a sexual discussion ( much less one with D/s or bdsm) in an open 'spiritual'  or psycho therapeutical group take off. But I do know many D/s type folk who take their inner self , psychic selves and its development quite seriously.



Augustina

Re: Pornography

Augustina-

Yeah, it's not likely to go very deeply personal here, with this being open to anyone to view, I agree. So I am thinking more in terms of theoretical views, at least for myself.

What power does D/s allow expression of that just can't get out any other way? Is it simply that sexual energy is so basic and powerful that it overwhelms other defense mechanisms or repression? Is it that the chakra involved is lower, and therefore bypasses the higher, or cognitive, functions?

Is this just the most expedient way to access other parts of their one's being, bypassing the “headquarters” so that a more full expression can emerge?

Maybe that's why the men referred to in the article are more relaxed and happy. This practice allows them to fully let go of their illusion of control, gets them out of their heads and into their bodies.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying about power dynamics. What does it “enable”? Is there a corollary for a woman who likes to be the dom? An expression of power not otherwise usually available or recognized?

Liz

Re: Pornography

Hi Liz,

speculating in the theoretical realm is something I have few skills ,in  especially regarding sexuality and eros .Its almost as if in the theory I am confronted with an abstraction. I know about me, what I have enacted and what has been real ..beyond that…I just don't know how it would translate to the experienced lived by another. At the very least I have to begin from the personal.

Augustina

Re: Pornography

Firstly, as a Minister, I must say: Yay for BDSM!!!

I find Robert's stance a tad too foaming at the mouth and puritanical myself, but that's why God made so many variations of perspective for us.

There's pornography and then there's pornography.  Just like there's sex and then there's sex.  Or, just like there's exercise and then there's exercise.  All phenomenon can have bad types/expressions and good types/expressions.  The key is to be open to that, and to use your own discriminating wisdom no matter what phenomenon life presents.  If you don't have discriminating wisdom along a certain line of phenomenal occasions, get some.  Seek out good information and counsel.  No one is in this alone.

Sex, pornography, fashion sense, any phenomenal expression can be put into proper use in a spiritual life.  For good counter points I highly suggest looking into the work of David Deida. 

My wife (the most perfect manifestation God ever created), and I share a very loving, passionate, healing and caring love life.  It involves pornography occasionally (her erotica and porn collection dwarfs mine), toys occasionally, BDSM occasionally, and love always.  That being said, each couple must take responsibility for keeping clear communication lines regarding their sexuality as a couple.  I strongly disagree that viewing pornography is cheating, but any sexual activity done with intentional concealment does stretch that line.  A couple that can be clear, honest, and open about there sexual needs with each other is a healthy couple.

There is, sadly, a lot of very ugly pornography out there.  But not all of it is.  As the old piece of wisdom goes, “Buyer, beware.” 

Re: Pornography

Travis: Firstly, as a Minister, I must say: Yay for BDSM!!!

I find Robert's stance a tad too foaming at the mouth and puritanical myself, but that's why God made so many variations of perspective for us.

~

No doubt some would characterize your stance as smacking of defensive self-justification - but I'd prefer in this group that we not resort to cheap labeling or name-calling in lieu of making a good, honest case for an opposing point of view.

You may have missed an essential point in Robert's essay.  As I noted earlier in the thread:

~~~

The first time I read the essay that started off this thread, I thought that by “pornography” Robert was referring to any sexually explicit material which elicited sexual arousal; upon more careful re-readings, I realized that's probably not what he means at all.  Let's look at how he defines pornography at the very start of the essay:

Pornography is sexually explicit material designed to catalyze and intensify sexual charge in contexts that are not only aesthetically barren, but also devoid of caring and real intimacy.

Pornography is dehumanizing objectification in erotic drag, both depending upon and reinforcing obsessive interest in sexual activity and possibility.

He's being very clear in what he's talking about when he uses the term “pornography” - not just “sexually explicit material,” but “sexually explicit material designed to catalyze and intensify sexual charge in contexts that are not only aesthetically barren, but also devoid of caring and real intimacy… dehumanizing objectification…”

So, using Robert's definition, is it possible to imagine sexually explicit material that is not aesthetically barren, but aesthetically rich?  That contains as a central element real caring and intimacy?  That does not objectify or dehumanize any of the players, but honors them all as self-determined agents of their own destiny, as subjects with their own complex inner worlds and hearts that long for connection?  That is life-affirming, perhaps even spiritual?

I think we can imagine such material, such art - and that it is a very rare thing indeed, compared to pornography as defined in Robert's essay. It would be useful to keep Robert's meaning in mind as we move forward in this discussion. 

~~~

From your statement, ”I share a very loving, passionate, healing and caring love life.  It involves pornography occasionally (her erotica and porn collection dwarfs mine), toys occasionally, BDSM occasionally, and love always” it is clear that you feel your use of porn, bondage and dominance/submission games is “life-affirming, aesthetically rich, with caring and intimacy.”  Your self-assessment may or may not be the deepest truth of the matter, and it may or may not change over time.  I certainly respect your right to hold a different opinion based on your own experience!

I do not always agree with Robert's perspective on an issue, nor do I expect him to be right about everything - but I respect the depth of his insight, the wealth of his experience and the honesty, authenticity and non-shaming attitude he brings to his practice, writing, and therapy.

When Robert's view on something clashes with my own, I take it as an invitation to look deeper and come to my own conclusions based on my own experience.  I have followed much the same procedure with the work of David Deida (who I'm sure I've heard characterize pornography as coming from a lower stage of development; is that not so?)  In some cases I have ended up changing my position eventually (see Taking Charge of Our Charge, for example).

cheers,
Arthur

Re: Pornography

The issue of porn is one that I'm skirting around at the moment - with two teenage sons blossoming!

I tend towards the 'consenting adults' side of the argument but with the proviso that both of those words are difficult to determine; just how consenting is it for someone who can see no other way of earning a living (male or female)(and I'm aware that not everyone falls into this 'victim' category but I'm using it as an example); and how 'adult' are most of us anyway?

I know I tend towards the prudish myself but see that as a consequence of upbringing, life experience and my own particular 'biology'. I can also see how porn can be a barrier to real relationship. What I'm wondering is how to handle this with our sons.

So far we've taken a very open approach to sex, nudity etc. with the kids but often with the warning - not everyone is as open with their kids about this as we are so think carefully before you go talking about this on the schoolyard.
As for porn, I suppose my question is, is it a 'normal' part of psychosexual development, just a phase to be got through?

Juliee

Re: Pornography

Juliee, I think it depends at least in part on what kind of porn they're looking at. I definitely think it matters whether you're looking at people having a good time or people hurting each other.

I do think this is a valuable discussion to have with boys, especially now that access is ubiquitous. Preventing them from seeing it is nearly impossible. But limiting exposure is possible. Limiting time online and no TV or internet in the bedroom is a good idea. (Actually, I've never understood people who give their kids TV's in their rooms. Yikes.) With developing brains, you are laying down neural pathways that are going to affect them for the rest of their lives. Especially with sex, it seems these things get pretty deeply ingrained at a young age.

And of course, modeling love and respect are really key. I think it would be difficult for someone to develop a taste for truly hurting people if they come from a loving environment.

Liz

Re: Pornography

Hmm, my intuition was telling me that maybe we should get Deborah Addington in on this conversation; in her Fist and Fangs website she says:

“We are composite beings; though each part of us can be separately identified, no one part can be changed without changing the being as a whole. If you modify the body, you have literally changed the mind; if you change your mind, it can have profound effects on the body. To make these modifications consciously, to assist the individual and therefore the collective to evolve is my sacred endeavor. BDSM (and all of the forms of kink that fit beneath that umbrella) contains the passion and the spirit of exploration and adventure necessary to undertake the journey of evolution: kinky people are accustomed to stepping outside some of the more common boxes into which we wedge ourselves. I am expanding my audience to include all those trying to step outside their boxes, seeking information on alternative sexual practices regardless of gender, personal identification or social orientation. I don't care how people pursue their own evolution; I care that they do.”

Re: Pornography

On the one hand, yeah, it's good to step outside the boundaries and observe, re-evaluating what is “normal” etc. On the other, her view sounds a bit too accepting of “whatever floats your boat.” Not that I think there's only one way to be, but she's saying “I don't care how people pursue their own evolution.”

It seems to me that how one goes about it is very important, indeed. You have to be able to ask yourself, “Am I just mindlessly indulging in something that turns me on, without inquiring as to why or what is underneath it?” I've seen a great number, maybe even the majority, of spiritual seekers fall into the trap of comfort, or of spiritual materialism. I know that I justified actions in my past that I knew were wrong, in the name of being oh-so-postmodern and past conventional morality. There was hell to pay anyway, regardless of my justification.

In other words, is kink just another way of numbing the pain, instead of going into it and through it? It seems like people get really attached to fetishes and fantasies pretty easily. Calling it a spiritual practice could just be another way of stunting your growth.

Liz

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Liz: On the one hand, yeah, it's good to step outside the boundaries and observe, re-evaluating what is “normal” etc. On the other, her view sounds a bit too accepting of “whatever floats your boat.” Not that I think there's only one way to be, but she's saying “I don't care how people pursue their own evolution.”

~

I quoted Addington in the interest of tossing a potentially provocative perspective into the stewpot; perhaps I should have contextualized it by adding some of the text that surrounds what I quoted above.  Stuff like, “After eight years on the leather circuit, I can say for certain that my time among the perverts put me on a path that led to the Divine…changes afoot are leading me in some new and spectacular directions.  Leather led me to god, and god led me to asking lots and lots of questions about god that I found I had no answers to…The next step is grad school.”  Also, immediately following the quote she gave above she said, “All of this is still true.  I merely pursue this forward motion of life in a different venue, one that I pray will be of equal service to the community from which I emerge and the larger community into which I now wander.”

So, first off, I don't know where Addington is at, but it sounds like she is still growing and developing.

Liz: It seems to me that how one goes about it is very important, indeed. You have to be able to ask yourself, “Am I just mindlessly indulging in something that turns me on, without inquiring as to why or what is underneath it?” I've seen a great number, maybe even the majority, of spiritual seekers fall into the trap of comfort, or of spiritual materialism. I know that I justified actions in my past that I knew were wrong, in the name of being oh-so-postmodern and past conventional morality. There was hell to pay anyway, regardless of my justification.

~

My slight “flirtation” with the polyamorous/kink community was part of my own sexual evolution, but one of the things that I increasingly felt wary about was that I was meeting a lot of people who had really messed up boundaries.  From what I could see there was a lot of preconventional morality masquerading as postconventional morality.  Not genuinely integrating and going beyond the conventional, but succumbing to impulses and pathologies and labeling it transcendent.  This kind of pattern played out in a significant romantic relationship of mine too; there was some intra- and inter-personal carnage resulting from a potent mix of spiritual bypass, boundary confusion, and pre/trans confusion.  (Utterly predictable - in retrospect.)

Liz: In other words, is kink just another way of numbing the pain, instead of going into it and through it? It seems like people get really attached to fetishes and fantasies pretty easily. Calling it a spiritual practice could just be another way of stunting your growth.

~

These are good questions.  It also occurs to me that while some people might consciously explore something like kink, polyamory, etc. and grow through (and beyond) it, another possibility is that they might get trapped in identifying with that community, or those values.  Or, perhaps they are really “acting out” and just calling it “conscious exploration” or “transcendence.”  I have found it interesting and worthwhile to dialog with intelligent, fairly evolved people who are into those kinds of scenes - on the rare occasions when I've had the opportunity - but I don't necessarily agree with their perspective on the scenes they are involved with.

spiral out,
Arthur

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For Robert's perspective on polyamory, see Is Mature Polyamory Possible?

~

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Thank you for this article.  I simply agree with Robert; my own perspective exactly.

Isn't it great?

Clare

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Clare: Thank you for this article.  I simply agree with Robert; my own perspective exactly.

Isn't it great?

~

Yes, I love it when Robert really nails something and it resonates deeply with me.  :) 

Slight Clare-ification, though - I think you mean you agree with what I just posted (Is Mature Polyamory Possible?), but did you instead mean the article Liz posted at the beginning of this thread (”Pornography Undressed”)?  Or both?  Although I continue to consider these topics, I find what Robert said in both of those pretty spot-on.

cheers,
Arthur

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I agree with his final conclusions around sexual freedom, and choosing to simply love all.  Thats what's great. - The Mature Polyamory Article.

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 I would just like to thank the person who posted this artical. it shows a intersting view on the subject. If that is good or bad, I am not to be the judge. but thank you so very mutch for bringing these ideas into the light.
                                                                                      
                                                                                    A Nobody

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Welcome, “Nobody”! You don't have to be “anybody” to post or express an opinion here, and we're pleased you've joined us.

Liz

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vampiregarr: I would just like to thank the person who posted this artical. it shows a intersting view on the subject.

~

You're welcome!  There's plenty of other fascinating writing by Robert in the Robert's Writings board, and if you have any specific questions to ask him, please post them in the ASK ROBERT board.

Welcome to the group!

cheers,
Arthur

Re: Pornography

Okay, I've been dying to post on this and hear some of your views.

Hubby came home last night with a “naked girls wrestling” series on DVD. We often have been on opposite sides of the “porn spectrum” and he thought that being that it was naked, a sport (yes they actually scored the matches), and yet also being a porn (the loser got fucked - literally by her opponent) that there might be an equitable middle ground. The girls were wrestling, but were laughing and being very affectionate to and supportive of each other. 

So what about things like this? Where exactly does something like this fall when we're talking about porn? Is it still “bad”? Is it better? I did feel like it was a cheap excuse to get naked chicks on camera trading sexual favors (extra points were awarded for distracting your opponent with groping, kissing, etc). But the girls themselves at some point actually added an interesting point for me. Their humor, support, and sense that they were genuinally having a good time (not in the dehumanizing “oh yeah baby, I'm having a good time, I need you to want me” type of way)

Hubby's comment was that it somehow felt more “honest”. It's true that they were blatantly using sex as a distraction in order to win, but they were also laughing. Maybe it spoke to us as a parody of the whole modern “sexual” advertising, etc. I don't know…

It was interesting for me, because while I feel like porn shared once in awhile between lovers (I suppose this would apply individuals too) is generally ok and can even aid a relationship in certain instances, I generally feel that porn is degrading and I, at the very least, could go the rest of my life without seeing any, and be perfectly happy. There's not really any point to my mind other than base “need to get off-ness” and I generally feel there are better, more healthful things I could be doing with my time. 

At any rate, it made me think, and I thought maybe it would get you thinking as well. I'm interested to hear everyone's comments.

Mercale

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Well then, it does seem Robert has a lot of negative things to say, and no positive. Or did I miss this? He seems to have his pecker out of joint on this one, I mean really, how Victorian and unbalanced was that?

I much prefer the sex education that was in Monty Python's Meaning of Life with John Cleese demonstrating quite seriously with his wife, to teach the boys. Its a classic.

There are so many things to get annoyed about surely, there is a negative unhealthy aspect to everything.

But what is going on behind the scenes? It is generally excepted that men have a stupidly intense sex drive, and women less so. Not in all circumstances for sure, but in my own experience, 8 out of 10 wanted less than I did. I liked them very much I adjusted - it seems to rarely go the other way. C'est la vie. Our sex drive is viewed as abnormal, bit interestingly, not by most men.

So yes, its an interesting challenge. Certainly something that self-awareness and a healthy psyche can help a man contain his drive in a better way. But it is a supply and demand problem that no-one (that I know) has tackled fairly using all the quadrants…

Pornography is certainly a release for me when I am without a partner. I don't like one-night stands because they do not fulfill my need for intimacy. I am wired in a way that just wants one woman, and when I am with her, she is all I want. That may change after a long marriage say, but I have not had that experience.

I certainly understand the 'flammable' properties of discussing pornography and its social stigma. I do not want to be labeled, nor do I want to cause offence to any woman (within reason). But I do understand that my wiring is hugely different, and not too many women have walked in the shoes of a man.

As I eluded to at the beginning. We judge. We should seek first to understand, otherwise we project our stuff on it.

I think to bring pornography into a relationship can be healthy, or unhealthy. Is everything OK at home? What does fantasy trigger? I think its a very brave topic, everyone is shit scared to talk about it.

Re: Pornography

It is generally excepted that men have a stupidly intense sex drive, and women less so. Not in all circumstances for sure, but in my own experience, 8 out of 10 wanted less than I did. I liked them very much I adjusted - it seems to rarely go the other way. C'est la vie. Our sex drive is viewed as abnormal, bit interestingly, not by most men.

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Liz,

Sorry. Robert started it by not citing any science, he states lots of things without evidence, that is what piqued me. Anyone who is in a teaching position better be balanced in my book, judging things without balance, context or research smells of a 'complex'. All he seems to be saying is that Pornography is bad. He doesn't actually consider what the root is, and wishes to suppress the whole thing. Shadow anyone?

He states that Pornography is dehumanizing. Which means bad. Which means don't, and that I am bad if I do partake. Yeh, well thanks for helping me through the muck of my own genetic make-up there Robert. Nothing like adding sexual repression to my life, and here I thought it would be a nice integral conversation.

Assumptions, I thought this was a basic social truth about male versus female, it is what I have understood from my own experience and my reading…
How about the second page of this from WebMD?

Also I thought it would be good to be honest about myself, and what seemed like an obvious problem with Roberts take, whats the point otherwise? I like to be open and learn things, and I can understand when I make an assumption and learn from advice, but this subject is, as I said, a brave one.

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Robert was writing an essay, not a paper to be published. All of a sudden, when you disagree, he's writing for Scientific American? Come on. You're comparing a person with impeccable credentials to a web page.

Actually, right there on the second page it says something quite telling, though it seems to be unintentional.

First this: Driscoll says half of all marriages experience some discrepancy in desire at some point, and it's usually men who have a higher sex drive.

Then this: We also know that in nationwide studies, men report that they are happier and more satisfied with their sex lives than women. “In our study of people aged 40 to 80, there was a 10- to 14-point spread between men and women reporting they were 'extremely or very satisfied.' Women were lower in satisfaction – across the world,”

So in the same article, it says that women want sex less…but then says that they are less satisfied with their sex lives! Can you see a contradiction there? I have no doubt that the common wisdom–or whatever you want to call it–is that women have less drive. I'm saying that women's drive is mislabeled and misunderstood. Yes, even by the scientific community! (The same people who brought you all kinds of other bullshit about women that they make up based on studies of men)

I don't know how you can point to an article this sloppily written and tell me it's “scientific.” In one paragraph they say women are fairly happy without sex, and then go on to say they're unsatisfied with their sex lives. Huh?

As for studies on what people report about their sex lives, they are notoriously inaccurate. Women think about sex all the time.
All.
The.
Time.

Get more than one in a room without men in it, and it gets raunchy–fast. Get men alone and they talk about football. 

I have never gone a day in my life, since I was 11, (and plenty of times before that) without thinking about sex. I don't think I'm average, necessarily, I don't know. But I've had previous relationships where I didn't want sex with my partner. That doesn't mean there aren't 3 billion other men in the world. There's an unwritten assumption here, can you see it? That if she doesn't want sex with her partner, she doesn't want sex. It may be hidden, even from her own view, but her drive is still there.

No, that's not scientific, in the sense that it's not a carefully crafted study. But the stuff they're saying in that article is easily debunked.

I'm not just arguing Robert's views for the sake of it. I'm not even necessarily in total agreement. But I think you're sidestepping something here. I could be wrong.

Liz

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Sanjuro: He states that Pornography is dehumanizing. Which means bad. Which means don't, and that I am bad if I do partake.

~

That's not what I see.  I see Robert defining pornography in the following way:

Pornography is sexually explicit material designed to catalyze and intensify sexual charge in contexts that are not only aesthetically barren, but also devoid of caring and real intimacy.

Pornography is dehumanizing objectification in erotic drag, both depending upon and reinforcing obsessive interest in sexual activity and possibility.

There’s no point in getting righteous about how terrible pornography is, nor is there any point in getting liberal or righteously tolerant about it. Merely permitting pornography to speak and exhibit itself, out of some twisted notion of human rights, does no one any good. Yes, pornography’s voice must be heard, but not passively. It must be given room to extend itself beyond itself, until its roots are exposed. Allowing this is not the action of the weak or supposedly tolerant, but rather the action of those who know their own pornographic inclinations so intimately that they are no longer under their spell.

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Sanjuro: Well then, it does seem Robert has a lot of negative things to say, and no positive. Or did I miss this? He seems to have his pecker out of joint on this one, I mean really, how Victorian and unbalanced was that?

~

The first time I read the essay that started off this thread, I thought that by “pornography” Robert was referring to any sexually exlicit material which elicted sexual arousal; upon more careful re-readings, I realized that's probably not what he means at all.  Let's look at how he defines pornography at the very start of the essay:

Pornography is sexually explicit material designed to catalyze and intensify sexual charge in contexts that are not only aesthetically barren, but also devoid of caring and real intimacy.

Pornography is dehumanizing objectification in erotic drag, both depending upon and reinforcing obsessive interest in sexual activity and possibility.

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Hi, Mercale-

There are things I just don't feel qualified to address in your post. I will say this: I think porn shows an amazing lack of imagination. There are SO many other things, more satisfying, more loving, more fun, to do with and to each other in bed.

For me, and I speak only for myself, what my partner bringing porn home said to me was “You are not enough for me.” It was devastating.

This is not a blanket statement that it's wrong. I can't say that with any conviction. For me, it was not an experience I care to repeat. What a man does when he's not in relationship (with me), well, that's for him to investigate.

Liz

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Liz and Arthur, you've taken the words right out of my mouth!

Another thought to add to this is that if women are not feeling sexually aroused in their relationships, maybe this is because in the sexual arena, they are so often treated as sex objects, rather than subjective, respected, full humans.  This is a problem in a society where sexual objectification of women is so pervasive that even the most well-meaning man/woman/couple would tend to perceive a woman's sexuality from an “object” perspective.

Is it any wonder that a woman who is being seen by her partner, her relational context, and quite possibly by her own self, in a dehumanizing way, wouldn't feel aroused?  Imagine a different, non-sexual context.  If you are dehumanized, how open and willing do you feel?

Unfortunately, this dehumanization is so pervasive, and we're so inured to it, that it might be hard to see how a seemingly harmless video of naked women wrestling is, indeed, part of the problem.  It's not that it's “bad,” but it takes us further away from the deepest, most sacred part of our humanity and brings us more towards an “it” relationship with ourselves and others.

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So! A bit of fire in this discussion eh? First, Mercale thank you for sharing this intimate part of your life here.  Thank you for the trust. And thank you for your general enthusiasm, it has felt good to read your posts and I cant get my head around you rearing six kiddies/adults at the same time.  In your story, I would be first interested to know how you felt when he suggested this particular entertainment.   

On the discussion starting from Sanjuro's post, I agree with Liz that Robert is writing a passionate essay about his perceptions about porn - rather than an academic piece requiring references and evidence. So there isn't a good argument to be had there in my view. 

I also don't think he is suggesting that we suppress our urges to use porn! As with other things, he suggests not suppression or acting out but something else altogether - exploring the urge mindfully:  

For pornography to no longer be our erotic default, we must reenter, become intimate with, and ultimately heal the very wounding that originally drove us into pornography's domain; in doing so, we liberate our libido from its dark, loveless ruts

So our erotic fantasies are tales well worth investigating, tales that reveal much about us. What they dramatize is simply the sexualizing - arising from the excitement - of our longing to be fulfilled, safe, loved, needed, seen, touched, known

And…

Instead of just repressing or indulging in our pornographic leanings, we'd do better by exploring them and journeying to the heart of the pain and disconnection that underlie them. Instead of shaming ourselves for having a pull toward pornography, we can gaze at both it and at our attraction to it with resolute compassion, finding the courage to ask for skilled guidance in this if necessary.

Is this not in your view, a rather wise, loving, embracing attitude? A non-shaming attitude? I think it is. At the same time he isn't holding back on his view of the root of porn. There's a lot of shame around sex generally so I get if that comes up us around this issue. But I want to ask you: is there a hidden (false) belief you have that it is shameful to use pornography?  (if the answer is yes, take heart! you would be in the best company ;)

***

What I'm interested in is using porn, as defined by RAM, an awareness-deterioriating distraction? As Robert says:

Pornography's fire does not purify, but only inflames and engorges, both distracting us from our pain and bloating us with such heated urge that we seemingly have to have some sort of relief, or discharge of energy. However, such discharge doesn't rejuvenate or truly ease us, but only sedates us, dulls our edge, leaving us less motivated than ever to getting to the heart of what is driving us to so desperately seek the excitement and payoffs of our pornographic proclivities.

Is it somewhere on the spectrum of unwhol-ing distractions in between mindless TV watching and hard drugs?  Does it reinforce the fragmentations we are feeling inside between our body and mind; our sexuality and our heart; our Madonna and our whore? Our inner rapist and our heart-true hero.

So that when we DO go back into intimate relationship we are…ooops…a little more on the backfoot then we thought…

I'm thinking it does have that effect.

Peace, G

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Well, as I've stated, this porn thing has been a matter of contention between us. We each have had fairly strong views on our own side, but also a desire to make the other person feel cherished and balanced. So we've had a real struggle to find a way to make it all happen.

When hubby brought home the dvd he was so excited that he might have found something we could both enjoy! Honestly, I didn't see what the big deal was so much (as I said - I could go forever and be fine without it), but I was glad he felt happy, and I felt good that he was actively seeking solutions to balance our views, and I felt appreciative of his earnest thoughtfulness, however I might feel about the prospect of watching a porn. His happiness over feeling he did something good, and my feelings that he valued me are what I tried to stay with during the experience.  I wanted to be as open to seeing what he thought was of value as possible. I'm not sure all the pieces have settled from watching it, as far as forming any real views, but as I said it did really get me thinking (and I love when things get me thinking!)

My personal feeling on a mate being “into” porn is that it means he/they are dissatisfied with thier partner, or thier relationship and is looking for “something better” or more “exciting”. It can also mean that they are feeling underappreciated. I have felt more unattractive and like less of a person in the wake of a porn streak than at perhaps any other time. I feel my sex drive is deeply diminished when porn is or has been involved. (and not just for the moment - the effects at time have been long lasting - which in itself makes me feel “damaged” in some way, and doesn't help the process at all)  I feel hurt and unaccepted / unappreciated. I feel like I could be a blow-up doll, or any whore from the street. I don't feel seen for who I AM, or accepted, and loved. I feel like something to make passing the time easier, or a way to make someone to stroke thier own ego by being evidence that  “women want them”. I however, in that situation, do not feel wanted. I feel like an afterthought.

I do think that if you're going to induldge in porn in a relationship it is best to include the other person, so you're not developing some sort of “relationship aside” where one person is putting such intense energy into imaginary feelings of being “wanted” and “valued” outside of the relationship. I think in some instances it can help grow feelings of acceptance, and may even give you a few ideas to use together. However, I think it's responsible use, if there is such a thing, can be difficult.
 
I have heard things said like “I like to be extra hard for my partner, it makes me feel like a real man and that she will get more pleasure too” But I don't think she's actually getting any more pleasure. She's probably feeling so emotionally distanced by the lack of actual *focus* on her, that she's not getting much from it - unless of course she can pretend that she's the woman in the porn and that it is her her partner wants and has to have *right now* - but that's a hollow feeling, one she knows isn't the truth, and even if it works in the moment, it still wreaks long-term havoc.

As far as women and sex go, that's an interesting discussion and one I was a bit surprised to see crop up!  :) Being a woman, I don't think my sex drive is less than a man's. I think we are (often)  just more descriminate in induldging it. I also think that our sex drive is more closely connected to our emotional state. This is not to say of course that men's is not tied to that in some way, just that ours is either more direct, or behaves by turning us off to sex when we're not feeling truly seen and loved. I agree that women can turn raunchy quick, but it seems to turn raunchy (in my limited experience) to be largely when the women are single, not getting any, not getting enough, or are deeply craving an experience where they can be Seen, Loved, and adored by someone else in a positive and intimate way. I also think that womanly sex talk in general is in part due to women tending to share more intimate details amoungst themselves as a way of supporting and “checking on” each other - making sure everyone is doing well. This may or may not include sex, depending on the friendship in question. Personally, I only have one or two friends with which I am comfortalbe sharing the occasional detail of my intimate life. (This board obviosuly aside - I simply feel that being open and honest here stands to do everyone [including me!]  a potentially great good, as this is something rarely discussed in intelligent and polite circles)

Keep the posts coming!

Mercale

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Hi Liz -

I appreciate the topic you opened in this thread, particularly revealing your sentiments about your previous partner. I rarely encounter women who could or would honestly speak of their disgust or uneasiness in their partner's indulgence in porn or ‘porn-induced' mating rituals. However I have heard some women confess about themselves acting out like porn starlets to ‘please their man.' How this affected them, that, I didn't know.

I had a partner whom I had difficulty achieving passionate sex with for it seemed that his approach to lovemaking is very much influenced by pornographic sex - where there is little value given to foreplay acts, whereby the sex act deteriorates to a performance portrayed in porn movies where little or no consideration is given to how women realize actual pleasure. It was disappointing to a certain point because I felt a detachment in the whole process of a lopsided sexual fantasy and gratification. As consequence, I felt ‘less than' and obviously, sexually unfulfilled in the partnership. Then I started blaming porn, too. But as time moved along, I found myself digging into the deeper issues that lay underneath this issue between my partner and myself. Inevitably, we had to touch on our varied opinions about pornography and how this translates to our responses in regards to its influence in our lives - then we had to talk about the real fears about ourselves and deep-seated conditionings we carried and so immaturely romanticized.

I believe that our own perceptions on pornography translate to various levels of differing interpretations, both as an individual and as a person involved in a relationship. I somehow believe that porn can enrich sexually active partnerships given the presence of a clear and strong foundation of mutual respect and recognition for both the significant partner and towards oneself. But in so doing, I strongly feel that as adults, we should not be in denial that pornography, can and does, consume a number of us too, especially in this age of a booming pornography industry (‘horny capitalism' as Robert puts it) where there is less restrictions and more tolerant attitude in its production and free and convenient access to its publication.

For us ordinary people, how pornography consumes us (in the various ways that it can - directly or indirectly; small or in hugh measures) is spectacular debate. To the extreme side of the spectrum, I heard of some child sex offenders (those who sexually abused adolescents) who don't see any relation or link of their abusive behavior/offense to their habitual consumption of child abuse materials (or child porn). If reformative justice is implemented in this case, a significant learning may reveal itself.

“Like any other business, pornography arises to meet consumer needs, and also does what it can to stimulate those needs. Horny capitalism. The advertising industry milks pornographic angles as much as it can, because it's good for business, especially in the hypersexualized setting of contemporary Western culture.”

In response to Robert's statement here: Modern living has resulted to a fast-paced and consumer-oriented society - commodifying almost everything it can, including human beings. Even pleasure is strategically packaged and commodified. In our pursuit of liberating ourselves from all these pressures, there's a tendency to fail in seeing through and beyond the veil of our escapism, denial, procrastination, apathy and arrogance.

I applaud those who pursue for a sex-positive environment. As I do further studies on the topic of Pornography, I bump into movements surfacing in relation to this issue. I set my ideological principles aside to learn more as I could. However, my experiences regarding porn production is harrowing given the context of how this business is conducted in Eastern societies wherein the abuse, maltreatment, oppression, slavery and death of Asian women and children are involved. In this sense, whether porn will help an individual or relationship or not, is no longer the point of discussion for me. It's beyond rationalization or intellectualization. Like Robert said, pornography's voice must be heard - and I agree to what he said further - but not passively.

There's the demand side to the porn business. It will continue to be created and encouraged further and further. Horny capitalism therefore prevails, sadly though not in a balanced economic sense since sex slavery still exists. If the revolution we want is true; where we defy biases and conformity to what we define as ‘obsolete' in this age of transcendence, then we have to be very discerning, to have clarity of our visions and goals and be very brave in this process; perhaps to be brave enough to take accountability especially for our own self-transformation.

Are we truly approaching and on our way towards our genuine understanding of our sexual nature? I hope so. Sometimes, our own shadows may deceive us into believing that we are. I hope to have that civilization where nobody has to die for Sex to be served on a silver platter and sold; where we enjoy Sex and truly know it.

We have to be mindful of our choices; mindful in our breakdown and recovery. We have to be compassionate towards ourselves, knowing that everyone deserves recognition and real happiness in their lives.

Peace :)

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I think we're slowly bringing up every angle here, how great. It you're going to define your stance on something, it's best to consider every side of the issue possible.

Thanks for adding the porn star's saftey to the issue. Like the “girl wrestling sport/porn” is it better/ cleaner/ more ok when production standards give more attention to the feelings of the stars? (I'll assume that physical saftey is something we can agree is of import)

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Mercale: I think we're slowly bringing up every angle here, how great. It you're going to define your stance on something, it's best to consider every side of the issue possible.

~

Yes, great stuff! 

Mercale: We can do lots of debating and rationalising of the effect of watching porn on us or our partners and that's valid enough but bottom line for me is that in a large number of cases someone - man, woman or child - is being exploited, abused, made less of in the process of producing porn.

~

Exploitation in the production of pornography is a disturbing aspect of the subject, and how to reduce or (ideally) eliminate such exploitation is an important issue.  Conscious exploration of the subject surely includes that aspect.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a documentary I saw years ago, about the formation of the first stripper's union in San Francisco called LIVE NUDE GIRLS UNITE! I would recommend it as a film that gives interesting perspectives from women who do that kind of work: http://www.livenudegirlsunite.com/

Which, again, I recommend as giving interesting perspectives on women working in the sex trade.  The movie also talks about some of the exploitative practices there - which, in the S.F. strip club, pale in comparison to some of the stuff alluded to above.

By the way, the woman who made the movie (who was one of the women who worked in that strip club) went through a number of stages in how she felt about the work, culminating in boredom.  That's so hot - a bored woman mechanically performing for my sexual pleasure. 

Seeing documentaries about sex trade workers is illuminating.  It helps to make the “object” a “subject.”  If anybody else knows of good documentaries on the topic, please let us know.

cheers,
Arthur

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Hi,

This link isn't exclusively about pornography in the classic sense, but it is about women being objectified to a certain extent. It is about modern women being free to choose, and to own their sexuality., and what that may implie or mean.

Jennifer Fox filmed herself and her trips to a least 10 different countries  to speak to women of different cultures, over at least 5 years. Brilliant, groundbreaking stuff. The documentary is at least 6 hours long, but this link leads you to her site. (where you can buy the film if you choose.) I think it is well worth the mention. Apologies if it's not pornography orientated enough… but I had to share it.

www.flyingconfessions.com

Sharon

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Asia: However, my experiences regarding porn production is harrowing given the context of how this business is conducted in Eastern societies wherein the abuse, maltreatment, oppression, slavery and death of Asian women and children are involved. In this sense, whether porn will help an individual or relationship or not, is no longer the point of discussion for me. It's beyond rationalization or intellectualization.

This is something I feel deeply too.
We can do lots of debating and rationalising of the effect of watching porn on us or our partners and that's valid enough but bottom line for me is that in a large number of cases someone - man, woman or child - is being exploited, abused, made less of in the process of producing porn.

It feels to me the same as the issues in Stuart's 'promiscuity' blog, once you have a certain level of awareness rationalisations just don't cut it.

Juliee

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Mercale, this post tugged on my heart strings.  For what it's worth, I don't think your mate being into porn has much to do with you or any deficiencies you might have.  It's more likely an indication that he's got issues around intimacy (mostly with himself, but that translates to with others, too) that he needs to work out, and porn is a convenient and socially acceptable (sort of) through which to act out these issues.

I'm not surprised that you feel unwanted, though, since it sounds like his use of porn makes him less authentically emotionally available to you.  I imagine if his “habit” was drinking or drugs, and his substance use/abuse made him less available to you, it would be a little bit easier (although still a challenge) to see that it's not about you.  I hope that some honest, nonjudgmental dialoguing between the two of you about this issue can help steer things in a better direction and maybe motivate him to go deeper (no pun intended) in examining what sorts of issues are underlying his porn habit, in the interest of strengthening your relationship and enriching/empowering him to continue his evolution as a human being.

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And then there is Naomi Wolf's essay on the subject:

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Thanks for that Jane.

It is so poignant.

It also gives me a more specific angle when I talk to my boys about porn getting in the way of building real relationships with real girls. So far they haven't asked - like what? Now I can be more specific.

Juliee

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once you have a certain level of awareness rationalisations just don't cut it.

I believe so too, Juliee. And given this, others may perceive and consider the person with this level of awareness to be a
hardliner about the issue. But based on my observation, people with
strong sentiments on certain issues have poignant experiences related to what s/he is articulating.

I wish to add to my previous post as I've failed to mention the exploitation of men, who are involved as well in porn production or the publication of abuse materials.

I salute you Juliee in promoting and encouraging informed decision-making and critical thinking among your children. Espousing too value-based and gender-sensitive choices in what may be a very confusing and challenging time for them.

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Asia: But based on my observation, people with
strong sentiments on certain issues have poignant experiences related to what s/he is articulating.

Yes.

I'm aware my own experiences colour my perception and create their own shadow and I still feel comfortable with stating “once you have a certain level of awareness rationalisations just don't cut it.” The work has to be done and its not pretty and not easy and I have every admiration for those doing that hard work.

Juliee

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Hard, dirty work - truly, it is.

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Thank you for that link, Jane. It is very helpful.

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Jane: And then there is Naomi Wolf's essay on the subject:

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Exploitation in the production of pornography is a disturbing aspect of the subject, and how to reduce or (ideally) eliminate such exploitation is an important issue.  Conscious exploration of the subject surely includes that aspect.

The question that comes to mind here is: Why is there exploitation and grave violation of Human Rights in the first place?

Pornographers has become innovative in the sophistication of its products; thus, when audience is now the subscribing, captured clientele, nobody really cares about the nasty underworld and dirty belly of porn production. Most big pornographic businesses are transnational and highly organized in nature which is strongly linked to prostitution and human trafficking, where persons are coerced, deceived and lured in believing that they would be ending in decent jobs, or decent pay when prostituted. Most cases, women and girls end with debt bondage for life thus leading to permanent separation from their families.

I talk much here especially in the angle of the increasing demand for Asian women/girl child due to exotification of such race in a sexual context. Given a conservative sexual culture among Asians, it is seldom that Asian prostituted women can 'rise up' to the challenges of their victimization the way it is happening in the West, somehow in some ripples or waves, where 'sex workers' find avenues for them to unite and voice their opinions about the trade. Cultural dimensions play a part how resilience in this business is played out too by the various races involved in prostitution/porn.

Exploitation occurs due to corruption in all forms. And above all, what is true is the fact that exploitation happens as result or manifestation of total disregard for human dignity and respect for fellow beings. Then, there is greed for power, money, etc.

Its ironic that we can move ourselves to support the banning of environmentally-destructive products. As consumers, we know the power in our hands to destroy or cripple an evil corporation that 'spoils our planet.' Yes, I agree with Arthur that docs on persons involved in the trade are illuminating - they truly are.

Like I always believe: The medium is the message.

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Jane, thanks so much for posting this – it was great!  I love Naomi Wolf.  When I was 24, I was all set to get breast implants – had a surgery date scheduled and everything.  I then read her book ”The Beauty Myth,” which really jarred me at a crucial time in my development.  I canceled the surgery, and I'm grateful to her for helping me to prevent a decision that would have had life-long repercussions in objectifying me and cutting me off that much more from my humanity.

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Jane, thanks for posting the Naomi Wolf article. I really enjoyed it. Something else I would like to find though, some cold hard factual evidence, not just “I talked to some people” I'm not arguing the conclusion necessarily, I'd just like to know that it is based on something more than personal bias. Are there studies to support any of her assumptions I wonder? I'd love to see some science included in the debate.

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Hi Mercale -

I am mostly involved in the issue of commercial sexual exploitation of children which includes pornography. A progressive and emerging concern is much talked about globally in regards to porn and the involvement of children and young persons in its production and as subscribers themselves. A study on this entitled, Violence Against Children in Cyberspace was published by ECPAT International and this material has served as basis for drumming concern on the effects of porn in children. It also spiraled into the Make-IT-Safe Campaign - a global effort to raise awareness and mobilize support from the ICT industry as part of their Corporate Social Responsibility which includes players like Google in Brazil, PayPal and Microsoft.

A Thematic Experts Meet transpired last August in Bankok, Thailand, participated in by people in Government Agencies and NGOs from the EU, Canada, US and Asia. The meeting presented various studies/research on Offender Typology, Intervention, among others. 

I may not be able to expound on these studies in this forum, but sharing these events and mentioning the existense of such materials can be informative in some way. 

Information I previously presented in this thread is sourced from a study entitled: Endangered Generation: The Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes and Child Pornography in the Philippines - studies that involved my participation.

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Hi, Mercale!  I can't imagine that it's even possible to meaningfully obtain empirical measures of this kind of stuff using “science.”  I think “I talked to some people” (probably a whole lot of people, and probably quite in-depth discussions) is the way that this type of evidence is gathered.

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Thank you all for the smacks, it makes me think.

I have offended, please forgive me for that. It is very easy to get on a high horse, and my anger gets directed at 'spiritual teachers' who seem a little too spritual, and not so grounded, or rather as grounded as I would like…

Hence Gitanjali's Robert Quote to put me straight:

Instead of just repressing or indulging in our pornographic
leanings, we'd do better by exploring them and journeying to the heart
of the pain and disconnection that underlie them. Instead of shaming
ourselves for having a pull toward pornography, we can gaze at both it
and at our attraction to it with resolute compassion, finding the
courage to ask for skilled guidance in this if necessary.

and her review…

Is
this not in your view, a rather wise, loving, embracing attitude? A
non-shaming attitude? I think it is. At the same time he isn't holding
back on his view of the root of porn. There's a lot of shame around sex
generally so I get if that comes up us around this issue. But I want to
ask you: is there a hidden (false) belief you have that it is shameful
to use pornography?  (if the answer is yes, take heart! you would be in
the best company ;)

Re: Pornography

Sanjuro: my anger gets directed at 'spiritual teachers' who seem a little too spritual, and not so grounded, or rather as grounded as I would like…

~

Robert is very grounded, and in all the workshops I've been in, I have been impressed by how he meets people where they are, and helps them to deeply explore whatever their issues are, including issues involving pornography.   His way of working with something like that - porn or fantasy, say - reminds me of working with dreams.  What are the essential elements?  What's it really all about?  What kind of porn is someone into exactly, and why that?  As he says:

In considering our erotically-harnessed “solutions” for dealing with past difficulties — low self-esteem, family problems, anxiety, and so on — the explicitly sexual details are not so important as the setting, context, and dramatic particulars. Our sexual arousal might, for example, have much to do with simply wanting to be nonjudgmentally noticed by an obviously attentive fantasy partner. Yes, our excitation or “charge” regarding this may manifest sexually in our fantasy, but it is only *secondarily* sexual, its primary impetus being rooted in a longing to be openly loved and seen. This is further fleshed out and given deserving depth by closely examining the supporting props (clothing, furniture, words spoken, etcetera) in our fantasy — the details say much about the original context out of which our fantasy arose, perhaps making possible a reconstruction of previously unintegrated events.

Re: Pornography

I think if there's work to be done here it must be done by man and woman hand in hand. We as women often enable this fascination with porn, but to a certain extent, we do need to be able to keep our partners interested in us. The only road out, in my mind is together, both making  earnest strides toward really loving, accepting,  and honoring each other sexually and as individuals. 

Re: Pornography

Sanjuro: I do not disagree with Roberts method, but it seems to predetermine that the wiring we have has to be redressed to become more mature and connective. Maybe he is right in the long term, but thats a lot of men to awaken. How do we conceive of handling that without resorting to exclaiming that the wiring is 'immature'? That in a sense men have all the work to do?

Arthur: Our basic “food wiring” is the same, too, and on some level we may want to eat nothing but junk food - but how does it make us feel if we do, and is it possible to develop a healthier, more complete diet?  Can we consciously relate to food, where it comes from, the cost to the planet, how the people and animals who produced it were treated, etc.?  If I gorge myself on junk food, would it be worthwhile to explore the roots of that?  If I develop a healthier relationship with food, will I stop being hungry or eating?

Sanjuro, I don't know if he is predetermining that wiring has to be redressed to become more mature and connective.  I get the sense he has come to this conclusion after years of therapy! And not only him, its one of the bases of Tantra - working with our basic given biology/hormones/energies and making them harmonise at higher and higher levels.  Arthur gives a great metaphor for it.  

Its not so much a case that the wiring is immature (and therefore men are “bad”).  The wiring just IS - without any value judgement to be placed on it.  But we are at different levels of development - levels determined by our relationship to our “wiring” - the integral perspective.  (And as we move up these levels -some things we thought were “biological givens” start unravelling as just “more limited awareness patterns” - that's interesting - what is truly biology and what is not remains open to debate).

Great discussion peeps!
 
G