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Robert Augustus Masters

Robert Augustus Masters is an award-winning author, cutting-edge therapist and spiritual teacher based near Vancouver, British Columbia. His integral, intuitive work (developed over the past 30 years) blends the psychological with the spiritual (defined as “the cultivation of intimacy with the sacred”), emphasizing embodiment, authenticity, deep shadow work, emotional literacy, and the development of relational maturity.

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Discuss dreams, approaches to dreamworking, and anything else dream-related here.  Hey, are you dreaming right now?
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  Liz : deLizious

Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 10, 2008, 5:02 PM:

 

Last night, as I was relaxing into sleep, I had a vision of a car accident. Another car hitting mine at an angle. Nothing before or after, just seeing a car coming at, then hitting, mine. The feeling was of utter inevitability.  A fait accomplis.


This morning, I called my boss, told him I dreamed I was in an accident, left a message saying that I was going to have an extra cup of tea and take my time going to work today. I was a couple of minutes late, and drove in a very relaxed and conscious way today. Drove home the same way. There's nothing worth dying for on the road, right?

I had to go to the store and buy food. I'm cooking for my community tonight-38 people-and still, no rush. The world will not end if it's late.

Then, a woman was in line ahead of me. Three kids, one baby crying inconsolably in the cart. Not strapped in. I was on alert. Sure enough, the baby started climbing out, and   I rushed to him–got him right before he would have fallen head-first to the floor. The woman was not even fazed. Didn't thank me. The cashier did. So strange to possibly save a human life and have no reaction to it.

Got in my car and drove home, still with the knowledge that though I was pressed for time, I wasn't going to hurry. I was driving through a green light, and a man turned left in front of me. I swerved and was not able to miss him. We are both okay, he admitted it was his fault, and I'm sure everything will be fine, but a complete pain, but the thing that freaks me out is that I absolutely knew this was going to happen.

Liz

  Tom : borderlanding

Re: Straight up premonition

Tom said Oct 10, 2008, 5:19 PM:

 

Sounds like a classic, textbook-style premonition to me.  Tapping into the information realm, are you Liz?

  chris : Cerebral Potter

Re: Straight up premonition

chris said Oct 10, 2008, 7:07 PM:

 

Interesting times–eh. It’s amazing to me the span of the evolutionary spectrum. The unconcsious mom, the aware cashier, your prescience. So glad you’re OK; albeit a bit freaked.
What did you make for dinner (38 is a big group)?!!
Chris

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 10, 2008, 7:59 PM:

 

Chicken Cacciatore, green salad, baguettes, rice, bosc pears.I had two helpers, so I didn't cook it all by myself. But I did make a really awesome cacciatore.


I'm not a person who has dreams like that, or whatever that was, on a regular basis. 

I am really hoping that's it for this week as far as surprises.

I hope my car is fixed before the Practicum starts!

Liz

  Tom : borderlanding

Re: Straight up premonition

Tom said Oct 10, 2008, 8:47 PM:

 

(Two years later and Liz has her own Crystal Ball Business.)

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 10, 2008, 8:55 PM:

 

Honestly? I really hope not. I'm totally ok with time being linear and not doing weird things like letting me know what's ahead. This only happened to me one other time, as a teenager, and it wasn't pleasant then, either.


My car is totally tweaked. The whole front bumper and left quarter panel need replacing, wheel alignment, maybe a new tire, and I very much hope the frame is still straight. The only reason I could drive home is that it was all left turns.

Actually, I think it's time I went for a hot bath.

Liz

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Straight up premonition

adastra said Oct 10, 2008, 8:58 PM:

 

I'm glad that you're OK, Liz - the car looks worse for wear, though.  Hmm…keep me abreast of any further premonitory dreams, hmm?  

spiralz,
r.thor

  Jennifer : Content

Re: Straight up premonition

Jennifer said Oct 15, 2008, 9:20 PM:

 

And dinner was still delicious!

  Juliee : heart flow

Re: Straight up premonition

Juliee said Oct 11, 2008, 8:28 AM:

 

Glad you're ok.

It is kinda freaky when you get a premonition isn't it?

I had one about a plane crash. I woke and had a clear image and feeling of a plane crash, woke my husband because his sister was flying that morning. When we got up the tv news told us there had been a crash between London and Belfast. My sister in law should have been on the flight but she overslept and missed it.

Juliee

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 11, 2008, 8:35 AM:

 

It is, Juliee. There's that part of you that's so proud of it, too. “Look how special I am!” And then you realize, well, just how much do you want to know about the future? Especially unpleasant events?


I don't know why I can't get a premonition of anything nice. Maybe I do, and it's just not the sort of thing that sticks in one's memory.

Liz

  Gina : dancing

Re: Straight up premonition

Gina said Oct 11, 2008, 8:43 AM:

 


Hey Liz,

Its really cool you were able to stay so calm and present throughout the day. 

I can't remember a time when I had a premonition like the one you described, mostly dejavu or clear awareness of a situation as it is unfolding but not the movie and then the replay.

And I too am really glad you are ok!

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 11, 2008, 9:13 AM:

 

Gina, staying calm in traffic is one of my most challenging growth areas! So I have lots of practice, and lots of practice at failing. Yesterday it just seemed crucial.


I have to file a report with the DMV. I just filed with my insurance. And then I have to get the car fixed….joy.

Liz

  dianebardwellmasters : Momogoldfinch

Re: Straight up premonition

dianebardwellmasters said Oct 11, 2008, 1:11 PM:

 

hi Liz

hello from london!  Robert has a full men's group this weekend, so I actually got to have a day off and go to the Portobello Road market - a long time desire! 

I'm so glad to hear that you are all right.  However, even though you were somewhat 'prepared' for it, it is always a shock to be in an accident.  Have you cried and let the shock pass through your system yet?  Sometimes we are so busy taking care of business that we don't allow ourselves to do that, and the shock stays in our system. 

The first time I was travelling to Canada to visit Robert, I was involved in a minor accident on the way to the airport that took our my radiator.  I wasn't hurt, but was shaken up.  When I called Robert from the airport, his first question was, “Have you cried yet?”  I was surprised and said no.  He told me to find a corner in the airport and let the shock move through… so I did!  And I felt much better afterwards.

blessings,
Diane

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 11, 2008, 1:52 PM:

 

Hi, diane-


I actually thought about that all day yesterday. I couldn't find the tears. At first, I was cooking for my community and I was keyed up. But then my cook-mates and I decided I should take a break, I had a couple of beers (!) and relaxed. All I felt was happy to be alive! Dinner was a big success, and I came home and had a long luxurious bath, prepared by my awesome husband.

I decided to take the day off today and see if the shock would come. I am still waiting for it. It may just be that I will have to be alone to really feel into it properly. 

Liz

  marigpa : bodhi fractal

Re: Straight up premonition

marigpa said Oct 11, 2008, 2:23 PM:

 

Hey Liz,

I'm really glad you're ok and weren't hurt.

I/we had a very good day today with Robert, will hopefully have more to say about this after the weekend. I'm happy to be alive too… and am running what will hopefully be a luxurious bath… my body doth ache and can barely wait for the water to get deep enough.

Love, 

 Lol

  Liz : Intersection Princess

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 11, 2008, 5:44 PM:

 

Sounds scary Liz, premonition or not, these things always feel like near misses.

Sometimes tears aren't needed and sometimes there is simply no space for them. Though in this hectic year when I've had lots of personal stuff to deal with that some of you are aware of-anding marriage, selling house, daughter's wedding etc etc, I had 2 incidents within about 3 weeks. The first, my daughter slipped on a muddy country road and flipped the car into a field. She was suspended upside down by the seatbelt and cut out by the fire brigade, remarkable unharmed apart from some bruising. Then my son was hit from behind by some idiot wielding a traffick cone, he woke up in hospital having his face stitched and will bear the scar for life. They were amazed his skull wasn't fractured, and the scar is from where he hit the pavement forehead first, already unconscious.

I think I was just so grateful to still have them both, and to be reminded of what really is important, that crying didn't come into it. What would that have achieved? I'm not suggesting that crying is a bad thing, but in a real crisis is it of no help and smacks sometimes of self indulgence.

I also waited for the reaction in the following days, it never came, just huge gratutude and a conscious effort not to enter the realms of what could have happened had it all played out differently. And yes, I did address that I could potentially have lost them both in 3 weeks…but I didn't. if I had, then I really would have had something to cry for.

Take care of yourself however is appropriate for you

much love
Liz

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 11, 2008, 6:08 PM:

 

Bless you, Liz, you're SO British! I know I have a stiff upper lip lying around here somewhere! ;)


Well, I took a nap, and I'm taking it very easy, physically.

So far, I feel fine. I'm not going borrowing trouble. I tend toward looking at the bright side of things, towards finding the good instead of making sure my needs are met, so I'm just trying to be aware. It's been wonderful having support from my community at home and online.

Liz

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 11, 2008, 7:28 PM:

 

Liz, I don't think crying is ever self-indulgence (unless it's feigned), and I don't agree that it's of “no help.”  Crying is a way to connect with and release what's going on inside – fear, sadness, joy, anger, shame, etc.  In a crisis, taking action is the external work that's needed to make things right, and crying can be the internal work that's needed to make things right.  In an integral framework, the internal is as important as the external, and ultimately they aren't really two separate things.

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 12, 2008, 5:06 AM:

 

This 'aside' about releasing the 'energy' of an acute non-fatal, 100% recoverable-from incident strikes me very surprisingly!  I don't know what extent of “suppression” I have done, or regularly do….but if my car was run into, and there was no personal 'bodily' damage I might have a mild, reaction to the inconvenience of the damaged car, and otherwise, I doubt my heartbeat would even increase  at the scene of the accident, short of the time it takes to metabolize adrenaline in the 'fight or flight' response for survival….. I would have no tears….and I would experience an immediate sweet sense of gratitude that 'nothing much' happened that I need to be in any way sad about……. 


I remember my father saying, “I guess they've never lost anybody on the table.”   and also his: “I complained because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet.”  In turn, perhaps I minimize the shock going through another person, and I might seem insensitive about what  is going on for them, and similarly, perhaps, I might be doing the same to myself….but Fuck! I am with you Tiki-Liz, everything we walk away from is a good day!  and I am grateful for it!  Suddenly Jesse Winchester is singing in my head, “Trouble I have seen Trouble, all around my door”, and it just does not look the same as a bent fender or a smucked car frame……or even a nearly-disasterous-happening-then-but-not-quite…… 

Not only do I not feel much alarm about that sort of thing, but I also feel irritated to some extent when I am in a position that someone expects me to hold the space for them to grieve or process their 'shock' about something I 'judge' to be so low down on the richter scale of trauma that I would not notice it….  My natural response is “oh fer chrissake, get a grip!”  

I am just realizing this irritation as I write this morning, this irritation–and the exhaustion that accompanies it…… “compassion fatigue”…. this phrase has been coming up in the past few days, and November, the dark month is soon to be survived for another year.   I wonder when  'processing trauma' is a pampered, neurotic indulgence that really just reinforces a lack of fortitude and needing a good reality check about what is a trauma and what is not…., and when it is 'real' necessity?   

Some years ago, when I was working in the midst of the gas-sniffing crisis in Sheshatshiu, with children dying weekly, in multiples…a patient came in at the end of clinic when I was hurrying to get home to my two children.  He was drunk and insisted on being seen, so my secretary let him in… his bleary, beery, drunkeness he told me that he was really angry at me, and when I asked why, he said that some years before I had treated him for head lice and he had been humiliated by this.  I can remember taking a deep breath, and recalling all the stories of how the nuns had shaved and humiliated young kids as related to the head lice, and how this was really sad, how it had happened, I considered how whatever happened in my interaction with him had probably triggered this humiliation…so I took another deep breath, and I said, “I am sorry if you felt humiliated” and was about to continue something along that line when he repeated again in his drunken slur “You humiliated me when you gave me that cream.”….and suddenly, I lost it, one of one or two times in my career…..I lost it, and in explosive uncontrolled fury I stood up and screamed “I can't fucking take this anymore.  Fuck off  and get the fuck out of my office.  There are little children dying every fucking day around here, hanging off of trees, and having their faces blown off, and burning up in fires, and all you fucking grown up people just keep drinking and blaming and drinking and blaming… all these little children are dying… fuck off, I have had enough of this fucking shit….” With which I walked out slamming all the doors on the way out of my office and drove home in an absolute ocean of overwhelm and tears and grief.  (As I am writing this, I am crying again….)  

I guess it begs the question, what is real trauma and what is an event that just is an interesting experience?  And when is processing 'trauma' actually healing, and when is it a neurotic indulgence about something that needs a stiff upper lip and a steeling of the heart…? 
Jane









  Clare : Anam Cara

Re: Straight up premonition

Clare said Oct 12, 2008, 5:42 AM:

 

Hi Jane,  Your post caught my eye, and I empathise with you and hear you.  You say…


I guess it begs the question, what is real trauma and what is an event that just is an interesting experience?  And when is processing 'trauma' actually healing, and when is it a neurotic indulgence about something that needs a stiff upper lip and a steeling of the heart…?

Terri Larimore, writes below on the difference between shock and trauma, and I reckon many of us here on this forum also carry either shock or trauma in our bodies.  I know for one, that I am a 'shock' person, and carried this in my body for 50 years.  Thank goodness, now released.

 I can hear your compassion fatigue,  and absolute frustration and anger, when so many little children are dying and this drunken man comes in with what sounds like such a trivial complaint.  But perhaps, there was so much more underneath the simple humiliation of  his having to admit to having head lice, and being treated by a woman, may have triggered ancient repressed wounds. And your reaction suggests that you may not just have been angry about the current situation, but perhaps a great deal of repressed anger, which also got triggered.You will never know about this man but hopefully, you might find something in the article below.  When our reaction is out of proportion to the situation, we can be assured that there is much more underneath.

Emotional Shock and Trauma is a new approach to understanding and treating emotional wounds that are rooted in painful experiences of childhood, infancy, birth, or prenatal development (or before). Much of this work is influenced by the innovative developments and discoveries of William Emerson, Ph.D., and Graham Farrant, M.D.
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Research continues to point to earlier and earlier experiences as the foundation for most of our conscious and unconscious issues, patterns and struggles. We have discovered (and are continuing to develop) protocols for recognizing and treating the emotional wounds that result from these very early experiences.
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How these earliest memories are stored and transmitted is not understood at this time. However, there is clear evidence that these earliest memories ARE stored and transmitted, and I am certain that at some point we will understand how. Medical understanding has grown significantly in the past few years to accept that babies are more sensitive than previously believed, and the trend is toward accepting that that sensitivity begins at an earlier and earlier age.
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The recognition that emotional shock (the most severe level of trauma) is different in most ways from emotional trauma is an exciting and encouraging innovation. Most therapies and most professionals do not recognize emotional shock and do not differentiate between the treatment for trauma and shock. This lack of understanding and skill is a major cause for therapeutic failure (or failure-to-progress).
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Emotional trauma and shock usually arise from stressful experiences during our earliest development, including prenatal development and birth. Shock obscures access to full consciousness - including the deepest and most instinctual aspects of the Self - resulting in difficulties with intimacy, spirituality and self-esteem (just to name a few).
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Shock is held in the body and reactivated by events in daily life until it is resolved. Shock requires completely different treatment from trauma plus the additional step of deconditioning the physiological shock response. This physiological shock response, if untreated, keeps us in a state of “overdrive” that leads to adrenal fatigue and, eventually, adrenal exhaustion and adrenal death. This adrenal drain is a major contributing factor to many conditions and diseases.
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In addition, research has documented specific behaviour patterns as well as emotional, psychological and physiological predispositions caused by trauma or shock at various stages of development and birth (going back to pre-conception). This “road map” allows us to work effectively with persistent conscious and unconscious issues - even those that have failed to shift with other therapies. In fact, the failure to respond to good, deep, otherwise effective therapy is one of the most obvious signals that you are dealing with shock instead of trauma.
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INTRODUCTION
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Most people are familiar with the concept of emotional trauma - an event or circumstance that is emotionally painful, causing a wound (or trauma), the energy of which continues to affect our lives long after the event ends. The effects of these traumas can be subtle (preference for solitary activities) or profound (rage), functional (drive to succeed) or dysfunctional (inability to express yourself). Traumas tend to manifest in patterns of behaviour and ways of being in the world. How a person manifests emotional trauma varies widely - and the same trauma can produce very different patterns from person to person.
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However, in the last few years, pioneers in the field have discovered a lot about the most extreme levels of emotional trauma. The most startling finding is that extreme trauma (renamed shock, for clarity) has completely different dynamics and treatment needs than lesser levels of trauma.
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There are many ways to describe this difference. One way I describe shock is to imagine heating up a pot of water. For a long time, the water is the same - just with more heat. However, at some point, it gets enough heat in it and becomes steam. Now steam is not just hotter water - it is something completely different. Similarly, the most extreme level of trauma, shock, is not just MORE trauma. The severity makes it something different - and that warrants a different name.
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Keep in mind the when we use the word shock we are talking about several things. Shock is:

    * an event
    * the resulting physiological reaction
    * the resulting physiological cycle
    * the persisting psychological pattern(s)
    * an overall (usually unconscious) chronic state of the body/mind

To introduce the concepts of shock and trauma, I use the following story. It is not literal, of course, but gives a good overview of the different paradigms.
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With emotional trauma, a painful experience happens to you. As this experience is flying toward you (think of standing on a curb and having mud being splashed on you by a passing 18 wheeler), you react quickly and put up whatever defenses you can (imagine a big catchers mitt) to ward off as much impact as possible. Some of it gets on you anyway, and it is messy and awful - but some of the experience (the mud) is caught in the glove. Then, you scrape the mud from the glove and stuff it into a Ziplock® bag, put that bag in a Tupperware® container, wrap the Tupperware in a big box, seal it with strong tape, put the box in a safe, carry the safe into a cave, dig a big hole and bury the safe, seal the cave, surround it with an electric fence (and maybe a moat), post armed guards, and put up Do Not Trespass signs. (Whew!) Sometimes, we even put up a sign that renames the area Happyville. (You get the idea!) Each person has his/her own defenses, and some are more elaborate than others.
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However, the smell or energy of the stored mud still permeates your life - holding you in certain patterns and behaviours (in spite of your intentions otherwise). It is necessary to unearth that mud, deal with it, and allow it to resolve. So, you have to take down the fences, dig up the safe, find a way to open the safe, unseal the Ziplock, etc., etc. Then - with your adult capabilities and with help - you face the stored-away mud, allow yourself to get muddy again, feel the messiness and pain of it, and deal with it in whatever ways are necessary. Eventually you get cleaned off and are no longer bound by the unresolved buried pain. So, the paradigm in healing trauma is to open, get closer to the pain (messy and muddy), to lessen defenses, become more vulnerable, and feel more deeply whatever it is that is stored away and unfelt. With trauma, feeling the hurt more is better. As you reach and express the stored feelings, they are released and healed, and the energy can then shift - providing profound relief from many long-term symptoms.
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With emotional shock, there is no aspect of the painful experience that is unfelt; nothing was caught in the mitt. Indeed, with shock, you virtually have no mitt (or at least not an effective one). This can be caused by two factors: the inadequacy or immaturity of defenses and/or the enormity of the experience. So a shocking experience happens, and you are fully impacted by it. Picture the same scene - standing on a curb, but the 18 wheeler drives off the road and runs you over. You are flat - squished. Whatever defenses you may have had were totally inadequate to protect you. There is no stored (unfelt) pain; you have felt it all. The long-term effects in life are not due to some stored away experience that needs to be felt; there is nothing that has been stored away. It would just be mean to encourage a person in this situation to feel their squishedness more deeply. To delve more deeply into the painful experience is just to torture yourself.
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The need in shock is to get away from the experience, to build defenses, to get perspective, become less vulnerable. Think of how you would react if you loved that person run over by the 18-wheeler. You would NOT invite him to feel his “squishedness” more deeply. You would rush to the site, pick him up, help calm his racing heart, reassure him it's over and he's going to be OK, splint his broken limbs, help him learn how to cross a street safely, de-condition the responses programmed into his body by the experience, reprogram the beliefs that he adopted as a result of getting run over, teach him to recognize (and avoid) 18-wheelers, etc. Well, this is basically how you treat shock. Of course, this is oversimplified, but generally accurate.
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So, in general, you need to get closer to, feel and release the energy of an emotional trauma (think Breakthrough); you need to get further away from, build defenses against and get perspective from an emotional shock (think Path of Least Resistance). You repattern to treat trauma (shift defense patterns which worked at one time but are no longer necessary and can be let go of now) and pattern to treat shock (teach how to defend). In addition, the physiological reactions of shock, which get into self-perpetuating vicious circle, must be interrupted and the lessons learned in the one-trial learning of a shock experience (á la classical conditioning) must be deconditioned.
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While you can do very effective trauma work by yourself, the nature of shock makes it virtually impossible to treat your own shock. In fact, a person must be well resourced before doing shock work. Resourced means a person has (and has access to) the support needed to take this inner journey. Resources are anything that is supportive - including inner strength and resilience, loving friends/family, spiritual faith, and stability (or at least lack of chaos) in everyday life. In fact, resourcing is a major way of treating shock (more on this later).
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To shift beliefs that result from trauma, you need to feel the feelings that gave you that lesson, express them, and discover the truth for yourself. To shift beliefs that result from shock, you need reparenting or reprogramming from outside in order to learn a new truth.
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GENERAL SIGNS OF SHOCK
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Signs of shock in adults include elevated stress hormones (as measured on the Adrenal Stress Index saliva test) as well as the inability to shift or heal:

    * long-standing patterns (productive or not)
    * deep feelings of insecurity
    * unexplained confusion or sensitivity
    * irrational distrust or fear
    * profound grief
    * disconnection from spirit/soul/GodHow people manifest their emotional traumas and shocks depends on their style(s) of recapitulation. Recapitulate means “to repeat in concise form.”
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There are many kinds of recapitulations; all are ways of creating situations that allow a person to continue to deal with unresolved feelings, situations, energy, etc. The first six were formulated by my teacher, William Emerson, Ph.D.; more details are available in some publications currently available through his office. To help you better understand the material on shock, enclosed below is a brief description with examples of the most common styles of recapitulating. There are many types of recapitulation, and each type has several variants; this is just a quick overview of a few of the most common styles.
Direct - Direct recapitulation is directly recreating the dynamics of an earlier shock or trauma. A woman with a strong and overbearing father, who chooses a strong and overbearing husband, is directly recapitulating that experience. She's chosen to try to gain mastery over her painful early experiences by repeating and dealing with the same patterns over and over again.
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Avoidant - An avoidant recapitulator creates events that are directly opposite the dynamics of the earlier experience. So, a boy whose parents were obsessive about safety and cleanliness might purposely become involved in activities which allowed him to take risks and get dirty (rock climbing or rugby would combine both elements) - which would allow him to totally avoid the dynamics of his childhood. Unfortunately, avoidant recapitulators tend to transform a lot of their unresolved traumas into physical problems.
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Identified - In identified recapitulation, the person creates a situation where he/she can take on the role of the traumatizing person. So, a child who grew up with parents who were critical and demanding might become critical and demanding of others.
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Generative - Generative recapitulation involves taking an “educational” or “social activist” approach - to help others avoid the trauma you know so well. So, the person whose parents didn’t observe appropriate boundaries might teach assertiveness classes for teenage girls or women, or create parenting class with special emphasis on respecting boundaries.
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Creative - A person who uses creative repatterning recapitulation will develop ways to “master” the hurtful forces of childhood. For example, a boy whose dad would play with him very roughly and throw him through the air might become a stuntman or pilot - developing the traumatizing experience into a sophisticated skill over which he had control, and which could bring great satisfaction (either through money, or pleasurable experiences, or both).
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Confrontive - Confrontive recapitulators seek out and challenge circumstances, people, events that are identical or similar to those of their childhood; this is similar to identified but without “victimizing” people. A person who was neglected as a child might become hypervigilant to notice and overly aggressive about confronting parents who are in any way neglectful of their children. 
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One additional style that I've identified is called Adoptive or Preemptive. People who use this style of recapitulation will “beat the other person to it” by voluntarily adopting the behaviour that was forced on them. So people whose births were induced and who felt forced to be early, will always be early. This prevents outside circumstances from every “inducing” them again. Or people whose parents were abusive, forcing them to be compliant and meek, will adopt a meek and compliant manner all the time, to “head off” the need of others to be abusive towards them. People who were deprived will need even less, not letting other deprive them because they “don't need it anyway.”X
Different people use different styles of recapitulation and most of us use a combination of styles. It is also possible to use two or more styles of recapitulation for one trauma or shock. For instance, it is possible that the woman with the overbearing father might avoidantly recapitulate in her marriage by choosing a passive husband, use identification recapitulation with co-workers, and take a generative approach by supporting non-profit agencies who rescue children from abusive homes.
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Keep in mind that if people are recapitulating their emotional wounds, regardless of how “productive” they might be, they are still trapped by the energy of those early wounding experiences. Appropriate treatment brings relief from chronic patterns and allows greater flexibility in all areas of life.


Apologies if this is too long, and if it doesn\t speak to you, then disregard it.

Clare

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 12, 2008, 6:36 AM:

 

Clare, Thank you for this post….

Shock versus trauma…. I will read that article again.  
What it brings up is really important.  It relates, I think to fear.  Some events spawn fear—and thusly, the defenses that fear creates, and some events are so utter and stark that fear is no longer useful and neither are defenses…basically, the worst has happen…it is like getting more security for a building that has already been blown up…… you can't be frightened if the worst thing has already happened….There is nothing to be frightened of happening, because it has already happened……it is something different than fear or even vulnerability  that is experienced….It makes sense to me that this is SHOCK, as the article describes….  
Likewise, SHOCK has forced me to that existential dot of who 'I am'…… this is a realm where there are no defenses, and where there is a certain strange and frightening fearlessness.  I know this is an oxymoron: “frightening fearlessness”…but still it seems accurate all the same. 
When everything is blown up, when the tsunami has leveled everything and loved people are forever disappeared, there are no defenses that can make a difference, now or evermore in the 'big picture' what has happened has happened, then there is only the resilience (or not) to resume spinning meaning and relationship with whatever is left in the little picture…..

There is a movie call Fearless with Jeff Bridges, where he survives a plane crash….. and he moves into this realm of fearless, defenselessness, 'am-ness'…. I know this place… it is dysfunctional and sort of psychotic, but in a way that makes perfect sense.

I have the next two weeks off work and a couple of days ago a friend gave me a pamphlet for a workshop specifically on Trauma and PTSD…….it is funny how the universe puts these little tugs in place. 

Your article is very relevant to me.  I did, by the way, find out what happened to the man with head lice……the depth of his own humiliation and childhood trauma is extensive and heartbreaking…. it is for all the people in this community…. and when I consider it now, I suppose all the failed treatments for 'trauma' in this community have not really considered the SHOCK aspect…now it is 'generational Shock'.  Indeed, maybe that is what we are all suffering-'generational shock'….ever since we were cast from the garden at the beginning of human consciousness.. 

Thank you. Jane


  Juliee : heart flow

Re: Straight up premonition

Juliee said Oct 12, 2008, 9:37 AM:

 

Hi Clare

I too felt the 'rightness' of this distinction between trauma and shock and a sense that the descriptions of recapitulations cover the vast majority of the population.
Scary thought that we're all wandering around in this state of unrecognised shock. Which links through to Jane's comment of generational shock.

Juliee

  Clare : Anam Cara

Re: Straight up premonition

Clare said Oct 12, 2008, 9:53 AM:

 

yes, it is scary.  And when we begin to thaw out, and shake off the shock, it can be very painful, but it does put an end to our suffering.

love

Clare

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 12, 2008, 10:16 AM:

 

Well, and perhaps the thing about shock is:  “it can't be shaken off” in the usual way……Nothing is really ever the same again….there is a different kind of healing required.  Shock really is a tsunami of the soul, and every “thing” that provides our usual orientation to being gets leveled.   


It is one thing to work out crappy ways that we got treated by unconscious parents and how we might become more conscious and clarify our own entanglement… 

It is another thing when say, you are crying tears of blood after your precious son hung himself in a tree and was eaten by a bear…..and you don't know if he was dead before he was eaten….or one million billion other stories that are like that and that are unfolding everyday.  This is love in the times of cholera.  This is mass graves in Bosnia.  This is all those children in the C.A.R.E commercial…. This is hurricane season, and earthquakes that bury thousands, mudslide over villages…..This is the greatest die-off of species in 250million years…. 

All that I know about shock  is that it is the worst, and paradoxically, in it, there can be the most amazing gift….. and I would never choose the trauma to receive the gift.  It doesn't work like that.  
Jane 

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 12, 2008, 10:24 AM:

 

Jane, you asked

what is real trauma and what is an event that just is an interesting experience?

I think an event is a real trauma (or shock, in extreme cases) when it shakes up our internal equilibrium, be that physiological, emotional, energetic, etc.  Sometimes that shake-up can happen within our conscious awareness, and sometimes we repress it so that it's happening and affecting us without our awareness.  That said, a lot of things can shake up our equilibrium and are therefore traumas, but we usually only use the word “trauma” in referring to the more severe traumas.  Sometimes in therapeutic circles, there is a distinction made between a small t trauma and a big T Trauma.  But really, trauma is on a continuum, and there's not a sharp distinction where to draw the line.  Of course, if something is truly just an “interesting experience,” it doesn't disturb our equilibrium, but if it does, then it's a trauma, even if it's very mild.  We may choose not to refer to it as “trauma” so as not to inflate it into something that sounds dramatic and huge, but that doesn't mean that it's not.

when is processing 'trauma' actually healing, and when is it a neurotic indulgence about something that needs a stiff upper lip and a steeling of the heart…?

I don't think anything ever needs a stiff upper lip or steeling of the heart – I think those ways of coping are pretty much always harmful.  That said, I get your point about how sometimes “processing” isn't really processing – it's just fueling our narratives/stories about being victim/martyr, etc.  Lauren explained this distinction really well in a previous post where she said

it is possible to be crying and authentically feeling, yet still keeping the experience safely non-transformational by virtue of keeping the focus on the emotion and the personal story that evokes the emotion, rather than letting emotion (and potentially tears, but not necessarily tears) serve the flow of the energies without serving the continual re-creation of the egoic story. In other words, you can cry your way into a deeper contraction of the self-sense, or you can cry as a practice of loosening the bonds of that story.

But I think we have to be careful about using terms like “neurotic indulgence,” which seem to imply a judgment of the person's processing, as if they are bad people or are doing something wrong for which they should be judged.  Sometimes people, in their sincere attempts to process trauma, get caught in these victim stories simply because they don't know any other way to move into and attempt to heal the trauma.  They need kind, gentle redirection to direct their energies into the trauma in a more effective way, such as, for instance, attending to the emotions without becoming identified with them or getting caught in the story.

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 13, 2008, 5:10 AM:

 

Tely, I realize I may be being politically-incorrect in therapeutic terms in the way I am digging at this 'thing'……I am trying to look at my own frustration.  


The term 'steeling of the heart' came from Thomas Moores book(I think) the Care of the Soul.  and it was a term not for 'walling off the heart', but rather strengthening it, giving it mettle and fortitude and endurance….something that goes along with the ability to have increasing raw vulnerability.

In the lives that we have created in this mall-strewn, paved, grid-locked, fast-fooded, pharmaceuticalized  world, there seems to be a lack of opportunity for the authentic work of 'strengthening' ourselves, for learning to bear up, become resourceful, 'suck it up', find out what we are made of, what we really need…..and what really matters.  

I am judging when I use the term 'neurotic indulgence'.  Not judging in a 'good' versus 'bad' manner….but in an 'apples' and 'oranges' manner.    Why is there so much starvation in a land of abundance? 

I am questioning whether the idea that big T and little t trauma are really a continuum…….or whether, there is 'what really happens', and then there is 'what we think, and feel and react to what happens'…..and this distinction differentiates “Pain” from the “Pain of avoiding pain”……

thanks for your thoughts on this.  I am very much a work in progress at the moment. 
Jane




  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 13, 2008, 8:15 AM:

 

Hi, Jane!  Thanx for your honesty.  Just a thought I'd like to share about what you're saying.  Judging (which we all do, myself included) may be a way of creating and perpetuating “the pain of avoiding pain.”  One useful way of working with judgment might be rather than having it be a positionality to hold onto, using it as an entry point to see what pain we're avoiding – what authentic emotional energy/movement we're trying to mask or block using judgment.  I've found this to be very useful, and as reluctant as I sometimes am to give up the “rightness” and protectedness of judgment, I inevitably find that going underneath the judgment to unblock and let the feelings flow gives me much more freedom and flexibility, a more authentic experience of being alive.

Wow – our posts are getting narrower and narrower!  If this discussion goes on long enough, we'll be down to one word per line!

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Straight up premonition

adastra said Oct 13, 2008, 11:31 AM:

 

Lots of stuff coming up for me as I read this thread. The distinction between shock and trauma was useful; reading the descriptions I realize I've experienced both. The shock happened when I learned someone very close to me had committed suicide, which completely blew me apart. It was just like the article posted by Clare described - there were no defenses left. I was destroyed in some sense by that event. A very productive and dangerous growth opportunity which I wouldn't recommend to anyone. :P


As for trauma…yeah, I've had my share of that. The funny thing is, though, for a long time I would often say to myself “What I've experienced is nothing - others have it so much worse, I'm a pathetic self-indulgent piece of shit for wallowing so much in my own little pain.  Why can't I just get the fuck over it?” During that phase I'd be very susceptible to any feedback that - explicitly or implicitly - seemed to amount to “Suck it up and stop your pathetic whining, you neurotic loser,” since that was what I was saying to myself on a regular basis already (along with other negative self-talk). I remember a friend once telling me about a therapist he'd briefly been treated by, who primarily dealt with refugees from some of the hellholes of the world you read about in the news; if you were dealing with run-of-the-mill middle-class first-world issues - rather than, say, having had your entire family raped and killed before your eyes - he had a limited amount of respect and patience for working with you. It would not have been productive for me to work with such a therapist, however helpful he might be for those with real problems.


Eventually I became very close friends with someone whose father had brutally murdered her mother when she was nine years old. Her life wasn't exactly a walk in the park before that event, and afterward it was a lot worse. She's someone who has indisputably gone through a lot of trauma and so when I told her some things about my own life and she told me firmly that I had experienced trauma, and that I should not discount that because other people (like her) had experienced much worse, it was really validating and even a little revelatory.


Which is not to say that there isn't a lot of self-indulgence and lack of perspective in the air these days, in therapeutic settings and on talk-shows etc. But if you perceive that in someone, how do you give them feedback on that - assuming it's appropriate for you to do so - without shaming the person?


spiral out,

Arthur

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 13, 2008, 11:42 AM:

 

I think you meant to say: “she told me firmly that I had experienced trauma, and that I should not discount that”

Liz

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Straight up premonition

adastra said Oct 13, 2008, 12:06 PM:

 

Liz: I think you meant to say: “she told me firmly that I had experienced trauma, and that I should not discount that”

~

Yes - thank you.  I've made the correction.

spirals,
Arthur

  Lauren : mammal

Re: Straight up premonition

Lauren said Oct 11, 2008, 8:41 PM:

 

Liz,

Impressive story. I kind of had that thought “Look how special you are!” too. It's just a natural reaction to an incident of deep knowing and and prescience, I think you might as well feel the coolness of it, along with whatever else you feel.

I'm very glad it wasn't a serious car accident, and that no one suffered bad injuries.

I agree with Tely that crying isn't self-indulgent unless it's contrived, but I don't think it is the only valid response, the only way to set things right internally. Shock, grief, fear… can't they be processed authentically potentially without tears? I think a lot depends on the individual, and a lot on how open you are through the course of a crisis or shock or accident. Also, as Liz pointed to, how bad the crisis actually was.

And this is an aside but relevant to the tangent this discussion is taking – I do think that for those of us who are easy criers it is possible to be crying and authentically feeling, yet still keeping the experience safely non-transformational by virtue of keeping the focus on the emotion and the personal story that evokes the emotion, rather than letting emotion (and potentially tears, but not necessarily tears) serve the flow of the energies without serving the continual re-creation of the egoic story. In other words, you can cry your way into a deeper contraction of the self-sense, or you can cry as a practice of loosening the bonds of that story.

Maybe that discussion is for another thread another time…

Sending love,
Lauren

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 11, 2008, 10:36 PM:

 

Great distinction, Lauren!

  maryw : ponderer

Re: Straight up premonition

maryw said Oct 11, 2008, 10:50 PM:

 

Liz –

Sending hugs!

First dental struggles, then a premonition, then an accident? You're on a roll, girl! I'm grateful you're in one piece.


And thinking about premonitory dreams (and our “specialness” ;) I have them once in a blue moon, but they're usually of the “nice” kind – not warnings about accidents and the like. Sometimes there is a vivid, memorable image in a dream that I will see in waking life weeks or months later.

For example: I had a dream that took me into rich, lush hilly countryside. The hills were peppered with  multicolored, oddly-shaped boulders – they were a pinkish tint with swirls of other colors in them – and these boulders were filled with a pink liquid. I cracked one of the boulders like an egg and washed my face with the liquid, which was a healing, celebratory act.

A few weeks later in waking life I went on a long silent retreat that resulted in deep rest and healing for me. Directly after that I stayed for a few days at a retreat house in Berkeley (wanting to transition back into regular, noisy life). The first thing I noticed when entering my room there was a wall calendar with a striking image of some lush, springtime Berkeley hills at sunrise – including some oddly-shaped, pink boulders with swirls of other colors in them just as I'd seen in my dream. The hills, the boulders, and the sky in that photo were the same images I'd seen in my dream…

Mary

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 12, 2008, 7:44 AM:

 

Thanks, Mary. And Clare, I plan on giving that article more time later. I didn't sleep well last night.


I woke up at 4am, smelling gas! I thought it might not be that, tried to go to sleep, and by 5, I went downstairs and, sure enough, the stove had gone out and one burner was on low. I turned the heat off, knowing I'd have to air out the house before any flames went on.

No, I don't have a death wish. It's just a weird week. I just got up, opened all the windows, and turned on the whole house fan long enough to clear out the house.

Perhaps Lol would like to chime in and let me know what my horoscope says about the universe trying to off me!

Liz

  Juliee : heart flow

Re: Straight up premonition

Juliee said Oct 12, 2008, 9:29 AM:

 

Well, if you believe in the superstition that things come in threes, you've had your lot for the time being.

Juliee

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 12, 2008, 10:58 AM:

 

I want to add one more thing about pain and suffering, shock and trauma, what-have-you:

When you compare one's to another's, nobody wins. There's really no point. We feel what we feel. There's no sense in denying it just because we deem it unworthy.

I've felt “no big deal” after having life-threatening experiences, and I've felt like my world was going to end because of one misplaced kiss. Comparing those things is fruitless.

Liz

  gitanjali : co-creating

Re: Straight up premonition

gitanjali said Oct 12, 2008, 5:45 PM:

 

Liz, I’m just glad you are OK.

Love, G

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 13, 2008, 4:40 AM:

 

It is a thread divergence, the above discussion on shock and trauma and needs its own venue…..but until, I figure out how to make those links work…..


This is the first time that I have actually started to see articulated, or even noticed the need in myself to differentiate “something something”…..I am considering your statement Liz:  ”When you compare one's to another's, nobody wins. There's really no point. We feel what we feel. There's no sense in denying it just because we deem it unworthy.”  
For me, this is not about comparing one person's trauma with another's and thusly trying 'to deny the resulting feelings because they are deemed unworthy'….. It is, I think, about recognizing that there is an order of magnitude involved in some events.  There is that truth:  “the only pain you can avoid is the pain of avoiding pain”.   The pain of avoiding pain, is quite a different animal than the cataclysmic pain that any of us might be trying to avoid, the pain that has actually devastated our lives periodically and the lives of the people around us.
The pain of avoiding pain is the white knuckled grip of fear… it freezes and numbs and paralyses us, keeps us in the mediocre and well-worn pathways of our self-made dungeons.  It is terrible….and lives are caught in a chronic, indolent wasteland, and it spins its own terrible narrative, as evidenced by our present lifestyles.  And there is something which appears so unnecessary about it, such an illusion…it is the pain that we can wake up to, and re-work and de-condition…. there is physiotherapy for the soul available for this kind of pain…..

And Then, there are devastating events for which there is no recovery in that “pain of avoiding pain” sense.— Loss of untold proportion…. 9/11's that forever change  life….the pain is unavoidable…..and it is seering and burning and catastrophic…. and if death does not happen, something else does……….. there has to be a re-birth, into a new reality.  It becomes inevitable.  

In any event, like Gitanjali, Liz I am relieved to that you are making your way through these events. 
Jane



  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 13, 2008, 7:38 AM:

 

The divergence is fine, Jane. I love it when a thread takes off of its own accord.


I have no responses this morning…my whole house smells like smoke from last night's fire, and I have to talk to insurance and car people today.

Yeah, just a small fire. I'm getting use to this near-tragedy, nothing-really bad-is-happening kinda stretch I'm having. Not to make it about me anymore. I'm so done with this stuff.

I have to wash a boatload of smoky laundry from my son's room. The smell wouldn't have been bad if they hadn't taken the burning clothes and stomped them out on the floor. Nasty carpet burning smell is everywhere.

Ho hum. Life as usual.

  Liz : Intersection Princess

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 13, 2008, 3:53 PM:

 

A fire, OMG Liz. What a week you are having.

Lots of great stuff here I want to come back to when I have a bit more time, but I just wanted to say I'm thinking of you.

I've been thinking about you a lot the past day or two, lol I can remember the last time I really cried, it was Summer 2005 and I remember standing in a room feeling angry and lost and upset and you just came over and hugged me. I cried like a baby that day. IT's not something I'm prone to and I remember at the time thinking how safe it felt to be like that with you. That stiff upper lip trembles a bit sometimes.

Tely, I just want to say I wasn't dismissing crying as self indulgence, and if people feel a need to do it and it helps I'm fine with that. I think it's just that my default setting is to think “what can i do that's useful?”, so I feel for me, getting all caught up in the emotion of something doesn't help me.

And Liz, you are so right, its not about comparisons. People feel what they feel and react how they react. And knowing something else is objectively more horrible/tragic/upsetting doesn' help anyone cope with what they have in front of them. One person's experience isn't invalidated because it isn't as huge or terrible as anothers. That would be like saying it's silly to mourn the death of a loved one because babies in Africa die needlessly every day. I don't think any of us can really measue another's subjective experience.

Liz

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 13, 2008, 7:07 PM:

 

“People feel what they feel and react how they react. And knowing something else is objectively more horrible/tragic/upsetting doesn' help anyone cope with what they have in front of them. One person's experience isn't invalidated because it isn't as huge or terrible as anothers. That would be like saying it's silly to mourn the death of a loved one because babies in Africa die needlessly every day. I don't think any of us can really measue another's subjective experience.”


I am continuing to tussle this all around in my head.  I don't think that anything is “invalidated”…. but I am getting clearer and more convinced that there are distinctions to be made all the same.  Probably everyone of us has at least a handful of events in our lives that “wiped us out”….that by nature blew our cover, that overwhelmed every resource that we could muster, and not because our cover was inadequate or that our resources were not solid, but rather the event itself was more than any human framework can withstand and still spin meaning….. For instance, a housefire that takes away all your possessions is one thing…but if your children die in the fire it is something else entirely.   

I guess I am trying to make a distinction between when we are grieving because our fear is heightened by a series of unfortunate events, our sense of safety and control is rattled(all of this is generated by our particular subjective experience), and when are we grieving a tragedy?  For reasons that I am not sure of, this seems really important to me: to stop conflating truly traumatic events with conditioned reactivity that feeds on a sense of crisis.  I think as the essay that Clare posted suggests there is a difference and likewise, there is a different therapeutic response required for each. 
 
Jane(seemingly circling something important)

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 13, 2008, 8:43 PM:

 

Jane, although the mind likes to create dichotomies, I think any sharp distinctions we make in this realm are artificial.  For instance, you ask

when we are grieving because our fear is heightened by a series of unfortunate events, our sense of safety and control is rattled(all of this is generated by our particular subjective experience), and when are we grieving a tragedy?

I think what constitutes “tragedy” is subjective.  In a sense, a tragedy is “when our fear (or grief) is heightened by a series of unfortunate events, our sense of safety and control is rattled (all of this is generated by our particular subjective experience).”  We all have different subjective experiences of what we would call “tragedy,” and this is based in part on having our sense of safety and control rattled (or empathically projecting that experience onto someone else whose circumstances we're observing).

You referred to “conflating truly traumatic events with conditioned reactivity that feeds on a sense of crisis.”  But what constitutes a “truly traumatic” event?  The person's subjective experience?  An observer's subjective determination?  I would say that a trauma is something that disregulates us – emotionally, physiologically, mentally, energetically, relationally, etc.

We can respond to trauma in more effective ways or more ineffective ways.  Ineffective ways might include, on the one end of the spectrum, “conditioned reactivity that feeds on a sense of crisis,” or on the other end of the spectrum, some form of repression/suppression.  Effective ways to deal with trauma include moving into, feeling and releasing the energy of it and/or stepping back and getting a perspective on the event in such a way that we're not identifying with or repressing the emotions, physiological responses, etc. associated with the event.  What you describe as “conditioned reactivity that feeds on a sense of crisis” is simply an ineffective way to deal with a trauma that might amplify the effects of it (for instance, adopting a victim narrative or creating unnecessary interpersonal drama) rather than allowing it to dissipate.  The solution is not to then repress or minimize the impact of the experience, but rather to move out of conditioned reactivity and into more authentic relationship with it, which will then allow the energy of it to dissipate naturally and allow us to integrate the experience in a healthy way.

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 14, 2008, 6:03 PM:

 

Thanks Tely, 

I have an opportunity, if I pull it out of the fire, to travel to Fredricton this weekend to a Trauma Workshop… a guy who does bioenergetics, and something he calls: Trauma Releasing Exercises… supposedly, the exercise are designed to provide trauma recovery assistance to large numbers of people after huge disasters have taken place.  

You write: ” The solution is not to then repress or minimize the impact of the experience, but rather to move out of conditioned reactivity and into more authentic relationship with it, which will then allow the energy of it to dissipate naturally and allow us to integrate the experience in a healthy way.”  
 I guess I am trying to talk about trauma extremus…the kind of trauma that does not allow for a conditioned reactivity, trauma that is so overwhelming that there is no option to minimize the impact of the experience, no option but to have an authentic relationship with it,  the kind that does not dissipate either. a lonely  trauma too, the kind that is almost unspeakable–as if to share it, is to repeat it…..the kind of trauma that war veterans have, holocaust survivors, war-torn children, and witnesses to murders and suicides and any manner of degradation, the trauma of losing those nearest to us……
I have so many stories of this kind of trauma, many of them personal and professional, many too from friends… I am thinking suddenly of one friend who volunteered on a peace keeping mission in Bosnia, and was one of the people unearthing a mass grave of 600 people many children, buried alive…… What does that look like to 'integrate the experience in a healthy way'?!' 
I have a friend who works with war-torn refugee children in NZ and he once described how these children would eat, fight with each other and pray, in a constant state of vigilence and activity…..  What about the little girls who are sex slaves being sold out of India? ( There is an estimated 17,500 of these girls in America according to the news today)…. what is the healthy integration of this kind of traumatic experience? 
I don't expect answers to these questions… they are the sort of questions that need to be 'lived into the answers'…. 
And I am still thinking that there is a difference between what constitute a real tragedy, and what the ego cooks up and hands over to us as a tragedy….red herrings,and clever diversions, a lot of them…and luxuries too.  There is so much of what we are caught up in that simply does not matter.  it is a pity we don't wake up to what matters until often, it is too late….oh, this is a dreary post, on a dreary night, with November coming down the calendar with its ominous history….  
Jane




 


  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Straight up premonition

adastra said Oct 14, 2008, 7:22 PM:

 

What I fascinating and inspiring is that people do live through such extremely traumatic experiences.  I remember a long time ago being inspired by Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Fankl, about his experiences in the Nazi death camps (doesn't get much worse than that, does it?)  From the wikipedia article (Oct. 14, 2008 6:51 p.m.):

Frankl concludes that the meaning of life is found in every moment of living; life never ceases to have meaning, even in suffering and death. In a group therapy session during a mass fast inflicted on the camp's inmates trying to protect an anonymous fellow inmate from fatal retribution by authorities, Frankl offered the thought that for everyone in a dire condition there is someone looking down, a friend, family member, or even God, who would expect not to be disappointed. Frankl concludes from his experience that a prisoner's psychological reactions are not solely the result of the conditions of his life, but also from the freedom of choice he always has even in severe suffering. The inner hold a prisoner has on his spiritual self relies on having a faith in the future, and that once a prisoner loses that faith, he is doomed.
Eve Ensler's Necessary Targets deals with this kind of stuff as well:

In Bosnia, Ensler met women who were forced to deal with the aftermath of war, and it was their stories that inspired her. “It was their community, their holding on to love, their insane humanity in the face of catastrophe, their staggering refusal to have or seek revenge,” Ensler writes, “that fueled me and ultimately moved me to write this play.”

The movie Scared Sacred, made by Velcrow Ripper (seriously) also delves into these territories.  Here is the trailer.  He interview survivors of Hiroshima, Bhopal, the killing fields and other “ground zeros” of the planet.  One interview that stuck out in my mind was with a guy who, as a Cambodian child, was forced to join the army and kill many people.  Since the war he has dedicated his life to finding and defusing land mines.  (Bruce Cockburn has a chilling song about the killing fields - I wish I had an mp3 to link to so you could hear it - called “Postcards from Cambodia.”  The refrain is ”This is too big for anger / its too big for blame / We stumble through history so humanly lame / So I bow down my head / Say a prayer for us all / That we don't fear the spirit /when it comes to call.”)

By the way I just discovered - I mean, like, 30 seconds ago - that Velcrow Ripper has a new movie out called ”Fierce Light” which  details the rise of “compassionate activism.”  (I'm most looking forward to the third movie in this projected trilogy, he said a few years ago he was planning to call ”Evolve or Die.”

spiral out,
Arthur

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 15, 2008, 12:21 AM:

 

I think it is the ego that looks at experience and “cooks up and hands over to us as a tragedy” and also looks at experience and deems it to be not tragedy.  I think we have to be careful with these types of distinction-making, dualistic labels and categorizations, which, regardless of their directionality (“not tragedy” or “tragedy”), are ultimately more about personal (or collective) storytelling than Reality.

Our minds love to create and play with linear, dualistic categories such as “tragedy” or “not tragedy.”  That's fine, and these types of categorizations can be convenient sometimes, but let's not buy into these distinctions as being anything more than a very partial, 2-dimensional rendering of a reality that's far bigger and more inclusive than anything than or minds could conceive of.  So whether we choose to call something a “tragedy” or “not tragedy,” let's not forget that these labels are not a very good rendering of reality – they're just some stories we're playing with.  So with that, let's not hold onto them too tightly.  Because that type of contracting would surely be … um … a tragedy!  ;-)

  Jennifer : Content

Re: Straight up premonition

Jennifer said Oct 15, 2008, 9:31 PM:

 

Just in case anyone was wondering….dinner was still kick-ass, even with the accident and two beers. ; )

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 15, 2008, 9:40 PM:

 

Thanks, Jenn. It might have been because of the two beers.

Liz

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 16, 2008, 1:58 AM:

 

Jen, Maybe that is the most beautiful thing about all of this….that the dinner and the beers were delicious! Thanks for the reminder!

Jane

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 16, 2008, 9:43 AM:

 

I have been considering this thread, even the idea of what a 'premonition' is, and the fact that 'something-something' has really triggered something-something in me. 


I wonder sometimes if a 'premonition' is not a 'prediction' of something that is going on a 'subtle-body' level….and I know, this may seem woo-woo, and start falling into the pre-rational magick realms ….I remember when my mother used to say, “you're cruising for a bruising”….  which of course was a gross body prediction with a clear cause and effect mechanism of carrying out the bruising if the behaviour continued…. Still your premonition is sort of uncanny, Liz….as are all kinds of premonitions…Like your's too Julie about your sister-in-law and the plane crash…. it is perhaps that there is some kind of energy 'rebalancing' that needs to take place and it registers in some kind of brain sensor.  I think this is sort of what Rupert Sheldrake is talking about with respect to morphogenic fields.  

I am still caught up in trying to discern what I think are primary insults, and what then are secondary insults– (the repercussions of what the 'ego' does with the primary insult and that can in themselves especially if they remain unconscious, spawn further primary insults).  I appreciate your resistance Tely to what I am trying to talk about and to the distinctions I am trying to make…..I am similarly resistant, and  i can't tell yet if you have travelled further down this road than me, and can see more clearly, or if I am trying to braille something else out that is new and maybe important..  It is true that 'subjectively' we feel what we feel, and that needs to be addressed.  I still have a sense that when we conflate primary insults with secondary insults because 'subjectively' they are felt the same way,  we might be losing a therapeutic opportunity(as the article that Clare's posted suggests.)

As November approaches, I move into this hyper-vigilant state…. it is filled with the anniversaries of funerals for me, way more than any other month….one death was Boas, (not his real name)… 
He had fallen in love with a girl that was doing a volunteer placement in North West River.  She was leaving the next day, and on Guy Fawkes night we were all at the community bonfire, along with the young people, the volunteer group included all saying goodbye.  Early the next afternoon, Boas was found by a friend of mine hanging from his bedroom ceiling, and being the nearest doctor, I was called immediately from my clinic to come quick, bringing in tow my medical student.  Before anyone else arrived, there were the three of us with Boas's still warm body so close to still being alive, I could palpate his prana and if I was a saint, maybe I could have stuffed it back in his body and performed a miracle….Alas, not,….great sadness…shock through out the community and the school and an ocean of tears. 
I don't remember exactly what Boas's primary insults were….very likely abandonment at a young age by alcoholic parents, and probably also suicide deaths of close friends and family members, and likely the death of one or both of his parents too…. (at this point if anybody does a 'suicide risk' evaluation of any child on the north coast of Labrador, they are high risk like this)…. so the 'secondary insult' in this case was that a girl he was in love with had left town….  and he was experiencing utter, and unbearable pain…… enough so that he ended it the only way he knew how to end it.  And to me, the “tragedy” was not that his sweetie left, it was that he had grown up in the midst of chronic primary tragedy without the support or the resources to have a stiff upper lip when a sadness happened…. He was in shock from a life of chronic unhealed tragedies….as are many, many, many people here.  And indeed, maybe most of us are!  
So, I am still thinking, there is 'what happens' and 'what we interpret subjectively from what happens'….and perhaps these two are so closely enmeshed that they cannot be easily differentiated……but I still sense that they have to be……

In this discussion, I am drenched in my own feelings of helplessness, and of frustration…..  really circling around the challenges of how our ego's spin smokescreens around 'what really matters' and all the tragedies and missed connections that result from this. 

Oh, all thoughts on a grey but lovely day, here in the north.
Jane

 

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 16, 2008, 11:25 PM:

 

Hi, Jane.  In reading this post, I think I'm starting to see where we might converge around this issue (yay – I love it when that happens!), but also where we diverge.

I was trying to understand what you mean but primary and secondary insults, and I think I get it.  Here's how I would describe it in my words.  We can have a trauma, and then on top of that, we can create a story (which can often look like a victim narrative).  The story tends to be fairly dramatic and can certainly talk a lot about feelings, but there's no real resolution, because the feelings aren't actually experienced – they're folded into a story, with good guys, bad guys, tragedies, etc. which allows an intellectual but not experiential awareness of feelings.  It's one step removed from the actual trauma.  If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're calling the primary insult would be the trauma, and what you're calling the secondary insult would be the story we create about the trauma.  The story doesn't lead to resolution, and in fact, it only amplifies and dramatizes our distress.

IMO, the story is a misguided attempt at attending to the trauma, but it's a bit removed by virtue of having the feelings become encased in its narrative, so the person stays stuck.  And people don't do this consciously.  The stories are people's best attempts at processing a wound, but the stories themselves create a defense to actually experiencing the feelings from the wound, thereby blocking resolution even while attempting resolution.

Now, here's where I think you are I diverge.  A couple times in this thread, you've endorsed a “stiff upper lip” as a way of dealing with trauma, and I think a stiff upper  is just one more way of blocking resolution from a trauma.  Blockages to resolving a trauma happen at two seemingly divergent poles.  One is when a person represses/dissociates from their pain (e.g., “a stiff upper lip”).  The energy is blocked and can't run its natural course, then dissipate.  The other pole is when a person identifies with their pain (e.g., creating a victim story).  This too, blocks the energy, so that it can't run its natural course, then dissipate.  Although these seem like two opposite ways of dealing with trauma, what they have in common is that they block the movement of energy – one by taking a rigid “no” position towards it, and one by taking a rigid “yes” position.  Healthier ways of dealing with trauma, as I stated in an earlier post, “include moving into, feeling and releasing the energy of it and/or stepping back and getting a perspective on the event in such a way that we're not identifying with or repressing the emotions, physiological responses, etc. associated with the event.”

If I'm reading you correctly, what you're reacting most strongly to is people creating stories about their trauma, and those stories are not the actual trauma.  But what I'm reacting to about what you're reacting to is that I don't think when we are caught in a story, we should try to develop a “stiff upper lip” to deal with it, since that just adds one more layer of defense/removal from the original trauma, making it even less likely that we'll reach a resolution.  I think that if we just outright invalidate or dismiss these stories, we're missing a valuable opening for healing.  When we're caught in a story, the best thing to do is to use the story as an entry point into looking at what's really trying to be expressed – going underneath the narrative and into the actual experience of the feelings.  Then we can get the energy moving and start the resolution process.

The problem with saying that something is not a “real” trauma or tragedy is that we throw the baby out with the bathwater.  What we can do, instead, is try to discern what is the overlayer of the trauma – the story.  And then, rather than dismissing it, we dive underneath it to the authentic pain that does need our attention.  In this way, rather than fueling our story (the “not trauma” or “secondary insult”), we use it as a guide to understand where we need to enter more deeply and authentically to begin our healing.

  Clare : Anam Cara

Re: Straight up premonition

Clare said Oct 17, 2008, 1:37 AM:

 

Well said Tely,

I couldn't agree with you more!.

Goodness we have such complex and devious minds, which love to take us away from our reality.

Best

Clare

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 17, 2008, 2:30 AM:

 

Tely, We are coming together on this….and you have been beautifully eloquent. We can process primary insults into stories or 'no go zones' with invisible fences all around them, and our stories and our 'no go zones' create their own momentum for how we travel through our lives. 


I also agree about the poorly phrased “stiff upper lip”, which I am not using as a way of saying 'repress your feelings' at all, (don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!) but something else.  There is a quality, resilience is part of it, that we all require to navigate through life, and live open and raw and vulnerably, yet strongly and fiercely even..(the steeling of one's heart as Thomas Moore said,  I will look for his description) …and this quality is developed, I think, by learning to turn to our emotional process in any situation, feeling it through, all of it 'positive and negative' to a place of resolution…..Feeling feelings does not kill us, though telling ourselves stories about these feelings and clinging resolutely to these stories like our life depends on them, OR alternatively, repressing them….well, that can be lethal, and often is.  I think the consequences of these last two patterns are now at full force, rampantly running our whole world into a dismal collision course with our own limits.. We are cruising for a bruising…..  

I really like the Byron Katie work in this regard, but I also feel resistance on some level to her stuff too(though this may be me not interpreting what she is saying)……She (I think) sees all of it as a subjective story that we are telling ourselves, and thus reacting too…. and there is a place where “who would you be without that thought?” does not seem to take us any of deeper into being present with 'the primary insults'.  I met a woman early this year at a workshop, who seemed to have no emotional response about any manner of tragedy, she was so busy “loving what is”……. and quite frankly some things suck big time! 

Thank you for staying with me in this discussion.  I guess as relates to Liz's car accident, for instance, what she needed to process is related to how that incident becomes  a portal for unresolved traumas and their healing, and also it is a portal for exploring 'what a premontion is'.  But then of course, a smushed car is a drag too….
Jane






  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 17, 2008, 6:50 AM:

 

Thomas Moore writes:  “to sustain an ending–a soul death–without the defenses of blame, explanation, or resolution allows the soul to achieve the new level of existence that only initiation offers.”…..”Taking anger deep within, making its qualities of strength and intensity a constant element of character, a steeling of one's heart, constitutes a significant initiation of the soul, one that is necessary for an intimate relationship with another.”   It is in this sense, that I am talking about having the mettle to live consciously through the ups and downs of life with integrity.

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Straight up premonition

adastra said Oct 17, 2008, 8:12 AM:

 

Thomas Moore writes:  “to sustain an ending–a soul death–without the defenses of blame, explanation, or resolution allows the soul to achieve the new level of existence that only initiation offers.”…..”

As I've been reading recent posts in this thread I've been thinking that if you can stay with the pain of unbearable loss or trauma, then it can really “kill” you - not in a physical death sense, but in a “broken open to God” (or What-Really-Matters) sense.  Of course, most people won't be able to stay with that intensity and let it burn them down to the Ground, but if you can, it might unlock the key to everything.

spiral out,
Arthur

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: Straight up premonition

Tely said Oct 17, 2008, 8:19 AM:

 

Yes!

  Juliee : heart flow

Re: Straight up premonition

Juliee said Oct 17, 2008, 1:13 AM:

 

I so appreciate the work the two of you are doing here.

Julie

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 27, 2008, 1:56 PM:

 

This is from my blog. Thought y'all might like to know what happened with my car:

Over a week ago (correction-has it been that long??!! I'm seriously experiencing time compression. It was over two weeks ago), I got in the first real car accident of my life. I've been in a couple of collsions with no damages whatsoever, fender-benders wtithout even a bent fender. And one accident where my rear axle literally fell off my car as I was entering the highway. It had rusted away from the body. Another fun reason to live in the “rust belt”! That was the one where I was certain I was about to die, and walked away from the car in shock, but otherwise completely unhurt.

But this one was more damaging. Some guy just turned left in front of me. Boom, there was nothing I could do. I swerved to try to avoid it, but we slammed into each other anyway. His insurance is paying the bills, and they called me at the end of the week to tell me that my car was not worth the price of fixing it. (Why do cars always get wrecked when you've just bought new tires and put money into them? That car is going to be sitting in a wrecking yard somewhere with all new damn hoses, for fuck's sake.) I think, were it not for needing a new strut, I might have squeaked by and they'd have paid for the repairs. I'll get a check from them at some point when we agree on a price.

The last few days, then, I've been paralyzed with the inabilty to act on this. I suppose the proper reaction is to go into shopping mode and pick out a car that is worth about what I'll be getting for my old car. 

This was my first new car I'd ever bought, and could easily be my last. I'm not unaware that buying a new car isn't exactly cost-effective. But when I bought this one, I'd been throug the wringer with used cars and just wanted something reliable and warranteed. I got all that and more in my Mazda. Dependable, plus really good mileage that never slipped, even when it didn't run as smoothly as a new car anymore. This is the car that took me to all of the events of my life over the past 8 years, including some very long road trips, indeed. And I'll never forget my kids' faces when they no longer had to be embarrassed about the car they were in. After 8 years, it was still a pretty car, with no visible damage to the exterior. She cleaned up nice.

But all is impermanent, and most often, we're surprised by events that rip us apart from our attachments, and this is no different. It feels like it's taking the rest of my psyche awhile to catch up to the replacement car notion. In part, because I haven't really missed having a car as much as you might think. My daughter is in a carpool to get to school. My car was too small to fit all the kids, so I was driving someone else's car for the carpool, anyway. My son walks to school. I took the train to work (after a disastrous attempt with an underpowered scooter which nearly broke my will to live, before I was able to just accept that it wasn't going to complete the three-mile trek). 

The train, however, is too far to be walking in the night, when I get off work. So I really did need some mode of transport that could actually outrun a person.

But, as I said, the paralysis was there. One day I had a reliable and beloved car, the next, I'm supposed to just sit inside a stranger? I think not. So I let go of the idea that I was going to have to buy a new (to me) car and just decided that I could get by without one until the energy was right. I know it sounds goofy, but this works for me on a regular basis. I know that if I try to force the issue, I will end up with the wrong car. 

Enter Digg. Arthur calls to me from his computer and says there's a new scooter out that really fits the bill for me on Digg, and I fell in love with it as soon as I saw the specs. I know that it won't be perfect, but I love it and I'm willing to work out any differences we may have. I'm in this for the long haul, so to speak. Well, for at least 30 miles per charge, anyway.

I bought one today and it's being shipped to me. Once I really have an idea of how much I need a car after that, I can figure out what to do. Meanwhile, when the bad insurance people take away my rental car, I've got wheels.

PS- I called this morning, and it will be here in just a couple of days! Of course, I had to buy new boots to go with the scooter, too…
My new scooter

  Juliee : heart flow

Re: Straight up premonition

Juliee said Oct 30, 2008, 9:50 AM:

 

Red boots?

I am of course assuming you've bought a red scooter because that's the colour in the pretty picture!

Julie x

  Liz : deLizious

Re: Straight up premonition

Liz said Oct 30, 2008, 10:35 AM:

 

Black boots. Yellow helmet…it's all tragically mismatched. But designed for maximum visibility. I rode it around the block this morning. Wow, what a blast! I can't wait to be legal.


But I have a boatload of work to do before I can get to that, so hopefully by Saturday. This picture is fuzzy. Camera on the wrong setting.

Bike 008

Liz

  Juliee : heart flow

Re: Straight up premonition

Juliee said Oct 30, 2008, 10:44 AM:

 

Bootiful!!!!

  Jane : riversong

Re: Straight up premonition

Jane said Oct 30, 2008, 11:57 AM:

 

wow, that is hot!  You're hot!  How fast can you go?

Jane

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: Straight up premonition

adastra said Oct 31, 2008, 12:55 PM:

 

She is, isn't she?

I gave up driving when I moved to Vancouver in the early 1990's, for a variety of reasons including environmental concerns.  Vancouver has an excellent transit system, relatively speaking, so it was pretty easy to do.  Sacramento?  Not so much.  It's been somewhat inconvenient not having a driver's license here (and having let that skill decay for the past 16 years) – but I didn't want to drive again until I had access to a zero-emission vehicle.  Now that we have one, I have no excuse not to study the damn manual, take the test etc.

Once that's taken care of, not only will I feel all virtuous and shit, but I'll also be able to finally do this:

linux user at best buy : from: XKCD.com
(XKCD)

snicker out,
Arthur (the lucky bastard married to the hot biker babe)