Understanding Second Tier

So far this is my general understanding of what it is to be second tier.

To be second tier you would have had to of evolved through all first tier levels of consciousness.  Once at second tier your awareness expands to the level that you understand the importance of all first tier meme's, because your new found level of consciousness would be a holon dependently consisting of all the first tier meme's …correct?  You would be aware of the pit falls in all the lower meme's, and could access all their attributes when the appropriate situations arise.  

If I'm correct with my general construct of what second tier is all about without covering the witness and getting into (I, we, it, and its), then what I've been seeing is a lot of orange meme's boasting their ego in a yellow meme cloak, and attacking ALL aspects of green.  I feel I have an intuitive sense in what I'm seeing as a lot of intellectual pseudo by people who clearly have no understanding of what it is to be at a green level of consciousness, with the exception of a few state experiences.  Like they read some Don Beck or Ken Wilber book/s and all of a sudden BAM!! They're second tier.  It doesn't work like that … you have to evolve through ALL first tier levels first.  And even once you do that the lower levels of consciousness aren't negative, because they all have there place in maintaining a healthy second tier level of awareness.  They only become negative when people get stuck in first tier pathological ways of thinking.

I don't know, am I on crack …I don't see what's so complicated about this spiral dynamics stuff.  Maybe that just means I have very little understanding of it all, but either way I make no claims to what my level of consciousness is, and I'm just here to learning, so help me out.                  

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Interesting post.  I sometimes think 2nd Tier is made to be seem a little more complicated than it is.  If you’re aware of how people develop through levels and see the value in each level, then you’re probably there.

One of the things I think about when I get to feeling that maybe I’m being vain in believing I at least think for 2nd tier is that I can point to when I went through the green meme.  When I was at the center of it and thinking completely from it and when I started to bump up against it’s edges and get frustrated by it (when the belief you’re not allowed to
judge other people’s values started to really just get in the way of
making sense of the world).

Eventually I read things like Wilber’s work and Spiral Dynamics and they had a very freeing effect.  Then there was a period where I had to kind of go back and look at each level and learn to appreciate it.  And some levels were hard to do.  Coming out of green it wasn’t easy fo rme to go back and look at where blue and orange institutions are necessary and healthy.  

But like you said, and I agree completely with this, if you haven’t been through green, you’re probably not really talking 2nd tier.   There’s a time when you realize how damaging and limiting a lot of your judgements are and then you head for green and eventually you have to reclaim judgement, but judgement that’s been sensitized. 

Thanks for the post.  Interesting stuff to think about.   

Re: Understanding Second Tier

I find it to be a chameleon quality, an ability to adopt a persona or tactic that works in a given situation without feeling you are “selling out to the man”.  I am a real estate lawyer and a Buddhist.  I operate in the blue/ORANGE realm most of the week, yet most all of those people do not know I'm a Buddhist.  I live in the Bible belt and frankly it would freak most of them out..  Not to mention it would cost me valued business.  Therefore, I don't wear a mala to closings.  On the other hand, if I want a relaxing weekend to recharge with positive energy, I go to Asheville, NC…the New Age Mecca of the southern mountains…Santa Cruz, East.  There is a sense of community and freedom there that that is empowering,

Bottom line, I see it as flying under the radar and adapting to the environment and to what is requied to perform the functions needed. 

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi Seth - I think we're all just trying to understand what 2nd Tier is, including folks like Don Beck and Ken Wilber. I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there, as there are with any theory.

Speaking of theories…theoretically folks in 2nd Tier understand the importance of all the first tier vMemes, but when I test people on the SDi Values Test, I find that most people who are strong on Green thru Turquoise are correspondingly weak on Red and Blue. They tend to be anit-violent and anti-moralistic. Not really surprising, if you know these people, but does that make them truly 2nd Tier?

Take care, Julia

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi Seth,

after having studied Wilbers work for over 25 years now I am still learning about Spiral Dynamics. And I even focus on Spiral Dynamics Integral for 2,5 years now. Heard first about SD in the book “The strategy of the Dolphin” which was published 1988,by Dudley Lynch and Paul Cordis.

 I can only recommend for all are seriously interested in the work of Graves and Don Beck to participate in the SDi Yahoo group, moderated by Dr. Don Beck and his many colleagues to learn first hand and 24/7/365 online :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiraldynamicsintegral/?yguid=41701184

Description

Especially all themes in the Middle and near East are commented in a highly qualified memetic view and I see the most advanced integral positions represented by the Master Spiral Wizard and his core team.

I was kindly invited by Mr. C4:):) to inform about ressources ,texts and articles which are already dealing with concrete initiatives and action steps. Time to deal with real problems, real people and real solutions in the Middle East. Not only doing armchair integral analysis.

Much even to read, to learn ,to know.

Best,

Albert

Re: Understanding Second Tier

And here a link to C4 blog which some info comments from me:

http://coolmel.zaadz.com/blog/2006/7/sacred_cows_mgms_fubar

 What Don has already written in his essay “Hard Truths &Fresh Start” about Bold,comprehensive and integral strategies for the Middle East; what steps already were taken and who is already involved.

The Middle East and near East could provide great case studies now and in the future about significance,relevance and importance of any integral approach! And, in top oft hat, how European and American constellations/Networks/Meshworks could synergize, align and join forces to support the historic transformation of this region.

what a challenge!

Cheers,

Albert

Re: Understanding Second Tier

My initial post on this thread had a hidden agenda to bring into light something I didn't know how to properly express at the time, and since I'm stuck with my initial words being displayed day after day, I'll just clear it up.

There is one thing that burns me about spiral dynamics and integral philosophy that has no direct bearing on the actual models but rather some of the students of them, and as much as I'd rather walk away with my own understanding of it, my initial post is preventing me.

I don't know if anyone has run into individuals who have called other people lower memes directly while under the assumption that they're of higher understanding or not, but I have.  Some of these people can be very condescending and the reason I get a burning sensation around the subject is because my initial encounter with it was a little to personal.

When a Separated Perspective thinks it's an Integrated Awareness.

I'll just use what Ken Wilber writes in his book integral spirituality to make my above point.

Many people using Spiral Dynamics have difficulty understanding the essential nature of the knowledge that this system represents within a larger AQAL framework, so let me suggest this thought experiment and see if it helps:

Let's say you take a course in Spiral Dynamics at a University.  For the sake of argument, let's say you are developmentally at Level 4, Purposeful.  You read the textbook, you memorize the descriptions of the 8 levels or 8 vMEMES, you discuss them with the teacher and the class.  You take the final exam, and it asks you to describe the 8 levels of values systems, and because you have memorized them, you do so perfectly.  You get 100 on the exam.

The reason that you can describe levels 5, 6, 7, and 8 - even though you are only at level 4 yourself - is that these are exterior or zone-#2 descriptions.  They are 3^rd-person descriptions, even though you yourself are not at the higher levels, whose descriptions you have memorized.

Now imagine a different exam.  This one says:  “Please describe Level 8 experience as it is directly felt, in immediate, 1^st person language,” and this includes an oral exam with the same requirements.  If your self-sense is truly at level 4, you will thoroughly flunk this exam.  You can pass the 3^rd-person exam, but flunk the 1^st-person exam.

In other words, studying the stages of SD can give you the outside (or 3^rd-person) view of the stages, but cannot necessarily transform you to any stages higher than you are already at.  This is not a fault of the system, this is exactly what zone-#2 descriptions are - namely, 3^rd-person descriptions and structural formations of 1^st-person realities.


It's this third person perspective that seems to inflate certain egos in a very poisonous way. 

Re: Understanding Second Tier

S€ŦĦ, what do you think it is about a condecending attitude in someone that bothers you so much?  Is it possible that this is simply wishful thinking (which we all are guilty of now an again, especially if we are still working with a first tier emotional level)?  What about this first tier ego inflation seems so “poisonous” to you?

I'd love to understand your perspective here, since it seems very important to you.  Any ideas on why you consider this type of behavior so dangerous?

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Also, I'm wondering how you, personally, tell the difference between someone who is inflating their ego/level, compared to someone who is actually at that level, and has a healthy ego (non-attachment)?

-Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Turtle, I'll do my best to provide you some answers.

S€ŦĦ, what do you think it is about a condescending attitude in someone that bothers you so much?

the reason I get a burning sensation around the subject is because my initial encounter with it was a little to personal.  That is not saying I disagree with what happened.

Other than that my “pain-body” has always been triggered by projected condescending attitudes towards me and others, though, my tolerance is much higher.  It's just someone throwing their shit on someone else.  If a person is at least at a second tier level in their emotional stream they'll be able to process any emotions that come up even if they falsely identify with them in the first place, but really what percentage of people are at second tier or higher in their emotional stream?

I saw how I brought my burning (anger) to my initial post but I couldn't remove it.  I even requested the pod administrator to remove it but he declined, so I did the next best thing and clarified what was underneath my post.  I wasn't angry when I posted today, but I did mention how it still burns me when I run into self proclaimed second tier's who attack another in a condescending way (the wound is still fresh and it was deep).  I realize that's my experience to take ownership over and I do, I process it.     

Is it possible that this is simply wishful thinking (which we all are guilty of now an again, especially if we are still working with a first tier emotional level)?

I don't know if I understand what you're asking. :\   I'm wishing that people didn't claim to be second tier while attacking another?? 

If that is what you're asking than no I'm not wishing for anything.  To wish for anything other than reality is insane, but since this thread is meant to stand I thought I'd clarify what I was trying to get across in the first place away from that burning sensation.  Who knows maybe it'll help a couple people with their own suffering. 

I'd love to understand your perspective here, since it seems very important to you.  Any ideas on why you consider this type of behavior so dangerous?

I don't know where this “important to you” thing comes from.  If you're only coming from a third person perspective you're not at an integral stage of awareness.

I would say when you're directly condescending to another than it's an attack.  War breeds war.

Also, I'm wondering how you, personally, tell the difference between someone who is inflating their ego/level, compared to someone who is actually at that level, and has a healthy ego (non-attachment)?

Second tier is not complete non-attachment and a healthy ego is relative away from absolute ego. 

Away from what I've already added I use my intuition, and that's not meant to be a lame answer.

I hope my clarification helps you with your questions.

Take care,

seth

Re: Understanding Second Tier

This is interesting, because it comes at the same thing in another pod from a SD perspective. The point raised there was, aren't people a little too happy and positive on zaadz? Isn't it important to deal with the Shadow?

What I said there applies here. You have people here at different stages of growth. Some are relatively far along, and have done a lot of inner work and Shadow wrestling, and are being rewarded with the “gold” Jung promised to those who dig in the Shadow - joy, peace, contentment. Others aspire to that joy and peace and attain it fleetingly at times, but are still struggling a lot. Still others are at a relatively superficial level, or in SD a lower meme, but have the head-knowledge or third-person perspective, and can talk the talk up a storm, and be overly positive, and look down on “less-evolved people”. We have the whole gamut at zaadz.

Very few like being the target of condescension. This touches me personally in that people have often accused me since I was a child of being condescending. It's certainly true that one of my many faults is to imagine that the knowledge I've garnered is intrisically valuable. Actually, as you probably understand, third-person knowledge can be a real snare and impediment, if you imagine it's a goal, or you've arrived. Internalized and actualized knowledge is where it's at, and we're all a work in progress. As I grow older I grow (slowly, painfully slowly!) in humility, knowing everyone and everything is my teacher.

I hope this helps.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: Understanding Second Tier

One thing that has helped me a lot - especially when I'm feeling frustrated with the world and the condecending thought that “People just don't get it!” pops into my head - is to give myself some basic guidelines for how I act.  When I'm annoyed at others for any reason, I try to bring my awareness back to the following ideas:

1. Judging other people is mostly just my brain's misplaced attempt to judge myself, in an effort to protect my precious ego.  If I really want to know what's up I need to see how I'm doing the thing that I find so annoying in others.  For example, when I think, “People just don't get it!” I'm really saying that ”I don't get it!”, and I look for ways to see what it might be that I'm not getting.  (Sure, other people also may not “get it”, but since I'm not in charge of them, it's not really important to me.  My job is to be responsible for what I put out there in the world, and that's it.)

2. My goal is the “health of the whole spiral”.  And to me, that means exploring what health looks like at all of the levels - being aggressive and egocentric when you are at Red, dutiful and ethnocentric at Blue, and so on.   My job is to ensure that people have the resources they need to be healthy and happy at whatever level they are currently at.

3. Good actions come out of good moods.  Bad actions come out of bad moods.  So I try to remember to give myself lots of love and plenty of space to get through my bad moods before I interact with others.  My job is to take care of myself so that I don't add more crap to the world.

I'm definitely not perfect in trying to follow these, and I mess up a lot when I forget what my jobs are.  But that's to be expected, since I'm only human.  Ultimately, my job is to be a human (a human turtle, of course)!

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Nicole, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this and I agree we definitely have the whole gamut here at zaadz.  Nicely put!

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Brilliant observation, Seth! I'm reading Integral Spirituality now and haven't gotten to this passage, but yes, people tend to think higher is better and when they're coming from their egos, they want to be the best and highest. It's not really personal, but it can feel sooo personal.

It's easy to get intellectual understanding. However people tend to go through hell when they evolve from one meme to another (and certainly lots of people go thru hell and don't evolve) in a deep, intuitive way.

One thing that is bothering me about the AQAL movement is that people (and perhaps KW, himself) seem to be turning it into a golden calf and worshiping it. I know KW keeps saying it's just a map and we mustn't confuse it with the territory, but even he seems overly certain that only AQAL can solve the world's problems. For example: “The basic idea is simple: anything less than an integral or comprehensive approach to environmental issues is doomed to failure.” He may be absolutely right, but what we think is always based on the past, so when we're certain we know the right path, we're no longer present. That's a great way to miss what's really going on.

One thing I like about SD is that it reminds us that at every level, we are trying to solve the problems of our existence and at every level, the solutions cause new problems.

It seems to me that smugness is a symptom of that.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Julia, I know what you're referring to, it's actually the second thing I noticed about 'integral philosophy' after seeing the beauty it can attract.

I don't equate Ken as being part of the cult mentality but rather part of the golden calf itself.  You have a significant number of people whose openness stops at KW's opinion instead of including it and extending beyond, but the reason it really starts to get squirrelly is because KW's opinion gets distorted through other people's lenses of perception, so it isn't AQAL or KW's opinions being worshiped, defended, or preached but rather distorted versions of them.

It is what it is I guess…

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Dear Julia, Turtle and Seth,

Excellent points. I think history has shown without a shadow of a doubt that any idea or religion, no matter how beautiful and true in and of itself, can be made an idol and thus become distorted, losing power to change lives for the better in the process.

Convergence, to me, is the key concept. Everything that has truth, whether SD, quantum physics, the best parts of all of the world's religions, or … you fill in the blank, converges on the Truth and brings light to our lives and our world.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi Seth and Nicole - You're right, the larger problem is that people misunderstand or only partially understand AQAL and then defend that.  AND thankfully, Truth tends to survive (although it certainly takes a beating, sometimes).

And there is tremendous insight and value to AQAL. It's probably one of the most powerful theories right now. No doubt, my own understanding of it is extremely limited.

KW continuously reminds us that AQAL is just a theory and yet, in Integral Spirituality, he doggedly defends his rightness again and again. He's seems awfully attached to being right, an insidious form of closed minded-ness.

Is it possible that Ken Wilber is a genius who is blinded by his own brilliance?

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Dear Julia,

I know too little about KW or his body of work to comment on him. In general, though, being too attached to being right is not usually helpful as a trait, especially for a spiritual leader.

This is something I am personally working on in myself.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Interesting, Julia.  I've gotten a somewhat different picture of Ken.  I've seen him change his mind many, many times due to other people's criticisms (I got this impression from reading some of his older books, and then some of his newer ones too).  I think he really tries to be open to all other theories, and gives them a fair consideration before deciding if they seem useful or not.  He really relies on a lot of research and study information to corroborate his conclusions, so I understand why he believes some theories far more strongly than others.  I'm sure he's not perfect, though!  And niether is the research and studies that he uses, I'm sure.  So, hopefully, people who study his ideas understand that they need to try things out before buying the whole thing, lock, stock, and barrel.  I agree, that's where the danger lies with any theory, if people take it as gospel.

I have seen KW be highly bothered by others who don't listen to criticism, and don't adapt their theories when a valid criticism comes up.  (Most notably the Boomer mean Green meme).  His reaction to that may be a bit unnecessary, but who knows, maybe it causes him a lot of problems, and his reaction is warranted?  Also, considering his theories about shadow and projecting one's own first person doubts onto second and third person, I'm guessing that he feels a little guilty about not being able to consistantly satisfy his critics (either by adapting his theories, or helping them understand his teaching so they see where he may have it right.)

In general, I think that Ken can be a little more aggressive than some may be comfortable with in talking about his ideas.  I think that is one of his weaker points, because I think it turns people off where they might be really interested and get lots of great info from him.  I've often said that I don't believe that he's a particularly good teacher.  But honestly, I can't expect him to be great at everything, right?  :-)   When anyone spends a lot of time in their own head being all brilliant (or not), you lose out on practicing social skills.  It's a tradeoff - KW comes up with great theories, but doesn't communicate them well.  Which is why I'm so glad that he's got a solid team of really great teachers working with him.  Though I do wish that some of those on his team would offer to write some of the books, instead of lettting Ken do it…

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Already in the New Testament, nearly 2000 years ago, the apostle Paul notes that “knowledge inflates, but love builds up”.  Knowledge has continued to inflate ever since, and still does. Don't believe that there is a special “second tier” knowledge that doesn't inflate the ego. In fact, I think needlessly going on about how one is “second tier” is dubious in itself.

When I first read about Spiral Dynamics, I suspected that Dr Graves may have seen a big difference that was not there, simply because he was used to the Green stage himself and was familiar with it and all the earlier stages, but not with Yellow which was barely emerging at his time.  So he may have exaggerated the difference, and in retrospect come up with the theory of tiers to explain this imaginary jump. For me who is intellectually at Yellow the next level seems to be much further away than the step from Green to Yellow was.  Unsurprisingly, some people already talk about at “third tier”, even though the theory would not expect such a thing for a very long time, until we have evolved as much again as from the stone age until the 21st century.

I conclude that the concept of “second tier” is uncertain science at best, and even if you firmly believe to be second tier, it is not second-tier behavior to boast of it.  I prefer using the more neutral “Yellow”, and I make no secret of the fact that I will resort to using lower levels in specific situations.  Yellow is largely an intellectual concept yet - we don't have any Yellow societies, Yellow religions, Yellow customs, or all the other things that come when the body catches up with the head.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

I, too wonder whether the great leap to 2nd tier really is that great. The only big difference between yellow and the lower tiers is that yellow can SEE the lower tiers, which is an important step, but all the vMemes make important steps.

And of course, one can understand it and never truly live it.

“The Great Leap Forward” thing may be more about marketing than reality. People's egos naturally want to be out front, so they all pile on the SDi bandwagon and declare themselved second tier! This could be one of the reasons for SDi's current popularity.

Any theory is bound to get it wrong in some ways. Theories get tweaked and improved as more research is done. SDi is incredibly powerful and useful.

I also wonder whether new vMemes aren't fully emergent, yet. Turquoise was identified about thirty years ago, only about 20 years after yellow emerged. The defining features of the two tend to get collapsed into 2nd Tier, but 2nd tier must still be evolving and the pattern has been for new vMemes to emerge increasingly more often.

Where is the research to identify Coral and beyond?

- Julia

Re: Understanding Second Tier

I totally hear where you are coming from with the question “Is it that great to be at second tier?”

I've thought about this and I feel the answer is absolutely “YES”

Yellow is a good place to be compared to the alternatives.  It's definately more healthy than being stuck at Green or Orange level center of gravity.

It's like taking the best of both those worlds it seems to me! 

My intuitive feeling however is that Yellow can have issues being keeping healthy bonds with the more predominate Orange and Greens our society is still centered on.   They can often be viewed as being arrogant or insensitive (and indeed they can be!) because Yellow approaches things a little to academically.  

Maybe it's something to do with realizing you are at yellow and being too quick to realize you know the “better way to be”.   I feel that much of yellow is too much about systems theory and not enough about heart connection.

That's where I think Turquoise comes in.

The thing is Yellow only seems so hot because that's where we are trying to identify.. But Yellow seems is only another small step in a journey that we only can see a foggy one more step in front of us and with a barely formed third.  

But if this system is to be believed there is still many more steps to go and we are likely way closer to the beginning than to the end.  Maybe keeping this in mind is helpful as well.

What is more important, the Label, or the BEingness......

It seems to me, there is a lot of energies BEing exerted to comprehend the labels as asserted by another individual, as opposed to simply BEing the indivduals of love and light we are.

How important is it really, to have reached 2nd tier, if in accord to another, reaching the 5th dimension of awareness is an achievement to strive towards…….

a rose by any other name….

it is not necessary to turn to another for validation of where we are within our own BEingness…..
it is always nice to interact with others, to realise just how wonderful our BEingness is,
and definately necessary to DO all we may to enlighten others to that which we have been blessed……always in humble love, compassion and appreciation…of course.

We, who ask, know where we are, and why we are where we are, and what we must do to transcend, in our continuous pathway to enlightened peaceful loving serenity, in awareness, TRUE.

Is it so important to label the notches in one’s journey, when each notch is its very own, unique and individual perceptual reality, as are each of we, the faithful travellers….
Is it not more important to know and remain focussed on that which we are attempting to achieve overall, and not get distracted and caught up in the inconsequential details along the way????

Just some thoughts, questions, and my very humble perceptual reality of this, fabulous interactive forum.

Blessed BE
ALL of Thee
Angels Divine
within the Embracing Light of
Peaceful Loving Serenity,

Roni
sanctuairesoulssanctuary.com

Re: Understanding Second Tier

A lot of the conversation seems to be revolving around people who “know” they are at Yellow. However, I am not sure that this approach best states the issue because, there are plenty of Yellow vMemed individuals whom have no idea what a Meme is let alone the values associated with them. Thus the individuals that do believe they are Yellow (or any other color) have a tendency to let their conscious self-identification with the meaning of these stages affect the natural unfolding of that stage. Effectively asking themselves  “Is this really a Yellow thing to say?” or “I don't think this reflects a healthy Yellow” when an individual begins to identify these stages and their attributes with their own personality you often get an artificially inflated stage response, which is I think similar to what Seth is saying about wrapping their ego's in a meme cloak.

I am not personally aware of any hard scientific data (I would however welcome it) that gives us a definitive break down of how many people are at a stage of value development. I have heard numbers before but I am not clear as to the scientific reliability of them, that said Wilber claims 1.5% of the population is at Yellow if that's true then we are talking about roughly 98 million people. Continuing on in this “as if” direction, Structural Research on even a small fraction of this population would probably reveal some significant data on the structure of this meme despite its recent evolutionary development.

Speaking purely theoretically then the “big shift” of this second tier population is the fact that all phenomena arising in consciousness gets analyzed in large paradigms as opposed to individual specifics or in other words the 2nd Tier individuals have hard time not looking at the big picture. That's not to say that their view will always be correct or even the best view of situation, but it is a significant leap in values from the primarily reductionary values of 1st tier. Its a completely different thinking mechanic. Its also important to remember when talking about these memes that we are not find a Yellow value as we experience the phenomena, as all thoughts are events in consciousness and Structural methodologies are exterior perspectives of these interior phenomena, it is also the after thought that is psycho-active and makes the move to identify whether the though that was just experienced fits into a Value Structure.

Namaste

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi,
my take on the second tier is that the real divide between upper and lower levels occurs at Turquoise.

Yellow is the finished ego. Authentic. Embracing of their light and dark - and so fully expressive. Spontaneous and fun. Fearless - well almost, it seems. It is a healthy mature ego, with wisdom and understanding abounding. In this case “ego” is not a dirty word.

But spirituality this is not. Indeed I note a few yellow friends are fully agnostic - and they really want to make the most of the physical realms while they are still here.

The next step is a decisively different one - ego surrender. This decision is saying even my completed authentic spontaneous self is still another form of selfish cycle. Its so easy in yellow as the thread suggests to be a tad arrogant, despite all the understanding. I suffer from this fault as well.

This question comes up. Is love the core of me?

I suspect when yellow face themselves squarely in the mirror they know there is so much thought present in their mind that the divine hardly has a place to shine through.

So though I am wise in my yellow brilliance, i am still longing.
And only surrender offers me a way out of this.

Surrendering all that knowledge.

The so called non-seeking-mind must be allowed to open. If so, the process of turquoise is learning non attachment. Or unlearning attachment.

“Surrender” is the decisive step to diminishment of the ego. Releasing “I know”.
And releasing judgement - even releasing to a degree I know not yet - learned linear information.

This is handing my limited thoughts over to the divine - and that takes humility.
It’s more than acceptance - a green development.

In this release can spirit - whatever the power is worded as for you - be allowed to completely fill the heart with love. Then can compassion be. Spreading out into the joy of being. For me the expanded feeling of this is a presence in which reverence and gratitude become most wonderful wordless conversations with the divine. (Just now these occurr in nice little “state” packets. But i learn how to open into this juice, and to do it my mind must be still, and to do that I find i must surrender my ideas.

This is so different to yellow that I wonder wether Dr. Graves was premature in staking yellow as so really different to the other ego dominated states including and preceeding green. In any case the second tier division is fixed, so no point in persuing this notion…

But what do you experience as the difference between yellow and turquoise?
Does that shift seem completely different to any of the preceeding thought-based mechanics known before in adulthood?
Did it take humility to experience love and compassion really deeply?
Does yellow have humility?
Do you find the attitude of humility or surrender the key to the turquoise realm, as i do?
Do you find that turquoise has the vMeme attractor “to experience and express divine love”?

Perhaps too many questions, but does one strike you to write?

.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Graeme, I believe you are on the right track here.  As I see it, the split of second tier is not so much a letting go of ego, but of seeing the development process for the first time and coming to terms with it.  Once you've past the stage, Green, where you accept diversity as a necessity and become aware of your own uniqueness, you can start to move into the stage, Teal/Yellow, where you can begin to really flourish and love your self at it's core (rather than the superficial you that you've presented for most of your life).  This is the stage where the healthy self can finally bloom.  Once it has, then you can move on to the stage, Turquoise, where you are able to see your own healthy self, and work on how to bring that beautiful individuality into service of the world.  I would say that ego is here as well, though for the vast majority of people, you would look very selfless, indeed.  And that's sort of the key to finally dropping the attachment to ego (not losing it altogether, since you do still need a healthy judging mind to live in the real world!).  When you move into Indigo, the ego attachment drops away, and you begin to see in detail how your thoughts, feelings, and actions have an effect on the world.  Then you fairly quickly move into Violet, where you will begin to be able to live life really successfully and naturally - you will just do what you need to do, and it will be good, regardless of whether or not it seems to have been a success or a failure, because you won't be attached to any particular outcome.  It will all be seen as necessary, and you will realize that both success and failure are equally important and wonderful.   When you get to Ultraviolet, you get to be a superhero!  Everything you do will be amazing!

All of this, of course rests upon your ability to deal with your shadow (repressed feelings and thoughts).  You can move up into at least second tier even with a very dangerous and violent shadow.  I would wager a guess that even at Turquoise you could do some serious damage to the world if you haven't been able to integrate your shadow.

I'll also suggest that I believe that a major shift into Teal/Yellow is happening right now.  I think a lot of 20-somethings have started moving there, especially in the geeks and creative class.  And that's great, but we should make sure to try and keep these folks healthy, so that they don't go down a path of shadowy aggressive antisocial crap (which I see in places like DailyKos.com and Air America).  If these folks can stay balanced, and not feed themselves to much negative “If it bleeds it leads” media, then we should be in great shape for another mass move to a more social Turquoise soceity, in another 5 years or so, at the rate we seem to be going.  (I think Zaadz is a great way to help that process along in a healthy way!)

And finally, I'll say that I don't believe that you need to be religious/spiritual at all to move up the tiers.  I think you can have an atheist at Ultraviolet, just as you can have a theist at Orange.  It's far more about framing and context than anything else.  Ultimately we're all talking about the same thing, we're just thinking about it in different ways.  To some the idea of whatever is out there that is bigger than us all fits well into the term God/god.  To others, the term Universe or Cosmos or reality or the Ultimate is more meaningful. 

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi Graeme - You've written some wonderful wisdom here.

I love what you've written about Yellow and the finished ego, altho it's too soon to be sure the ego truly exits at Turquoise. And altho Turquoise tends to be very spiritual, all the vMemes can be equally spiritual. It depends on the individual.

Actually, spirituality can help people evolve faster, so which ever vMeme is newest may appear to be the most spiritual, because spiritual people are often on the leading edge. There was a time when emerging Orange (think of America in its infancy) was so idealistic that there was often a spiritual underpinning. Even scientists can have reverence for what they believe in.

My observation of the ego at Yellow is that it becomes cleaner and lighter - still there, but in a new way.

It seems at Green the ego wakes up and notices that Spirit may actually be able to help it get what it wants in the here and now (Ex: the Law of Attraction) and it sometimes embraces spirituality as a kind of status symbol. “I'm more spiritually advanced than you” becomes the Green version of Blue “Holier than thou”.

That can carry over into Yellow. I think it's the emerging edge of Yellow that is guilty of arrogance. As the vMeme is more fully developed, a more mature level of confidence emerges and humility is a natural byproduct of that. That's what gives Yellow it's cleaner energy.

One thing that gets turned on its head at this stage is the idea that one must give up material possessions in order to be fully spiritual. Affluence makes Green and 2nd Tier possible, but Green struggles against its materialistic tendencies. By contrast, Yellow realizes that the world is changing so fast that it can't take it's economic survival for granted, so it finds new ways to succeed. If it does, it enjoys more material things than it could have previously imagined and more things are constantly being invented, marketed and bought all the time. When Yellow has all its needs met and then some, it becomes spontaneously generous. Giving is a byproduct, not because one “should” give, but because one has so much to give.

At that point, it becomes easier for the ego and the Self to begin working together. It's not easy, because the ego can be pretty slippery - one needs a well-designed environment for this to really work, but there's plenty of good reasons to do it: Spirit offers a sense of peace that the ego wants. Ego can offer extra energy and motivation to get things done that spirit, alone might not.

I think that's the point where Turquoise spirituality begins to emerge: When we see that living well doesn't have to take away from the world, but can actually help us add value to the world, oneness becomes easier to embrace.

Maybe then we can afford to give up the ego.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

We've probably covered this before somewhere, but it might be helpful to define “spirituality”.  It's probably the term that is most difficult for me to pin down when people speak of it. 

Clearly it will mean different things to different people, especially at different levels of development, but it also has different meanings depending on your cultural frame.

For example, to some meditation is spiritual, while to others it's a scientifically proven way to bring the body and mind together for a more wholistic and healthy life.  Similarly, some people think of gratefulness and prayers/wishes as being spiritual, while others see them as simple ways to support positive movement and intent.  The best definition I've been able to narrow it down to is something like: the experience that we humans have when we let our whole minds and bodies work together in a compassionate and joyful way.  Though obviously, some folks would say that spirituality is the felt presence of some kind of superior beings.  So I never assume anything about what people are talking about, when the word comes up in conversation… :-)

Regardless of what you call it, though, I definitely agree that being open-minded, creative, and experimental with your life is a great way to keep moving on up the spiral smoothly!

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hmmm - Interesting!

Spirituality is best obscured by thinking/talking about it.

When you've experienced it, you know what it is - regardless of the definition!

My 2 cents.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

But which “it” do you mean when you, yourself, speak of spirituality?  I have lots of really diverse and interesting experiences, and I know that I'm having them.  And I bet you do to :-)  Which ones are spiritual, and which are not? 

I know it's more difficult to describe things that seem less concrete (as opposed to things like “table” or “chair”), but we do seem to be able to come to a pretty good definition or at least mutual understanding of things like “love” and “hate”, and even weirder experiences such as “nonattachment” and “drunk” .  So, I'm guessing that “spirituality” has at least some shot at being fairly well understood :-)

I know that often people use the term to refer to an experience that gives them that felt sense of being part of a much larger whole (as opposed to an intellectual theory of the same thing).  Obviously, that would be understood differently, depending on the culture that you are familliar with.  Judeo-Christians-Muslims would probably call it experiencing God (or one of his minions:-)  Buddhists might call it Enlightenment or maybe Dharmakaya.  Ken Wilber might call it 2nd, or possibly 3rd, Person God.  Scientists might call it experiencing some of the more core/primal emotions of the human brain.  And so on.

So while it's nice to have single terms that your own culture collectively understands for certain experiences, it's really great to have a more detailed way to describe your experiences for others in different cultures.

-Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

You know, I mentioned in my Dec 7th post that the ego and spirit/Self (whatever you want to call it) begin to work together at yellow, but that a well-designed environment environment was needed for this to really work. this is similar to Don Beck's concept of “strategic habitats”.

There is one excellent environment of this kind that I've made available to my clients in the form of a free ecourse called the Principles of attraction. This is a second Tier approach to the Attraction theory that is so popular these days (think: the Secret), but it's more natural/flexible/sustainable - and it works.

It was designed by Thomas Leonard with a team of about 300 coaches about 10 years ago and has been tested out by thousands.

If you're curious about how it works, here's the link to sign up. If you'd like to know about related free teleclasses, email me at coach@yourlifepart2.com">coach@yourlifepart2.com 

FREE 28 PRINCIPLES OF ATTRACTION ECOURSE:

http://www.cartville.com/app/javanof.asp?MerchantID=67748&ProductID=3314196

Have fun! Julia

Re: Understanding Second Tier

I actually think yellow is the beginning of the surrendering modality. It has learned to access each of the preceding colors as the situation deems necessary; this step alone requires the ability to let go of the specific color attributes for any long stretch of time; as yellow is, I believe, like an infant  finally ready to walk in its unifying potential. To me this is the first stage where the individual has access to its spectrum of “survival vmemes”; however to access them in appropriate manners; one must be outside of them, surrendering the totality of each, to see which would be appropriate.

 Is there still ego in yellow; I would suspect so, but  I feel like the surrender process starts here; though I cant say that it is completely consciuous at this point, I would say there is co creation happening.

Turquiose may be a huge jump from yellow, but I think because it is group inclusive, the resonance of the group helps propel individuals into subtler states of being in a much faster way than say orange to green. I believe the key is that at yellow one becomes one (light and dark) with and in their physical realm, thus the divine may begin to truely enter. Because divine is entered here as part of the co creation, enlightenment begins to increase exponetially so the jump from yellow to turquiose actually appears “bigger” or “wider” than the preceding levels.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

I considered Tony’s remarks, particularly in regard to Yellow having to surrender ego as part of embracing the shadow. Then last night a big shadow-informing dream comes along…and it does take surrender to to acknowledge that stuff, true. Humanities “evil” becomes less “judged” by another increment! Thanks Tony.

I agree with you too Julia. Especially to remember that each stage has its spiritual aspects.

I use the word “spiritual” to mean an awakening to the inner reality of our vast Self.

Borrowing from a long Aurobindo sentence defining spirituality as.”..awakening to the inner reality of our being, to a spirit, self, soul which is other than our mind, life and body, an inner aspiration to know, to feel, to be that, to enter into contact with the greater Reality beyond and pervading the universe which inhabits our being, to be in communion with It, and a turning, a conversion, a transformation of our whole being as a result of the aspiration, the contact, the union, a growth or waking into a new becoming or new being, a new self, a new nature.” (those Aurobindo sentences!)
This defines “spirituality” amply for me.

And this definition of “spiritual” - a gnostic inner-knowing of that “greater Reality” - is a turquoise experience, i believe. I don’t see Yellow necessarily wanting that as they go about “living fully and responsibly” existentially. Green seeks but therefore doesnt completely find the inner spiritual communion, (except, like yellow, in temporary states), blue puts Spirit/God in heaven and in purple mind the spirits are multiple gods or of the ancestors. Also there can be great rituals in purple and blue that do invoke a communion among the tribe or believers.

But turquoise places It within more consciously, and finds that consciousness is at once expansive and loving.

Anybody out there respond to:
Does it take humility to experience love and compassion really deeply?
Does yellow have this humility?
Do you find that turquoise has the vMeme attractor “to experience and express divine love? (or unconditional love might be more accepted language)
Or does yellow have this degree of compassion in your experience?

A new Q:

Is it through unconditional love that we expand into the vast Self, and embrace the holistic reality thats referred to as Turquoise?

My asking here is that in descriptions of Turquoise I have seen there seems to be reference to holistic communion with but little instruction (injunctions) on the subjective aspects of the conscious attractor. Is unconditional love the vMeme of Turquoise as you experience it?

Graeme

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Greame, thanks so much for your very beautiful and thoughtful response!  I'm inspired!

Specifically I had a bit of a revalation when you said:

“But turquoise places It within more consciously, and finds that consciousness is at once expansive and loving.”

Growth and development, at least in a “spiritual” or SD sense, is about the ever increasing ability of consciousness.  When we begin our lives, we are conscious of very little, or possibly nothing at all (certainly at some point before we are born there has to be a time when there is no consciousness in our physical bodies).  As our bodies grow, so too does our consciousness.  Obviously we become aware of things outside ourselves, such as dirt, other humans, bunny rabbits, stars, and candy!  But we also become aware of things inside our selves,.  We quite literally become more aware of our own different kinds of awarenesses.  They start out below our conscious awareness, though we are aware of them, sub-consciously.  And as we explore our own minds and internal experiences, we are more and more able to see things in ways that we'd never known we could see them before.  Maybe spirituality is what we experience when we wake up to a new kind of consciousness.  Each step in our growth is a new step in consciousness, so it would naturally appear to be “supernatural” or “beyond” our previous, mundane life!

Hmmmm.  Thanks for helping me think about that!

I'll see if I can come up with some thoughts about your own questions too…

“Does it take humility to experience love and compassion really deeply?  Does yellow have this humility?”

Depends on your definition of humility.  But to my mind, I would say that one does not need to have humility or really anything else to experience love, since it seems to me that even infants experience love, and prefer it to, well… everything else.  And it does seem to be quite a deep appreciation of love that can be experienced at even the most basic level of existence.  To me, love is really the basic component of our lives - we mammals have an inherent need to both give and recieve love.  As for compassion, that's a different story.  Compassion depends upon the ability to care, and understand what is healthy and what isn't.  It also depends on the ability to see others as self - to literally identify with others.  At the beginning we can only do that with ourselves, then our parents maybe, and then friends and family.  And so on, until, eventually, maybe, we can bring all of the living and even nonliving universe into our selves, our identities.  I'm not sure that we can ever reach a purity of wholeness with others, at least not as long as our consciousnesses are inhabiting human bodies.  So I don't think we can ever have pure compassion, humility or not.  But we continue to get more and more compassionate for more and more “others” as we mature, both because we choose to care about more of the universe, and because we become more capable of caring in a successful way.  I would say that by Yellow/Teal you would have a fairly good dose of what you need to be really deeply compassionate because you have not only accepted the idea that there are other types of worldviews (levels/vMemes) out there, but that they are good and necessary for a healthy world.  So you would have basic compassion and love for all, regardless of what they believed.  Though I suspect that at Yellow, you aren't really all that comfortable with shadow, either in yourself, or others.  So that would be the main seperation between full compassion and basic compassion for all.

“Do you find that turquoise has the vMeme attractor “to experience and express divine love? (or unconditional love might be more accepted language)  Or does yellow have this degree of compassion in your experience? ”

I guess unconditional love (definitely a more meaningful term to me, thanks!) is another idea with levels.  It would seem that Yellow is the first level where you would actively, consciously embrace a philosophy of the need to love the core of someone, rather than just their surface.  But your success in loving truly unconditionally wouldn't seem to be possible until at least Indigo or Violet, where your ego stops fighting for control.  (I think this also may answer, at least partly, your final question, yes?)

Thanks again for a fascinating discussion!

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
-Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi Turtle,
You wrote “But to my mind, I would say that one does not need to have humility or really anything else to experience love, since it seems to me that even infants experience love, and prefer it to, well… everything else. ….. As for compassion, that’s a different story.  Compassion depends upon the ability to care, and understand what is healthy and what isn’t”.

I agree there is this distinction as you have outlined; the feeling of love and the action of love. The latter might be more like your expression on “compassion”. The former is a feeling available to an infant and probably even happy doggies!

Heres a quote form Mother Meera on “Love” - “To go on doing for people what they need, without expecting anything in return, that is love”. That definition places love as selfless and as an action. In its selflesness it would probably be placed more into the turquoise phase as compared to self expressive yellow.

Which turns me again to propose that humility and surrender are hallmarks of the Turquoise where unconditional love becomes the focal meme.

Does yellow act out of selflesness? Not according to the Graves theory. Turquoise does, defining its modus operandi, wherin this stage has the depth to both embrace and serve humanity motivated from its big heart.

My reading of St Theresa of Avilla’s “Interior Castle”, is that Turquoise is the fourth, heart centered “mansion” within. It is in the Fourth Mansions of The Interior Castle, says St. Teresa, that “we now begin to touch the supernatural.” She states her process there as the Prayer of Recollection (of realizing God within; because “the soul gathers together all its faculties and enters within itself to be with its God”).

Theresa describes this Recollection as aquired through simplicity, and contemplation on the loving awareness of God. [It is not yet fully infused with the mystical power that comes in a metamorphosis into Union occurring in a later stage in her mansion series, ie on the spiral].

I guess the point I’m trying to make for we who inhabit mainly Yellow is its still a selfish phase. We will be limited there for as long as the notion of surrender to a higher power (implicit in the upper spirals) is unwelcome to us.

My observation of quite a number of mature age yellow friends is that as “God” is the source of most of the problems in human history and still is for the souls in religious belief lower on the spiral, that the whole notion of Godly-saintly-spiritual seeking is a foolish opiate. And this is accompanied by a strong sureness in their own multifasceted wisdom. My sense is that only impending death will crack some of these certainties. I note those who have had near death experiences get a big hand up the spiral, and selflesness is a real part of them following their experience.

Since noone wants to be so foolish as to give away so much that was earned (humility is a dirty word to the ego) herin lies the torment of this transition.

This development of Turquoise is marked by a desire to serve life and express love rather than seek our own self fulfillemnt.

I don’t believe we can haul our narcissism much further up the spiral past yellow; indeed I propose it is just that ego-self we leave behind consciously as we turn that corner of the spiral.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Hi again, Graeme!

I think, again, linguistic framing is the key to bringing the views of folks who you see as not being able to surrender to a higher power together with your own views of the Universe.  So many of the words we use in this area are loaded with misunderstandings: God, higher power, spirituality.  I think that it creates a huge divide in cultures and even classes when we speak of this stuff, because we simply assume that what they mean when they say “God” is the same thing we mean when we say “God”. 

I hear people like Ken Wilber, and yourself saying or at least implying that the “anti-God” crowd are delusional.  And then I hear the anti-God crowd saying that people like Wilber and you are delusional.  But do any of these folks really know what people actually think?  And ultimately, does anyone really know what the ultimate reality is? Since we aren't omniscient, then we can't possibly know everything about the Universe, and must admit (either consciously or subconsciously) that we might be wrong, or that we might be right.  Or, more likely, it's a bit of both.  I think it's a fair bet to say that we are often a little right and a little wrong at the same time.

The optical illusion of the picture of the vase that is also two human faces, depending on how you look at it, is probably a lot like the universe.  Is it a vase?  Is it faces?  Maybe it's just some ink on some paper!  It all depends on your perspective, and no one perspective is compltely wrong or completely right.

I think this perspective on perspectives is a part of the transition from Turquoise to Violet.  While Turquoise may be trying to be less selfish*, they still don't have the ability to see how their own perspective is just as right and wrong as everyone elses.  I guess you could call it humility - when you stop thinking that you are more right than everyone else.  But I don't think it's a drastic switch, I think it's very gradual over your entire life.  Once you get into Blue/Amber, you have to start taking other people's beliefs into consideration, so that you can work with them to collectively create a solid structure for social standards and rules.  I think it's just that the lower you are on the spiral the less frequently you accept other people's perspectives as potentially correct, because you are afraid that if you admit that too often, you have to admit that your perspective isn't correct (and are completely insane).  Believing that you are insane isn't healthy, so lower levels protect the individual from that potentiality by not letting the mind be too worng too often.   But at Violet, you can finally see that there can be more than one correct perpective!  So at Violet, you can be truly humble as well as strong and confident and not insane :-)   Up until then, to be healthy you have to be at least a little defensive about your beliefs and ideas.

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle


*I don't believe it's possible to ever be completely selfless or selfish, since we are a part of the world, and the world is a part of us - it's like thinking that your hand can be selfish in relation to your body!  Similarly, your hand can't be completely selfless, in relation to your body.  When you are healthy and happy, the world is more healthy and happy, and when you are ill and angry, the world is more ill and angry.  So selfish and selfless become meaningless.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

God! What a great word and meaning to de and recompose at each rung of the spiral!

I think it’s a significant part of the spiral process (determining our God View), just as is Self View and World View.

Turtle, on meanings of words, I’m have a problem understanding some of the colors you use to describe the spiral stages. You introduce a few colors not normally used as part of the SDi color scheme originated by Don Beck. Is there something else that you use for your color scheme? Please translate.

Graeme.

Re: Understanding Second Tier

Sorry about the confusion Graeme, I'm using both the SD colors and the Ken Wilber colors (based on the chakras/rainbow).  I use both to cover all my basis, and because SD stops labeling developmental stages at Turquoise.  For most of Wilber's color scheme, check out the diagram at the Holons “What is Altitude” page.  For some reason, they don't have the levels above Indigo listed there, but they are Violet and then Ultraviolet and the “Clear Light”, at least according to Ken's new book, Integral Spirituality.

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Re: Understanding Second Tier

An amazingly fascinating discussion.

 I think it's just that the lower you are on the spiral the less frequently you accept other people's perspectives as potentially correct, because you are afraid that if you admit that too often, you have to admit that your perspective isn't correct (and are completely insane).  Believing that you are insane isn't healthy, so lower levels protect the individual from that potentiality by not letting the mind be too worng too often. 

To add to your reason for not copping to the truth or to admit mistakes, I'd like to offer the following possibilities/reasons:

The courage to move out beyond the confines of the main stream has to do with loneliness as well, for sure. 

It also has to do with our own subconscious political considerations.  If you allow others into your kitchen and so we like to present a front or fascade of perfection I believe largely from this.

Also…we fear attack.   opening the door for people isn't always a great strategy in a world of delusion and illusion where our faults can and are used against us. So we are fearing pain.

 But at Violet, you can finally see that there can be more than one correct perpective!

I'm definately challenged here.  At less developmentally complex levels, I find that they are so simple, so as to be true ONLY in reference to that person's developmental path.  I don't see it as correct, any more than I see my perspective as ultimately correct as their shadow is cast upon me.  Partially correct and functional. And I see this as always the case.

I see that perspectives can be more or less full basically.  And this is more a complexity issue than anything.  All perspectives adding to the fullness of a more complete one.  So…hierarchically speaking, one IS superior to another in that the fuller rendition has transcended and included the previous ones.

I have to speak my mind here on this one as I am definately confused and had this discussion with a 'green' friend of mine (her label, not mine) who wanted to assert that all perspectives are equally valid–and yep, it got heated.  So…you might see why I see this as a green hangup.

many interesting things here.  I believe there are superior understandings.  The green in me balks at the concept of 'superior', but, the yellow in me cannot deny what seems as plain reality.  Where I am at on this spectrum is irrelevant, and I'm more interested in NOT knowing than in knowing–I know I'm integral, because I was before I ever heard of Ken Wilbur, but don't want to begin identifying in this hierarchical way!!!!!  Scary stuff when you are trying to shed the egoic skin–and failing miserably at times!!!

Anyway, I do see as VITAL this acceptance of others, the letting go of control that the ego imposes, letting go or surrendering, etc.  But I also believe VERY strongly that there are better practices and that certain perspectives are limited based on experience and construction.  I do VERY much believe there are great perspectives I have never experienced coming from all domains of the developmental spectrum, BUT, when it comes to vital issues and matters relevant to higher order consciousness, the overall more complex and logically coherent perspective is simply superior.  NOT equal.

When I find that someone has a superior undestanding than me, I admit that and wish to see what it is that they have to teach AND, I admit that mine is not “correct”, but limited.  In other words, that I have a portion of the truth, in some distorted and immature way, and that another has a more advanced, complex, and useful, superior truth.  I illustrate this way, using those more advanced than I, to reveal that this is not an ego thing, but a logic thing.  This is what logic reveals to me.  Humility is fully present in this conclusion.  I objectively am removed from the construction and conclusion of the scenerio.

And so I'll end by stating it a 3rd time–cause the door must always be open that way ya know.  I might be confused. And that POSSIBLE confusion stems from the various types of perspective we may be talking about.  In other words, it's more a semantics issue than anything.  And, I find at the higher levels, most disagreements or problems are actually merely semantical in nature.  False “problems.”

Oh well, hope someone gets my message in a bottle from the distant past.