Gaia: Think Tank - Seeds and Appreciation - Seeds and Gardens

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://zetwhite.gaia.com — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:55:18 GMT

Yes, this can definitely work. I wonder what the team will say about this when they're done with the visual makeover of Zeedz/Gaia... Exciting possibilities!!!

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:49:33 GMT

Thanks Earon.

I wonder whether what I'm going to write should be on a new thread --- since this one does seem to be at least in hibernation.

Well -- for now I'll post here. I was mentioning the suggestion of seeds having a monetary significance and going towards financially supporting local ventures. Earlier it was suggested, (hmm, by another Dave I think, but I could be wrong) that the seeds could be revenue towards charities.

I mentioned all this to a zaadz friend and she told me about Kaioo - a German-born new social network site which does something similar: (or at least they say they do). In their case all advertising money goes to charity. This is what they say on their home page:

kaioo is the first REAL Social Community on the internet, because kaioo is:

Non-profit:
All advertising money goes to charity!
Democratic:
The users decide where the money goes!
Independent:
User data will not be shared with third parties!

Wiki also has a good outline of who/what they are.

Now I'm not suggesting this as a competitor to zaadz/gaia -- zaadz never set out to be a non-profit organization; and I'm not sure kaioo correctly defines an internet social community as being 'real' because it is non-profit.

Personally I would like to see us all here benefiting and enriching ourselves in everyway - financially, personally, spiritually and so on -- SO we can go out into the world or our local communities and share 'the wealth' by starting locally based enterprises which nourish and expand the local community, or by contributing to other enterprises which we feel benefit the whole.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://divineprimate.gaia.com — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:12:38 GMT

I had dropped out of the active discussion because it was getting a bit too day-dreamy for me at this time. Very creative and thoughtful, but a bit too complex with too many assumptions. Patrick expressed it well, pointing out that the Team had lost interest.

However, I would like to see the thread kept active for anyone who wants to keep going. It is so important for us to be able to express our hopes and dreams, so when there is even one other person there to witness, respond and co-create, it is something to be cherished. Whether the ideas and visions "go anywhere" in the future, I think that life is all about "the dance." Those interactive moments of give and take, yin and yang, in which we get to know another person, witness their thinking and dreams - that's a large part of why we're here.

The team may come and go in a thread, but this thread is also for us, and it remains beautiful and productive.

Peace,

Earon

Re: Seeds and Gardens

Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:22:20 GMT

I'd like to aknowlege C4's answer. Thank you for weighing in:

http://pods.zaadz.com/thinktank/discussions/view/206883#217203

My post was provocative:

http://pods.zaadz.com/thinktank/discussions/view/206883#217007

Basically I reacted for the following reasons:

- there are many wonderfull ideas given in this thread.

- There was few interaction with the Team

- we were going much to far in our thinking, completely re-designing Zaadz.

- the Team could actually not react, as it was way beyond what they're working on now, plus they don't want us to re-design Zaadz.

I like thinking about processes...I love it. But sometimes I get carried away, and it has no more concrete value, it is not what fits with the present moment.

That's what I felt with these threads.

Let us be happy,

Patrick

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:09:13 GMT

In the name of bringing energy to this thread, since the Bring Back the Bad Seeds one was closed ( thanks C4) - I'd like to address something that was concerning me - which was what Patrick mentioned: the seeming lack of team interaction here.

I then read Zet's post on the above thread. There is so much heart and love pouring out of it (imo) that I feel recharged and enlightened -- I am reminded of what my gut tells me - the team are taking notice, all the time.

If we as individuals and as a community stop contributing our voice on threads such as these just because there isn't enough feedback from the team then I don't see the point of being here at all.

So. Back to seeds and gardens.

I'm in agreement with more moderators (gardeners) as well as tech tools such as the seed system to support my involvement here. As I said on the previous thread regarding my 'human' interaction on the pod I moderate:

I would have dearly loved the help of some 'algorithm' to point me to 'challenging' areas; I simply can't keep up with it all. I am sure this is partly what inspired the team to set the seed system up in the first place. Yes, I can get more moderators and I will - and still, I see that there is a use for technology.

The zaadz/gaia team is small compared to the numbers here. I have 6 moderators on a 400+ member pod, plus myself. It's not enough, so I cannot imagine what it's like for the z/g team to keep up with us all. We need whatever tools we can get to support this beautiful garden.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:26:51 GMT

:-) Zet: Make a Difference - yellow (daffodil?), Environment - green (bamboo?), etc. Whenever we post a comment to a piece of content, instead of “I like it” we can have “give a flower!” with two drop-down lists of how many flowers to give and what type of flower.

Oh, this is such a cute Idea I love it. You have almost made me let go of my attachment to being able to categorize content (eg: Challenging; inspiring; uplifting; made me think; possibly contravenes T&C of Gaia) etc. Polka dot flower for 'witty' material?? ;-)

As for: Thinking in terms of ”resonating” with posts/authors, it sounds good but does not form a complete imagery, because “seeds” and not “vibes” are used on Zaadz.

Well, maybe you can involve the quantum mechanic vibration/ frequency / wavelength approach? :-) Zet: Make a Difference - yellow (daffodil?), Environment - green (bamboo?), etc. Whenever we post a comment to a piece of content, instead of “I like it” we can have “give a flower!” with two drop-down lists of how many flowers to give and what type of flower.

Oh, this is such a cute Idea I love it. You have almost made me let go of my attachment to being able to categorize content (eg: Challenging; inspiring; uplifting; made me think; possibly contravenes T&C of Gaia) etc. Polka dot flower for 'witty' material?? ;-)

As for: Thinking in terms of ”resonating” with posts/authors, it sounds good but does not form a complete imagery, because “seeds” and not “vibes” are used on Zaadz.

Well, maybe you can involve the quantum mechanic vibration/ frequency / wavelength approach? i.e. seeds do have a 'vibe'. Maybe a 'glowing' seed for 'resonating' with a piece of content or person?

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://zetwhite.gaia.com — Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:19:50 GMT

C4Chaos, and the team, thank you for the recent update of seeds description! It addressed most of the issues I brought up here originally. It's clear and understandable, and its language goes away from repeating it's a trust and reputation system. I was almost about to point out how C4 just bought all that terminology back in this pod... But on the actual description page there are only one or two mentions of it being a trust/reputation system, so it's ok. And I think the two "trust" reminders can be removed altogether.

Also, Siona has revealed how many seeds (~30,000) have been used so far, which is great, but I hope the team is developing a little counter for the main page?..

Continuing the thread:

1. Imagery language. Siona pointed out you were thinking in terms of "resonating" with posts/authors, it sounds good but does not form a complete imagery, because "seeds" and not "vibes" are used on Zaadz. But I'll certainly try to play around with that. For now, look at the wonderful pictures on Zaadz banners: the "flying seeds" spread by the wind. What do those seeds grow to be? And in case of "rating" content, imagine going along a street and overhearing an interesting conversation in one of the yards. You come closer and listen to the beautiful words spoken. As you leave, you take out your little sack of seeds and think: how can I use this seed to show appreciation for this conversation? How can I show others that this topic is beautiful? Beautiful... Like a flower! So you plant a flower. And then others are attracted to the most blooming topics.

2. Various hues of rating content. A single "I Like It" is limited and monochrome, working only for one "hot" page. Why limit ourselves in this way? We have a whole spectrum of colours to choose from! And remember, we are now linked to Gaia.com, and a lot of content on Zaadz is worthy of a spotlight on Gaia. I propose to use a different colour scheme for each main section of Gaia.com, and then link it to the colour of a "flower" we choose to "plant" for content and pods that we like. For example, Relationships - red (rose?), Spirituality - white/yellow (lotus?), Make a Difference - yellow (daffodil?), Environment - green (bamboo?), etc. Whenever we post a comment to a piece of content, instead of "I like it" we can have "give a flower!" with two drop-down lists of how many flowers to give and what type of flower. Note that the default option, for comments on content, would be "give_one_flower", and that is done if we just click "post comment" ignoring the seeds system. (Any comment should generate a seed as well as use one).

3. Instead of controversal "negative" rating, an option to be available on the drop-down list for numbers of flowers given, to not give any flowers. If we just dont really like the post or blog, we can just not give it any seeds with our comments. This will keep a "sorting personal differences" type of dialogue out of the "hots". Also, this will not only enable thematic sorting through "flower colour", but rating sorting through the number of flowers given: the greater the person's seedcount (beacon/garden), the more seeds are available for him to give in the drop-down list. (Now there is no control over this.)

4. Folding/hiding of questionable content should be available for the authors of such content. If someone desperately needs an emotional release, he can intentionally "hide/fold" it from sensitive others, but not from the ones who don't mind reading and engaging in constructive, transformational dialogue.

5. A "total seeds given/planted" counter would be great for the Zaadz main page. If the colour-based content rating is taken on, it can show the proportion in colours.

6. Seeds used to physical charity from sponsors - (described earlier) please share your thoughts on this idea, how realistic is it at least in the long term?

7. The Beacon to be a link to at least a java pop-up with some sort of more detailed data on a personal "garden". I'm not sure this will be effective if no "green" imagery is used though.

(What did I forget? :-) )

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://mqs.gaia.com — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:01:41 GMT

DavidC,

A huge and warm welcome to your presence. I loved reading your post and ask that you become hopelessly lost and trapped here forever. (heh heh)

Best,
Michael

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 19:43:44 GMT

DavidC:

Zet: Zaadz needs to grow economically, and however weird this sounds, this should be in our interest.

Yes, yes! Your suggestion that Zaadz offers advertisers a way of 'giving back' is a great way to get seeds to work in the real world. So advertiser dollars goes to Zaadz/Gaia community project for example and Zaadsters give seeds to the idea they'd like to grow. This would be a direct way that we, the Zaadz community ,could manifest our vision into the larger community of the world.

I love this idea, DavidC (getting confusing here with two Davids..)!

I believe that one of Gaia's long term wishes is to support local enterprises - how wonderful if these were Gaia community inspired 'enterprises' or projects .... (which, of course, align with the 'mission' of Gaia - re changing the world).

eg - - (once running costs be covered etc) - every month (or..) an advertiser's money goes towards funding a Gaia community inspired project -- and we as community members not only put forward our 'projects'/('gardens') for such funding, but we as a community use our seeds to say which 'garden' (project/enterprise) we would like to see grow at any given time. Perhaps this is where 'weight' comes in -- a person whose seeds 'weigh' more, their seeds count for more in the 'seeding which garden project' decision.

I think this is pretty much your suggestion, yes?

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://drane.gaia.com — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 12:17:22 GMT

David wrote:
The concern idea doesn't sit well with me for a couple of reasons:

1) It would make it too easy for people just to send them out, perhaps a group or clique, and cause trouble for the person via moderators rather than try to work with the person out of a sense of care. This careful interaction and engagement is the most important thing. People have to first try working it out themselves, but many people are too cynical and lazy and would find it too easy to just send out a “concern.”

Two things come to mind here. One I've already said on a number of occasions: when a person sows a seed on the concern side of the street in particular, they can be asked to confirm it (as already happens with the flags for review) and be encouraged to also engage the person verbally, maybe even providing a link to a blog entry or pod thread that discusses techniques of reverent communication or something similar (and/or Zaadz policy guidelines) in order to help the person understand how they can dialogue with another member who's pushing their buttons for some reason.

The second is that skillful wording of the concern seeds could also encourage a bit of reflection before choosing the seed that fits the situation best. Things like "I'm feeling some buttons being pushed" or "I feel uncomfortable reading this". These are a couple of initial ideas off the top of my head, but the point is that they would focus on the seed sower's internal feelings, rather than on the person or content for which the seed is being sown.

I think both of these things would actually help add value to the dialogue, rather than taking away from it.

David continued:
2) It would discourage people from speaking their minds, favoring the pluralistic value sphere and at the same time crowding out minority opinions–and it really would do this, Grey.

And you know this how exactly? As others have pointed out, this seeds system is very much a work in progress, and I think there's a lot of potential to make it something truly innovative. Sure, there are some issues to be pondered concerning span vs. depth, but the system is intended to bring out minority opinion, not suppress it, and it seems to me that it has a lot of potential to achieve that goal.

And:
These “concerns” are really unnecessary, as people have people have pointed out–the system is already self-regulating.

And as people have also pointed out, it's self-regulating now, but why should we expect it to continue self-regulating as the community grows without getting creative with something like this seeds system?

And this one I really like:
It does seem to me you are on a bit of a witch hunt. Comments like the one you made about people continually pushing the bounds of good behavior being more of a threat to the community than even the egregious violators are not grounded in reality–it's just not happening.

A witch hunt? Where did that come from?

My example of a theoretical person pushing the limits of being a responsible member of the community was merely an example of what could very well happen, particularly as the community grows, not a claim that it was already a major threat to be dealt with, although I'm not convinced by your claim that it's not happening at all. It may not be a serious problem, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no community members that have a tendency to push the limits a little too far.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that a hypothetical person like this (which concern seeds, or whatever we decide to call them if they're ever implemented, could help detect) could, in my opinion, be more of a threat to the wellbeing of the community than a person who makes a mistake and clearly violates community policy just once (which the flag-for-review function is designed for).

But even that doesn't mean that I would necessarily want to see a person like this kicked out of the community. In fact, it may very well be that they are pushing buttons that need to be pushed, so it may be that the people expressing concern need more support (in order to see the value of the weeds, for example) than the person doing the button pushing. A seeds system with concern seeds would help the admins or whoever (volunteers as you've suggested) to notice the situation, evaluate it, and decide what support to give or action to take.

Finally:
3) What would be patently unfair about the concerns is if they were to become divorced from the situation in which they had occured.

I don't know if this is directed at me or is just for general discussion, but I have never suggested that the seeds be divorced from the situation in which they had occurred. I agree that this would be a bad thing, but I don't think anyone has suggested that this would be how the system is designed. It seems to me that the system could always track what content a seed was sown for and who sowed a given seed. I mean, how else could seeds help promote members and their content if they don't remain connected to that content?

I don't think this information should be public knowledge, because I think seed sowing needs to remain anonymous, but the admins and moderators should have access to that information in order to assess situations and decide how to deal with them. And I would think that, in most situations, they could provide the needed support to both the sowers and "sowees" without having to disclose seed sowing specifics.

As ~C4Chaos has said (I think it was him anyway, but maybe it was Siona), the seeds system is a reality, so rather than talking about why it shouldn't be implemented, let's talk about ways of making it a truly innovative tool in promoting a sustainable community.

So for example, rather than just saying that the seeds promote pluralism (as if that's reason enough to abolish the system), let's talk about when exactly that might not be what's best for the community and kick around ideas for dealing with those situations. Let's not forget that healthy pluralism is actually a good thing, not something to be eradicated at all costs.

With love,
Grey

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://monk.gaia.com — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:36:09 GMT

David: The idea that the "reputations" people accumulate could eventually be held against them is quite monstrous. This is like, at the end of the trial, a lawyer turning to the jury and saying, "Ladies and gentleman, in addition to the evidence I've presented, 72 of this man's fellow citizens have said that they don't care for what he has to say. In addition, they say he irritates them. Please bear that in mind during your deliberations."

Grey: No, I don't think that it is the same thing, David. Well, actually, as the seeds system is currently implemented with only good seeds and no concern side to the equation, maybe it actually sort of is the same thing. But if we add concern to the equation, then the judge (i.e. the Zaadz admins in this metaphor) would have actual facts to take into consideration, given that there would be data on who's expressing concern, how many people are expressing concern, and what situations they're concerned about. And some of these people can then be encouraged, either directly or indirectly, to come forward and provide more detailed testimony and discuss the situation in greater detail in order to reach some (hopefully higher) mutual understanding.

The concern idea doesn't sit well with me for a couple of reasons:

1) It would make it too easy for people just to send them out, perhaps a group or clique, and cause trouble for the person via moderators rather than try to work with the person out of a sense of care. This careful interaction and engagement is the most important thing. People have to first try working it out themselves, but many people are too cynical and lazy and would find it too easy to just send out a "concern."

2) It would discourage people from speaking their minds, favoring the pluralistic value sphere and at the same time crowding out minority opinions--and it really would do this, Grey. I think you should consider the effect this would have on open inquiry. These "concerns" are really unnecessary, as people have people have pointed out--the system is already self-regulating. It does seem to me you are on a bit of a witch hunt. Comments like the one you made about people continually pushing the bounds of good behavior being more of a threat to the community than even the egregious violators are not grounded in reality--it's just not happening. Can you see how "concerns" would serve to enforce both the pluralistic value sphere, political correctness, and a feminine value sphere?

3) What would be patently unfair about the concerns is if they were to become divorced from the situation in which they had occured. If people were to just accumulate concerns, say, by number, with nothing to connect them to the situation then, from an integral perspectve they would be quite meaningless (the person's unpopularity is all they would tell you) and from a modern perspective inadmissable in a fair hearing. For the many reasons I have stated I don't think the concerns would be a good idea, but if we were to put them in, then there must be a name, date, and thread attached to each one, so if the "accused" would like to he or she could go back and dispute each one, attempt to prove they had been scapegoated by a clique, driven off by a different value sphere, point out double standards and hypocrisies, been projected upon, that someone or a group was holding a grudge, etc. Anything less than this would be blatantly unfair.

If this were not possible, you would be making a mistake in instituting it.

And I don't bold often, let alone underline, so don't take it lightly! :)

David

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://davidcrean.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:33:42 GMT

Hello, This is my first reply or posting on Zaadz (soon to be Gaia) though I have been browsing and getting a 'feel' for things. The first thing that strikes me in this space (not just this thread) is the level of discussion; I am inspired by a great deal of what people are communicating. I deeply appreciate the possibilities that are presented here. I've been wondering where to start and this seems a pretty good place to dive in.

Zet - I resonate with a lot of what you say. I appreciate your clarity and the image of a garden with regard to this issue of 'seeds' has given us lots of energy. Thank you.

When we talk in terms of nature we never even think to compare a little city garden with a national park as being better or worse. How can a tree be better than a tomato plant growing in your back yard? Nor do we think in terms of hoarding seeds. There would be no gain to do so unless you were creating a seed bank to preserve varietals. You might, however, consider when would be the most auspicious time to plant. Getting our thinking to move away from seeds as representing money in any form may be revolutionary for some.

We are heavily conditioned (whatever our cultural background, it seems to me) into separating the world into categories. Certainly this is one way that we make sense of this world we inhabit. At the same time this thinking limits us because when you boil it right down we divide everything into a good or bad dichotomy (read like or dislike).

Zet: But sangha is a different kind of community altogether. I would love to be a part of one, but this is not yet the time. For sangha you need everyone to be very conscious and awakened, it’s a community of monks, not visionaries who employ conscious capitalism and try to combine voices to change the world. Do you see my point here?

Surely, Zet, it IS the time, not to join a contemplative community perhaps, but to awaken to the possibility that exists here and now in THIS Zaadz community. Surely this is what we are attempting to do here (aren't we?). We don't have to wait for some ideal time or place. We can embrace the awakening that is happening in every moment in each of us; we can say, "yes" and have the courage to live in a way that encourages gardens of all kinds to grow. Is not a sign of healthy environments the diversity of flora and fauna that exist within that ecosphere?And would this not create the sangha you would love to be a part of in the larger world we inhabit? At one time there were monks who were visionaries that created sanghas. Perhaps you are a really a visionary monk creating sangha in the larger world, a world in which being conscious is not reserved for special places and times but infuses every relationship.

Zet: If we want to change the world, we must force the commercial powers of this world to change, because they are mostly responsible for the mess this world is facing!

I would say that any business is only as conscious as the individuals who comprise it and their ability to communicate what they know effectively with each other. It's people who make up these commercial powers. Seems to me that if I range myself against them then I am simply playing out my conditioning - separating things into good and bad. If I don't take responsibility for my own actions, I'm left with blaming someone else for the ills of the world when in truth it's up to me (and each of us). I can choose not to buy a product, or shop from a particular store. That sends out a message, magnified by the number of people who do so.

There's another message that can also be sent out which is to support those businesses that encourage practices that are sustainable and supportive of the communities they inhabit. I can buy those products or support them by telling others about them. Most corporations are well aware that success cannot only be measured by the last quarterly result, even though the way the market is set up heavily weights that particular way of measuring.

Zet: Zaadz needs to grow economically, and however weird this sounds, this should be in our interest.

Yes, yes! Your suggestion that Zaadz offers advertisers a way of 'giving back' is a great way to get seeds to work in the real world. So advertiser dollars goes to Zaadz/Gaia community project for example and Zaadsters give seeds to the idea they'd like to grow. This would be a direct way that we, the Zaadz community ,could manifest our vision into the larger community of the world.

A note about seed value: I read somewhere, but can't find now, an argument about the 'problem' of someone's voice (seed?!) having more 'weight' than someone else's. With or without seeds or rating systems there are always people who are more listened to than others. They simply have more weight because of who they are and how they live their lives. I listen to the Dalai Lama, for example. So do many others. I value him not so much because of what he says, but because he lives what he says. If the current Dalai Lama had been a different sort of man, perhaps the world would never have heard of him. The fact is we are continually 'giving seeds' to people who touch us or challenge us to think more deeply. And we're always looking to 'give seeds' because that is one way to feel connected. An actor walks on stage and the audience gives her their whole attention; they want her to succeed because everyone sitting in the theatre wants to be transported out of his/her ordinary life.

David: The negative seeds, by whatever name we give them, would just allow people to throw negativity at one another without discussing it in a way that will create better understanding... ... Another trouble with it is that people could send these things without having their names attached to them. They wouldn't have to answer to them.

I'm often surprised by what people let themselves say from the anonymity of cyberspace that I have little doubt they would never say in a public 'real time' forum. Lots of people here have pointed out pros and cons for clicking on a button to voice positive or negative feedback. One of the things I'm most impressed with here, as I said, is the level of discussion - it's wonderful how many people are taking the time to tune in, read through and consider a wealth of material, and then reply. Hmm, is this consciousness at play?

We have an opportunity here not to play small, looking for easy solutions by clicking on a button that says 'welcome or not welcome' or 'good or bad', even 'thanks or no thanks'. This is old language that can only separate... me from you, us from them. Thank you Sandra and others for offering something more in our search for a new dialogue: having options like 'made me think' or 'uplifting' or 'of interest to me' for example encourages people to tune in and not revert to the knee-jerk conditioned reaction.

By offering these kinds of options (which could be categorized and sorted later to help people find what they consider useful or of interest) perhaps we invite greater personal responsibility and engagement.

Thank you for reading.

With love,

David

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:20:53 GMT

I'm so enjoying this thread, appreciation to everyone contributing. Off to plant some seeds in your direction as soon as I finish this comment..

In random order:

David:I'd also like to point out that the many people who opposed this idea think that the matter is all over and done with.

I think we here can try to address this - I've just posted a note in the Diving Deeper pod on a thread that had quite a bit of activity and opposition to the idea ( myself included, at the beginning).

C4: voting system, trust system, reputation system, community self-regulating system, all rolled into one.

Thanks for this - and at the same time I feel there is a possibility here for the system to actually be something 'more'.

I'm hugely attached to Tantriksta's suggestion to expand the seed system in a way that encourages us to take some time and think about what exactly we do feel about a post (eg uplifting, challenging etc). Siona, I know you mentioned you liked this idea, :-)

Zet you say it could be too much of a hassle to do more complex “rating”, complex and time-consuming - but I'm wondering if in fact the time is worth putting in, especially considering your note, C4, about the system being in place for a projected increase in numbers or members and activity here - it would certainly help sort material. Would a more expansive system not support "aggregating and featuring contents in some future portals" ?

I would like to address the dialogue between David and Grey a little - I really see this as a 'work in progress' - already changes have been made because of members' feedback.
David, while I'm with you on most of your concerns, your approach seems to be based on it being a fixed system. I also personally feel that the more 'input' and energy I give the community and situations like this, the more likely change will happen. I have a 'positive' experience with this as I have already mentioned - regarding removal of the 'blinking ads'. If we had not spoken up, they would still be there.

My sense is that if we move away from vocabulary like 'reputation', 'trust' , 'voting' and more into the garden metaphor language that Zet originally began this thread with, something can shift. I'm not saying 'window dress' a negative/positive rating system so it looks like something else - but I do feel if I personally take a look at the system from another angle - I will use the system differently: i.e. not in a way that simplistically divides things out into 'good' and 'bad'.

If we all reframe our vision of what this system is about, or a goodly number of us, and act accordingly -then I sense it will create a ripple effect within the community.

I'm including moving away from the word 'rate' - as it seems to imply judgment (i.e. good vs bad) - I'm with David on this one.

And I do see this system as having a huge potential for us as a community, even as it stands now.

I totally agree with Zet: We are not really going to rate each other, but rather the information that is presented by us. My take has always been that the seeds be used for 'content' not for people.

However, my sense is that many people will use the system to 'rate' each other, which isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing - for the most part I feel this is an exceptional community - who is going to 'rate' positively someone who contravenes the zaadz/gaia terms and conditions? Maybe occasionally, but I doubt enough to make a difference. I feel we can move away from the concerns about 'popularity' if we broaden the use of the seeds to include a way to comment (tag) on content that sorts it into categories rather than a hierarchical scale of worth.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://metamythicmama.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:38:25 GMT

To those working through these deep and insightful ideas here, and for Zet for the garden metaphor, I tried to cast some big love in your directions...

but alas, I scattered my seeds on the winds of friendship and admiration yesterday.

Might I need to be more careful?

Or possibly my words will suffice.

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://drane.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:10:13 GMT

David: The idea that the “reputations” people accumulate could eventually be held against them is quite monstrous. This is like, at the end of the trial, a lawyer turning to the jury and saying, “Ladies and gentleman, in addition to the evidence I've presented, 72 of this man's fellow citizens have said that they don't care for what he has to say. In addition, they say he irritates them. Please bear that in mind during your deliberations.”

No, I don't think that it is the same thing, David. Well, actually, as the seeds system is currently implemented with only good seeds and no concern side to the equation, maybe it actually sort of is the same thing. But if we add concern to the equation, then the judge (i.e. the Zaadz admins in this metaphor) would have actual facts to take into consideration, given that there would be data on who's expressing concern, how many people are expressing concern, and what situations they're concerned about. And some of these people can then be encouraged, either directly or indirectly, to come forward and provide more detailed testimony and discuss the situation in greater detail in order to reach some (hopefully higher) mutual understanding.

Cheers,
Grey

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://interstellerearthdweller.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 11:21:17 GMT

Dave
you are absolutely right we gotta give and help others if we have enough i mean actuakllly we all always have enough to help feed people and volunteer to make a small cjhange evenn it all begins with a thought and turns into something greater a thought is a seed if you nurture it it will grow lets all plant all our seeds whats the point of hoarding themm they wont grow that way and then you have nothing so get rid of them

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://monk.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:42:18 GMT

Thank you very much, C. I really appreciate that.

David

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://coolmel.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:05:59 GMT

David said: "Also the community is already self-regulating and self-moderating. This is one of the really odd things about this debate. I hear arguements that people out there are “constantly pushing the limits of good behavior.” I don't see this, generally, and when it has happened people have stepped in and said something about it. "

good point. just to let you know, with the number of membership we have right now, we almost have a negligible amount of spam messages and people that we deactivate on the site (for not adhering with our Terms of Use). thanks to the vigilance of our members.

so i agree, so far the community is already self-sustaining and self-moderating. however, a lot of this has something to do with the overall size of the community and its active members. compared to other social networks (like Facebook, Friendster, Bebo, or MySpace), our member count is just a drop in the bucket, not to mention the count of active members. one of the reasons the Seed System was implemented is to prepare for the rapid growth of our community in the months (and years) to come. the dynamics of the community will definitely change once we hit the tipping point of our growth. that's why we need to have something like the Seed System so that collective preference of members will be taken into consideration when aggregating and featuring contents in some future portals.

again, there is no such thing as a "negative" (or bad) seed. so can we erase this from our vocabulary now? :) please check out the updates to the Seed System for more info.

allow me to describe once more what the Seed System is:

the Seed System is a voting system, trust system, reputation system, community self-regulating system, all rolled into one.

now let's focus on the positive aspect of the Seed System.

1) as a voting and self-regulating system, it's a way to place your vote on good contents so they would bubble up on the site. the more vote (or seed) a content received, the more visible they become on the site. this way we can create a portal featuring all the good contents that the community voted for. also, this is a way for the community to self-regulate itself by making the more meaningful contents more visible than the not-so meaningful content. the collective seeds (or votes) of the community will be used to decide on this instead of a few people picking and choosing the featured contents.

2) as a trust and reputation system, it's a way of sending your gratitude to other members on Zaadz by rewarding them more reputation and visibility on the site. members reputation are signified by the glowing graphic on their main page. this symbolic reputation gives other members a hint how “trustworthy” a particular member is. this also denotes how active the member is on the site. this is not intended to be a contest. however, overtime, we can use the reputation data to feature members who are “voted” by the community so as to make them more visible on the site.

having said that, you don't have to use it. you are in no way obligated to use it. although we highly recommend that you give those seeds away, the best way to use the seeds is to just keep it in the background and use it only if and when you feel like it. just keep doing what you're doing. be who you say you are. do what you think you have to do. say what you have to say. be yourself.

the Seed System as it is right now is an early implementation. we'll continue to refine the system and build other features on top of it that would use the data from the seeds given out by members of this community.

thanks for all your feedback and understanding.

~C

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://monk.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:56:53 GMT

Earon, if there were trust, there wouldn't be a need for the negative seeds. Also the community is already self-regulating and self-moderating. This is one of the really odd things about this debate. I hear arguements that people out there are "constantly pushing the limits of good behavior." I don't see this, generally, and when it has happened people have stepped in and said something about it. People have learned and grown as a result. No one who used to push the limits on the pods I have been on is pushing them now--absolutely no one. The system is already working, and I challenge anyone to come up with evidence that it isn't. If more people joined, then there would be more moderators and more people to step in as well. The flagging system would also help.

I'd also like to point out that the many people who opposed this idea think that the matter is all over and done with. They don't know that a few people are working zealously to push it through. I only found out about it through a thread on the I-I pod.

David

Re: Seeds and Gardens

http://divineprimate.gaia.com — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:42:00 GMT

David, I do appreciate your positive intentions and your compassion for the powerless. However, I don't see how can we create different ways to live if we are always fearful, assuming that people will act from their basest impulses, and that the Zaadz Team will allow this to degernerate into "Lord of the Flies" or sit on their hands while zaadsters turn into stepford wives. What if your concerns turn out to have been unfounded, and Zaadz fails to experiment as it wishes? And we never create an amazing community that could have been?

From my experience, being unpopular is actually a badge of courage for many thinkers and would not deter or shape their expressions whatsoever. There are plenty of nooks and crannies in which people can gather, well-lit rooms of open discussion and dimly lit catecombs where people can gather to revel in their anonymity. There are many checks and balances in place, and many more can be developed as needed. I also know that many of us Zaadsters are so concerned about unpopular voices that they will take special care to nurture them with seeds. I do that. Don't you? The admins are counting on this - and perhaps we will all rise to the challenges of self-regulating our community. Isn't this worth a try? We've got some brilliant architechts and admins here. If things get messed up, the worst that can happen is that we'll all have to start over more or less. And that could turn out to be an immense blessing - not a horrifying disaster.

Zaadz is the organization that is willing to take the risk here. How many business "owners" are betting on us to be our best and highest selves? Not many. They're all out there making profits from our greed and our insecurities. Siona is betting that Zaadz can grow and evolve into a diverse community of depth, respect and immense creativity and vitality, the likes of which we have never before seen. Could it become a leading edge progressive community that makes "move-on" seem puny, or a community that hosts and shapes the Presidential Debates in 2012, or that launches major new media and volunteering projects?

For one, I'm excited about this adventure.

Peace,

Earon