Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

The most difficult time I have ever had in my life was when I had to have my oldest son arrested for molesting my only daughter.

It was also the one time I felt something close to understanding the heart of God.

When I was 23? 24? My first marriage ended in a nasty seperation/divorce. I stayed single for over a year. One day I'd come home and the wife and my three boys, Robert (Bobby) - Zachary & Nicholai were gone. (they were age 3 years, 2 years and Nic was a few months) at the time…

My folks and I looked for them for 9 days before we found them. Turns out she'd been planning it for awhile…

Anyway that aside… fast forward to when I'm 28, 29. I'd been married to Janice - my bridge - the Magdalena for, oh, 3 to 4 years by this time and the Jade is born. Fast forward to 2001 about July / August of that year.

Out of the blue I get a call “I want Bobby (who's 15 years old now) to come and live with you. I can't handle him.” I ask “what's wrong with him?”

She doesn't tell me what the issue really is, just “oh, stealing getting in fights, boy stuff.” I am estatic. I can picture re-bonding with my oldest son, taking him to Church with me, and helping him….

Well, I won't go into details here. Sufice it to say that within 72 hours he'd showed some extremely un-appropriate behaviors towards his sister. The first time we weren't sure if what we 'saw' was really what we saw

So he got the big brother – you're an example of what acceptable male behaviour is to your sister etc…speech and after that what we did see, again, was enough for us to drop him with his aunt in the middle of the night.

We talked with Jade, but didn't realize the full impact of what happened when Janice and I were both at work and Jade's older sister Jatonia (who was 18 or 19 years old at the time) was in the shower….

We were taking the Jade to the public health center for her shots (they are free there) and in the one section they have a waiting room with posters of STD's and we see them and move Jade away, but not before Jade looks at one (desplaying a male member) and she points and says “Oh, look – Bobby”.

The good news is (here in the present) the Jade is fine, healthy & well. Social Workers the Police Detective and her counselors were great. Her dad I think (which of course is me) still has issues…

But as the story unfolded to me, then to her mom and then to the social worker and then the detective and then the counselors – Jade realized that she'd done nothing wrong, that Bobby had done something wrong, she'd fought and prevented penetration and didn't feel any shame, but was mad at Bobby.

My daughter is an incredible child. in speaking with Bobby it was revealed that the reason his mother wanted him to come live with me was because he had a younger sister at home (from where his mother remarried) and had been messing with her, and a baby sitter had messed with him. I asked him if they were going to get him any help? He said why would this time be any different?

Thus I had him arrested, so he'd have court appointed help. He's currently in Juve Jail. And I really don't know anything else.

The Magdalena had been so careful. We weren't even going to have any more children, and then we were blessed with the Jade.

She'd never been in day care, never been with a baby sitter… but because I allowed the predator into my home (my son!!) our years of vigilence counted for naught.

Abuse happens alot more than people think – and more than people are comfortable to know about.

This Book - Mending the Soul is an excellent resource.

From the website:

“It's time for the church to recognize the epidemic scale of abuse. Abuse kills. In its different forms—physical, sexual, verbal, spiritual, or neglectful—abuse deadens the emotions, slays self-worth, cripples the mind, even destroys the body. Its victims are legion.

They live in your neighborhood, play with your children, and attend your church. In the United States

* one in three women will be physically assaulted by an intimate partner.

* around 1.5 million children are abused or neglected annually.

* at least twenty-five percent of girls experience contact sexual abuse.

But there is hope. God delights in mending shattered souls. However, healing doesn't come by ignoring the problem of abuse, minimizing its complexities, or downplaying its devastating impact. Healing comes by fully understanding the nature and ramifications of abuse, and by following a biblical path of restoration that allows God's grace to touch the heart's deep wounds. Mending the Soul sounds the call and leads the charge. Thorough and accessible, here at last is a unique and powerful resource for understanding and healing victims of abuse.”

Seraphim

**********************

The Above was written September 25, 2005. The abuse to the Jade actually happened 2001/2002ish.

Today is August 23, 2006. My mom called me to let me know that a few weeks ago on a Sunday she saw the boys. Bobby now has a girlfriend (and long hair, tattoo's and piercings) Zachary according to my mom and nephew Avery looks just like me.. and Nicholai was there too.

Which is interesting. Because in my reckoning I figured we'd be hearing from or seeing the boys any day now. I confess I've been a poor father to them. When the thing happened with Bobby and Jade – I didn't cope well and I allowed them to just drop off of the radar. I called and left a message with Zach to call me. Hopefully he will and that call will go well enough for me to get the information on the rest of the kids.

I've got Janice telling the Jade that Bobby is no longer in jail. I'm not sure how she will take it.

Also. The thing is. Back when I was getting Bobby to come for a visit. Zach really wanted to come too. I told him he'd get his turn. You have to know that I have agonized so many times and am today, that if I'd have let Zach come he would have stopped Bobby. Or prevented this mess. But I didn't.

Lord Jesus Christ, son of God have mercy on me a sinner.

Seraphim

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Okay.  In trying to contact Zachary, I left a message for him at where he's staying.  He doesn't want anything to do with me.  (another discussion).

He did however, call Bobby who called my nephew and had my nephew call me.  This led to me talking to him several times over the past couple of days.

It also made me do some research.  I started with this book:

Mending the Soul: Understanding and Dealing with Abuse

I've discovered some difficult things. 

Forgiveness and the asking of it by the abuser can actually be in some instances the abuser reabusing – or seeking to assauge guilt to feel better, without them having to do the work of repentance.. (or self work).  I don't have enough data to know what the case is with Bobby.

That most familes protect the abuser rather than the victim.  That most churchs/group don't support the victim but the abusers.  Because they would rather not

a. know
b. acknowledge how widespread abuse is
c. and because they have a wrong understanding of what 'forgiveness' is. (another post)

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

What caused the initial breakup with your first wife? Do you know?

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

He promiscuity.  She gave me std's.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Why did you marry her? And how long did it take to have three kids?

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

I was 19 and thought I was in love.  I later learned she just wanted to 'escape' from Orange, VA.  I was married to her for 6 years.

Not sure what these question have to do with what I'm currently dealing with.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

I personally don't have much confidence in the 'counseling' a kid like your son is likley to get from our criminal justice system. It's usually fairly low quality psychology.
 
So, you could be dealing with this for a long time. In that case, understanding the roots is fairly important. You could also be called on to participate more in your sons counseling process, again, for which, having a good understanding of the roots can be fairly important.

I married and had a child fairly early too. In my case, I and the woman who became my first wife got pregnant, she decided pretty much unilaterally that she was keepng the baby, so we got married. The marrriage didn't work out, but I stayed close by my daughter and helped raise her, as difficult as that was, and fortunately for me she, my daughter, turned out okay.

So I have an awareness of the problems and costs of early marriage and childrearing. But sons tend to be more difficult than daughters.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

before he did his time at hanover juvinile corrections, he was in a group home for 18 months.  and then for 2 years at hanover.  He did daily group and other counseling. 

Also, as an aside, I was a correctional officer for 3 years.  at a local regional jail, a womans max and a mens medium.  Surprizingly enough the counseling they get in Virginia anyway, is top notch with psych and other liscenced professional counselors.

I married when I was 19 and she was 18.  She was basically running from a bad family.  I stayed with her even thru her promiscuity, but when she left with the kids and it was clear she wasn't going to reconcile, I was single for a year and then sought and found my current spouse, who I've been with 15 year and married to for 14.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

What's the situation now? It sounds like this happened a few years back.

Are you happy with the way things turned out? How do you feel about your sons now? How do they feel about you?

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

“Not sure what these question have to do with what I'm currently dealing with.”

Yeah, Bill just kinda gets himself right in there.  ;-)   I have to smile because he's alot like me that way. 

But he is one of the few active mirrors in here.  It's important that we allow ourselves to be looked at.  Turned around.  Measured.  As long as the one doing the looking is immersed in a spirit of compassion and love.  And OSH!*

~Ww







* Oh, So Humble!

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

This is prolly going to be some of the most intense and difficult work for you.  You're being very brave. 

Compassion and solace to you.

The reason people and groups support and protect the abuser is because they so deeply want to be identified as loving, compassionate, understanding, forgiving, etc.  This identifyer is more important for them than the safety of the victim, but they don't realize it.  Because the alternative is so horrific that it just can't be tolerated.  The alternative is that they will have to allow themselves to be identified as a hater, punisher, annihilator, killer, murderer, vicious, angry or even - an abuser.  This is usually a completely Shadowed impulse for a Parent towards a child or a Church member towards another member.  It has been deeply ground into us that those things are simply unacceptable.  It's not so much about not wanting to perform the act, or think the thought, but about being the hated person yourself.  We have practiced huge amounts of hatred about such persons over our lifetimes.  We hate Parents who hate their children, or Church members who hate their own members.  We hate.  And, so the ironic logic trap is that we hate ourselves.  Because we is the enemy.

That's the Shadow. 

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

“We have practiced huge amounts of hatred about such persons over our lifetimes.  We hate Parents who hate their children, or Church members who hate their own members.  We hate.  And, so the ironic logic trap is that we hate ourselves.  Because we is the enemy.

That's the Shadow. ”

Thanks for sharing.  Andrew Vachss is an author and a well known Children's advocate.  Awhile back he was on Oprah and he was expressing to her that she needed to acknowledge and feel the hate, allow her self to be filled with it, before she could really forgive (not condone) and move on.

I think that is another reason why folk side with abusers.  They don't want to acknowledge the evil in themselves.

To do the self same acts as the abuser

or to allow themselves to feel the hatred that wells up in them.

We've allowed ourselves to become tame. Scared of Strong Emotions.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Thanks very much for starting this thread Saraphim. You’re a courageous man with his feet on the ground working in the nitty-gritty guts of the soul.

Blessings,
Kenneth

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

well, thanks to all who commented.  I've not been here much.  Thought I'd come give an update.

I've met with my son twice now (bobby) and have spoken with him.  I text him back and forth, and we both seem to be benefitting from the relationship (and if we weren't we'd still have the relationship).

I have good days and bad days.  On good days I see him as my son.  On bad days as a predator.

I've made some things very clear up front.  That his and my relationship is ours and is distinct and separate from the other parts of my family.

Janice and the Jade are not interested in reconciliation at this time, and that is fine.

He says he understands, and I hope he does.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

You've been on my mind daily for quite a while.  There are so many Shadows that your presence exposes in me and I love you so much and fear this so much.  I wish I had a better grip on it so I could reassure you more.  I feel terrible…   but that's a sure sign.  I am bad for something, and that something must be very, very real.  …it's so dark…

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Whitewave - email me a good time we could chat IM you know?

LYS

Seraphim

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

this stirs up my need to address this very large collective we shadow at the risk of condemnation of the self-righteous. the condemnation of the self-righteous (especially with such a very large shadow) is dangerous, so i feel a need to be very careful.

the savage side of myself that i put in shadow is capable of any horrendous crime that has ever been committed. my namaste sense tells me that put in the same situation as hitler (or in this case bobby), with the same dna programming and the same nurturing and experiences, that i would do the same thing. that's hard to fathom, that i'd point out a relatively helpful segment of the population and decide they all need to die with such a lack of respect. can i open up to the consciousness my savage? is the savage really better off in shadow? can we evolve if we embrace that basest of ourselves?

my solution for my self is to embrace the savage in private. love my beast, acknowledge him/her and honor him/her. and see the wisdom that is hidden in me. and then let my bodymind to decide the appropriate times to share in a we space. and slowly surely the savage gets integrated from out of the shadow.

but i leave my decisions to the bodymind, not the rational mind. the rational mind thinks it understands (or rather it used to, in my case, not anymore, i guess that‘s not entirely true), but the bodymind understands.

and in the we space, i welcome the savage to come out and be safe with me and whoever has intention for it. but we will always be in a cage. what happens to a being who's been in a cage for a million years to be set free? they prolly go back in the cage to feel safe. but each is unique.

predator - i'm hungry for intensity, authenticity and love. but the jailor is afraid, so will project on me his/her shadow, and tell the doctor lies about my intentions. so better play it cool. but then the jailor will project on me his/her shadow, and tell the doctor i'm not getting better because i'm not acting out and processing my pain. i better hide in my cage, until the jailor heals.

jailor - i live in a civilized society, if everyone lets out all the savages will all turn into wild beasts, like in the movie ‘dusk til dawn', anarchy everywhere. i want us to evolve past the savage. damn the savages to hell.

doctor - what's wrong with the savage is this and this and this. the savage is wrong. i took an oath to treat everyone equally, but i don't like savages. so i'll pretend to help them, put them in a circular maze without an exit and drug them up. i'll visit thru a window, and diagnose him with the data from the jailor. that way i can keep my cushy job and people will respect me.

predator - i'll pretend that this is my cushy job, even though i hate it, and i'll pretend that i'm the jailor keeping that savage on the other side of the door in jail. i'll pretend i'm the doctor and diagnose what is wrong with everyone else. i'll have to give lip service to working on myself.

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Jackii,

To the rest I soberly nod, but to this: 

“the savage side of myself that i put in shadow is capable of any horrendous crime that has ever been committed. my namaste sense tells me that put in the same situation as hitler (or in this case bobby), with the same dna programming and the same nurturing and experiences, that i would do the same thing. that's hard to fathom, that i'd point out a relatively helpful segment of the population and decide they all need to die with such a lack of respect. can i open up to the consciousness my savage? is the savage really better off in shadow? can we evolve if we embrace that basest of ourselves?” 

I say nay.  No one must remain prey to the savage will.  Despite our inheritance of DNA and the countless suffering of wounds, and the strictures of astrology, birth station and the rest, there is always choice.  Only the active practice of ignorance protects us from seeing it.  No one proceeds with*out choice.  Hitler made many bad ones, but still there were his choices.  No incarnation is pre-determined, I think.

best,
Michael

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Ooops!

The line “No one proceeds with choice.”  Should have read “No one proceeds without choice.

errr,
Michael

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

I'll fix it for ya, babe.

However, I want to suggest a freudian typo. 

~Ww

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Ww,

Thanks for the fix and a big “heh heh” to you on the freudalinski slippage.  Indeed, I am immune to such charges as you must surely know by now.  I bite my heh heh thumb at you.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Shadow and my Children - Warning Difficult Deep Waters Ahead.

Before our locking of horns gets to be too rough, I want to say that I honor your attempt to keep yourself safe here.  I don't want to put you in the Threat Zone.  We're definitely disagreeing.  And that's totally okay. 

“No one must remain prey to the savage will.  Despite our inheritance of DNA and the countless suffering of wounds, and the strictures of astrology, birth station and the rest, there is always choice.  Only the active practice of ignorance protects us from seeing it.  No one proceeds with*out choice.  Hitler made many bad ones, but still there were his choices.  No incarnation is pre-determined, I think.”

So, with that said, I'm going to say that I don't think you're pickin' up what he's puttin' down.  You've overstated his position.  The Savage, another form of the Predator, is totally necessary for the human being to live.  We must have them.  But not the other way 'round.  And they will have us as long as we repress them.  They have us right where they want us.  Totally blind-sided and weak.  Without learned skill and earned trust, we have no frame of reference for how to utilize and honor their great powers. 

I've spent alot of time looking at what Satanists, Child-molesters and Christian Fundamentalists have to say and why they're saying it.  The Fundies still wig me out more than the rest, but at least I understand it.  The really extreme ones are usually expressing the fear and anger of their Culture's most agreed upon rejected impulse.  They are personifying it, deifying it.  They chanel it and feel totally preyed upon at the gut level and justified to defend it and acquire the protection that they need.  It is strictly an animal instinct of self-protection decorated with the fanciest rationalizations that an adult with a repressive mind can come up with.  If a Culture makes up it's mind to purge itself of injustice, then injustice will be Shadowed.  Guess what rises up out of the garbage heeps. 

Read Nietzsche.  When I first read him, I saw my death.  It was a totally spiritual experience.  I saw the end of much of my identity.  It was over.  I could never think of myself as this idealized being ever again.  I knew that I had dirves and lusts which were not consistent with higher goals, and that they had their own form of righteousness, which needed to be discovered - maybe for the first time.

The rational mind never leaves us when we are integrating.  Integration or embrace is not total surrender to their limited view.  We have the Higher View at the same time that we have the Low Impulse.  And the High View can quite often, find a very suitable place or way to express that impulse that doesn't violate the We Space.  Then everyone is satisfied.  It's like letting the child know that they can have the cookie right after they finish their dinner instead of telling them that they can't have the cookie at all.  Really, it's an inner Group effort. 

And that is how the most effective freedom of choice is obtained.  Repression or rejection is only the illusion of choice.  We're fooling ourselves into thinking that we've beaten the Savage.  But he really just pulls the strings from the attic…   or the basement.  This is not choice.  This is slavery.  Until we see this, I agree with your original statment: “No one proceeds with choice.”

If this is making you really uncomfortable or triggering you in any way, then please, lets stop and talk about that. 

I, myself, feel very triggered by your insistence on choice.  The impulse that is triggered for me is to run away or avoid.  Maybe to try reasoning a little bit before panicking and then punishing.  I don't want to do that, but they are there.  I've included some of their impulse in my efforts because there is some good in them.  But they are not in charge.  I am.  And I couldn't help you without them.  Or myself.

~Ww

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Oh, this is great!!

And once again, I will make my offer to create a closed pod just for this kind of work.  It would be dangerous.  Shit could hit the fan.  But dealing with the “Demonic” is totally necessary!!  This is the most critical and urgent need!!  That's why it's called “Demonic” to begin with!!  I'm using Hal and Sidra Stone's language for it, since they have described just the sort of dynamic that you are talking about.  I'm not trying to force some mythology about demons on anyone.  It's metaphorical.  But since this Shadow is SO dark and we've projected it SO powerfully, there may as well be real demons. 

All we have to do is show the smallest amount of willingness, and we could start something big.  Better to do it in a safe and sacred space than spilling our black blood out here, get crucified by the general public and make the problem even worse.  Yes?  No?

Oh, fuck it.  I'm doin' it.  Your dialog at the bottom is great and needs more room to expand.  Sacred Space.  I've been writing letters to my b/f in rehab that contain the most profoundly primative dialog that I've ever achieved.  We are such gigantic creatures, we humans.  We need to manage our hugeness with more skill. 

This pod will be invitation or accepted application only.  As membership increases, so will the size of the group that reviews the applications.  It will be truly, a We Space. 

Blessings.

~Ww

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As a young person, I was enchanted by Jungian analysis and vowed to make a career in this field. As I grew older, I realized that humans had not tackled basic planetary survival problems (Maslow), resulting in the creation of much sufferiing and unhappiness. I concluded that psychoanalysis is a luxury that has done little or nothing to change the world in the last hundred years.
People can change and be happy, but only if we help one another, and the best ways are
simple and practical. The most practical way I know to fix the mind and spirit is good nutrition - not labelling “demonic” something that may be a deficiency of a mineral, a fatty acid, or a vitamin.
For more information on how nutrition affects the mind and behavior, go here:
http://nutritional-healing.com.au

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Very provocative, Tigana.  Be careful. 

Since I am all for integrating everything that works, I have no beef with your contributions of nutrition and other external events, tho they properly belong in the Right Quadrants and should be posted there.  But please don't confuse vitamin deficiency induced brain damage with developmental immaturity.  They both exist.  Both have to be dealt with with skill and maturity. 

Shadow Work and other such internal events are, indeed, luxuries of the Rich and Neurotic.  And that we are.  But the Rich and Neurotic are causing destruction on this planet on the largest scale, and if we don't figure out a way to get our marbles in order, we're going to squash all those poor little starving people like bugs.  That's not a threat.  It's a disaster.  If you don't want to do Shadow Work, then don't.  I'll give you some time to decide.  If you decide to opt out, then I'll respect that and post your link in the Right Quadrant side of things. 

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WW wrote,
“don't confuse vitamin deficiency induced brain damage with developmental immaturity. They both exist. Both have to be dealt with with skill and maturity.”

Thank you for your response, WW. I'm glad you see the implications of nutritional information, and will apply it.

When you look at the information at
http://nutritional-healing.com.au/
particularly pyroluria, histadelia and histapenia, you will find simple explanations for the science behind criminal behaviour and maladjustment - from Charles Manson to Emily Dickinson.

You wrote,
“the Rich and Neurotic are causing destruction on this planet on the largest scale, and if we don't figure out a way to get our marbles in order, we're going to squash all those poor little starving people like bugs”

There is one way to ensure that the world is a better happier place, if anyone cares to try it - and that is to stop looking at theory, push away from the keyboard and go out and FIX the world.

Best wishes,
t

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Ww,

I am all for whatever it takes to roll it out.  I know the daemonic, and the demonic in me yearn for complete expression.  If you think that “we” can be protected by a invite-only pod then go for it.  I could give a shit what people think about my insides.  My concerns for them can only be repressed if I give in to my look-good persona.

Jackii, please know that I do not seek to repress the savage son of the predator.  Its just that I do believe it has little place in this woebegone theatre of the present.  Still it needs to be trotted on occasion.  I know ways to do that that work for me.  I am interested in how you might safely express yours.  OK?

Ww, you audacious adventurer, I hope your trials end with rich blessing.

Best,
Michael

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Beloved friend,

It's a done deal.  I've noticed that it didn't appear on the general pods page because it is private.  So, there won't be any obvious publicity.  This is good.  But it did show up on the last page of a pod search on Shadow.  That's fine.  It included the begining of the description which is a redirect to come here.  That will be most excellent.

WOOT!

~Ww

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Ww dear,

Let me get this straight.  Are we private now?  The whole pod?  I am open to letting 'er rip a little.  Like I said, I am not particularly concerned for myself, and I doubt that anything I would say here will ever negatively impact my loved ones - my only real concern, but, I do have concern for others who do not share my don't-give-a-shit sensibility.  I think you know what I mean here.  If I let fly, others may be encouraged to do the same (good) without considering that, no matter how “private” the pod might be, it is still vulnerable to trolling. 

A little guidance is requested.  Your experience and diligence will be critical to the establishment of these limits - not rules of course, as those are inherently inhibiting, but strong, reinforced guidlines that we can all adhere to and restate as necessary even when you are not around to, er, supervise.

I am open to a discussion of what those guidelines might be.  You lead, I will follow with my considerations and opinions.

Further,
Michael

PS, we may want to do this on another thread.  Your call.

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Ww,

All love, support, patience.

M.

PLEASE POST ABOUT THE NEW POD IN THE NEW SECTION !

PLEASE POST ABOUT THE NEW POD IN THE NEW SECTION ABOUT GOING DEEPER.

Crap Weasel!!

I can't do it without moving the entire thread.  All or nothing.  Well, lets see if we can get folks to just stop posting about the new pod on this thread.  That top line in all caps will be the only thing people see when they see the new post.  I hope it works. 

I'm sorry for muddying up this thread, Seraphim.  Your dilemma deserves a less chaotic space. 

Everyone please try and stay on topic. 

Me too!

~Ww