Gaia: Think Tank - Site Suggestions - heroes and heroines

Re: heroes and heroines

http://haledavid1.gaia.com — Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:04:41 GMT

What a great discussion with everyone sharing so much. Warms the heart and invigorates the mind. As I read through I was thinking of bringing it back to the use of "role models" or mentors even. A list of people we want to emulate. Hero seems so unreachable maybe many would stop trying before they even started myself included. Given the idea that hero were change makers usually and I want to be the change.

And then Siona made the excellent point of sort of losing the mythical connotation... hmmm. So now I have to think some more.

Someone recently asked me how I really think zaadz is changing the world. I hadn't read this yet but this will be my example to answer the next person who asks. The opening of ideas, dialogue, discussion, all are creating the change. That makes you all heros - thanks.

PJ summed it up for me for now: I do not see this thread as The place & time & necessity for the Ultimate label to come forth, as sweet as that would be. What I see is that this discussion is the cultivator, turning over old soil, fertilizing it & planting new/again seeds.... the blooms will come in their own right time...

Thankful to be gardening with such a great bunch of folks.
Blessings, David

Re: heroes and heroines

http://my-head.gaia.com — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:40:47 GMT

Perhaps an Angel Gateway to the MIND could provide another perspective for discussion ?

Re: heroes and heroines

Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:01:04 GMT

Yes, Sandra, this thread has also reminded me of women in my own family who are exemplary 'Role Models'... No one can stand higher as a compassionate mender of family wounds, in my heart-mind, than my own little Grandma Alice.

And, Nishtha! you have hit the target again as you refer to the loss of the mythic types.... Many do inspire me! I cannot imagine putting them on the shelf.

I do not see this thread as The place & time & necessity for the Ultimate label to come forth, as sweet as that would be. What I see is that this discussion is the cultivator, turning over old soil, fertilizing it & planting new/again seeds.... the blooms will come in their own right time...

Peace & Inspiration,
PJ

Re: heroes and heroines

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:11:25 GMT

Seven! wonderful, Nishtha! I found only one so far.

I'm sitting deep with this, I don't want just to put women up there just 'because' they are women.

I guess it is indicative of my upbringing & the societies I've lived in that I can't think of too many. My mother is feminist in so many of her aspects, extraordinarily so, but still has unconscious chauvinism going on - which I only became aware of the more aware of my own conditioned ideas.

Yes, I'm not sure role-models works 'perfectly' either.

But this thread does, it has opened my heart and eyes and mind to so many beautiful beings who been important to me. Some are alive, and I'm going to try and thank them directly.

Love,

Sandra

Re: heroes and heroines, children, the old & the Iconoclasts

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:32:44 GMT

Such good dialogue, and what inspiring heart beneath many of the posts - I 'should' be packing, but I step in here for a moments break.

I'm not sure if I totally understood all of your post Yosyama, but I felt great depth.

we don’t listen to small children even if they tell us the ultimate truth that we are waiting to hear all our lives

Such a beautiful reminder, thank you.

Sandra

Re: heroes and heroines

http://imprintingspirit.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:30:11 GMT

I like the term "role models" - as Sandra suggested may be a good replacement for "heroes."

"Role models" could be a great gender-neutral term that wouldn't exclude transgendered, hermaphrodites or asexual beings.

"Role models" could also be a great label that allows us to think in "human" terms rather than "super-human" terms (as pierre discussed in his post). I like the notion that "role models" are people that I admire and look up to and aspire to emulate....people whose lives and actions are "models" for how I could live and act in the world.

On the downside (perhaps), "role models" would remove the connotation of "heroes" as mythical figures, larger-than-life characters with special abilities and gifts. We might not think in terms of "Krishna" or "Wonder Woman" in that case....and something might be lost if that happened.

No easy answers I guess!

(The plus side of this very conversation was that I went back to my profile and updated my heroes list to include seven (7!) more women....)

Re: heroes and heroines

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:16:44 GMT

Perhaps instead of adding more to the page we should personally focus on broadening our minds.

I totally agree with the last part of your statement, dear Butterfly. And I'm not sure I want more added to the page either.

But it is my experience that narrow minds are rarely broadened all by themselves, being narrow they can't do that, they need the help of broader minds, wise words, and perhaps most of all as much personal experience in the world and of the world, as possible. Often such mind-broadening experiences come without our asking for them, and often they are not comfortable.

For example: My ex-husband is half-Japanese, and wore his hair cropped very short. This plus a leather jacket made him a colourful character. He spends his life helping people so they are not in situations where they are bullied or harmed because of their sex or colour or size. He teaches Jeet Kune Do and meditation. A beautiful being.

Now 'theoretically' I knew about racism. But I'd never experienced it as close to first hand as I did with him. We were turned out of restaurants ("Sorry, all full," said the manager in a totally empty dining room); we were constantly stopped by the police and he was asked 'what he was doing' and for his ID - not me, I'm far too white and blonde. And so on. He, of course, experienced far worse by himself.

I needed educating - and I could not have got that all by myself. I have life and other people to thank for my slowly broadening mind :-)

Love,
Sandra

Re: heroes and heroines

Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:17:45 GMT

4 vanities of modern man are putting thick barriers for

Brave Women who are love and compassion

Children who are intelligence of heaven

The Old who are our wisdom

With the Iconoclasts who are the Teachers

“Humanity is on path of the arrogant fool” yet this is not the all of the story b/c there is a struggle on our hands to survive this error and try a life of Compassion, Intelligence, Wisdom and Acceptance – a life with no barriers.

putting it in this frame, into four vanities is for the pain is recalling while n fact there are so many more barriers and prohibitions that arrogance derives us from the goodness that this life is, that in us for the sake of sense of power.

we don’t listen to small children even if they tell us the ultimate truth that we are waiting to hear all our lives, we don’t pay attention because we, mothers and fathers know better, and they must behave or sleep or eat - its such a shame how small children learn to shut up or lie or shout for that reason. and the old, look at the picture of the narcissists who cover these pages, how wise can you really be ? After all this place is more a match up for many. And the women, Christianity itself in its glorious days executed women who were the heart and soul of this land, just like today; how many women do we see around "important events", and what an ambitious monochromic masculinity . in these intolerable pains, the symbolic is the killing of the iconoclast who regardless of shape, sex , age, skin color etc, is for humanity to teach the truth.

sry

Re: heroes and heroines

http://ian-maleny.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:08:10 GMT

I have always thought it a GOOD thing, from the point of view of giving credit where credit is due, to differentiate between the sexes where nouns are concerned; and I have felt it to be obscure negativity that has made people, in recent years, make such a thing of this. I say this as one who has had, and has, equal respect for a person of either sex. It seems to me that, if we really want to take this matter to its logical conclusion we have got to stop referring to people as mothers or fathers and so on as well as calling everyone by the same asexual name. It seems to me that all this is driven more by emotion that rationality!
I say, "Call them what you like but love them equally and dearly."

Re: heroes and heroines

http://ian-maleny.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:54:45 GMT

Into the realm of words and labels through the fact that there are variations in perception and we have a nice pickle!
The solution will come only when we reach the stage of communicating telepathically [as we now do when we are not on Earth].
()

Re: heroes and heroines

http://sadrcity.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:49:26 GMT

Thanks All, for an engaging read! Especially Sandra, for beginning and weaving through with sweet sensitivity, Mary, for invoking the "shoulders of our foremothers" whose committed struggle gives us such empowering new opportunity and finally, Siona, for highlighting this conversation which I'd not otherwise have had the time or familiarity with zaadz tools to discover.

Just tonight I was filling in my profile questions. The only "hero" I was sure of is Jesus, and reflecting after Sandra's question that I hadn't considered any women, immediately knew that Mother Theresa belongs there too. I suspect some shadow in my use of "hero" kept me from considering women, just as a 'superhuman' conotation swept away all my other candidates.

The "power of words" gives me great pause in the way I use them publicly and too little in how they function for me alone in my thought. Yet in the single mind is where meaning likely hangs together with its subjective emotional depth and dynamic responsiveness to the spectrum of activity in focus. This thread evoked memories of feminest mentors leading the fight in our denomination for inclusive language in worship and bible study. It wasn't my fight, but they were certainly my teachers. Their public balance of intelligence and agony became a benchmark for personal advocacy for me obscured by patriarchal, european, heterosexual and economic myopia.

I learned to listen purposed toward helpfulness and found deepening exposure to my own uncertainty through years of intensive menswork; well contained soul-searching for the unique mission life's given me enfolded deep in the shadows I've begun to learn to embrace. A strong affirmation of gender uniqueness has been a powerful side-effect.

So, to the question of adding "heroines" to "heroes" I would ask if this wouldn't help us open ourselves to deeper inquiry and appreciation of gender characteristics and how our bodies bring definition to the experience of collective being. As much as I revere "unity" or "oneness", in experience these seem to be enriched by concrete acknowledgement of personal circumstance, however "divisive". I suspect the language we choose to use together to contain and guide the balancing act of inner/outer transformation will finally succeed or fail by what it serves to reveal to each about herself. In this regard, our transgender siblings, as sensitive to their unique circumstance as we may seek to be, will hopefully not begrudge us an inclusive option that reinforces the social ambiguity of their experience.
just wondering, pierre

Re: heroes and heroines

http://imprintingspirit.gaia.com — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:25:20 GMT

I'm grateful to Siona for pointing me/us to this discussion via her blog....I may not have stumbled upon it otherwise. I have really appreciated reading the various posts, some in response to Sandra's initial question, and others as an ongoing dialogue inspired by the responses. Again, thank you to all of you who have shared your hearts and minds here. Now, for my two cents.... I agree with all the comments about words having power, and I've enjoyed the dialogue of how we, as individuals and as communities and societies, ascribe power - and definitions - to the words we use. For me, the words being discussed on this topic, specifically, belong to a particular subset of words used in our language, words that are considered "labels." I think "labels" are a particularly "sticky" (pun intended!) category of words we use in communication. Labels help us make sense of our world but they can also limit how we see the world...again another thank you to Siona for bringing up a category of human beings that are not served by the two-label system of gender classification.... I believe that this beautiful discussion thread is making very clear the difficulties involved in trying to "un-stick" ourselves from labels that have existed for a long time and that have a history of specific associations and connotations...and I'm loving the commitment and care that this community of Zaadzsters is taking to engage in discussion about how to navigate ourselves through this sticky situtation!

Re: heroes and heroines

http://go.gaia.com — Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:57:35 GMT

Hi.

Your thoughts are very appreciated. And I totally agree, there is a variety of thinking represented here.

And you're invited to find no "women vs. men" (quoting Peggy), nor any "gender vs. gender" statement or reference in any of my earlier comments. So as not to be misquoted.

My thinking isn't connected to anything of the sort.

The amusement I've had when stating "us against them" is from the 'polarized lines of thought', irrespective of what sexual definition a person may or may not apply to themselves.

If interested in my line of thinking, I'll quote an earlier statement of mine: "It has never occured to me “hero” was this way or that way."

light,
tru

Re: heroes and heroines

Mon, 22 Jan 2007 05:09:31 GMT

Hi Tru!

I do not think that it is this:

What's amusing to me is this “us against them” on a site that is suppose to be about changing the world through oneness. And not indulging the worldly ways keeping the world so heavily polarized.

Even though I listed male/female as if a we/them situation.... & gay/heterosexual..etc... I see it more as all inclusive & yet, hey folks, we are different... & I therefore, ponder, why would we want one or the other's sexual designation to name both. And as Siona pointed out, what about other sexual designations.....? They are not even considered...

hehe:) Clearly I am female even though I know well the male aspects of my being.... But it is not in my mind that it is women vs men, or any other vs... rather it comes back to how we have loaded the words man & woman. And I think that this is the perfect site to be discussing this topic just so we can work together to become that oneness we all seek...... I do not think it is possible to just push the history under the rug (history that is still being played out all around us) & imagine the residue is not still fermenting somewhere.... or even imagine that it has all been addressed & resolved & that we are all already one, even though philosophically we are all already one... hey, we are not fully there yet.... I do not think we can ignore that part of the equation...

peace,
PJ

Re: heroes and heroines

http://drewlearningtofly.gaia.com — Mon, 22 Jan 2007 04:21:06 GMT

I have to say that I think language is of the utmost of importance.

“No language is neutral, as any oppressed person will testify; it always reflects the point of view and agenda of the dominant social paradigm. In a racist, sexist, homophobic society, such as currently exists in the United States, language reinforces the privileges of those with privilege; in other words, just as the victors write history, so do the dominants choose the linguistic spin of everyday terminology."

Dr. E. C. Adams (Unpublished Dissertation)

Drew

Re: heroes and heroines

http://ian-maleny.gaia.com — Mon, 22 Jan 2007 00:16:02 GMT

Much has been said about the power of words. It is true that words have power; many have used the power of words to sway minds, but not all are swayed - why?
Because the power of many, many, 'ordinary' minds - millions now - is greater than the power of words.
Children are taught words but these are meaningless until they are taught meanings directly, by example or by innuendo.
()

Re: heroes and heroines

Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:38:05 GMT

It must be a disorder, but I've never been able to learn anything with my mouth open, so I've been absorbing this wonderful discussion in silence. I have to admit that it sent me scrambling back to my profile to see who was on my Heroes list (the person who comes up with a cure for short-term memory loss will definitely be added). I see I'd listed two women: Molly Ivins and Margaret Mead, so I don't suppose the term Heroes automatically shuttled me into make mode. I can't help but think of the patriarchal porridge that was heaped on my plate as I was coming of age in the 50s and how I began the painful process of transformation to feminism in the 60s and 70s (change isn't painful; resistance to change is). Lord knows, I'm still a work in progress and the insights you've given me in this thread have been invaluable. Thanks, all of you. Words do have power. They can start wars, sway a hesitant heart, assign us a place in society and even (I discovered early in life) make a batter swing at a sucker pitch. I'm bringing my son up to respect words, and also respect people. I'm all for devising terms that enable men and women alike to keep their dignity. But even as we coin new words, I wish we did a better job of truly listening to the ones we employ now.

Re: heroes and heroines

http://armygirl.gaia.com — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:53:24 GMT

Well coming into this conversation just a tad bit late but personally I don't see why we should have to have a heroes and heroines tab I mean think about what the term hero means. Someone who "saves the day' who does something that you can't do, someone who you look up to even if you don't know or can't explain why. My mom is my hero, my dad is my hero, my brother, my grandmother, my cousin, my sister's "all five of them" wonderwoman, catwoman, they are all my hero's. They are all HERO's you don't have to say heroine, you don't have to be specific. You know how you translate the term hero and that should be enough for you. It is for me. Oh and we shouldn't worry 157% of the time about being "politically correct" no matter how hard we try, someone somewhere may choose to take offense to it. So breath, it is our personal translation of the term that we must deal with. Perhaps instead of adding more to the page we should personally focus on broadening our minds. After all that would be practicing what we preach, would it not?

Re: heroes and heroines

http://sandrajensen.gaia.com — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:50:14 GMT

I have a big smile on my face,

amazing really, what can happen on a mere 'thread'.

I ditto Siona - I love to hear personal stories, how someone in particular has been affected by 'blind spots'; how we actually personally feel, or have felt. I know how I so easily go into 'theory' or how it 'should' be or how it 'is', rather than share more about how it is for me, personally, and why I'm saying what I'm saying.

It's time for my bed, but I'm not finished here yet. :-)

Re: heroes and heroines

http://kparcell.gaia.com — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:39:45 GMT

"I'm here - at zaadz, and in the world to see if I can bring the light of awareness to these patterns, and perhaps they can melt into a more open, loving way of being which both includes and transcends gender." You're my shero and my hero. So, that's the end of my objectivity :)