Gaia: The Depths - Explorations beyond the Surface

Creation Spirituality ... Matthew Fox...

Tue, 22 May 2007 17:27:40 GMT

This is information about a former Roman Catholic Priest who is a visionary pushing for change in religious viewpoints and approaches. more at the following links:

Wikipedia Entry - Matthew Fox

MatthewFox.com - Home Page

This Dance - Poem by Jewel Mathieson

Wed, 16 May 2007 04:33:24 GMT

We have come to be danced
Not the pretty dance
Not the pretty pretty, pick me, pick me dance
But the claw our way back into the belly
Of the sacred, sensual animal dance
The unhinged, unplugged, cat is out of its box dance
The holding the precious moment in the palms
Of our hands and feet dance.

We have come to be danced
Not the jiffy booby, shake your booty for him dance
But the wring the sadness from our skin dance
The blow the chip off our shoulder dance.
The slap the apology from our posture dance.

We have come to be danced
Not the monkey see, monkey do dance
One two dance like you
One two three, dance like me dance
But the grave robber, tomb stalker
Tearing scabs and scars open dance
The rub the rhythm raw against our soul dance.

We have come to be danced
Not the nice, invisible, self-conscious shuffle
But the matted hair flying, voodoo mama
Shaman shaking ancient bones dance
The strip us from our casings, return our wings
Sharpen our claws and tongues dance
The shed dead cells and slip into
The luminous skin of love dance.

We have come to be danced
Not the hold our breath and wallow in the shallow end of the floor dance
But the meeting of the trinity: the body, breath and beat dance The
shout hallelujah from the top of our thighs dance The mother may I? Yes
you may take ten giant leaps dance The olly olly oxen free free free
dance The everyone can come to our heaven dance.

We have come to be danced Where the kingdoms collide
In the cathedral of flesh To burn back into the light
To unravel, to play, to fly, to pray
To root in skin sanctuary
We have come to be danced! We have come.

~ by Jewel Mathieson
from her book This Dance: A Poultice of Poems

Re: Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shamin

Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:25:28 GMT

i liked particularly....

"facing our fears can be a little bit to exciting for our rational mind"

nicely said.

-d

Re: Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shamin

http://makeopono.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:46:32 GMT

The spectrum of emotions is a double edged sword and we have a choice we can either accept what comes up in our emotional body as valuable sacred and worthy of teaching us a thing or two or we can run away from it. So it goes that it is sometimes more comfortable in the shortrun to sideline our true feelings, facing our fears can be a little bit to exciting for uor rational mind. Shame, apathy, guilt, fear, greif, anger none of these are wholly accepted by the rational mind and the ego in the end these aspects of the personality are not comfortable with the vulnerability embracing these emotions would entail because it would subject them to dissolution. I am am all for going to that place within that scares you witless and giving your creepiest demon a big fat bearhug. Grateful, Makeo

Re: Introductions/Backgrounds/Intentions

Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:11:24 GMT

yay! love it jung at heart! love it.

love it when people start delving into their inner depths. love that you have started a group. i as well have been taken by the jungian ideas, but not really through jung directly which i have found fascinating. has all been through the people who were his proteges essentially (james hillman, arny mindell (aka arnold mindell), and robert a. johnson.)

parenting is this whole experience that i don't have in quite the same way. sometimes i think that has its pluses and minuses. i have a lot of friends who are gay fathers though. friends who married, had kids and then faced the fact that their lives were not working and well, that was access to their crisis that woke them up a bit more to the process of individuation.

debt can be an intense thing to go through. i personally found myself filing for bankruptcy following 9/11 and its effect on my business which i had already been managing the funds poorly for. spending money under a lot of delusions. partly chasing a fancy life much of which was motivated by a desire to keep up with the jones's which in my case were friends who happened to be older than i and further along in their careers by 10 or more years and much of which was just purely looking to fill the emotional void with shopping and of course our culture is only too happy to help us do that. i had creditors happy to help me hang myself essentially. when i was fighitng to not have to file bankruptcy after 9/11 i was told by one creditor calling me as often as they could (daily or every 2-3 days), that they didn't care if i filed bankruptcy because they were insured. made me angry that not only do they collect the interests rates they collect, but they are also insured. so for them it was in their interest that i either pay soon or file bankruptcy, which i resisted a while and then did.

not saying that is your answer, and that answer didn't handle the whole equation for me certainly.

i think it is admirable that you did put yourself in therapy. living paycheck to paycheck is an interesting thing. has a certain stigma socially and yet so many do it. in traditional cultures there wasn't really exactly paychecks, there was soil to plant and all that fun stuff, so they lived season to season for the most part. not sure to what degree you are integrating spirit into your journey and things like prayer/meditation/chanting, but i have found for me that they mix well with the jung stuff. i was doing all that prior to my experience with the jungian ideas and approaches.

modern culture is challenging for a lot of people to have any sense of soul in. challenging for people to take the time to do inner work and there is this assumption that one should get through it and be done among so many, or that if one is doing it that one 'has problems'. so we are faced with a lot of cultural resistance and social obstacles on our journeys. jungs ideas are not fast easy ideas and they give a different experience than a lot of other ideas.

before i was formally exposed to the ideas around jung i was exposed to hinduism and tibetan buddhism which both were wells that jung seemed to draw from and certainly are wells that his followers have drawn from.

as far as your mention of your challenges, i would encourage you to relate to them a bit differently than you seem to be, but a lot of that would need a spiritual framework, even if just the hindu deities as myth/metaphor like many use them. the idea that these are opportunities for the transformation of your consciousness. the fear and resistance to your circumstances seems to be as much or more the issue than the circumstance itself at least thus far as you mention it.

i have very unique circumstances that i have feared and resisted the past few years. i have a genetic eye disease so i can't drive like i once was able to. i have felt called to live in utah where i cannot make money like i could in nyc, but for my own healing process and time with family and other issues i have felt called to stay in utah. i have been supported by friends and family which is not something i advocate for everyone, but yet in other cultures was embraced and is embraced much of the time. italians often are supported by family and living with them well into their 30's, and it can be good for the soul to coexist. or you see indian families sharing residences throughout their lives. i know for some of my friends support in these ways has been their answer at least short term. one friend went to med school in his thirties, and had to do his pre med work and wound up staying with a professor friend of his (who i also got to know) who put him up in his basement for a few years and helped cover the expenses of my friend and his partner as he did the coursework.
i like joseph campbell's view of following the strands of energy and how doors will open. he never had a degree formally, but got an honorary degree and wound up as a professor himself. i think your fear of not having a degree may limit your ability to follow from within or at least i don't hear you talking along those lines so far.

i may start a thread or two to discuss some ideas like that if we don't already have them going in which case i may add to them. but definitely feels like some things worth exploring within the group. if you would like to discuss at least a bit of that with me individually feel free to e-mail me personally here and i would be happy to explore that a bit as far as how that may apply to things specifically and more personally. not that i necessarily have 'the' answers or 'your' answers, but maybe at least some options and perspectives worth exploring and/or adding to your mix.

energetically speaking the fear and angst though are a contraction of the energy and shut you down in different ways that you probably don't want to be shut down and experiencing things.

Re: Introductions/Backgrounds/Intentions

http://JungatHeart.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 05:28:48 GMT

Thanks for having this pod David. I hope to continue exploring and contributing to Soul here...

OK...um...yeah...about me...well, up till the last 2-7 years I've really been asleep, closed-minded and narrow-focused. My ego consciousness was the only lens through which I could see, attempt control or define the world and 'Reality' with...I was polarized and held much in contempt. I didn't "get" art, myth, poetry, symbolism (I still don't, but am now in love with it!), and generally speaking anything metaphorical...The world of metaphor now connects me with a wider world of possibilities & potentials! I'm now waking up, and opening up!

What changed? Well, my father passed away Christmas eve, 2001(that was a major milestone). Then, about 2 years ago after turning 41 (officially mid-life) and nearing imminent first time fatherhood I knew I needed depth therapy...I had classical existential angst, financial debt & dread, general depression and occasional suicide fantasies... Previously, I sought therapy (many times in the last 23 years or so) but it never got through. Then I read Robert Johnson's "Owning Your Own Shadow" and a tiny mustard seed was planted. Things started to change.

I doggedly pursued Jungian analysis and finally got in with a great analyst and we started going deep into my psyche (well, a hell of a lot deeper than I ever ventured anyhow). Now I'm hooked! It's helping but...

...there's a lot of hard life stuff I'm facing like the fact that I'm a non-degreed "engineer" in the high-tech world of defense aerospace industry where lay-offs always loom; have a HUGE outstanding 6 figure student loan (my wife's) hanging over our heads, major IRS debt, live paycheck-to-paycheck with limited secondary income from my wife's jobs; we don't own a house (renting...for life); I'm often stressed out dealing with lots of negativity at work, trying to raise a little pterodactyl two-year old son and...bitch, bitch, bitch - you get the picture.

Anyhow, I'm so taken with Jung that I've started a local club where we gather to explore Jung's thoughts, concepts & writings (also a lot of audio/visual materials recorded on film, video & CD/tape). It's only 2 months old but we have a half dozen folks meeting in a quaint used bookstore twice a month...

I'm a big fan of Thomas Moore's recorded lectures & writings on the soul. Also seriously studying James Hollis' lectures, books and work on asking important questions of ourselves, not necessarily seeking hard & fast answers; second half of life issues, and the vocatus our soul or Self is calling us to live our life apart from our social roles (i.e. individuation). I'm enamored with the late poet John Keats' term, 'Negative Capability':
"...I mean Negative Capability, that is when man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact & reason..."

That's enough for now.

Re: Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shamin

http://mclay.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:39:44 GMT

"leave your emotions at home" also happens a great deal in school and even the doctors office. Teachers are no longer allowed to spank children in school which I think is a good thing but teachers are not allowed to hug either. The abuse of so many people suing people for "mis-conduct" makes many people afraid to touch or look at each other with any emotions attached. It may have protected some potential sexual abuse but what about the emotional abuse that it now creates. Neglect may be a better word. When a child is hurt and goes to the teacher the best that teater can do is say "it's OK" and maybe give a pat on the shoulder. No advice, no opinions and no touching. What a sterile world our children are coming into.

Then your doctor shares with you that you have a fatal disease and you melt down. As much as he may want to comfort you he or she, usually for liability, must not get involved, emotionally or physically. Again maybe a pat on the shoulder. Why?

I saw that special on Oprah's new school in Africa. WOW! those kids were alive! Bursting with emotions. They were not just "happy" to be part of that school they were H-A-P-P-Y! There was contact, support, love, and dreams. These girls were not just dreamers, they are going somewhere with their life and nothing is going to stop them. I think here in the states as a "protective measure" one might say "don't get too excited, things might not turn out as you wish", and part of what drives us into success is suppressed so that we "don't feel disappointed". Funny thing is...I think, whether you keep your excitement "in check" or let it flow, if you hit disappointment the feeling is not minimized, so might as well feel all the excitment and joy you can when it is sitting in you wanting to get out.

Re: Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shamin

http://funny-shocking.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:09:11 GMT

sorry, I pushed 'send post' twice and got the repeat

Re: Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shamin

http://funny-shocking.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:05:30 GMT

very interesting post David,
The thing that immediately occurs to me is that fear is the source of most problems. It's true though that some of our more esoteric endeavors don't fit well into the work day (except maybe during break time discussions). We must be brave enough to hold on to our own level of understanding and areas of interest whether they appear to fit in to society (work society too) or not. If we allow ourselves our individuality, it will become natural to allow others their differences. Avoiding fear is most important: fear of being scorned, fear of not fitting in, fear of being ridiculed.
We have a sort of 'pseudo' culture that consists of commercialism, social standing (how wealthy, healthy and what accomplishments) and of course egotism. True culture consists of our level of understanding of deeper questions. We all use different tools to understand what is real, important and good. Herd mentality isn't real culture.

Re: Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shamin

http://funny-shocking.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:04:39 GMT

Emotional Erraticism ... Emotional Denial... Emotional Shaming

Tue, 10 Apr 2007 20:55:50 GMT

how is our culture (american specifically, but also modern culture as well in many cases) relating to emotions? at what cost is this occurring? what do we lose by medicating so many of our emotions? what do we lose by not expressing them? what do other cultures have that are more open to sharing their emotions? what do they have that we don't? what do we have that they don't? is it worth preserving what we have at the expense of the costs? or is it worth considering other options?

at work people say 'leave your personal life at home' or 'emotions are not for business'. what do we lose to that way of thinking?

if one looks at the heart of other cultures with less shame around their emotions, would we want some of that heart? is our cold heartedness giving us what we want?

if we look at modern design in many cases it is colder than designs of yesteryear and other cultures. is that mirroring the emotional disconnection occurring in those who are not dealing with their emotions through drinking, smoking, drugs, or medications? clearly there are those who use substances on occasion who face emotions, but there are also clearly many who use it to avoid their pains or communicating things that don't work.

is what we save worth what we lose in the current arrangements? are many 'disorders' a function of our relationship to emotions and the built up emotions of people who have been traumatized and either are ashamed to seek out therapy or told that it is purely a chemical imbalance when it has more to do with emotions? it is a function of our search for quick fixes and to keep things 'nice' rather than to face our societal demons?

what occurs over time in the lives of those who face their emotions. how do they feel about life as a whole? where does their journey take them? what happens in the lives of those who do not face their emotions? where does their journey lead? what paths do we want to be taking? what assumptions do we want to make?

Introductions - David's Intro

Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:14:55 GMT

hi jason... thanks for posting your introduction. fun to have this thread started. others as well of course are invited and encouraged to post here as they may be drawn, no matter where in the journey they are. helps to know who is watching the threads and interested.

here is my intro -

i am still sorting out what my role is now and moving forward. i have been reading this book called 'a simpler way' and it talks about the self organizing nature of the universe particularly in regards to groups and organizations. very much enjoying it. at some point in the book they (a man and woman co-authored the book) discuss how in a self organizing universe we cannot so much see ahead much of the time so much as where we have been, so here is where i have been and the pieces i have at the moment.

first, one can look at my current profile and see a lot of the divisions of my life and comments from the angle that i offered there. my life has been an exploration of a lot of different things and in the process it seemed somewhat random and disjointed. over time i think of it more like a fabric that has woven itself together and/or is in the process of doing so.

the last number of years i have done extensive reading about the soul, consciousness, energy, buddhism, hinduism, mysticism, art, design, and a variety of other topics. over time it seems like i am essentially focused on being a catalyst for others. on being a johnny appleseed of sorts. planting a lot of seeds. exposing people to books. helping leaders see where they can use consciousness and just essentially working to have what one friend called 'God's eye view'. for me i don't use that term egocentrically and ultimately i don't feel like i have that view so much as a view that is a bit more expansive than working within any one system. seeing how systems are interfacing and what patterns have happened through history and what challenges we are facing now that may be new or similar.

my interest is where possible to glean from the past while still embracing the present and the future where useful and relevant. i am interested in all sorts of topics and applying ideas around consciousness and energy to them and issues within those realms. i am interested in patterns and themes that emerge both within individual areas and within systems as a whole. i am interested in finding ways of drawing on modern societal opportunities and structures while really grounding our spirits and souls where possible. i find these times both challenging and stimulating creatively. very exciting times in many ways. a lot of flux occurring and i find myself drawn to understand to the best of my ability what is occurring and to help others do the same especially those in positions of leadership and service, but really i think this information is useful to just about anyone who may be interested and willing to learn and consider things.

a lot of what i am interested in is tying together a lot of the wisdom of experience of so many different people in so many different fields. synthesizing the information in ways that are practical and accessible at least for the right people. that is a somewhat complex task and i think that my audience may in fact be certain people whose audiences are others and they understand the needs and perspectives of that particular group better than i can as an individual.

beyond that i love connecting people to different things. pointing them to a yoga center or a book or a teacher who may be of use to them. i love working with people who have strong roots in one path and helping them glean key pieces for their path that will suit them and help them and others within their path. increasingly i have the key people i work with in life around me. people who have been with me in one form or other for years as friends and confidants and collaborators and they have those in their groups. sometimes one falls away and others come in or one who i have worked with naturally takes time to focus on other things. so far i haven't had anyone die on me thankfully, but i expect at some point that will occur as well. some may consider that 'negative' thinking. i consider that to be conscious in the journey of life beyond the moment and to align efforts accordingly. to appreciate what we have when we have it and to live life to the fullest often means at least to me to know the impermance of it all, particularly the impermanence of us as individuals. as such i work to share what i have and to build structures that go beyond myself as an individual.

also, i figure if the buddhists and hindus are right and i reincarnate then the more seeds i plant in more places, the better off i am as far as finding what has been so useful to me in this lifetime.

so far i have not been compelled to learn other languages, although at times it seems i may be called to learn french which has been a language of interest to me since a child. that said, it seems that i have many friends who do speak other languages and i hope that the seeds spread that way to the places they need to be as they need to be there.

ultimately my hope is to be the flow for the energy that is called through me at any given point. for now i am called to share and learn as much as possible where i am called to do so. i expect i will ultimately be writing books and continuing to teach and work with people and the issues that come up along the way. to be where i am called to be when i am called to be there. doing what i am called to be doing. if that is art by myself in the desert then fine. if it is reading in my small basement bedroom where i am now (my modern yogic cave) then that is fine. if that is sharing ideas about food and cooking then fine. whatever it may be along the way my interest is to surrender as best i can and to be an instrument of spirit.

that would essentially be where i am at the moment. as i said, my profile includes further for those interested and my current blog has information as well at the moment (i delete and change both up as called to do so, so you may suddenly find a clear blog or a clear profile). yes i know many enjoy archives, but it hasn't been what i am called to do thus far around the blog, although sometimes i revisit similar subjects from similar and/or different angles.

Re: Myth and Storytelling and the future of it

http://mclay.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:35:55 GMT

Slooooow to load but very interesting. I checked out we feel fine and it is very much like reaching into the collective universe and extracting a sentence. Some sweet and some dark some completely random. I like how it compiles the emotions too.

Re: Introductions/Backgrounds/Intentions

http://mclay.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:06:41 GMT

Hello, Jason here, I am a massage therapist, a student (BS in health education, I graduate in May) Then I start acupuncture college in Sept.

I love the healing arts, touching people, listening, creating environments of peace and relaxation. Just to be there for someone, sometimes a complete stranger, and know that an exchange of kindness has occured...That, is what drives me to be in this field of health.

My spiritual journey began with Shirley MacClaine's book Out On A Limb. So many of my questions and thoughts were brought out of the closet because, finally ,somebody else wrote a book about their experience and I knew I was not alone in this place of wonderment.

Then I went to work at the Light Institue with Chris Griscom in Galisteo, NM. She just blew me away with her sweet charm and mystical nature. She would so often answer a question with a question. I would get sooooooooo frustrated. JUST TELL ME THE ANSWERS! he he he. Now I appreciate that gift she gave me. I question things, then I question the question, then I get it...or I don't lol and that's cool too.

Since then I have explored many religions and schools of thought and having all these pieces I can sort of put a bit of the puzzle of my life into context. I am loving how it is coming together.

Thank you David, yet another teacher on the path. I like how you think.

Jason

Re: Introductions/Backgrounds/Intentions

Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:12:35 GMT

hi david...

welcome to the group. you are welcome to read through the past threads and add your thoughts/comments as well as to post topics and discussion which you may want to explore. and of course welcome to introduce yourself on this thread as well.

om...
d

Re: Introductions/Backgrounds/Intentions

http://haledavid1.gaia.com — Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:22:50 GMT

Hello - just out stumbling around zaadz today and seeing all the new members and stuff that's been put up. This looks to be a very great pod that could sprout some great discussions.

Saying a quick Hi right now and will set notifications and check back to see what's happening.

Blessings, David

Myth and Storytelling and the future of it

Sun, 01 Apr 2007 23:45:15 GMT

http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2007/03/jonathan_harris.php

a little video that some may enjoy. (push play on that screen)

Re: mixed path/merging spirituality as evolving in america and be

Sun, 01 Apr 2007 23:07:19 GMT

trish...

okay, dalai lama stuff. my view. first, these days i am more into hinduism than tibetan buddhism as a base, but both have their problems and i don't fully ascribe to either one. they both have their politics and a lot of assumptions around them.

dalai lama... he is a person. a person from a particular culture. in tibetan buddhism he is considered a bodhisattva. bodhisattvas are said to postpone their own enlightenment until all others are enlightened. the irony is, he says at times that this person or that person is enlightened. a bit odd if you ask me.

i like the guy. he has a good energy as a whole. i saw him in nyc central park speaking. he has something sweet about him definitely. i think he has some good insight, but i think so much of who he speaks to is the masses both of tibet and america. as a result you naturally get a certain one size fits all approach that doesn't seem very workable or sophisticated to me much of the time with a religion that talks about 88,000 paths. of course to even voice this in a public forum i cringe a bit because for so many to think about stuff like this and voice it is a certain sacrilege. he is a whole big to do for people and an amazing to do. i would love time with him. i certainly don't put myself above him, but i question his insight on certain western culture things and like many older people in this day and age i value aspects of their insight, but the game keeps changing so much that i don't take it without question or assume that their perception is all encompassing.

i figure i could probably learn a lot from the man. at the same time, his thinking and his role is to be a dual religious figure and political leader. it all gets fairly complex. on gay issues i wouldn't trust him any more than i would trust most christian leaders. fact is, those views and consciousness around gay issues is growing and evolving. likewise, i wouldn't trust most religions on women's issues which are evolving a lot in larger contexts.

i think like i believe bill talked about that we have a lot of things that give us broader contexts these days with the web and just ability to learn about the mind through scans and tests through science and different views and social groups that explore ideas.

for me the dalai lama is not the last word on tibetan buddhism. i think some of the tibetan buddhist teachers like trungpa are interesting - he was considered brilliant and an alcoholic with a variety of issues by many in his group and outside his group. osho who was criticized by many, and at some point i think the dalai lama called him 'enlightened' in a specific quote. i figure that the tibetan teachers who have worked more one on one with people over time in this culture may be better people to pay attention to as they work to adapt their teachings and educate people from this culture and see what works and what does not.

in tibetan buddhism i think lama surya das who is jewish is interesting, robert thurman who is uma thurman's dad and a respected buddhist scholar is interesting, tarthang tulku who taught in the berkley area and i think still does. trungpa. pema chodron who is canadian i think and working on monasteries in this country and writes a lot here and was a student of trungpa. reginald ray is american and was a student of trungpa and has written some interesting books on nyingma tradition of tibetan buddhism. some tibetans don't view the dalai lama as their leader either which has caused some conflict a times. there are four major schools of tibetan buddhism which have their own variations, but tend to overall synch well together.

buddhism came and cleaned up hinduism in some ways, and that helped a fair amount and offered other alternatives to hinduism. but i think after 400 years for buddhism to need some evolution and change especially as it meets a new culture or a variety of new cultures is not a bad thing.

i know that zen has its issues and i am quick to point them out at times, but there is also some grace and beauty there. i think also tibetan buddhism is the same. definitely some oppression that has gone on. hinduism as well. a lot of power and manipulation through hinduism that occurs. but yet some of the most amazing distinctions as well i think. mormonism too i feel the same way about. amazing things to cultivate from mormonism.

mormons are fascinating with community. fascinating with structure. buddhists are interesting with emotional intelligence i think. hindus have some refined ideas around consciousness. i do think critically speaking there are areas of development that so many different groups have that others don't have. i don't think it is egocentric to say that so much any more than to look at europe and its strengths and weaknesses and america and what we have and don't have and look to evolve things.

religions can be like one mass organization at times it seems. and of course many times like many small organizations. so many lessons. so many story arcs.

anyhow. food for your thought. glad to have you thinking and support your contemplation/journey.

Re: mixed path/merging spirituality as evolving in america and be

http://wishytrishy.gaia.com — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:11:27 GMT

Indeed it was useful David and thanks for taking the time to go into such detail. My apologies for taking so long to reply, I have had some pretty pressing issues to deal with this week but not least amongst them has been just how to reply to your findings. I know I can be an opinionated fool at times but really, never, at any time mean to cause offence.

Most people are amazingly spiritual even though they have never read or discussed a lot of the things on offer, come to that - im not sure that reading is actually a pre-requisite of spirituality. I think a given destination may be arrived at via many different paths. I can't bring myself to conform to any form of religion from north south east or west, in my opinion, they are all forms of control and find that the totalitarianism of their absolutes not only chokes progress but also lends its adherents to subjugation.

"from a mystic point of view, all the outer poverty and issues may be important to work with, but the inner poverty is just as important to address. there are people with great wealth who are hateful, disconnected, abusive, etc... (and people with great wealth of course who are not) and people with great outward poverty who are loving and nurturing and supportive. there are countless stories of grace among the poor of india (and countless other places as well)". - David

I agree wholeheartedly with your above statement. It is indeed one of the driving forces in my life and wholly recognised by millions like me. Inner poverty is the essence here and to me the whole point of this debate. This is the very thing which alarms me about the world today. The very inner poverty of the fundamentalists which has been used to exploit to the point of rape - how many people who call themselves Christian or Buddhist or Hindu, Jew or whatever, simply do not live up to the basic tenets of that teaching, they will go to work each day for the multi nationals or the chemical companies or fight the wars on behalf of the politicians and excuse themselves by the use of platitudes - I have to make a living, my family depends on me - blah blah - its all the same - they are buying into the rape of the planet and its peoples then they go home to...... meditate - on self !!!!!!!!!!!! - no wonder the sale of sedatives is so huge.

I think a very high percentage of the world population identify with one religion or another but for myself, if this is a true illustration of the benefits of religious thinking then until someone can disavow me of these beliefs I feel I must continue on my path of free thinking. Just what is the point in having all these wonderful elaborate teachings if only a few actually take them to heart whilst millions more merely pay lip service because they are afraid of the disapproval of their peers and families - maybe religion is actually clouding the real issues in society.

Merging spiritualities suggests a shift in thinking on a very large scale and yes, I do think it is happening, people are discontent with the dictates of pedagogic totalitarianism and the shift is leading them to organise into more creative forms of consciousness where we don't just feel from the heart but we ‘act' from that centeredness too, we help with the community, with the environment, and yes, I agree with you David, not necessarily through protest marches etc but simple discussion, ...................... Preparedness to show the strength of our convictions, to question not only the larger issues but also attitudes in individuals we may encounter at any stage in our journey - its just so easy to pick a small piece of a comment and ask for clarification from someone, to discuss.

In the spirit of unconditional love all merges into one anyway - we all want the same thing. I don't have a car because it would be more of a burden than a blessing and this enables me to interact with lots of people who I would never otherwise meet, to hear their views and observe their mannerisms. To speak to some of these people of the higher mysteries of life would have me living with the label of ‘village idiot ' (very small community) - so I don't, not with the majority at least, but I do make comments here and there with the objective of leaving something to think about or try to open conversations around things like; who has influenced their lives and why or how they find such things important - totally selfish of course because it makes me feel good ! But were I to stand at the bus stop and advocate Buddhism or denounce Christianity I would probably be lynched - despite having been brought up a Catholic

I'm sure, as you say, that not all rich people are power hungry and that many of them do use their wealth for some form of common good but I do also think that money is traditionally the most powerful form of people control and corruption, because the whole of our society is based around its acquisition in order to house, feed and clothe ourselves. People are divided into the haves and have not's with the popular misconception being that the have not's are to blame for their own situation and are somehow less deserving of better education, housing, food etc, and that their emotional well being is their own look out - it isn't, it is encumbent on us all to relieve suffering of any form. For who knows where the next turn of the karmic wheel will leave us collectively if we do nothing once we have the knowledge.

The old order of things had us in awe of such riches, how happy it makes me to see this changing and to encounter more and more people who place their values on the riches to be found in the soul and who value giving above grabbing, and who see things from the global rather than personal perspective.

Any defeated people must come to know humility as in the case of the Tibetan Buddhists but even people who have never studied any of the religions or teachings of the world are still capable of enlightenment, through personal struggle people inevitably identify with what is right or wrong. The whole idea to my mind is not to hold any one person or set of guidelines in a state of exaltation but rather to glean the beauty of all. I really don't know enough of Buddhism's concepts of right and wrong to comment further and to do so would imply enlightenment on my part - I make no such claim. My statements are related to the question of the need to place one tradition of enlightenment above another. Indeed, my own belief is that we are all one and so being, that each of us are/is all God with the objective of using the good, for, and in, all we encounter.

"many of them work intensely to have compassion and consciousness rather than anger and hate. the evidence would be in their souls. perhaps they could fight the oppression, destroy, pillage, rape and murder their way back into their homelands, but they have in many ways surrendered (while still disputing in ways that they feel good about - non-violence and care/consideration) and in the process have also done a lot of serving and teaching others about living more consciously. " - David

I have no dispute here with your summation of the Tibetan Buddhists however I would like to draw your attention to this article which greatly alarmed me and on which I would like to hear your views;

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/07/13news.html

this is another such article;

http://shokai.blogspot.com/2005/08/buddhist-atrocities.html

I did start to look into Buddhism years ago but wasn't too taken at the time with the role of women, this is changing now for the better I believe. As religions go, I do think it is one of the good guys. I found the quote below quite important from someone who is listened to around the world.

"Responsibility does not only lie with the leaders of our countries or with those who have been appointed or elected to do a particular job. It lies with each one of us individually. Peace, for example, starts with each one of us. When we have inner peace, we can be at peace with those around us. When our community is in a state of peace, it can share that peace with neighbouring communities, and so on. When we feel love and kindness towards others, it not only makes others feel loved and cared for, but it helps us also to develop inner happiness and peace. And there are ways in which we can consciously work to develop feelings of love and kindness. For some of us, the most effective way to do so is through religious practice. For others it may be non-religious practices. What is important is that we each make a sincere effort to take our responsibility for each other and for the natural environment we live in seriously. " The 14th Dali Lama - Nobel Peace Prize 1989

Tee hee - I seem once again to have produced a plethora of ‘shoulds' - now, should I have a bit of a navel gaze about the concept of cause giving rise to need or indeed should I just go get on with my day - hmmmmmmmm

With love and thanks for the soul and mind searching you have given me this week

Re: Business and Soul

http://go.gaia.com — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:28:26 GMT

Thanks for posting that link, David. I'm going to check it out and report back later.