Who Awakens?

Hi John and everyone.  I was driving home tonight and something struck me which has been bugging me.  I'm hoping someone can help make sense of it.

So, I was thinking about how Adya says that it is not the ego which awakens.  Egos don't get enlightened.  It's more like Oneness realizes that the ego was an illusion all along.  That is where I am stuck. 

How could Oneness ever be fooled.  I can imagine the ego being fooled.  But Oneness?  Beingness?  Awareness?

How can it be that little, illusionary ego-me understands that this is all an illusion while Oneness remains ignorant of it's true nature.  I cannot believe that my ego is wiser or more clued-in than Oneness.

That's like saying that this little illusionary construct called “me” understands Ultimate Reality more than Ultimate Reality understands itself.

Any words of wisdom to help me with this conundrum?

Thanks,
Dave

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi Dave,

That is the play of maya…the illusion of duality. When you dream at night, everything in the dream is you…nothing is separate…and yet you identify with only one small piece - a dream character within the dream. There is THAT which is not identified with the dream that knows it is all an illusion and that everything is THAT. The only thing fooled is the dream character that thinks it is separate. Sometimes, after some time, a dream character will suspect this is all a dream and claim this is all an illusion…and claim that the dream character is no longer being fooled. That is bogus, it is still being fooled…it does not know what it is to be awake…it just has a bunch of concepts and beliefs about what it might be like.

The world is maya…a dream. If Oneness never falls asleep and dreams…all there is is oneness and nothing happens. There are no experiences. THAT fell asleep and created the world so it could experience. As Indian Philosophy says, it is a cosmic game of hide and seek. God (Oneness) hides and the illusionary ego-me seeks. It keeps the game going.

The illusionary ego-me does not understand that this is all an illusion…there is just a concept and a belief that it is all illusion. You are stuck because you have not realized the dream and Oneness…it is only a concept you happen to believe. And trying to use the mind to figure this all out will not help.

Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen

http://www.awaken2life.org

Re: Who Awakens?

Thanks, Eric.  That does make sense. 

This ego understands and accepts on an intellectual level, but not so much on an experiential  level.  Sort of like Adya says that a catapiller can have a PHD in butterflies, but when that catapiller pops out of its cocoon as a butterfly it would immediately realize that nothing it had studied prior could have adequately prepared it for this reality it was now experiencing of actually being a butterfly.

However, I am still unclear on who awakens, or for that matter, who is asleep.  When I dream at night, I unconsciously create a dream character that I believe is me until I wake up and learn otherwise.  In that situation, the “real” me was asleep and temporarily being fooled into believing an illusion.
 
The dream character doen't wake up and realize he is the “real” me.  The dream character is recognized to have been a temporary illusion that the “real” me believed while asleep.

That would seem to imply that the one being fooled by maya into believing it is this little me, is Oneness itself.  Oneness is playing hide and seek by pretending to be a little me looking for Oneness. 

I could accept this except for the fact that even though this ego has not experienced the reality, it does understand in principle what is going on.  So the dream character knows he is an illusion and that his fate is ultimately to disappear (upon Oneness awaking) and to be seen through completely.

This conflicts with my understanding that all my life, unbeknownst to “me”, the Beloved has been with me, looking out through my eyes, and knowing the whole Truth. 

The dream model seems to imply that the Beloved (or some portion of the Beloved) has been asleep.  And that little, illusionary, dream-me is sitting around waiting for the Beloved to wake up.

I end up in a place where I see the illusionary ego, that I take myself to be, and I see the Beloved.  And “I” am a third party in the middle.  “I” am the unspoken “I Am”, the sense of beingness.  This “I Am” falsely identifies with the little egoic dream-me most of the time.  This “I am” lends a sense of beingness to the egoic dream-me.   But it would seem that this “I Am” cannot be the same thing as The Beloved.  Because The Beloved is always already awake.

I hope this makes sense.  Thanks for your patence.  :-)

namaste

Re: Who Awakens?

Hello Dave,


Have you heard of this?

 http://becomingme.com/order.html

It confirm's yours and Erik's conversation in a simple and yet profound way.  The book is delightful, but equally so, the film is just pure simplicity.  I think it costs around 3 dollars, and is worth every penny.

Clare

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi Dave,

This film is also on Utube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEQFIo1lFbk

I'd love to hear what you think of it?

Clare

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi Clare,

Thanks for the recomendation.  I did check out the video.  It is quite beautiful and poetic.  I would be curious to hear the responses from some other folks who are more or less fully awake, as to how well the film corresponds to their impression of capital “T” truth.

I feel a little funny about the “God got lonely so S/he created us as playmates”-concept.   Especially with all of the horrific suffering in the world.  If 'God' is experiencing duality through us, can S/he be finding the world's plight more tolerable than the boredom and loneliness S/he was originally seeking to escape?

My present conception of reality goes something like this.  There is the void, emptiness, no-thing.  Pure Awareness.  Pure knowing without thought.  No time.  No space.  No concepts.  And this lack of concepts must necessarily include the concepts of duality and nonduality, things and no-thingness, existance and non-existance.  So there is not even the concept of nothingness.  There is an abscence of things and an abscence of the absence of things.
(I had a really hard time wrapping my mind around this until I read Wei Wu Wei's, “Ask the Awakened”.)

So if you have an absence of an absence, what do you have?  A prescence?  Not exactly.  You have the true reality which lies beyond all conceptualization.  And this “true reality” manifests as “Emptiness Dancing”, as Adya would put it.

And Emptiness Dancing seems to appear (to itself) as impermanant “things” appearing and disappearing in the eternal, formless, unchanging, void.  This creates an illusion of space and time.  Emptiness Dancing is Pure Formless Awareness with apparent forms appearing, disapearing, moving, and interacting.  The “things” have no independent existance or awareness. 

Then, it seems like Pure Awareness becomes entranced by the dancing forms.  Like a child shaking a snow globe and then staring at the tiny house with the tiny family and drifting off into a fantasy where she is one of the tiny people in the snowstorm.  She totally forgets who she really is and where she really is.  For that moment she is a little girl outside her house, with her family, in a snowstorm.  Pure Awareness becomes entranced with the movements within Itself, mistaking Itself for these moving forms.

So I guess that would mean that “God” is dreaming up a little dream guy whose dream story is that he wants to wake up.  The little dream guy doesn't really need to wake up because he is not real.  And “God” may or may not wake up from this dream/trance.

I need to stop writing now because my brains are dripping out of my ears and I'm not sure if anything I've written makes any sense whatsoever. lol  Again, thank you for your patience.

namaste

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi Dave,

“However, I am still unclear on who awakens, or for that matter, who is asleep. When I dream at night, I unconsciously create a dream character that I believe is me until I wake up and learn otherwise. In that situation, the “real” me was asleep and temporarily being fooled into believing an illusion.”

No. The “real” you was not fooled, just the thinking mind is fooled. The thinking mind accepts what it perceives. The mind creates a dream character and identifies with it. The mind insists that the rock you kicked in the dream hurt. The “real” you knows it is a dream…and also knows how well you slept or not when you wake up. The “real” you is always present and always aware…it is only the thinking mind that identifies with a portion of the dream. What you are saying is from the standpoint of the thinking mind that does not know what the “real” you is aware of.

Ultimately, no one awakens…no one is asleep. Awakening and asleep are concepts in duality created by the thinking mind. It is a part of the game (maya…lila).

“The dream character doen't wake up and realize he is the “real” me. The dream character is recognized to have been a temporary illusion that the “real” me believed while asleep.”

No, the dream character is the temporary illusion of the thinking mind. The thinking mind believed it was you.

“That would seem to imply that the one being fooled by maya into believing it is this little me, is Oneness itself. Oneness is playing hide and seek by pretending to be a little me looking for Oneness.”

The hide and seek analogy is from the perspective of duality…but what you said is trying to take a nondual and turn it into duality. All there is is Oneness…there is no other. It is the thinking mind that identifies with a small portion of maya…Oneness is beyond duality, it is never fooled into thinking it is a portion. That would mean it shrinks and becomes two…or there is an aware portion and an unaware portion…that is duality. Oneness is not fooled…it is the thinking mind that is fooled…the thinking mind creates the ego-me.

“I could accept this except for the fact that even though this ego has not experienced the reality, it does understand in principle what is going on.”

Understanding in principle means nothing. That is the caterpillar understanding in principle what it is to be a butterfly again. When it comes out of the cocoon, it will say “I never thought it would be like this.”

“So the dream character knows he is an illusion and that his fate is ultimately to disappear (upon Oneness awaking) and to be seen through completely.”

Who knows? That would be the ego-me.  That is just a subtle way to keep itself going. Some day…but not now. That is the game the thinking mind/ego plays to perpetuate itself. Postponing awakening.

“This conflicts with my understanding that all my life, unbeknownst to “me”, the Beloved has been with me, looking out through my eyes, and knowing the whole Truth.”

You are the Beloved…ultimately. But at the same time, the Beloved has been with you…if you surrender to the beloved and no longer act on your own accord - that would be another way to enlightenment.

“The dream model seems to imply that the Beloved (or some portion of the Beloved) has been asleep. And that little, illusionary, dream-me is sitting around waiting for the Beloved to wake up.”

No - that is not what I implied, as I already covered above.

“I end up in a place where I see the illusionary ego, that I take myself to be, and I see the Beloved. And “I” am a third party in the middle. “I” am the unspoken “I Am”, the sense of beingness. This “I Am” falsely identifies with the little egoic dream-me most of the time. This “I am” lends a sense of beingness to the egoic dream-me. But it would seem that this “I Am” cannot be the same thing as The Beloved. Because The Beloved is always already awake.”

That “I Am” is the mind…the ego. Closer to what I am pointing to is the “I Am” without the “I”. The ego is what sees a self and an “other”. If you directly realized what the jnani knows - you would say “I am Brahman…the Beloved.” But some are more devotional in nature and do not want this and so they retain more of the ego in order to devote a self to the Beloved. But then the self is still given up…to the Beloved. Jnani and Bhakti is ultimately the same. Adya is more of a jnani…so if you want to love a Beloved…this may not be for you right now.

Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
http://www.awaken2life.org

Re: Who Awakens?

Thank you Eric.  I got a lot out of reading your reply.  It seems like I have been confusing how things appear from the duality perspective  and how they appear to Oneness.

You are the Beloved…ultimately. But at the same time, the Beloved has been with you…if you surrender to the beloved and no longer act on your own accord - that would be another way to enlightenment.

Thank you.  That seems like good practical advice.  And most of the time I am not torturing myself by running in these intellectual hampster wheels.

On a day to day basis, I usually try to be in a “Thy Will Be Done”-mode.  That comes largely from my working the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and the idea of turning everything over to my Higher Power.

At the same time, I have been obsessively driven to read stuff by Nisargadatta, Ramana, Eckhart Tolle, Adya, et al for the last few years.  The obsession has been fueled by the feeling that I am constantly right on the edge of breaking through.  With Bhakti, there is always a part of me that worries it is all wishful thinking.  Like I am choosing a nice fairy tale to believe in.  With Jnana I feel that there is undisputable self-validating truth at the core.  That is the appeal for me. 

Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond.  I really appreciate it.

namaste

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi Dave!

“On a day to day basis, I usually try to be in a “Thy Will Be Done”-mode.”

But that is you trying…don't try or do anything. Do nothing under your own power…Thy Will is the only will. God controls you and God does all actions…therefore all the results and fruits of all actions are God's alone.

“At the same time, I have been obsessively driven to read stuff by Nisargadatta, Ramana, Eckhart Tolle, Adya, et al for the last few years. The obsession has been fueled by the feeling that I am constantly right on the edge of breaking through. With Bhakti, there is always a part of me that worries it is all wishful thinking. Like I am choosing a nice fairy tale to believe in. With Jnana I feel that there is undisputable self-validating truth at the core. That is the appeal for me. ”

Both are self-validating. If you directly experience God, there is not much room to doubt. Have you directly experienced God…do you know the Beloved you love? Does your Beloved speak to you?

God is formless, but God also can have forms. In nonduality, the world is maya (illusion) - but you must realize the illusion too exists…and Brahman is maya as well. Maya is an expression of Brahman. They are not two - God and the illusion are one…Samsara and Nirvana are one. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the play/illusion, just don't take it seriously.

Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen

http://www.awaken2life.org

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi David,
I don't have a background in Hinduism, but I recommend letting go of the mind and it's constant efforting to try to “figure out” everything (which appears to be what you arrived at earlier in this thread).  It is the mental activity that keeps you from knowing Truth.  When you surrender in this and every moment to what IS (including all of the confusion and lack of understanding) you create an opening for an Awakening to arise.  The Divine Impulse within is to awaken and to know Itself in Creation, but it is the presence of the ego trying to make it happen that actually keeps it from happening.

However, when you drop down out of your mind and into Present Moment Awareness, you open yourself to the Now moment where Truth already is.  As Eric said earlier, it is the illusion that we are separate beings, that we are living in separation, and that there is an “I”.. that keeps us from experiencing the our true nature.  It's important to note however that the illusion is only that we are separate.  This physical existence of ours is not illusion.  God is hidden within it, Truth is within it, and you are THAT.   The illusion stems from the mind and the false belief that we are something other than what we really are. 

So then the way home is first to drop the need to understand and to recognize that the ego's efforts to wake up aren't going to wake anything up.   It wants to read and learn because it is trying to understand how to awaken itself, but the reality is that it cannot, and ironically, when Awakening happens ego isn't even there.  Then practice being present in every moment.  When you are fully present the mind quiets and an opening is created for Truth to reveal itself, and happens by Grace, not by efforting.
peace/love
John

Re: Who Awakens?

Thank you for your reply, John.  And the fact of the matter is that the few glimses of Awakeness that I have had, have all come in times of stillness and never in times of intellectual analysis.
namaste

Re: Who Awakens?

Hello David,

You have not only had a few glimpses of Awakening, instead you have had hundreds upon thousands. We just usually have a tendency to credit the big ones as the only ones, but the Truth is that you are seeking your enlightenment always, you just are not always aware of it. For instance, every night you seek to become more aware of yourself. You just don't always remember it. Just the fact that you are asking these questions is awareness within itself.

There is really nothing that I can add to the responses that you have already received other than to say, never stop asking yourself (God) questions. For you (God) always answers or inquiries, we are just not always listening.

“Be still and know that I am God.” –Psalms 46:10

Peace, love and joy on your journey back to yourself (God).
~Namaste~
*deep bow*

Re: Who Awakens?

Thank you, Brian.  And I really like that quote.  IMHO, it's probably one of the most profound bits of advice in the bible.

Re: Who Awakens?

Hi Dave,
You're welcome.  I'm glad it was helpful.  Every opening into Oneness that I've experienced happened after I first dropped into Presence as well, which is why I encourage everyone to do it.  It truly is the easiest way to get Home that I know of.. there's nothing to study (even though I've read nearly 300 books along the way) or figure out or even do except be in the Now moment.. and as Brian said.. ask. 

There is one other component to waking up that I also want to mention, (which you may already know, but I'll set it out anyway) which is closely related to asking for help when we're stuck, and that is setting our Intent.  When I started out on this path 13 years ago I said “God, I want to Awaken and I don't care how hard it is, but I want it as quickly as possible.”  (I don't know that I'd particularly recommend this for everyone though.. as the Universe tends to take us very literally),  :-) but the point is that it has happened four times so far, and it came because of my intending it. 

You may have heard the interview with Adya (on the Spontaneous Awakening CD's) where he said that with the people whom he has seen awaken he believes that Intent is the primary factor in it happening.  As he said, it doesn't matter if we have the right posture or do the right mudra or whatever, we're going to wake up if we want it badly enough.  I like to tell people “Set your intent and then bring yourself into the Present Moment.. and let the Universe handle the details.”  As Yogananda once said “God cannot refuse a sincere heart”.
peace/love
John

Re: Who Awakens?

Ah yes, “intent”.  That has been a point of confusion for me for some time.  Deep down, I believe that “intent” is very important.  But I am not sure how to fit it in with the advice to “surrender to God's will”.  

In AA they have a saying that, “It was your best thinking that got you here.”  Step Three says “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.”  I have been taking that pretty literally. 

When I consciously “intend”, is that not my ego rejecting the present state of affairs?  And is not the current state of affairs “God's Will?  Like Eckhart says, “Allow… what is… to be,…  because it is.”  And Byron Katie talks about accepting each moment as it manifests, because “what is” is “God's Will”.  That's how you know it is “God's Will”, because it has manifested as this.

That sometimes ends up leading me to the depressing conclusion that “I” can have no useful role in precipitating my Awakening.  So where and how does “intention” fit in?  And who is it that makes these intentions?  My ego/mind?

Can open.  Worms everywhere.  lol

namaste
Dave

Re: Who Awakens?

David,

Keep these questions coming. It is quite obvious that your 'intent is to awaken as quickly as possible as you keep focusing on trying to become awakened.  As you have stated from AA ”It was your best thinking that got you here.” Keep it up and you will be pleasantly surprised where it will lead you.

Again you state a step from AA: ”Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.” What do you mean when you have been taking this literally?

I have recently come to the understanding that there are only two ways of living in this world; for God (self) and for the Devil (Ego, selfishness). So when you say “I turn my will and my life over to the care of God, praying only for knowledge of his (my true) will for us and the power to carry that out.” I have would respond and say that when you give your will to God, you give your will back to yourself. You stop giving your will to your Ego, which is selfishness.

“And God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” –Genesis 1:26
“In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.” –Genesis 5:1

When you really understand these to verses you will see that we are mini versions of God (consciousness, energy, love, truth); therefore, we have the same capabilities as God. We are mini creators. When you give your will to God, you give your will to your creation. Nothing can be created in the past or the future, which is where the Ego (mind) dwells. When you keep your intent on the present moment (NOW) you return to your true self (God, creation, consciousness).

Having’intent’ for the future is as essential part of life, but to dwell there rather than focusing on the task at hand is when the ego takes control. Yes, everything that is happening now is God's will (perfect).  I, again, have just come to this realization that, for me, perfect  meant that once perfection is reached there would be no better place to go and nothing else to do. I now understand that perfection means that there is nothing missing, nothing wrong, all is well. And that is what the present moment is, perfect (God). Now in saying this you might ask, if everything is perfect than what else is there to do? And I would respond by saying what do you want to do?

That is all that we are doing here, deciding what experiences we want our God selves to experience in physical form. Before we took physical incarnations we were all the same energy, with all the same characteristics. Now that we have taken physical forms, we are still the same energies displaying different characteristics. We are still the same energy (God) we are just having different experiences, for the fun of it!

When you give in to God's will (true self) you are in 'Heaven on Earth.' When you give in to Ego will (selfishness) you are in 'Hell on Earth.' Heaven and Hell are not places in the universe, they are states of mind. Whenever you resist the present moment, God (yourself), you find yourself having a hellish experience. Whenever you except the present moment, God  (yourself), you find yourself in heaven.

“Life will give you whatever experience is most helpful for the evolution of our consciousness. How do know this is the experience you need? Because this is the experience you are having at this moment.” –Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth.

“I tell you this: There is no coincidence, and nothing happens “by accident.” Each event and adventure is called to your Self by your Self in order that you might create and experience Who You Really Are.

All that is required is to know this. For you are the creator of your reality, and life can show up no other way for you than that way in which you think it will.” –Neale Donald Walsch, Conversations with God (Book 1)

~Namaste~
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

Nara-Narayana,

I have been reading the intrguing theories as presented through this pod for some time and I thought i might chime in with some of my own perspectives.

You say that “there are only two ways of living in this world God(self) and for the devil (Ego, selfishness).” And, yes, the concept of surrendering my “will” to God is certainly a Christian tradition. However, if I am in contact with my “will” is it not the ego that has that awareness of will? Does not the ego, or that part of me that believes I am a”self” living in a “world,” easily envelope and consume all thinking thereby making God's will simply part of the ego's “plan” of willing? Am I deluding myself as such?
In addition, if I conceive of myself as two parts, one to be desired and one NOT, do I not thereby persist in reinforcing the NOT simply through my resistance to that part? Doesn't the ego eagerly enjoy that “thinking” which resists it, since, in fact, it is reinforced?

All that is required is to know this. For you are the creator of your reality, and life can show up no other way for you than that way in which you think it will.” -Neale donald Walsch
Yes, but isn't “thinking” ego-based in and of itself. Don't the masters tell us that thinking only perpetuates more of the same which keeps us firmly planted in the fixations of mind?

If I use thought to determine my life as God's will, is not the ego making that choice before I then live by that choice. In other words, if I live my life completely by ego determinations and then suddenly decide to make choices based on God's will is not that decision ego-based? In fact, am I thus merely choosing one ego delusion for another?

Just adding to the ongoing discourse on awakening…

Thanks
mike S

Re: Who Awakens?

Brilliant!  Great post, Mike!  For better or for worse, we seem to think the same way.

Your post makes me think that this is where trusting one's intuition must come in.  You are so right about the thinking mind and the ego's tendancy to co-op everything, especially spirituality.  But what if turning one's will over to God is more of an intuitive shift toward surrender than a thought-based decision.  More of an allowing than a doing.  Perhaps the ego is doing the allowing.  But by allowing itself to be moved it is releasing the reins.  Sort of like a compass needle that has been spending its whole life working hard at constantly trying to figure out where north is and constantly adjusting itself to try to be in better alignment with north.  Then the compass needle hears that the only reliable way to point to north is to surrender completely, to have faith that north will pull the needle if the needle just lets it.

Re: Who Awakens?

Thanks Dave,

I recognize the two types of knowing most spiritual paths seem to identify are intellect and intuitive. Many spiritual circles do seem to point to the intellect  or mind as bound up with ego. Are we then saying that the intuitive is separate from the mind? (the mind being the seat of the intellect and the seat of “self”) Or is intuitive “knowing” just another form or layer of ego, but less reliant on sensory perception? and maybe more attuned to other ways of knowing?

I have heard theories which place the intuitive understanding as within the whole body and even on a cellular level. And that may be from where the intuitive originates but do we not experience intuitive knowledge in the mind ?  Could we not, in fact, say that all “experience” is of the mind, since clearly we identify with the mind as the “self,” much more than the body (although the body is seen as a part of “self,” the mind is more quintessentially the “I am that”). Could we not say that if all experience is of the mind and the mind is ego, awakening is of the ego? Possibly we need to move away from this tired old worn out label of “ego.”

So yes, I agree that, as you state, “perhaps the ego is doing the allowing.” In fact I tend to feel that it must be that way.

But, lets face it, what is the ego? Isn't it simply a composite of “beliefs” that I hold to as “self” and in fact isn't it merely my belief in that I am something as opposed to nothing, Since it is the nothing that I fear which caused me to from a “self” or ego. Therefore, the very idea of transcending the ego seems to me absurd since all my beliefs are ego, good and bad. The most I can do, if I am so spiritually moved, is to transform the ego in order to align my beliefs with the intuitive which may be a deeper more esoteric understanding of self and world, yet it is still ego. This may then be an arranging of conditions so as to allow for revelation/realization/enlightenment, etc, etc. But of myself I cannot in any way faciltate awakening since I am ego and not to be ego is not to exist. or pure nihilism.

I can never be NOT be an ego even in my deepest spiritual practices an ego must be the practicioner. Though the ego seeks to transcend itself it cannot negate itself no matter how hard it may try since that would be non-existence. I could say, “but my true self is not an ego.” But who is saying that? The ego seeking true self?

It's like a vicous circle in which the ego tries to consume itself but finds that it can only get so far since it is both the prey and the predator.

Just thinking out loud…

Thanks,
mike S

Re: Who Awakens?

Hey Mike,

Are we then saying that the intuitive is separate from the mind? (the mind being the seat of the intellect and the seat of “self”) Or is intuitive “knowing” just another form or layer of ego, but less reliant on sensory perception? and maybe more attuned to other ways of knowing?

The answer to the question is absolutely yes, that the intuitive aspect of our being is separate from the mind.  The intuitive impulse arises from within Awareness.. which is your true beingness in God.

Could we not, in fact, say that all “experience” is of the mind, since clearly we identify with the mind as the “self,” much more than the body (although the body is seen as a part of “self,” the mind is more quintessentially the “I am that”).

Experience itself isn't of the mind.. it just happens.. but our interpretation of our experience comes from the mind.  When a person is deep in Awareness or Presence, whatever happens just happens and there is no interpretation of it.  It's just the experience of Life.  However, when a person is primarily ego identified (ie.. with beliefs, judgements etc) then experience does become part of the mind because it is filtered through the neural net of beliefs and labels of the ego.  Make sense?

Could we not say that if all experience is of the mind and the mind is ego, awakening is of the ego? Possibly we need to move away from this tired old worn out label of “ego.”

Awakening is most definitely not of the ego.  Ego tries to understand it, quantify and qualify it, but it cannot create it, nor can it participate in it.  When Awakening happens, ego is not even present, which in part creates the dilemma we are faced with today.  How does one explain the unexplainable, especially when the mind wasn't there to witness or experience the event?  When you Awaken into Oneness, Awareness of the Self as One with All is the essential experience.. and there isn't any ego involved.  In fact, when it happens, you often don't even know who or what you are for a time.  So it's a mystery to ego.. but I suspect it won't stop trying to figure it out anytime soon.  :-)

But, lets face it, what is the ego? Isn't it simply a composite of “beliefs” that I hold to as “self” and in fact isn't it merely my belief in that I am something as opposed to nothing, Since it is the nothing that I fear which caused me to from a “self” or ego.

Exactly.  The ego is a composite of beliefs that does try to maintain it's “somethingness” out of fear of annihilation.. of the “nothing” you describe. 

Therefore, the very idea of transcending the ego seems to me absurd since all my beliefs are ego, good and bad.

It is absurd indeed.  We need at least a modicum of ego to get by in the world.. meaning that we need a thinking mind to function.. but we DON'T need to indentify with it. 

The most I can do, if I am so spiritually moved, is to transform the ego in order to align my beliefs with the intuitive which may be a deeper more esoteric understanding of self and world, yet it is still ego. This may then be an arranging of conditions so as to allow for revelation/realization/enlightenment, etc, etc.

I assume you mean discovering the distortions of the ego.. ie childhood woundings and beliefs etc.. and bringing them to awareness.  This is an essential part of the process of awakening, but it can also be a real game of cat and mouse if you let ego take charge of the “doing”.  As I said earlier.. the ego wants to maintain itself at any cost.. and it can and does use this very thing to accomplish that end.  One can spend eons digging around for stuff to look at or integrate and find that all you're doing is going around in circles.  I've done that, and believe me it's not fun.  What I discovered works is to give the process to God and let it happen as it needs too.   My part then is just to bring myself Present and BE.  When you drop down out of your mind/ego and into your body and bring yourself into present moment awareness the mind quiets all by itself.. and then when distortions arise they are easy to spot.  It's a simple process.. although one that the ego is usually very resistant to because it knows that if it allows PMA to happen it's going away.  :-)

But of myself I cannot in any way faciltate awakening since I am ego and not to be ego is not to exist. or pure nihilism.

Actually this is not true.  You can help to faciliate awakening, and you are most definitely NOT ego.  You have an ego, you may or may not experience your life through ego, but you are not ego.  You are Awareness in the Body of God.. ie. you are an aspect of God in creation.  Ego is an illusion yes.. but Awareness.. the essence of your Beingness.. is not.  And you can faciliatate awakening by answering the inner impuse to awaken, by meditating, by bringing yourself Present into the Now, by reading whatever you're led to read, and by doing whatever your intutive nature tells you to do. 

I can never be NOT be an ego even in my deepest spiritual practices an ego must be the practicioner. Though the ego seeks to transcend itself it cannot negate itself no matter how hard it may try since that would be non-existence. I could say, “but my true self is not an ego.” But who is saying that? The ego seeking true self?

Again, you are not your ego, but what you say with respect to the spiritual practice may or may not be true.  Your own Awareness/Divine Impulse is driving the desire to awaken, so unless the activity is taken over by the ego as it's own (which it often will do) then the actual process is Divinely led and intuited.  When ego takes over though, you are correct that it cannot transcend itself.  When you say “My true self is not an ego” it may be ego saying it.. but again it may be arising from a deep inner knowing that your true self is NOT an ego.  Keep in mind here that there exists a fundamental Truth amidst all of the chaos of the mind, and it is unchanging and real.. and that is that you are God.
peace/love
John

Re: Who Awakens?

Guys,

Great Stuff! I do tend to disagree with the the basic thesis of ego as presented here within these posts. But only in part, not in whole. You guys have presented some incredibly
thoughtful ideas, which I fully consider worthy of the fullest attention.

The general “idea” as presented in these threads is that ego must, in some way, be transcended in order to “awaken.” I would advocate that if one is attempting to transcend any particular, speciific part of self, or self /ego as a whole, then one is not awakening through that transcendence, one is merely imagining all manner of phantasmoagorical experiences that IS of ego/self and maintains attachment to self and body (the ego loves flying around on varying planes/levels of consciousness and engaging in all manner of “beyond normal” experiences since IT is the ONE doing or experiencing IT).

“You can help to faciliate awakening, and you are most definitely NOT ego.  You have an ego, you may or may not experience your life through ego, but you are not ego.  You are Awareness in the Body of God.. ie. you are an aspect of God in creation.  Ego is an illusion yes.. but Awareness.. the essence of your Beingness.. is not.” - John

John, I agree with the “awareness” part of this statement. Yet, in my humble opinion, this is a fundamental trap of all spritual paths. The practice of identifying and isolating and then, essentially, villifying an aspect of self or, in fact, self in toto, since the ego is the self. Here is a part of the whole that I must in some way break with, transcend, seek other then, be other then, move away from, etc, etc. Awareness is the whole, but the moment a “part” is differentiated as undesirable in any slight or subtle way, the whole is LOST.

The problem is the more we attempt to “transcend,”  the more we solidly we press ourself down into it and become more deeply invested in IT (and this seems to occur on subconscious and unconscious levels - I believe many are unaware of their role in this ego maintenance). Therefore, all these “experiences” that we call “awakening” are merely wonderful flashes of light and sound (and whatever else) signifying movement along the path, but not full awakening, to God. How can that happen, when you have identified a “part” that YOU have decided is unwelcome? Does God not accept ALL of you?

We may try desparately to be pleasant to the ego or self and thus limit our seeing it as unworthy, but in our efforts to transcend IT, we are positing an ultimate desire to end its “life.” No matter how we choose to describe our endeavor to awaken, we are essentially an ego/self seeking to be other then what IT is.

This is the antithesis of oneness and unity that is of God/Source. Advocating that  “you are not your ego” is easily incorporated into “egoness” and the ego enjoys transcendent processes that simply allow it to essentially assume other “forms” of itself.

Make no mistake, in seeking to transcend the ego you have consciously and unconsciously determined it is NOT desirable to you and what you resist, must persist. You may enjoy the seemingly transcendental experiences of this path, but totally transcend you will NOT.

Many may state that you should still find worthiness in the ego in your attempts at transcending IT. However, the differentiation has been made and thus, pretending to love the ego while exiting the ego is inauthentic and the ego knows this and easily rolls with it.

Accept that you are an ego and love IT, not some pseudo-love, but truly love your ego (past, present and future) and in so doing, seek to transform its essence and not transcend its presence. Embrace it as the whole and the totality of perfect peace.

Do not in any way villify or seek to separate from parts of the whole since as such the whole will elude you entirely. In this love of “wholeness,” transformation is indeed available to wholeness but only as wholeness. No need to differentiate or judge since that only presumes “parts” and thus parts are what you will continue to experience.

Yet, in the end my words are useless and in any path to God/Source you will need to find your own way by relying on “self” and nothing else.

My Best To ALL,
mike S

Re: Who Awakens?

Mike,

“The general “idea” as presented in these threads is that ego must, in some way, be transcended in order to “awaken.” I would advocate that if one is attempting to transcend any particular, speciific part of self, or self /ego as a whole, then one is not awakening through that transcendence, one is merely imagining all manner of phantasmoagorical experiences that IS of ego/self and maintains attachment to self and body (the ego loves flying around on varying planes/levels of consciousness and engaging in all manner of “beyond normal” experiences since IT is the ONE doing or experiencing IT).”
What we are advocating is that you are not Self (Ego). Your Ego is the illusory function of your illusory false self that is a necessary function in this illusory world of forms (bodies and minds -Egos-), and to that end, you need to utilize the Ego to function as be able to you see yourself and the world at large that you see around you. What we are saying is that when you see you true Self as the Ego, then you see yourself as the illusion who is stuck within the illusion; which the Bible defines as Hell. I believe that I have stated this once already somewhere in the thread, but in case I haven't I will say it again. Heaven and Hell are not a place that we go to in this Universe, or in another dimension; Heaven and Hell are a state of mind. When we realize our true Selves (God), we are in a state of Heaven, Bliss is you will, and we think (Mind) of our Selves as Ego (mind), we are in a state of Hell.

“You can help to faciliate awakening, and you are most definitely NOT ego.  You have an ego, you may or may not experience your life through ego, but you are not ego.  You are Awareness in the Body of God.. ie. you are an aspect of God in creation.  Ego is an illusion yes.. but Awareness.. the essence of your Beingness.. is not.” - John

“John, I agree with the “awareness” part of this statement. Yet, in my humble opinion, this is a fundamental trap of all spritual paths.
The trap that you speak of in this line of think, Mike, is the trap that the Ego lays out before you. The only trap is that you believe what the story (illusion) that the Ego is selling you.

“The practice of identifying and isolating and then, essentially, villifying an aspect of self or, in fact, self in toto, since the ego is the self.” 
Mike, once again I will repeat. The Ego is NOT self; until you no longer identify with this illusory aspect of the false Self, than you will be at the mercy of its every whim. This is the transcendence that we speak of. Once you realize that the thoughts that are generated from the mind are false, then, and only then, can you seek to overcome it. Awareness is what I speak of.  Becoming aware of every thought that enters your mind and seeing how you fell (God, soul) about it. Will tell you whether or not this thought came from the false Self (Ego, mind) or the true Self (God, essence, you).

Here is a part of the whole that I must in some way break with, transcend, seek other then, be other then, move away from, etc, etc. Awareness is the whole, but the moment a “part” is differentiated as undesirable in any slight or subtle way, the whole is LOST.”
Mike, In no way is the Ego you, you only think that it is you, and by thinking that the mind is you are experiencing this existence as Hellish, if you will; from a state of confusion. You are Wholly everything, pure God essence. And in that everything that you truly are, you are nothing. And since Ego is something, you are not Ego!!!

“The problem is the more we attempt to “transcend,” the more we solidly we press ourself down into it and become more deeply invested in IT” Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Yes the problem is when you 'attempt' to “transcend.” Transcendence can't be attained. Transcendence is what you are. You can't transcend something that you NOT. Let me see if I can't see this in a clearer way by using an analogy.

Let's say that you are dreaming. And in this dream you see yourself stuck in a jail cell, in a prison that has totally be abandoned, so there is no one around, outside of you, to save you from his prison (Trap, Ego, mind, thought). You spend days just thinking about how you are going to starve to death, or die of thirst. For the first several days you yell for help. but to no avail you find yourself alone. You desperately try anyway that you can think of to try and open the door, but alas in is locked from the other side. Eventually after a week or so you feel exhausted mentally, physically and emotionally, so you decide to give up hope and sleep. While sleeping, in this dream, you have a thought from deep inside you, a premonition if you will. This thought tells you to that the key to your freedom is contained within you, and all that you need to do is stop resisting what is already contained within you.

All of a sudden you wake from the dream, and say to your self, “WOW, was that thought real?” At first you start the think (Ego) that it was just a dream and dreams are not real. Eventually after some internal debate you decide to give it a try (you've already tried everything else right? So what can it hurt) and let this key that is contained within you to come out of you. You try a few times and nothing happens. You might start to get frustrated, and you start think (Ego, mind) that you knew all a long that the thought just came from a crazy dream. But then, all of a sudden, you get a felling (a premonition like the one in your dream) to just let go of all resistance. So you finally sit quietly, and close your eyes and try to release all thoughts and doubt. Bam! All of a sudden the door flies open and you think to yourself, “What was that all about?”

You quickly decide that it doesn't matter because you are now free, and you race for the door way. The exact moment that you cross the threshold of the doorway you wake from your dream, and find yourself comfortable in your bedroom in your safe friendly house. You then think to yourself. “Wow that was amazing! I wonder what this all means?” You get yourself out of bed and start to make your daily preparations for that day.

What has changed in your daily life, due to this dream, you might ask; nothing that you visually see, but instead, everything that you see and experience is different because you see everything from the eyes of your soul (your true Self); internally. You see life as a vibrant flow of loving energy that is a part of you but is different from you (not your body, or mind-Ego, but your essence). Different in this matter does not mean separate, which is how you had felt while in the jail cell (Ego, mind); different simple means that is you but in a different form.

When you come to this realization you can say that you have awakened to yourself (God), and you can truly see yourself in everything that takes up a physical form; everything comes from the same essence (God, consciousness, love).

“Therefore, all these “experiences” that we call “awakening” are merely wonderful flashes of light and sound (and whatever else) signifying movement along the path, but not full awakening, to God. How can that happen, when you have identified a “part” that YOU have decided is unwelcome? Does God not accept ALL of you?” Yes, of course God accepts all of you. You are God, don't you except all of you? Even the parts of you, your body and mind, which are not a part of you! Experiences cannot be seen, they can only be felt. Once you see something you are in the mind (illusion) once again. It is not until that you realize that the illusion is there for you to be able to experience your true self (God) through experiences that can only be experienced through your body and mind (illusion) that you can see this reality (world) as one big experience of true Self (God).

When you leave your body, transcend this world (illusion), you will not be able to tell your self (God) apart from any other part of your self (God). This is the beauty and gift of this experience, world (illusion). When you can see that you can create the world of form in any way that you wish so that you can experience, whatever you wish, only then can you start to have the experiences that you truly desire to experience.

Sorry, I have run out of time. I might be able to try and help you answer the rest of your questions and a later time, or maybe one of the other enlightened people can pick up where I left off. Either way, God (Self) bless you always Mike. Know this and you will know peace.

~Namaste~
*deep bow*
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

Brian,

“The trap that you speak of in this line of think, Mike, is the trap that the Ego lays out before you. The only trap is that you believe what the story (illusion) that the Ego is selling you”
Yes! Of course! But consider this paradox - part of that “story” (illusion) that the ego is “selling” you, is that you are NOT an ego and therefore you must seek to find the real “self.”

You may attribute this desire to God (or anything you like) but no matter, it is the ego that is informing you that you need to NOT be an ego. The ego speaks in “tongues” and if you want it to, it will tell you that you are God.

How could it not be selling you that story (illusion) since the need to “buy” it means you acknowledge that YOU are an ego IN an illusion or else you would not be seeking for a way out. Sadly, the way out of the illusion is just another part of the illusion.

You seem to be saying that though you recognize that you are IN the ego illusion, you THINK there is a way out of the illusion. All you need do is simply refuse to buy into the ego's illusion.

The problem is, that not buying into the illusion (story) is simply part of the illusion. It's like an M.C. Escher painting, which staircase do you choose to ascend to God. Unfortunately, they all lead to each other. Round and round we go.

In fact, in the illusion the ego even informs that “hey we don't need to transcend, we already are transcended.” The problem is that though the ego informs that I have transcended suffering, when I open my eyes I may be “looking out from my soul,” yet if I am still a body, I continue to be imprisoned by the body's limitations and hence, suffer with the body. But, wait a minute I'm transcended!!!

The ego loves to conjure up dreams of dreaming that you are dreaming. Each dream seems a little more High Def., but it's a dream all the same. Yet, I will not stop seeking to transcend the ego and thus, the story within a story, the illusion of transcending illusion, continues on ad infinitum.

As krisnamurti (U.G. and Jiddu) proclaimed “truth is a pathless land.” There is no path to teach and whatever is taught cannot be the way, simply because ego must teach ego how not to be ego. Kinda like the blind leading the blind, don't you think?

Nevertheless it is fun to talk about…

Thanks,
mike S

Re: Who Awakens?

Yes now you have it David. Trusting ones 'intuition,' faith (God's will) is exactly what I am talking about here.

“what if turning one's will over to God is more of an intuitive shift toward surrender than a thought-based decision.” Please say this to your self everyday, 1000 times a day for that matter. Pin it to the dash board of your car, on your refigerator. Wherever you are going to see it a lot. This is exactly right!

“More of an allowing than a doing.  Perhaps the ego is doing the allowing.  But by allowing itself to be moved it is releasing the reins.” Yes, yes and YES!!! Spot on. :-)

Re: Who Awakens?

Hello Mike,

Let me see if I can explain. You say, ”if I am in contact with my “will” is it not the ego that has that awareness of will?” Yes, your ego can beome does become aware of your (God's) will.

“Does not the ego, or that part of me that believes I am a”self” living in a “world,” easily envelope and consume all thinking thereby making God's will simply part of the ego's “plan” of willing?” Yes and no. Yes, the Ego does all of the thinking. Without your Ego (mind) you could not be here in this existance, this 'illusion' if you will. Without. I never said that the Ego was bad, except when making reference to allowing it to control your thoughts, rather than having you (God) control your thoughts.

”In addition, if I conceive of myself as two parts, one to be desired and one NOT, do I not thereby persist in reinforcing the NOT simply through my resistance to that part? Doesn't the ego eagerly enjoy that “thinking” which resists it, since, in fact, it is reinforced?” I am not quite understanding what you are asking here, and I don't want to assume anything. Please re-word these thoughts.

”Yes, but isn't “thinking” ego-based in and of itself. Don't the masters tell us that thinking only perpetuates more of the same which keeps us firmly planted in the fixations of mind?” Once again, thinking is a necessary function of this world (illusion). Without being able to think I could not response to you right now. Be these thoughts are not coming from something the I beliefs but rather, these thoughts are coming from my knowing. I am telling my mind what to think at this moment. That is the difference between God's (true self's) will and Ego's (false self's, Illusion's) will. We can never stop ourselves from fully thinking and still dwell in this illusion.

“If I use thought to determine my life as God's will, is not the ego making that choice before I then live by that choice.” Yes if you allow the Ego to determing life for you. The less you think about things, situations, future events, etc… And the more time you send acting upon them, as they arise, the more time you spend with your true self (God) and the less time you spend with you false self (Ego, illusion). Quiet the mind and just BE (yourself, God).
 
 In other words, if I live my life completely by ego determinations and then suddenly decide to make choices based on God's will is not that decision ego-based? In fact, am I thus merely choosing one ego delusion for another?” No! Once you decide to let your true self (God) give you a thought and you react to that original thought, without allowing any other thought to effect that thought, then you are acting upon God's (your) will. All the Ego can do is follow and obey so that you can carry out that function in the world.

I hope these responses can help you on your journey.

~Namaste~
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

Thanks for that post, Brian

Keep these questions coming. It is quite obvious that your 'intent is to awaken as quickly as possible as you keep focusing on trying to become awakened.

Oh, don't worry.  I am in no danger of running out of questions.  lol

Again you state a step from AA: ”Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.” What do you mean when you have been taking this literally?

What I mean is that, “Thy Will be done”, is practically a mantra for me throughout my day.  Someone cuts me off on the highway and I feel that anger reaction begin to rise and I reflexively think, “Thy Will be done”. 
The car that cut me off was God's Will. It's okay. 
The anger reaction was God's Will. That's okay.
My thinking, “Thy Will be done”, was God's Will.  That's okay.
And the ensuing peace that replaces the anger is God's Will. And that is awesome.

The car cutting me off has become a rather easy test.  Some tests are even easier.  Some are much harder.  My practice has been to meet as much of daily life as possible with acceptance.  When “I” cannot accept the “now” as it is manifesting and resistance takes the reins,  I try to at least notice the resistance as quickly as possible.  Hopefully, I can meet more and more things with acceptance as I continue this practice.

I have recently come to the understanding that there are only two ways of living in this world; for God (self) and for the Devil (Ego, selfishness). So when you say “I turn my will and my life over to the care of God, praying only for knowledge of his (my true) will for us and the power to carry that out.” I have would respond and say that when you give your will to God, you give your will back to yourself. You stop giving your will to your Ego, which is selfishness.

That makes sense to me. 

Having’intent’ for the future is as essential part of life, but to dwell there rather than focusing on the task at hand is when the ego takes control.

This makes me think about the idea of faith.  Maybe the only real choice is faith or no-faith.  If we choose no-faith, then our ego sees the need to do everything.  Protect itself, feed itself, look out for number one.  Because ego thinks it is the only force in the universe looking out for it.  There is no real freedom here because the ego becomes a slave to self-preservation.  If we choose faith, then we see ourselves as being one perfect part of a perfect higher order.  The water molecule doesn't stress about charting it's course down a river.  It flows with the river and allows itself to be moved according to the higher order of the river.  There is a greater sense of freedom because the water molecule's desire is one with the river's desire and each moment unfolds perfectly.

I'm enjoying this thread and am greatful to all who have been participating.

namaste
Dave

Re: Who Awakens?

Okay David,

”What I mean is that, “Thy Will be done”, is practically a mantra for me throughout my day.  Someone cuts me off on the highway and I feel that anger reaction begin to rise and I reflexively think, “Thy Will be done”. 
The car that cut me off was God's Will. It's okay. 
The anger reaction was God's Will. That's okay.
My thinking, “Thy Will be done”, was God's Will.  That's okay.
And the ensuing peace that replaces the anger is God's Will. And that is awesome.” I would have to say that this generalized thought is a good thing, and it might be where you are at in your evolution (awareness) right now. But let me offer you this question and see if it doesn't help you to expand upon that excellent thought. Why are all of those thoughts and reactions God's will? Three of them had an 'I accept this current event and one of them, the final one, had a 'now this is more like it' tone.

“The car cutting me off has become a rather easy test.  Some tests are even easier.  Some are much harder.  My practice has been to meet as much of daily life as possible with acceptance.” Excellent! Acceptance is the first step to allowing God (yourself) back into your life.

“When “I” cannot accept the “now” as it is manifesting and resistance takes the reins,  I try to at least notice the resistance as quickly as possible.  Hopefully, I can meet more and more things with acceptance as I continue this practice.” David, don't hope for this. This is exactly how you become more aware of yourself, by becoming aware of your thoughts (resitances) the moment that the thought (resistance arises). Accept everything exactly has it is, and only then can you make a rational, conscious choice about how to make things better from there. Now is all there is and you can never change what has already happened. You can only decide to stop the same negative re-action from happening next time, by continually becoming aware of every thought that you have every now moment, and then only dwelling on the thoughts that you feel come from God (self).

”This makes me think about the idea of faith.  Maybe the only real choice is faith or no-faith.  If we choose no-faith, then our ego sees the need to do everything.  Protect itself, feed itself, look out for number one.  Because ego thinks it is the only force in the universe looking out for it.  There is no real freedom here because the ego becomes a slave to self-preservation.  If we choose faith, then we see ourselves as being one perfect part of a perfect higher order.  The water molecule doesn't stress about charting it's course down a river.  It flows with the river and allows itself to be moved according to the higher order of the river.  There is a greater sense of freedom because the water molecule's desire is one with the river's desire and each moment unfolds perfectly.” Once again David, this is pure wisdom that came from God (self). You already know that you are aware of yourself. You just haven't fully convinced your Ego (false self) that you are that other thing and NOT the Ego. But that's okay. I am not fully there either. If I had to put a barometer on where I believe I am at as far as BE-ing my true self in every now moment., I would  have to say that I am somewhere between 80-90 % complete.

Here is and awesome post that a friend of mine gave the other day that might help you see things, in life (perceptions), a little differently.

Keep up the good work my friend. God (you) is on your (God's) side!

~Namaste~
*deep bow*
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

Great posts everyone.  It's interesting that on Gaia we often say the same thing but from a different perspective because of our differering paths, yet it's evident that we are converging on or arriving at  the same “place”.  (I would like to say though  Mike, that most of what you'll find on this pod isn't theory because it's been proven in application.)

I'd like to present a perspective from quantum mechanics that relates to your “tests” Dave.  From an energetic perspective, you're experiencing these things because you resonate with them.. and nobody is “testing you”.  The universe is just offering up a reflection of who you are at an energetic level.  Our reality is created by our beliefs and thoughts/emotions.. so when these things come about they signal that there's something within us that is out of harmony with our Source.. or God.. or Self.  Make sense?  It's true of our entire life as well.

There is no real freedom here because the ego becomes a slave to self-preservation.  If we choose faith, then we see ourselves as being one perfect part of a perfect higher order.  The water molecule doesn't stress about charting it's course down a river.  It flows with the river and allows itself to be moved according to the higher order of the river.  There is a greater sense of freedom because the water molecule's desire is one with the river's desire and each moment unfolds perfectly.

You hit the nail right on the head here.  When we don't have faith (or trust) we have little choice but to rely on ego for our well being and survival.  So then it comes back around to surrendering the ego and bringing ourselves into the Present moment and trusting LIfe.. and then we're in the flow you're describing.

On Intent:  Jesus said once that if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could tell the mountain to go from where it was into the sea and it would.  What he was trying to tell us is what we now know from quantum science.. and what people around the planet are discovering.. and it is that we live in a quantum field that responds to our every thought.  And as I said earlier this field reflects back to us exactly who we are at the deepest level.  So it is as Brian said (as I recall).. intent is a necessary part of our life.  We can't escape it.. we create all the time whether we're aware we're doing it or not. 

Your question of whether this is ego or not is that depending on the situation the answer could be either yes or no.  When the desire to create comes from deep within, it's the Divine impulse desiring expression.. but when we create from ego we're usually coming from a perceived lack somewhere and ego wants to fix the situation.  Eckhart has a wonderful way of relating to this process.  He said on the Oprah webcast that the impulse for “A New Earth” simply arose from within him because Life wanted to it to be created.  That's exactly what happens to us when we feel a deep impulse coming from within to have or do a particular thing.  The only difference is that often we don't recognize that it's the divine impulse and he did. 
peace/love
John

Re: Who Awakens?

Great post John! :-)

~Namaste~
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

Again, I am really enjoying all of the contributions to this thread.  Clare, you still around?

John said: “I'd like to present a perspective from quantum mechanics that relates to your “tests” Dave.  From an energetic perspective, you're experiencing these things because you resonate with them.. and nobody is “testing you”.  The universe is just offering up a reflection of who you are at an energetic level.  Our reality is created by our beliefs and thoughts/emotions.. so when these things come about they signal that there's something within us that is out of harmony with our Source.. or God.. or Self.  Make sense?  It's true of our entire life as well.

Yes that does make sense.  And I do realize that nobody is actually testing me.  If anything, I am testing myself.  The “testing” model has been useful in that it has helped me to disidentify with the automatic reactions of my body and mind just enough so that I don't completely lose myself in them. 

Whereas before, I would automatically reincarnate as the angry guy, the “testing” model allows me to remain at least partially identified as the witness.  Then there is an awareness of the anger, but there is no “me” attached to it.

The input from you and Brian has reminded me that although this “testing” model can be a useful tool in the beginning, it too must ultimately let go of.  Sort of like that Indian saying about using a thorn to remove another thorn that is stuck in your hand.  Once the imbedded thorn has been removed, you discard both thorns. 

Maybe there is enough awareness in me now that it is unnessary for me to keep a watchful eye out for the awakening pain body.  But my personal experience seems to indicate that it does not take much reduction of my vigilance for the pain body to notice, seize the opportunity and off to the races we go.

namaste
Dave

Re: Who Awakens?

David,

In no way was I trying to imply that you should stop keeping an eye out for you re-actions of your body and mind (your pain body). That is, in fact, the only way to work your way out of your old habits and re-create yourself anew in every now moment. How can you become more aware of your self if you are not aware of your self when you are allowing yourself to be fooled by your false self? Catching your self in an unconscious re-action to a learned situation is the only way to becoming aware of that unconscious act.

What my question to you was meant to imply was, if everything is God's will, and you accept that, then why would you not accept all of it as awesome? You see, we have a tendency, which we have all learned through our experiences in our mostly unconscious world, to notice the things that make us upset more so than the ones that bring us joy. Your experience in the car for instance, you saw three events as, “okay I can deal with that” and only one as “now that's more like it, awesome!” When we can get to the point of not even noticing the crazed drive and giving him any of our energy (thoughts), then we can say that we have transcended that re-action.

So please keep up your diligent work to always seek to catch yourself in a unconscious state of mind or thought.

~Namaste~
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

A thought occurred to me this morning.  I would have preferred an overwhelming felt-realization.  But until such time, at least I have a thought.   It goes to the original question of this thread, “Who Awakens?” 

What I was actually thinking this morning is, “Who or what is it that identifies?”  When the pain body becomes active and I do not notice, it is said that I have identified with the thoughts and emotions being produced by the pain body.  However, when I have, at least partially, disidentified with these thoughts and emotions, the pain body loses it's ability to fully control my behavior.

So who is this “I” that can identify or disidentify?

And then it struck me this morning.  I accept that thoughts appear and disappear spontaneously within awareness.  There is no “me” thinking them.  I accept that emotions appear and disappear spontaneously within awareness.  There is no “me” feeling them.  So why not apply this to disidentification as well?   Anger arises spontaneously in awareness.  One of the characteristics of this particular appearance of anger is that it has a sense of “I-ness” attached to it.  There is no separate “I” there identifying with the anger.  The sense of “I-ness” just happens to be a characteristic of this particular arising of anger. 

Then a thought spontaneously appears and disappears in awareness.  The thought is, “I have detected anger arising. I must now disidentify from this anger.”  Nobody thought this thought.  This thought appeared and disappeared spontaneously.

Then the “I-ness” characteristic  of the anger spontaneously disappears from awareness.  Maybe the anger disappears with it.  Maybe the anger disappears a few moments later.  It doesn't matter which, because forms are always appearing and disappearing. 

Maybe a new thought spontaneously appears and disappears in awareness, “I have successfully disidentified from my anger.”  There was no need of an “I” to think this thought.  It simply appeared in awareness like any other form that comes and goes.

There is no need to postulate an “I” that identifies or disidentifies.  Just as there is no need to postulate a thinker of thoughts.

This is probably related to how some teachers say, “There is no thinker and no thoughts.  There is only  thinking .  There is frequently that tendency (spontaneously arising of course) to want to divide things up into multiple parts (thinker, thinking, thoughts), even though these divisions do not necesarily exist in truth

So there is no “I”.  There never was an “I”.  There is only an “I-ness” characteristic that frequently arises, attached to thoughts, feelings, etc 

And to relate this to the topic of this thread, “Who Awakens?”

The answer would be, no one. 

All that happens is that the “I-ness” characteristic that always used to spontaneously arise in conjunction with thoughts, feelings, etc, spontaneously ceases to do so.

Someone might argue and say, “How can it be that all of these 'spontaneous appearances in awareness' just happen to appear in meaningful sequences.  I would answer that I never said these the arisings are random, just that they are spontaneous.  They appear to have a pattern of higher order to them.  That is just one of their characteristics.

Someone might ask, “Does this mean there is nothing I can do to help precipitate my Awakening?”  The answer would be, “There is no you.”  When the person looks confused (or maybe even annoyed), one could say.  “This 'trying to awaken' that 'you' think 'you' have been doing has really been spontaneously arising in (your) awareness.  There never has been a “you” trying to Awaken, just an appearance of one in Awareness.  What should “you” do next?  You'll find out when “you” do it (when it appears in Awareness)

There.  Solved the mystery of existance.  What's next on my to-do list……

Namaste
Dave

P.S. That last bit of bragadocchio is just a joke.  If I understand anything, it is the fact that I really understand nothing. (but it's still fun to play around with)     :-)

Re: Who Awakens?

“And to relate this to the topic of this thread, “Who Awakens?”

The answer would be, no one. 

All that happens is that the “I-ness” characteristic that always used to spontaneously arise in conjunction with thoughts, feelings, etc, spontaneously ceases to do so.

Someone might argue and say, “How can it be that all of these 'spontaneous appearances in awareness' just happen to appear in meaningful sequences.  I would answer that I never said these the arisings are random, just that they are spontaneous.  They appear to have a pattern of higher order to them.  That is just one of their characteristics.

Someone might ask, “Does this mean there is nothing I can do to help precipitate my Awakening?”  The answer would be, “There is no you.”  When the person looks confused (or maybe even annoyed), one could say.  “This 'trying to awaken' that 'you' think 'you' have been doing has really been spontaneously arising in (your) awareness.  There never has been a “you” trying to Awaken, just an appearance of one in Awareness.  What should “you” do next?  You'll find out when “you” do it (when it appears in Awareness)

There.  Solved the mystery of existance.  What's next on my to-do list……

Namaste
Dave

P.S. That last bit of bragadocchio is just a joke.  If I understand anything, it is the fact that I really understand nothing. (but it's still fun to play around with)     :-)”

Joke or not David, you just answered your own question. By God youv'e got it! That is exactly right. There is no ” I ” in this world, there is only how ” you ” perceive your false self. ”You” are not your mind and ” you ” are not your body, and you cannot fully know your ” I ” while in this world of illusion, because you cannot fully stop identifiy with your mind and body. Once you   do you are no longer in your mind or body, and once you re-enter a body, whether it be the same one or a new one, you, once again cannot fully stop identifying with your mind and body. This is the enternity of God; the cycle never ends! This is how God (we) designed it, and we love it that way. We will forever be creating new and grander experiences for ourselves to experience.

”Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all”. –1 Timothy 4:15

The only diffenerence between knowingness and your old knowingness, is that once you realize why you created this game you can consciously create which experience that you want no matter the circumstances; Heaven. And as we know, when you see your self (identify with) your mind and body, then your experiencne can be down right hellish. Now that you are armed with this knowledge, all that you have to do is live it in every NOW moment you will be able to do just a Jesus said:

 ”All of these things, and more, so shall you do.”

~Namaste~
*deep bow*
Brian.

Re: Who Awakens?

Awesome Dave.. absolutely beautiful.  It is the impulse to awaken which arises.. and only when the ego engages and decides to take charge does an “I” element enter into the picture. 
much love,
John