Right and Wrong

I've been having trouble with this for a while.  Can you please start a thread discussing ideas about right and wrong and where to draw the lines if you know what I mean.  Thanks!

-Kevin

Re: Right and Wrong

Kevin:  

Good to hear from you. Looks like you already started the thread. What do you think? Where is the line drawn?   What kind of trouble have you been having with this?

Bob

Re: Right and Wrong

HHDL has a quote about this that I paraphrase here:
If the end result is happiness it is good.
If the end result is sadness than it is not good (bad).

I'll bet one of the masters of the internet here can get the “real” quote.

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Alright, so I don't know how it happened, or when it happened, but I could guess that it probably happened over a long period of time while I was being raised and that it happened because one or both of my parents see things this way and also because society seems to view things in this way as well…

I am talking about seeing things through a moral filter.  Like a filter on a camera, except it is on your perception.  IT makes the world appear in black and whites.  With this filter on, every situation has a right and a wrong.  A few examples: drug use is either right or wrong, getting a college education is either right or wrong, missing class is either right or wrong, etc. etc. 

Like I said I have been seeing a good therapist for three years now and I have pretty much completely removed this moral filter in regards to what other people do, but in regards to what I do, that filter is holding strong.

Now, I am a big advocate of protecting human rights.  I am a big advocate of non-violence.  But can I call violence wrong?  Can I call torture wrong?  This is where I am having a problem now.  Because there are always reasons for violence, I mean deep psychological reasons. So I can forgive anyone.  People say “well you surely can't forgive hitler!”  Why not? Living in this world is so hard; it is so hard to get past ego; it is so hard to get past fear; it is so hard to get past hate, isn't it understandable when people can't?  I think it is.

I suppose that there are universal rights and wrongs.  Like what Hitler did was wrong, but can I judge him?  Can I judge myself?  Can We judge each other if we are all made from god?  God does not judge.  So, it gets really complicated as you can see.  On the grander scale no one can be judged because we are all the same in terms of what we are made of.

But then I have to remember that I am human; that right now I am not on the other side where there is no hate and no violence.  I am on earth (apparently the most violent planet in the universe).  And I cannot raise myself to above human status because if I do that then I can forgive every one and every thing and then I will not be bringing something positive to the table, I will just be bringing nothing to the table and I will withdraw into myself.

Okay, okay, slow down…  So, on a spiritual level I can forgive everyone, but on a psychological(human) level I still can support putting murderers in prison and I still can say that torture is wrong, although in some cases torture could save lives, you know sacrificing one life for the greater good or whatever.

So it comes down to this question that I keep asking myself.  How should I be?  How should I live?  How should I do things?  I think I have realized the answer in a limited way, but I have not understood it on a deeper level.  I think the answer to “how should I be” is, however I want to be.  But a lot of times problems arise in this world because people do what they want and not what is best for everyone.  I think this is because they are not self aware enough to know what they truly want.  And when a person is self aware enough to know what they truly want then the person understands that what we all truly want is the same thing.

So I guess I agree in a way with what hahayana said, except I would change it to say that if the end result is love then it is what is in the best interest of humanity and if the end result is hate then it is what is NOT in the best interest of humanity.

So, what is my conclusion??? hahahaha.  oh man. 

Overall, there is no right and wrong.  There is only what is in our best interest and what is not in our best interest.  Everything that leads to love is in our best interest and everything that leads to hate is NOT in our best interest.

So when I argue against torture from now on I will not say it is wrong.  I will say that it would be in the best interest of all human beings if no one were to be tortured. 

If we can stand before the barrel of a gun and tell the person holding it that we forgive them and love them (AND MEAN IT), then it doesn't matter what the outcome of that situation is.  Is it wrong to kill…  no I suppose I can't say that, but it would be in our own best interest not to.

I think that is my conclusion…  Thank you Bob for asking me to think harder about my own question instead of me waiting to think harder about your answers.  I feel that an understanding has been reached.

I would however like to hear everyones' thoughts on what I have written.


Love Kevin

Re: Right and Wrong

Kevin:  

Always good to hear from you! Yes, much of the world is used to looking at things through a moral filter. In Western countries the moral filter is shaped by a Judeo-Christian perspective and fueled by the mass media. So, without giving it a thought and supported by a mass society mind set it is logical that we develop moral filters. Yet as we see in politics those moral filters are far from absolute.  

Like I said I have been seeing a good therapist for three years now and I have pretty much completely removed this moral filter in regards to what other people do, but in regards to what I do, that filter is holding strong.

You are half way there. We all judge others and their actions but learning to let others live can be beneficial. Yet, on rare occasions when you can help others see how their actions are unbeneficial to them. But before you go wading into other's suffering apply that old Davey Crockett wisdom: “Be sure you're right then go ahead.” The inverse of this is Suzuki Roshi wisdom: “If you feel you want to do something, (something good that Kevin has to offer the world) something as small as picking up a speck of dust, you should know unequivocally, it is going to cause a myriad of problems. Don't fool yourself. Be fully prepared to pick up all of the suffering of the world with that speck of dust.”  

Now, I am a big advocate of protecting human rights.  I am a big advocate of non-violence.
 
Possibly try: I respect others, and am non-violent.   

So I can forgive anyone.  

Now this is what Buddhist's call compassion. Many Buddhists claim universal compassion except for George Bush or Don Rumsfeld. You are on the right path.  

Can I call torture wrong?   

Do you need to? Ah, when you are young you think you need to have all these positions, opinions and stands. How about I will torture no one? Do you think your arguments will alter the CIA in Afghanistan?  

I think the answer to “how should I be” is, however I want to be.   

As long as you want your actions to be beneficial. Beneficial to yourself and the universe.  

Overall, there is no right and wrong.  There is only what is in our AND OTHERS best interest and what is not in our AND OTHERS best interest.  Everything that leads to love is in our AND OTHERS best interest and everything that leads to hate is NOT in our AND OTHERS best interest.  

So when I argue against torture from now on I will not say it is wrong.   

What is to be gained from arguing? The universal end of all debate are the words: “Possibly so.” It acknowledges that just possibly we may not have all the answers.  

What say you?  

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.   

Your friend, 
wishing you a small tranquil day,
Bob 

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The only thing that I'm not sure about in all of what you said is in regards to arguing.  I suppose it would be best not to call it arguing.  I like to think of it as graceful suggestion.  So it isn't really coming out of anger, but it is implanting a new idea into the person's mind and maybe they will consider that idea and allow it to grow into a belief or maybe not.  But the point of doing that I guess is not to stop what is happening now but to prevent it from happening in the future.  If enough people consider the idea that torture is not in the best interest of humanity then that could lead to the end of it, don't you think?

Over time my “arguments” could alter the CIA in afghanistan because, like I said before my own ideas could be considered by others and then they could grow into beliefs and then those people who considered my ideas could spread those ideas to more people and so on.  And eventually if enough people adopt those ideas as their own then enough people would be standing up against torture and things of that nature so as to stop it as much as is possible.

Thank you again for helping me “fine tune” my ideas.

Kevin

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Possibly so.

Your friend,
Bob

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hahahaha, point taken. =)

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HeyHey Kevin,
It's ok to think and think and think about all kinds of stuff- the list is endless.  You could sit all day and just think and get pissed off at everybody for murder, famine, poverty, torture, war, greed, high interest rates, unemployment, no healthcare, Iraq, Ruwanda, Bush, Brownie, Rumselfd (my personal Favourite heeehee!)   So what? NOW WHAT?

What are you going TO DO about it?  What ACTION are you going to take?  Are you just interested  in telling people about all your ideas about how awful “things” are?  I can tell that you ou feel strongly about these things, but are you DOING anything about them, except wringing your hands and getting mad because others don't FEEL or THINK the way you do?  Maybe you could  align yourself with many groups of people who are actually taking some ACTION?  You can find many, many groups working to alleviate the WRONGS  of the world.

My Buddhist teacher advised me to give up opinions and strongly held ideas - especially those about WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD DO OR THINK..  Why should anyone else ACT better than you do? 

Tim to get up off the couch, take off your thinking cap, and hit the pavement.  You evidently feel strongly, so you have all the goods to get out there and be a shining example of what you
 believe in.  Will your star shine bright?  or will you just think up stuff and get mad at everyone else.  Use all that energy wisely!

I wish you good luck and that you will find peace in your decisions for yourself.
namaste,
mimi

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Ah Mimi, you rare and delicate flower. There is no end to this kind of suffering. Better to clean your bathroom, do the dishes, and tend to the lawn. Concrete things that will change the world.

You know I love you.
Wishing you a small day.
Your friend,
Bob

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i believe that sharing ideas is doing something very productive.  Right now I am a college student and most of my time is devoted to my studies and to working so that I can afford to stay in school.  So for the time being I can only do what I can do.  In the future I for sure plan on DOING many things, but right now I am learning things that need to be learned and getting my degree so that I can get to where I want to be and be in the best position possible to accomplish positive things. 

I agree that sitting around and getting mad about things doesn't do anything.  But getting OUT THERE and sharing IDEAS is DOING something amazing.  And that is what I intend to do.  But first I must understand things that I don't understand so that I can spread truth instead of nonsense.  And sometimes that does take a bit of sitting and thinking; not getting mad, just sitting and thinking and asking others what they think.

The action will come with time.  I surely cannot act upon things I do not understand.

As for the things I already understand; I will and do act upon those.  I much appreciate your words of wisdom. =)

Love Kevin

Re: Right and Wrong

Hey Kevin,
   I can tell you want to do the right thing (whatever that is in your own mind).  Think if you must – or if you  like the mental gymnatics. Do you know that Buddhists like to sit real still and still their minds?  In the silence, you get  serenity and clarity.  Maybe you'll try it sometime.  Maybe not.

Me, I am going to take my good friend Bob's advice, and I am going to wash my dishes before the clock strikes midnight.  Bob knows what he is talking about, so I listen.  He always points me in the right direction and saves me a lot of self-inflicted suffering.

May you   find serenity  and clarity in your life
Breathe, breathe, breathe
namaste _^_
mimi

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taking both of your advice, I had a nice, small meditation tonight and it did save me from much uneeded suffering.  I still think some things deserve thinking about, it is just important to know when to clear my mind and let be what is. =)

Love Kevin

Re: Right and Wrong

I have learned a lot today about right and wrong and I am beggining to understand your points more clearly…

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I think this little bit of wisdom received in my e-mail today  fits in here–

“Little by little a person becomes evil, as a water pot is filled by drops of water…
Little by little a person becoms good, as a water pot is filled by drops of water.”

~Buddha~ (563-483BC)
Source: The Dhammapada

Be good/do good.  What to do? Do what benefits ALL - that would be the Right thing.

namaste
mimi

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I feel every person has a natural place in the ecology of things.  The question is, What is natural for us at any given time and stage? We can become forced or we can go with the flow.

I got a feel for this by talking to Eveleen. I once asked her about a certain social activist. She said, “I let others do that.  I work with the individual. That is where I can make change - in the trenches. ”
For each of us, a natural place is awaiting. Also, that place can change.

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Sean, I love how you encapsulate wisdom!

Love,

Nicole

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“I don't know what I may seem to the world. But as to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than the ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.”

Isaac Newton

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You are NICE, Nicole!  :O)

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How do I know what benefits all?

I mean, I think I have a good idea of what benefits all, but there are certain issues where I am not sure.

I suppose trying to do what benefits all is the best anyone can do….

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I once learned a Theravada prayer. It starts out, “May you be happy, healthy, comfortable, and successful!” It goes on from there, eventually including all being, substantial and insubstantial, known and unknown, seen and unseen within the universe and beyond.

So … to me, what benefits all is realizing and helping with what makes those we encounter happy, healthy, comfortable, and successful. Thinking about these four “things,” they are all interrelated and really one “thing.” Also, interrelating this way, we are one non-thing with the non-thing we interrelate with. laughing inside

Doing the best we can, we evolve, actually becoming better at right action and right thinking - helping sentient beings to be more happy, healthy, comfortable, and successful.

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thank you sean. =)

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Always good to hear from you Kevin:  

Sometimes you have to let others suffer. No one has figured out how to make both the Palestinians and the Israelis happy at the same time. At least on a National Scale the same is true of the Democrats and Republicans, liberals versus conservatives. In a world of ignorance most people cling desperately to their suffering. Clinging to ideas creates suffering.  

Going back to your original question, how is one to know what benefits all? Realizing that most live in a polarized world embracing a spectrum of right and wrong how can actions benefit all? One of the world's problems is that too many people think they know what's best for others. Then they think they know what's best for all others.  

Some times no action, do no harm, is the best action, and creates the most beneficial karma.  

Did you ever hear those talk shows where they get four or more people of differing views and they all start to argue and yell at the same time. Each knows what is best from their limited view. And nothing is accomplished and no one changes. They all go away angry and suffering. If you try to change them they will suffer and you will suffer.  

Getting people to take responsibility for their own karma would be a good first step. but in the mass universe that is too big of task. It takes you right back to the Palestinians and Israelis.
 
So possibly in one small corner of the world you can shine it. One small step at a time. This is something you can do. It is something I can do. It is something we all can do.

Wishing you a small tranquil day,
Bob

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There is a Taoist saying: Wei wu wei!
The action of no action.

Some times no action, do no harm, is the best action, and creates the most beneficial karma.
Bob, you are so right

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—–And I just read part of an oath I took long ago….”do no harm”.  This may seem off in left field to many, but I hope that when I did choose  that it was “better to do nothing” at that particular time and this is loosely phrased, when I say, not to do anything on certain levels of being invasive or as trial and error.  Was no harm was done as I promised.  There is much truth with what Hamilton quoted, and I still find myself at times quesioning me. Did I do no harm?   This resonates to the core of me to this day and to the “DUDE”,  in that one statement, it does at times “make it hard to maintain my will to be groovy”. 

Namaste— to your insight and what you said.  You could have been speaking to me of the me that was.

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not too long ago I would have thought, “no action isn't an action!” haha.  But I have recently begun to understand that choosing to perform no action can be more beneficial than any other action in many circumstances…

thank you Bob.


Love Kevin

Re: Right and Wrong

Brother to brother, helping each other.

Sisters too, with a hand out for you.

When the time is right, help if you might.

but as Davey Crockett said:

“Be sure you're right, then go ahead.”

Love,
Bob

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=)

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if there is no right or wrong and there is only what is in everyone's best interest and what is not in everyone's best interest, what is meant by “right thought” and “right action?”

Does that mean psychologically healthy thought/action? or thinking and acting from our centers??

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I believe it does.

However, I really feel there is right and wrong on various levels.

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yes-I agree there is right and wrong -just as there is black and white.

What is wrong for some, maybe right for other's -but there is a basic
principle of defining what is wrong-
anything that is unjust, cruel, vindictive or violent is wrong.

Right is goodness, compassion, understanding and forgiveness-
to name but a few.

I think it is best to apply the principle -
“do unto other's as you would have them do to you”

S

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thank you thank you!