Gaia: Romancing the Double - What's Next? Toltec and beyond

Re: Teacher and Student

Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:25:16 GMT

What or who is a Teacher?

Someone who is a slightly more courageous companion on the path of life

What or who is a Student?

Someone who is a slightly more shy companion on the path of life

Who was your first Spiritual Teacher?

Myself

Assuming that two individuals have chosen to formalize their relationship into a Teacher/Student dynamic what are their responsibilties to each other?

Honesty

What is your response to:
I will teach you if you _________ (fill in the blank).

open your heart to me.

What kind of agreements happen between Teacher and Student?

i don't know this one

What are the ramifications of that dynamic?

dunno.

Can we be both at the same moment?

no! i don't believe we can, not at the same moment, well maybe...

i got the first two answers from reading paulo coelho's "The witch of portobello" great book.

Movin' on ...

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:38:17 GMT

Sometimes the answers to my questions come flying out of my mouth - if I'll only hear them. I write to clear my head and actually hear ... this here is a process, incomplete ...

There are a great bunch of folks who work and run the other stores in the strip where the Quantum Shaman™ (the gift store where I work, part time) is located. Over the last several months we've gotten to know each other a bit more than the casual wave, 'hello.' There's a tattoo place with some really interesting characters, an adult/head shop with the enigmatic lady and a "rails" store at the far end run by a woman and her husband. Because of the nature of the shop (the name really gets their attention) people come in asking all kinds of questions. Yesterday, for instance, one of the teenagers looked around and said, "This is all witchy stuff, isn't it?" I looked at the clothing, then picked up one of the faerie statues and looked at her quizically and said, "Uh, not really." People come in with questions about dreams and dreaming, asking how to read Tarot, or what to buy their friend who's pagan (but is a xtrian, so has no idea).

Last night, after I'd closed up and was heading to the car, one of the guys from the tattoo shop stopped me and asked, "Do you know anything about succubus'?" "Uh, a little," I replied, and he launched into some tale about his friend's car being taken over and influencing him and wanted to know where to find an exorcist or what could he do. The words that came flying out of my mouth, I credit to Tesse, "What you know is true." I made a couple of suggestions for shifting the perception around the "possession," but when it was obvious I wasn't getting through, I shrugged my shoulders and moved on.

"What you know is true" reverberated in my head for the next 15 miles of long desert stretch home. Most of which I spent slack-jawed and on autopilot. One of the things I'd asked myself was "what DO I know?" and kept coming up with answers like, "I love my home. I love the life I've carved out. I'm poor. I can't find work. I'm confused about what to do next." And wondered how I shift my perception/AP to know something different. "What you know is true."

"What you know is true." I make and create my reality by knowing its truth. By creating the truth.

What if I didn't know anything? How would life look and feel and be different. To not know anything. There's an essence here to this concept that I don't know (heh, there's that word again) how to put into words. Years ago, at a seminar in personal growth, the presenter showed us a chart:

I know that I know
I know
I think I know
I think I don't know
I know that I don't know
I don't know
What the f*ck, go for it anyway!

This feels a little like that, but more ... profound. To listen between the silence. To surrender to the unknown. To just experience the now.

The question that keeps coming up against all that is ... how do I pay the effing rent? Or do I? Letting go. Surrender to the now.

I wonder.

This a work in progress.

Re: Life as a Mirror

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Fri, 20 Jul 2007 02:49:57 GMT

I'd be interested in knowing what kinds of sparks it set off for you.

Care to share?
Ladee

Re: Life as a Mirror

http://heliosremedy.gaia.com — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:40:22 GMT

that's really a beautiful and interesting thought. you are sparking it for me here.

best of luck with your family and the situations you find yourself in.

The Choices We Make

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:26:46 GMT

Recently my father underwent open heart surgery. This is an excerpt from my journal that I thought might spark some interesting conversation ....
_______________________________

Years ago, I learned that each moment in our lives is some kind of Choice Point. We're making decisions all the time ... do I do this or that? Sometimes, the decision seems minute and unimportant and other times it's a profound, apparent life-changing decision. We are not always aware of how profoundly our decisions can effect others.

My Dad's not perfect. I've been aware of this most of my life (as a kid, I worshiped him). After my Mom died, Dad married one of the women with whom he'd had an affair. At the time, it made a warped kind of sense. He'd confided in me that he'd never been alone, and didn't want to figure out, that late in life, how to do it (he was in his 60's), and here was this woman who claimed to want him, and she was a familiar place to be. Dad rather got the shock of his life when she cut him off from sex right after the marriage, claiming she'd only said she enjoyed it, to win him. Dad, being who he is, didn't take long before he started to stray. To keep her man, my dad's wife took measures .... I won't detail them here ... to assure he didn't succeed. Fast forward thirteen years.

The end result of the steps to ensure my dad's fidelity, created a slowly developed, vast rift between Dad and his kids. By the time he was in the hospital what this looked like was: his wife (I have a very hard time calling her a step-mother) treated all us kids rather like obligatory, secondary citizens. It wasn't until I was in the same hospital room with her and Dad that I really *got* how vast was that gulf between us, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, no need for details, but it ended with us kids having the feeling of being excluded (whether intentionally or not), with very hurt feelings as a bonus. And a couple of very ugly scenes.

All this has caused us siblings to rally 'round each other and support each other in a way we haven't done since our mom's death nearly fifteen years ago. It's pretty amazing to see how we've all set aside some of the differences between us to see the common ground. We've worked through the worst of things and now I/we have a very odd sense of peace over the whole thing. At first, I was concerned that I was "detaching" or being in denial. But, all the feelings are there, just softened by an (almost enforced) acceptance of what is. After we all got through the resentment, the love took over. It's nearly epiphanous.

And, I'm sitting here, looking back and realizing how deeply one choice can impact so many. When my Dad decided to accept the "call" of this woman, he chose her over his children. Even at the time, we all kind of looked at him and said, "Dad! What're you doin'!!??" And because she's a caustic presence (and trust me when I say I'm being polite with that term), most of us pulled away to some extent, and he drifted more toward those people who met a different standard. Okay. His choice. He's allowed to make those kinds of decisions in his life. I don't, for a minute, think he did so consciously, with an awareness of how it would look and feel fifteen years down the road. And, yet, those decisions ended up hurting those he loved. And we, in turn, nearly hurt each other ... very much.

I am VERY proud of his children. We have all chosen to not reciprocate in kind ... instead, we're loving him through this hard time and treating his wife with a deference she doesn't afford us, and if/when he survives this ... and if it still seems worth the effort ... we'll let him in on our epiphanies. That his choice to remain married to her pushed us away - and it hurt. Deeply. And we love him, anyway.

'Course ... he already knows what that feels like, I'm sure. It's not like some of the choices we kids have made, made sense to him ... and he loved us, anyway.

Re: The Mastery of Love

http://haledavid1.gaia.com — Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:40:53 GMT

Well said. Hey hey it's me back from hiatus. Actually I've been popping in and out reading posts on occasion yet not much to say.

I offer validation to what Gypsy Lady said more to help myself remember this very useful reminder.

I often find I start trying to teach when I most need to learn.

Blessings all, David

Re: The Mastery of Love

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:52:35 GMT

Hi, Kira :)

I'm glad that resonated with you! It's always nice to have validation ... though not necessary ... eh?

I'm going to insert a comment here that's not intended for any one person, but as a general comment and one that I think fits in with this conversation.

When I/we post to these discussions, I just want to be clear that I/we should be posting from personal perspective. I'm of the firm conviction that we are all students and teachers together ... what we're sharing are lessons learned and life values based on those experiences. I'd hate for anyone to think that any one of us is preaching ... whether it's "to the choir" (those who are already in agreement) or posing as an expert. I know *I'm* no expert, just someone who's walked this Path for a long time and made some, hopefully, valuable discoveries.

Re: The Mastery of Love

http://masterdreamer22.gaia.com — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:51:33 GMT

Hi Ladee -

I enjoyed your post to the Mastery of Love Pod. Deciphering the difference between words of "buddy" and "friend" was powerful for me. I am going to use it in my life.

So many times we think of a "buddy" as is being intimate and it really isn't that type of relationship. I still enjoy and have a great time with this person. However, sometimes I put a mask on with people to maintain the respect and kindess with myself. A best way to describe it would be that our vibrations no longer match. It is a different type of love. An Agape, if you will.

Thanks for your post. It helped me to reflect.

MasterDreamer

Re: The Mastery of Love

http://masterdreamer22.gaia.com — Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:44:14 GMT

Hi Kira -

I know what you mean about not wanting to change someone. I also began a relationship with no expectaions or assumptions or wishing to change the other person. I continued to reflect with my partner at the time and used it as an opporutinity for myself to grow.

As things have it now, we are no longer together. As I grew through my "stuff" I realized he wasn't reflecting the respect and kindness that I give myself. I am not mad or angry with him anymore. It just didn't work out. We were no longer vibrating together.

Now that I look back at it, I was coming from a broken heart at the beginning of the relationship. I am so happy that I am not vibrating in that space anymore. It was difficult and a very unhappy space. I have a few wounds to heal from this past one, however, what an opportunity to grow! AND, I can find something more beautiful and amazing that matches my new vibration. Thank you for posting that question! It helped me to reflect on where I am.

I also enjoyed and liked the clarification of Friend and Buddy! I am going to use that.

MasterDreamer

Re: The Mastery of Love

http://anna.gaia.com — Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:55:02 GMT

Ah, I should go and re-read the Mastery of Love - always good stuff to be reminded of.

As for trying or not trying to change a partner.....it is indeed a very fine line. I think that knowing what we are willing and able to accept about a person must be something we keep in mind. Accepting some on as he or she is does not mean sacrificing my own deisres or in any way lessening the importance of who I am. Bending and not breaking.

I don't know that 1005 acceptance is acheivable for everyone in the world. There are still too many folks who are unhealthy in some way...murderers, rapists, etc....these people need to be helped.

In the end, to me, it's about opening a loving heart to everything about a person; everything. Not just the parts that we find pleasing, but also the parts that bug us. Acceptance may not be the best word for it. Perhaps tolerant coexistance is better when discussing it on a more global level.

Re: The Mastery of Love

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:10:47 GMT

I have a personal philosophy about intimate relationships, in general, whether I call them friend, lover or partner. First of all, the latter two are founded on the first, and, "friend" has a relatively narrow definition (I wish that the English language allowed for a more focused terminology!) To me, being a Friend means that we are intimate and vulnerable with one another, and one aspect of that is to call each other on our "shit." We all have it ... we get stuck in our belief systems, we get stuck in ruts. A valued Friendship - again, for me - means that when we see that "something" in each other, we each expect the other to call us on the stuff that's getting in the way of our growth.

This doesn't mean I don't have a bunch of people in my life who I would call "buddy" ... someone with whom I can enjoy their company, spend time with and thoroughly revel in each other's company. But, I don't necessarily think of them as Friend ... it's not intimate enough, and I don't necessarily trust them with my most intimate thoughts or feelings. I can (and do) trust my Friends with that kind of vulnerability. I can literally trust them with my life.

In recent years, I've set a clear Intent that those who come across or into my Path are people who provide a mirror for me, and I for them. We each have something to teach the other ... it's a profound way to live.

That said, the even more intimate relationship of lover/partner demands that we encourage each other to reflect one another and give feedback. One critical aspect of this kind of relationship: it requires that we have that specific agreement between us before it can work. Without the agreement that we are each others' mirrors, and have given the other permission to be honest and forthright ... and demanding the best of one another ... our efforts to call the other out is specious, at best, and disasterous at worst.

What matters is how we set our Intent ... if at all. Being clear with ourselves *why* we become involved with someone (anyone) ... be it friend, lover or partner. And, then ... have learning to have no expectations (make no assumptions) of one another.

*smile* ..... it's been a Path that's worked well for me. I encourage folks to give it a try ... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Ladee

Re: The Mastery of Love

Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:51:09 GMT

Hi Kira,

Loved reading The Mastery of Love! Please keep us updated on your thoughts as you read through the book. :)

"...and do you think accepting people as they are is 100% achievable in the real world, or more of a guiding principle that couples work toward and work with?"

My first thoughts on this question are what aspects of yourself do you see in others and what do you attract to yourself? My wife and I were initially attracted to each other through what we believed we had in common and what we believed to be similar paths. The longer we are together - the more we are discoverying who we are as individuals with difference perspectives. It seems that we put our best foot forward at the beginning of our relationship and maybe "stretched it a bit" with believing that we had as much as we thought we had in common with each other.

I'm slooowly learning that it makes more sense to see what bothers me in others as aspects of myself that I haven't come to terms with yet within myself. In this way I can accept other people, including my partner, from a compassionate place. I try not to take anything personal, as don Miguel says, because I see my wife and others as teachers for me from which to learn more about myself. My wife and I have shared this concept with each other and try to incorporate it into our relationship. We've got a ways to go but this agreement between the two of us is something that we can work with.

Peace and love,

Dave

The Mastery of Love

http://creativequesting.gaia.com — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:59:49 GMT

I'm currently halfway through reading The Mastery of Love, and I want to toss something out for discussion -- Ruiz talks about choosing a partner you like as s/he is, not choosing a partner you want to change into someone you like -- "To try to change them to fit what you want them to be is like trying to change a dog for a cat, or a cat for a horse."

In my last relationship, I focused a lot on accepting my partner as he was -- it felt like a much more advanced relationship than the one I had previously, and consequently the lessons were much more advanced -- I knew it was a trap to get into a cycle of wanting to change him, and I brought a lot of awareness about that issue into how I was in the relationship -- I grew a lot from having that be one of my guiding principles -- and -- a couple of difficult things also happened related to that

one thing is that I sometimes focused on accepting him as he was to the point where I didn't speak up for myself at times -- I think that can be a fine line -- I learned a lot from my mistakes and hope to bring more consciousness to my next relationship

the second thing is that regardless of how much I accepted him as he was, he still ended up concluding that I was really trying to change him -- I really wasn't -- but I was encouraging better communication between us and better follow-through as far as our commitment to work on our relationship -- he saw that as me trying to change him, as well as evidence of women in general always trying to change men

I'd be interested to hear from other pod members about how you see this issue and what you see as constituting trying to change a partner vs. not trying to change a partner

and do you think accepting people as they are is 100% achievable in the real world, or more of a guiding principle that couples work toward and work with?

Re: Let's start at the beginning ...

http://MeanGene.gaia.com — Sun, 03 Dec 2006 07:07:52 GMT

Definitely a matter of semantics. Agreements, tools in the warriors arsenal - all the same to me. In Tales of Power or Journey to Ixtlan Don Juan says something like "In my life I've met many people and of those people there were few who would listen to what I might have to say. And of those few there were even less who might act upon what I said; and of those few there were even less who would benefit by those actions." Agreements & tools are all fine, but unless I can & do use them, they're useless.

So right behind using death as an advisor, being personally impeccable in my words & actions was, has been, and is the order of the day. But I use I use all the agreements, all the tools, but probably not enough of the time. Some of those tools are not that easy to use. (Hmm, but then, nobody ever promised me this journey would be easy - in fact, screw easy, a Toltec lives by challenges - and I'm really humble at my great fortune at having found a challenge in life, rather than a burden.
Tall pines & Road signs, Ruthless

Re: Let's start at the beginning ...

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:20:49 GMT

*chuckling* I'm so glad you posted ... As a result of your post I've changed the way the questions in this thread reads ... because this Pod is not about The Four Agreements, it about the Toltec Warrior's Path. And that takes on many flavors and has many teachers.

I'm not sure I'd call "Death as an Advisor" an agreement, though I can see how one might. I'm more inclined to call it one of the tools in my warrior's arsenal, along with recapping and stopping the world, etc. Probably a matter of semantics. I loved reading how observing how it worked in your life evolved. I've never thought to examine, "would I die for this?" I'm not sure it's a required step to learn death's advisories. I tend more to think, "were I to die, at any moment, would I be doing what I'm doing?" To that I can say a resounding, "yes!!"

Ladee

Re: Let's start at the beginning ...

http://MeanGene.gaia.com — Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:46:37 GMT

wherever that may be (the beginning, I mean).
     Personally, by the time I ran into "The 4 Agreements" I had read all the Castaneda books, some Victor Sanchez and a few others.
     So, properly speaking, I have to say that I was introduced to the agreements by Carlos (or Don Juan, if you will).Definitely "Death is an Advisor" is what reeled me in. Oops! That's not one of the four agreements, is it? Or is it? I think its an agreement....
     How did it affect my life? Hmm, that's funny. Kind of dramatically, actually. Imagine asking yourself before most of your acts & decisions: "Am I willing to die for this?" I'm serious, I really did that for along time, and the REAL bummer was that there really wasn't anything I was Willing to die for. Which kind of led to some procrastination on my part. If I'm not willing to die for whatever the decision in front of me is, I'd better do NOTHING.
     How has my understanding of that agreement evolved? What started happening more & more is that I'd come to the conclusion that I had nothing I was willing to die for, but that if I had to die as a result of this or that decision, so be it. SILLY ME, I'd been asking myself the wrong question all this time. Let's try "Am I READY to die for this decision?" Ahh, that's much better. There's a huge difference there, willingness as opposed to readiness. Toltec wisdom is way too life-affirming to make willingness to die an "agreement". Readiness to die is a whole different ballgame. I don't think I can make my life all it can be if I'm not ready to die. For me the bottom line (right now, anyway) is "You're either good at what you do & enjoy it or you're not good at what you do & don't enjoy it. AND LIFE IS SHORT." So when I put a lot of effort into what I do & TRY to make each of my acts my last battle on earth, I 'll expand my life. Simple, huh? In a fight for my life, even an instant counts. Where's the room for boredom? Besides, like I said , life is short, and imagine measuring your life in seconds or instants instead of days or months or years.
     Do I use that agreement regularly? I live with my awareness of death.
Rivers & Rainbows, Ruthless
     P.S.: So when I did run into the four agreement - I enjoyed that book; a different approach to Toltec Wisdom than I'd seen before. I especially enjoyed Don Miguels "Initiation of the Dead Embracing the angel of death"

Re: Teacher and Student

http://teotl.gaia.com — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:19:08 GMT

What or who is a Teacher?

That who brings awareness to others.

What or who is a Student?

That who becomes aware.

Who was your first Spiritual Teacher?

Gurdjieff

Assuming that two individuals have chosen to formalize their relationship into a Teacher/Student dynamic what are their responsibilties to each other?

commitment

What is your response to:

I will teach you if you (commit).

What kind of agreements happen between Teacher and Student?
respect, commitment.

What are the ramifications of that dynamic?

Leaving ego aside, a new teacher.

Can we be both at the same moment? Leaving ego aside; yes

Re: The Fifth Agreement

http://dancingdragon.gaia.com — Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:06:16 GMT

One of the things I learned as a coach is that I can understand a lot about where a person is/what their story is by the questions they ask.

And I so agree with every moment - literally - is what I call a “choice point.

We seem to get closest when I ask, rather than tell can, Me too...

I know that I have nothing to teach anyone. I can only, perhaps, help them to discover.

A question is asking someone else to Tell us what our Truth is.

I don't think Truth can ever be found in a question. When we ask a question we are seeking outside of ourselves and not trusting that we already know.

Re: The Fifth Agreement

http://juliastewart.gaia.com — Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:43:40 GMT

Very profound subject Gypsey Ladee! This is what I love about Don Miguel's work: the emphasis on the "story" and his willingness to call it a lie.

What I've learned as a coach, while listening to my clients tell their stories, is that the human mind seems to be a story-telling machine. Virtually anything it thinks is a story that may or may not be true. Most often, upon close inspection, it appears NOT to be true.

My challenge is to not replace my client's story with another. It may not be possible.

We seem to get closest when I ask, rather than tell, which has led me to wonder: Is the Truth really a question?

Take care, Julia

Re: The Fifth Agreement

http://gypsyladee.gaia.com — Mon, 20 Nov 2006 15:48:33 GMT

I love this ...

it’s a cellular knowing that has nothing to do with belief

and using "intuitive art" to tap into your inner knowing. :)

Have you noticed that, over time, the "checking in" becomes fluid?

When we make choices based on intuitive or inner knowing, rather than based on expectations or implanted belief systems, our entire being and life is changed. We become more secure in ourselves and self-loving becomes an inherent part of our being. Our "center," or Assemblage Point, has changed and our life - and its mirrors - change.

I discovered, years ago, that every moment - literally - is what I call a "choice point." Some moments are subtle choices, and others are quite blatant. Some are distinct Path Choices and others are mundane (do the dishes now or later), but nevertheless choices. It is incredibly freeing and empowering to make choices free from encumbering beliefs and outside influences.

L~