Beginning Again ...

I’m almost always for starting at the beginning so given that I’ve proposed and begun a pod here on zaadz about Social Influence I’ll start with what I think are some basic precepts:

A philosophical position that you could take about anything “social” might be: “You don’t see the world as IT IS, you see the world as YOU ARE.”

I prefer Humberto Maturana’s statement more, “What we see we see, what we don’t see doesn’t exist.”

Simply put we’re incapable of perceiving what we don’t already have filters built-in or built-up to perceive … so for us it doesn’t exist … fulll stop!

What we notice when stuff happens to and/or for us equals what for us exists. Learning to recognize what we’re perceiving and experiencing becomes another way to know something about what may be going on that we haven’t yet built the framework for knowing about in any other way.

Truly, the directive “Know Thy Self” must be the first rule of effectively coming to know our world and those around us better. To become more effective socially we must first come to an awareness of how we respond to others and what they do.

When I work with clients I make it a priority for them to become aware in stages … and very early on I begin to work towards helping them to become aware of their responses to what they experience. Only then do I believe does it become possible for us to begin to recognize our impact and effect on others.

So what I’m saying lives at the heart and start of becoming more effective socially must be coming to know yourself first and foremost.

Best regards,

Joseph

Re: Beginning Again ...

Joseph,

An enjoyable and inspiring read, as usual: thank you.  And thank you for creating this space.

I keep returning to one part of what you wrote in this post:

<snip>

When I work with clients I make it a priority for them to become aware in stages …

<snip>



When you write, “in stages” what do you mean?  Are these literal and specific?

Also, I like the double entendre implicit in Work.

On this thread, I like the idea of considering the containers we commonly accept when we consider what it means to know oneself.  By containers I mean the ways we reference  the state of being self aware and (mythologies and language) and the basic assumptions, i.e. what it means to “know.”

Now, in my best Ru Paul, ”Work!”


Kiela

Re: Beginning Again ...

Joseph,

An enjoyable and inspiring read, as usual: thank you.  And thank you for creating this space.

I keep returning to one part of what you wrote in this post:

<snip>

When I work with clients I make it a priority for them to become aware in stages …

<snip>



When you write, “in stages” what do you mean?  Are these literal and specific?

Also, I like the double entendre implicit in Work.


Kiela

Re: Beginning Again ...

Kiela,

Yep … I do mean in stages literally … and yes they do tend to be specific as well.

In the simplest possible terms:

This list represents a really fast, really down and dirty way of laying out the stages I work through with my clients. Simply, I find that awareness unfolds in stages from the outside in and then back out again. I also find that many people get stuck in the internal stage of awareness (number 2 above) … and stay there way too long.

From my point of view the world out here exists for a reason, in part I think that world exists for us to have our experience in it … not to spend years of our life finding ways to escape it. I know this goes against what I’d call some naive beliefs about meditative and comtemplative paths (I think a more mature position about these paths leads back out into the world). We live as embodied beings … everything about us suggests that we are embodied, including the way we think … even our mind seems to be embodied. Therefore it seems to me that we ought to learn how to have the most aware embodied experince we possibly can … just my simple opinion of course.

What do you think?

Joseph

Re: Beginning Again ...

Hi Joseph,

I have to be brief on this occasion, but thought I would just add a quick note to say hi and add a comment or two before attending to less interesting matters - taxes! 

“meditative and comtemplative paths”

I have to say TM has never atracted me but meditation has - in the sense that my understanding of the meaning of the word is “observation” - so in a sense the challenge is to be ever observant, and self observant at that.

Coming from a corprate, and recently a training background , for me three of the key factors missing in education and training are (1) the first, most important, and generally absent  “competency” (as organisations seem to focus on these things) is Personal “Response - Ability”, - to develop the capacity to respond consciously (2) Critically, little appears to be discussed, expressed or taught about the immense power and purpose of ” Natural Paradox” - the contrasts and apparent conflicts or issues that exist in order for us to decide what really matters and (3) the fact that in achieving maximum impact in positive social development - of utmost importance is the concept that “I come first”, not the recipient, the charity, the community - not anyone other than you - yourself.

cheers,

Pete

Re: Beginning Again ...

Peter,

I’d add that observation is different from awareness, not less valuable but different.

Observation implies remaining at a certain remote distance … physically, intellectually, emotionally, even temporally … and for many folks non-involvement as well.

I make the majority of my living consulting and training professionally (sometime teaching, writing and speaking). It is far too common to have people who want something to happen … typically a change of some sort, often requiring themselves to change in the process, i.e.: doing/being something other than how it/they are now … to sit back and claim they either first want to observe, or simply observe period.

Awareness on the other hand if nothing else almost always implies either the act or at the least the desire to become present to what is unfolding … in real time.

Many forms of meditation are designed to lead to awareness … going beyond simple observation … “Oh I perceive this/that is happening.” to a postiong where the meditator goes into a state of awareness about what is happening … “Oh I am experiencing this/that happening.”

In some forms of meditation the idea … “I am experiencing this/that and it simply “IS” without meaning … “IT” is only “I” that am experiencing.. … may also be part of the practice. But let’s not get to esoteric for now.

A lot of the work I do has to do wiht getting the folks I work with to become and remain aware with eyes fully open … and remaining present to the world.

What we can agree about wholeheartedly would be that respond-ability has enormous value in leading a life well lived!

Joseph

Re: Beginning Again ...

Hi Joseph,

I was not sure where I should post this, so I chose here, being the last point of discussion. You said (somewhere):

 One of the things that most intrigues me are how people and groups transform … letting go of old patterns and adopting new ones. It seems to me that this requires a willingness to question everything … even those things you “know to be true.” When a person can set themselves free to see what they have not seen before, they remain open to the path of personal transformation and become the harbingers for social transformation as well.

I agree with your comments but I suspect this is only one half of the story.

In the current global society ‘mind' has been allowed to become dominant within both individual and the collective belief systems. If insufficient numbers of individuals do not make the conscious choice to willingly question everything to the extent that critical mass is reached and subsequent evolution occurs naturally and easily, then “Nature” provides the circumstances to encourage change.

“Nature” in this context includes the metaphysical. It is only “meta” because within our understanding and acceptance of scientific studies we have not yet the means to adequately measure or replicate in robust statistical terms the association of cause and effect. Nor do we yet fully understand the relationships in action.

Social transformation is an ongoing process that never stands still. Change occurs at micro and macro levels and at different levels of consciousness.

For want of better terminology, often in metaphysics, and certainly in my mind, there is an acknowledgement of the existence of collective and universal consciousness. Although these two elements may not be directly within my / our individual control they have a practical impact in the way social transformation occurs.

I suggest there are changes that are in essence “wanting to happen” that cannot be readily conceived in the conscious mind because those changes are out with most, if not everybody's experience to date. However, such changes are within reach of universal consciousness, or in terms of Jungian Psychology what I perceive to be the super-conscious.

(as an aside, you may have come across Otto Scharmer's work on Theory U - which he refers to as “Presencing” - basically helping what wants to happen - happen.
http://www.theoryu.com/ )   
 

This super-conscious is intrinsic in who we are, is a part of each of us, is therefore universal, AND is so VERY common and ordinary that it could I suppose have been called super-common consciousness if it had n't been for those idiotic English elocution lessons where it got shortened to the super-conscious.

The metaphysical collaboration comes into play in the physical world by the creation of unpalatable or unacceptable circumstances, issues and problems when individuals are not in tune with what wants to happen, and these circumstances develop to the extreme if sufficient individuals do not step into conscious questioning in the numbers required to affect the critical mass that results in change.
 

The conflict between what the super-conscious senses or knows, and what the mind resists or fails to acknowledge, is highlighted by, and evidenced through emotion. When the opposing forces are sufficient, the mind either wakes up to what is wanting to happen or succumbs, through some sort of breakdown, and then engages with true feelings in a process that some would call ‘soul searching'.

This metaphysical aspect is the other half of the whole, and completes the balance between Ying and Yang, or in energetic terms between positive and negative, and enables us to subsequently experience the latent potential.

In one of your Bloggs or pods you mention that:

we're incapable of perceiving what we don't already have filters built-in or built-up to perceive … so for us it doesn't exist … full stop! What we notice when stuff happens to and/or for us equals what for us exists. Learning to recognize what we're perceiving and experiencing becomes another way to know something about what may be going on that we haven't yet built the framework for knowing about in any other way.

The super-conscious has no filters and already has a sense or a degree of knowing. It is through the interaction with the metaphysical that filters are dissolved or by-passed (that's not to suggest it is the only way). Also, interestingly, I suspect the outcome of what is created as a consequence of this interaction between physical and metaphysical, is new to both.

I'm curious … do you find it off-putting or exciting that the good Dr. Graves has given us a way to examine where we stand in our values in regard to others … e.g.: “looking out for number one” or “looking out for the system that contains us all.”

Thank you for your directing me to Dr. Graves and to Dudley Lynch's book, Mother of All Minds. I took a look at the information available on, and the chapter summaries from the book. I even started the process of buying it and then ……. I stopped!  It did n't feel right. Not an emotive thing I should point out, but a sense that I was aware of that was without apparent stimulus, i.e. what some might describe as a true feeling rather than an emotional reaction.

So I had some lunch, spent time with two of my kids, just back from university, and with my wife. In the process I became aware of a possible explanation why this happened and why earlier I posed the question “Why and for what purpose would we want to begin to categorise in this manner, in relation to Graves Value Levels?” What is interesting for me is that I did not initially particularly identify with the value of graves approach. I feel this is because I now identify more comfortably with “the other half of the whole”. Oops, there it is again, a partnership to equate with Messrs Ying and Yang. 

When I looked at reviews on Amazon, on Dudley Lynch's book, Mother of All Minds, a number of individuals praised it very highly and commented on how useful it had been to them. This was helpful to me because in essence what I became aware of was that the Graves System services very well the logical mind - which is as important as the intuitive (super-conscious) and at the same time benefits from such well presented support as is provided by the Graves Model.

On the other hand, I appear on a personal level, to work in a way that frequently acknowledges, values and actively seeks engagement with the intuitive and the emotional, and then scrutinizes what I become aware of, using the logical. As a consequence, it appears that I am inclined to tune into, and want space and recognition of, and for, the potential metaphysical contribution in the partnership between psycho - logical and magi-logical. (interesting - I was not expecting that).

I feel it is so important to open the filters to the dynamic that history has shown exists between these two (psycho - logical and magi-logical) even if previous language or explanation has not made clear the existence of such a relationship. In the past, have there not been enough prominent characters responsible for profound scientific discoveries or works of literature who have acknowledged the importance of intuition in their work, for us to give this serious consideration, experimentation and public dialogue? Profound leaps in understanding occur via inspiration first, and are then followed by a logical explanation of how that idea or outcome stands up to explanation - not the reverse.

This has clear implications in education and business practices.

My initial reaction to Graves Value Levels was perhaps similar to my reaction to proponents of MBTI approaches. (there is an article on my old website http://senseable.co.uk/articles/approach-rationale/ that deals with what I would describe as the other side of that particular coin). My hesitation in endorsing MBTI has been because in my mind whilst I am aware there are benefits, I also feel it has the potential for limiting growth, because individuals slot themselves into perceived sets - leading to self fulfilling consequences.

The other aspect that arises is one of speed of change. Logical might be considered akin to organic growth, whereas Magi-logic might conceivable be considered quantum (in effect - unpredictable, unexpected and stimulated by smaller numbers)

You also said:

“i.e.: noticing the patterns of responses of others to the stuff happening around them, including you and your behaviors - until you can begin making accurate predictive assumptions about their most likely responses”

On the one hand this is of relevance yet on the other it is not. From my priority perspective, the concern in raising awareness lies in greater observation of self, in that any dialogue, interaction or experience with or of others has less to do with them as it has to presenting an opportunity to recognise one's own reactions. It is the experience that presents the mirror with which to notice our subconscious beliefs - whether they be limiting (negative) or creative (positive).  

From my point of view the world out here exists for a reason

And offers us those opportunities and paradoxes that enable us to choose the reason for our experiences from which we create the consequences.

Observation implies remaining at a certain remote distance … physically, intellectually, emotionally, even temporally … and for many folks non-involvement as well.

I totally agree. Observation + awareness = accelerated change (I think)

I make the majority of my living consulting and training professionally

I would like to understand more about this, and the type of consultancy and training work you do.

Pete

Re: Beginning Again ...

One other thought that occurs is that to be really creative, the concept of thinking “outside the box” should be publicly and severely trashed. For the majority to do so is difficult - whereas “thinking (and observing) INSIDE THE BOX” - now that's much easier. If it's easy it's more natural?

In the Health Service we have Para Medics come to the rescue - in organisations and life we have Para Docs. :-)

Pete  

Re: Beginning Again ...

hahahahahaha …

thanks for that!

Joseph

Re: Beginning Again ...

Pete,

There are many things I could say … and my guess is knowing myself as I do I will over time. However, for now let me address you last comment souly.

>>I make the majority of my living consulting and training professionally<<

>I would like to understand more about this, and the type of consultancy and training work you do.<

>Pete<

My work involves how people and systems of people are organized structurally as well as functionally. I live at the intersection of Being + Doing you might say.

I help folks to raise their awareness and access a highly charged positive state organized around possibility … usually by asking questions … sometimes really good ones; and at other times providing the right provocation and perturbation to the system … and when the opporutnity arises pointing out how the individual/system comes/came to rest dynamically … resting in the READY POSITION. (This is the structural piece.)

This BTW is the exact opposite of problem solving and analyzing the problem state for why things aren’t working or for what’s broken.

Then I help them determine what they most want in terms of precise and specific outcomes by virture of the evidence that will presence when this is so. (This is the functional piece).

My most common questions are:

This work unfolds in a virtual space and presumes a future that exists … just not yet!. Working in relation to this future memory … creates a strongly organized directionality … a trajectory. We refer to this in the work I do as a Trajectory of INTENT (Intentionality was a central theme in my doctoral research).

The realization fo this work leads to a highly intergrated neurological state of right and left hemispheric balance and dynamic activity (not unlike the states of awareness manifest in deep meditation, but more similar in some ways to super-conscious states of Flow). We create a reaccessing of the right hemispheric acces during the decision-making process. A point here is that decision-making in my parlance INCLUDES TAKING ACTION.

SIMPLY: My work is all about generating highly intentional states of exquisite performance, and assisting my clients generate social influence to reshape the human/social systems they operate in for the betterment of all concerned … beyond personal power to social impact.

If I have completely dissuaded you from remaining interested take a look at my website at: http://www.josephriggio.com. You’ll find some more material there …

Joseph

Re: Beginning Again ...

SIMPLY: My work is all about generating highly intentional states of exquisite performance, and assisting my clients generate social influence to reshape the human/social systems they operate in for the betterment of all concerned … beyond personal power to social impact.

If I have completely dissuaded you from remaining interested

How could I not be? I'm still trying to read the paragraph above in one breathe - so that's a good enough challenge for hanging around. :-)

For now - a call to action - and my accounts.

Pete

Re: Beginning Again ...

Peter:

Let me see if I can help that paragraph breathe better.

How’s this …

SIMPLY:

My work is all about social impact … going beyond personal power.


I assist my clients in generating highly intentional states of exquisite performance. Doing this in the new connected world demands access to the skills of social influence.


Using their knowledge, skills and networks my clients most seek to reshape the human/social systems they operate in for the betterment of all concerned.

For more information here on *zaadz go to: http://jsriggio.zaadz.com/blog

For more information about me and/or my professional practice go to: http://www.josephriggio.com

Joseph Riggio, Social Ontologlist

Re: Beginning Again ...

Joseph::

Your post is so grand and yet so simple. There is a lot to work at here. 

I, like you, like the idea of beginning at the beginning. Strangely, here I find myself drawn to beginning at the end. So much for patterns…I think this is one of those circumstances wherein I believe that my belief is true of me in my actions and choices…not so here…and often no so anywhere, in my experience.  I don't find people as much hypocritical as I notice them to be “still working on it.”  yet another point.

so, i positively and absolutely concur with your position about meditative and contemplative paths and the tendency many devout practitioners have to sitting down to check out.  For my money, that's just boring and not really meditation at all.  I mastered daydreaming in the fourth grade (throughout the entire fourth grade) and i don't need to go to the ashram or for a walk in the woods to do it.  My understanding of meditation is about becoming deeply present.  I remember hearing this story about a monastery who's devotees practice hours and hours of meditation daily.  Someone relayed to me that there was a monk at this particular place who would sneak up behind meditators and if they didn't hear him coming he would beat them about the head and shoulders with a palm leaf.  Now, while I don't personally subscribe to aversion style training, it sure drives home that monk's preferred way of understanding the purpose of meditation.

I have met many, many people who meditate daily and are all over the place,  not to mention vigilant and persnickety. This repeated experience cast a critical hue over the practice of meditation as a practice with benefits. At some point I realized that the people that I was referring to were using meditation as a treatment for stress and anxiety: a way to change themselves and their lives.  They often believed something was wrong and in meditation “tried” to “focus” on being “calm”.  In this way, they were training themselves to resist and hold their attention in a controlled/inhibitory structure.  I'm still sorting this out, but this is my understanding of it.


To some degree, I think the lack that some folks have experienced through this practice is that there is such a romantic mythology around some of these practices that  people separate from the pragmatic aspects, the operational pieces, to the degree that people expect that if they listen to the right music or follow the right guru that they will feel better…and that might be true, while their listening to that music or reading that guru, but without the personal ability to self induce a sense of well-being, they don't get “better,” just temporarily distracted while forming even more beliefs which support their generalized discomfort.

When Devon demonstrated the generative bias position to me and taught
me some of my elicitation strategies and how to track others'
strategies, and about eliciting my own and others' awareness of the
greater system, I immediately connected it to what myself and others
were seeking from meditation.  And now, that's how I talk about it with
my clients.

Anyway, the “why” part, as interesting as it can be, never got me anywhere…still love to wax poetic on it though…


I'm diggin' on the idea that people have an interest in co-creating something amazing of the mundane.  We can redefine and reorganize ourselves to what makes sense to us at the deepest levels from a position of sheer perfection.

This is the frame i like to hold.  And i relate this to what you wrote because in my mythology of the universe, this is how things are…it's how i take it when i am completely embodied in experiencing a sense of inter-awareness…or at least as embodied as I am able to be at this stage of my evolution.

Still, I have a question( or 934 of them):  What do you mean that the stuff around you really happens?  I thought we happened it? Should I take this to mean that my experience is really the experience that I am having- not to question it?  The reason I am positing this is that it seems to me that folks hallucinate all kinds of silly things around and about what's “happening” and attend to their assumptions rather than to the core content.  It creates quite a mess and keeps everyone from being able to co-create at all.  This question of “really” and “awareness” is tricky…

I'll stop there before I end up in some existential dr. seuss-ness.


What say you?


Kiela

Re: Beginning Again ...

Kiela,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you … I’ve been running around the country a bit.

Let me answer your questions as best I can:

“What do you mean that the stuff around you really happens? I thought we happened it?”

There are actually two related questions here. The first “What do you mean that the stuff around you really happens?”, speaks to the idea of becoming aware in the moment. When I use this terminology what I mean reflects the perception I have that reality exists, i.e.: reality IS.

Most people are so busy interpreting what they think of what they encounter they miss noticing what they encounter. My comments are about stopping and catching yourself in the moment becoming present to the actual sensory experience you are having.

Your second question, “I thought we happened it? ”, refers to the idea that we experience most of reality as a memory, a historical ghost of what we actually experienced sensorily. I agree with this as soon as we are talking about memory as opposed to sensory experience in the moment.

Does that clarify it for you?

I hope it helps …

Joseph