true transformation

In our post-postmodern or integral world we have the unique ability to understand the distinction (thanks largely to the work of Wilber and a few others like him), between truly transformative experiences, stages, and temporary, although important, experiences in their multudinous glory: states.  The focus of this pod has, for the most part, been an attempt to discuss some of the phenomena surrounding states.  

Now I'd like to point attention to this very important and timely distinction as the word transformation necessarily alludes to permanent movement along the developmental corridor.  

For example, in terms of unitive experiences, where do we draw the line between the experience being truly transformative, that is, a movement along the stage spectrum, and where do we say that it was a state experience (however powerful)?  Is it possible for one to judge their own experience in this way?  If so, what are some of the criteria and individual needs for doing so?  Does one really need “wise counsel” in order to recognize where they are at? 

I'd like to see if we can tease-out some of these distinctions.   

Re: true transformation

I'm not sure there's any definite way to tell during or shortly after the experience, altho after having been thru a few or a few dozen, I think you get more of an instinct for which is which.

I think the only sure way to tell is to observe yourself over time and watch for behavior changes and structural chages to the ego and the selfhood.

Re: true transformation

I think the only sure way to tell is to observe yourself over time and watch for behavior changes and structural chages to the ego and the selfhood.

That works for me.  However, as the gift of modern psychology teaches us, it can quite difficult for an individual to tell how far along the stage spectrum they are at.  I'm beginning to get the sense that it takes a combination of one's own intuitive sense and the feedback from others, particularly those who are considered “authoritative” by a certain majority of people.  However, I won't go there as far as what the criteria is for “a certain majority of people.”  I will offer it at face-value for the time being.  I think this is where most truly transformative traditions stress the importance of a community of “adepts” and at least one person who seems to be a “master” at telling when someone has moved along the stage spectrum or “transformed.”  Of course, the buddhist tradition calls this the Sangha, one of the three jewels.   I find it is too easy for self-deception at every turn along the way without the proper feedback.  We simply need to be connected to others to know where we are at.  There is no way around that mirror.  Of course, a proper balance between the two is what I mean.    

Re: true transformation

I think this is precisely right. I rely on journaling: I write about virtually everything that happens in interior states. It's wonderful to have twenty-five years of written history that I can review. Patterns certainly recur, but there's also movement into clearer ways of understanding.

Re: true transformation

Here are a couple of points:

• I'm not a fan of linear development schemes; it's one of the biggest gripes I have about Ken Wilber's work. So I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of clearly delineated stages of development which are normative. I sense this interior world is vastly less linear, more of a spiral (like a hermeneutic circle), less bound to fixed categories about the world.
• For me, a unitive realization is one that happens
• On the other hand it's critical not to commit a category error and attribute particular aspects of space-time experience back onto the unitive realization. I believe this is the root of myriad disagreements between spiritual worldviews.
• I do think that wise counsel is invaluable, but, for me, that has not been in a traditional relationship of guru and chela. I have benefitted beyond measure to have had the advice and reflections of my spiritual friends - including my partner John. My old Zen teacher said a profound benefit of relationships is the mirroring that they provide. But it's more than just mirroring. My late friend, Alix Taylor, had the penetrating eye. I do miss her deeply.

Re: true transformation

Does one really need “wise counsel” in order to recognize where they are at?

Hiya, folks.  Much of my own process (still proceeding) of transformation has been without guidance, without guru, with little wise counsel of any sort.  By choice?  Perhaps.  I have yet to recognize someone as capable of teaching me.  Maybe I'm not ready…

I'm not rigorous with my science, although I do try to apply the tenets to my beliefs.  That includes my introspection.  My feelings, my beliefs, my thoughts, my tacit understandings are all empirical evidence for a belief system that is coalescing as we communicate here.  Sure it's challenging to be objective about such subjective data, but it wouldn't be fun if it were easy.

For me, one criterion of a transformative experience is the aha! moment when the path opens inside me (or, rarely, the whole map changes again, depending on what degree of transformation we're discussing here).  There are usually subsequent, echo-aha! instants in which a couple of anomolies get explained or a contradiction dissolves or a paradox gets resolved.  

Re: true transformation

Hi all,

I have enjoyed reading this thread,……

In my own experience I have found that when I am truly able to look back at a way of being/thinking etc, and see it at a clear distance, then I know that I have moved a stage/order of consciousness.

 I have had a lot of experience of transitioning through 'stages'. During the transition process I notice increased feedback from others about changes in behaviour/appearance etc, as well as increased awareness of these things myself.  But, when I really feel I have really shifted, not only do I see a whole set of behaviours, experiences, changes etc at a clear distance, but I also feel a physical change has occurred.

I have kept a journal throughout most of my adult life, and notice a pattern. Not only is this retrospective objectification of my previous 'stage' clearly  visible…but also at the same time there are clear changes in my physical context  i.e. changes in relationships, homes, jobs. 

Also I have had several strong experiences of non dual states/spiritual transcendence/witness consciousness states…and these seem to occur either at the beginning of the shift or right at the end so that I can see everything that has happened from a detached ego.  Usually both.

The environmental changes, inner work and transpersonal connection seem to occur as a cluster.  Sort of an attractor pattern if I look the pattern of my life as a whole.  My most recent shift occured about 5 years ago when I among other things, my epistemological framework was suddenly seen at a distance and I realised for the first time the multitude of options I had for making sense of the world. At this time a parent died, I moved country, started a new relationship and started a new phase of career.

Right now this thread feels timely to read and engage in because  I am having behaviour shifts, environmental shifts, etc etc happen by the week.  I know I am shifting forward but am in it not at a distance from it…my transition is still in process.

All of this makes sense within Kegan's subject/object theory…and a few others who write about stages/orders of consciousness. But in all my research on the subject I haven't found many of them, Wilbur and Kegan included, who have clearly articulated people's experience of process of stage shift.  That is what interests me in particular.

So “wise counsel”? I have always known when I have fundamentally moved 'up a notch' (for want of a better analogy). That said, it is always very affirming to have others mirror the experience for me, particularly people who come back into my life after an absence and so are able to see with fresh eyes changes that have happened.

EM

PS: I agree on the earlier point regarding Wilbur, Kegan and the other constructive developmentalists…the cult of clinging to the idea of linear transition through levels, lines  and stages actually gives me the &%^$£. And I am the worst culprit. Of course it is all essentially a great big cosmic joke of an illusion anyway……..right?.

Re: true transformation

PS: I am so used to working with the term stages/orders that I may have slightly gotten off point  when I now re read the original discussion challenge from you Sean.  Thats the problem with all this jargon…states, levels, stages, quadrants, parallelograms…I think I shall take to my bed.

Re: true transformation

I recently had an amazing experience which truly transformed me! I have since become a Vegan, solidified my identity with the cosmos and no longer fear my future and the world. I wonder how anyone would be able to tell me that I have had a transformative experience, as change in the physical world, which is what others percieve, is only gradual. And in any case, I can tell there was a change, so why would I need anyone to tell me about it.
So often with state experiences you are just left with the knowledge that there is something higher of yourself out there, but you couldn't quite take it back with you, while if it transforms you, it not only comes back, but you become it. right? How could you not notice? How could you not be certain of this change, when you look into the mirror, and something has changed. Not what you see, but the being that sees is different, which changes everything. To me, there is never any doubt about this kind of change. There is no going back, and no question as to its reality.
While of course sometimes a plato-experience can feel like a profound change has happened, it becomes clear that it hasn't relatively soon, when things go back to normal, with a slight discomfort.
What is the real difference in these experiences though? Why are we sometimes transformed and sometimes only catch a glimps?