Gaia Community

Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Jeremiah said Nov 15, 2007, 8:05 AM:

The Seed Bank Idea brings to mind what happened in Germany during Hitler where neighbors turned in neighbors anonymously and then people just disappeaerd. The same thing occurred in East Germany as well as in Communist CHina and the Soviet Union. It is even occuring now in the USA under the beware of terrorist.

Why repeat that here? As someone else said , there is no system to trust. It is either there or it isn't. And this so called system will undermine the trust that is there now.

To summarily lock our previously discussions of this on the pod we were requested to comment on without transferring the threads over here does not engender our trust of admin.

Jeremiah

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Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Patrick [no longer around] said Nov 15, 2007, 8:32 AM:

David: Although I've not always agreed with you (on th I-I) pod, I'm fully supporting you're point of view here, and I think your points are clear and well articulated.

Jeremiah: I fully agree.

I have nothing to add, realy. I just want to suport both your point of views.

One little point of view though that I see is the following:

- Children from 7 to 11 experience what Freud called “the latency” stage. It is a very “conventional” time of their development when they learn to integrate the rules and be the rules.

In psychotherapy,a lot of the work is to help people go past that “conventional” stage, which is caracterized by a high sensitiveness to other people's judgement. This conventionality is certainly something we all need to integrate, but the process of individuation should not stop here. In order to become close to one's own self, we all need to go beyond “What people think of us”. This is a hard work, but it leads to a more fuller personality that can be more complexely creative and spontaneous.

This seed thing has elicited many answers like: “It reminds me of my school days”. And this is certainly not to be discarded lightly. It is a technique that will probably enhance “Conventionality” and there is no wonder that it reminds some of us of a moment of development were our surroundings and our development was centered around the integration of conventionality.

The other analogy that has been spoken too is the “tyranical state” one. Conventionality enforced by the people against the people, and prevention of individuation and creative behaviour are central features of that kind of government. We can also quite clearly see how the seed principle will foster that kind of feeling.

Basicaly, I think this seed thing is going to ennhance banality, mediocrity, what is mostly loved, conventionality _ because, yes, thiese kind of attitudes also exists in the spiritual comunities.

Hope you guys will put some water in your wine!

Patrick

Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Siona said Nov 15, 2007, 8:51 AM:

I'm curious–genuinely–about what you believe might be a better means of moderation. We're truly open to this. So far this new system has been met with quite a bit of criticism, but I haven't heard many (any?) constructive or creative ideas for something better. This felt like the most fair and empowering means we could come up with for community moderation, and we did but a great deal of thought into it. But if you have suggestions for something more healthy, something that won't “enhance conventionality,” please please please let us know.

I know. Zaadz feels safe. This place feels like a haven, an oasis, someplace that can be trusted and secure. This isn't an accident, though! The sanctity of this community is the result of discernment and standards. Our team, especially the community support crew, works to make sure that those who don't abide by these standards–those who come on and start sending messages to, say, purchase Viagra, or those who come and send harrassing notes to women on the site–get removed. And now we're attempting to give you a voice in those decisions, and to give you, the community, some of that responsibility… and you're saying you don't want it, and that you prefer to be taken care of and protected by the team instead.

It's curious to me. :)

Better form of moderation

TextMage said Nov 15, 2007, 4:23 PM:

Hi, Siona,

You say, “I'm curious–genuinely–about what you believe might be a better means of moderation.” I'm not certain that I need a better form of moderation. I haven't been at Zaadz long, but from what I have seen of this site, the current moderators, most of whom I do not know, so please don't take offense, seem to be doing a great JOB.

IF it ain't broke, don't fix it. The entire time I was at Omidyar.net, good, well-meaning people, myself included, although I do not know how good and well-meaning I am, fought like children over the point system there. From the earliest days of Omidyar, until literally the last few posts, the point-system hung over Omidizens' heads like a sword.

The problem is not point-systems. The problem is people. Everyone will suddenly get self-righteous about something, sooner, or later. WE, human beings, are deeply-flawed critters who learn from sharing, cooperating, and seeing Others model behaviors that WE want to try out for ourselves. All these methods for learning are interaction-oriented.

Point-systems of any sort, remove US one more step from interaction. Like pokes and woos at other sites, points of any sort become a shorthand, so to speak, for crowds in the Colosseum to show THEIR own baser instincts

I don't think that I am saying that I want “to be taken care of and protected by the team instead.” I am saying that when I have a problem, I would prefer to work it out through communication and discussion. I would prefer that when Others have a problem with ME that THEY at least try to work it out with ME first. I think seeds like point-systems everywhere else, will work to diminish people working things out.

I am happy to know that the team is there, but at Omidyar, WE were very self-policing through posts directed at changing behavior. When there was a definite problem with spammers, or trolls, they were removed without appeal, or prejudice.

Just like here.

Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

semilla besada [no longer around] said Nov 16, 2007, 7:50 AM:

Siona,

I'm glad to find your post here. I wish I had a great idea to give you to assist with monitoring the site, but I don't know nearly enough about the complexity of running such a site to even have an idea of how it should be handled.

I do, however, really, really, really dislike the whole “seeds” idea. It smacks of cliques and Big Brother and so many other distasteful exclusionary and censorship-like things that my head spins just thinking about it.

Creating a safe space for expression must absolutely allow for internal critique. Dissenting opinions have a reason to be. But persons acting covertly for purposes other than the stated purposes of the site should simply not be here.

Short of hiring internal monitors, which I gather you already have, I can't think of a better way to keep zaadz clean and clear. Web detectives, maybe?

I do so hope this seed thing doesn't happen. I'm pretty sure I'll have no part in it and it will certainly affect my promotion of zaadz to my clients and friends as well.

Thanks for your ear.

Victoria

x

DiamondLil said Nov 17, 2007, 9:28 AM:

Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Chris said Nov 15, 2007, 9:00 AM:

Well, we reached Godwin's Law pretty quickly in this thread. And as completely unhelpful as this comment was, I'm not flagging it down or for review. If it were explicit or confrontational, I would.

And that's how it will go.

Is anyone seriously worried that they will be negatively affected by this system? I mean really, are you? If so, then who else is out to get you? The answer, friend, is no one. Your kookiness is not a threat or concern to anyone, and will not be dampened here, surely.

And for my money, Zaadz is about as politically uncorrect and radical as it gets, while still being a caring and reasonable place. Be the first of that, but also be the second. Does anyone have a serious problem with that?

Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

~C4Chaos said Nov 15, 2007, 9:19 AM:

Jeremiah,

“To summarily lock our previously discussions of this on the pod we were requested to comment on without transferring the threads over here does not engender our trust of admin.”

thanks for pointing it out. but there was no malice in locking the thread. to be honest, i've added a link to that thread before i've even read your post :) check it out.

the discussion should've been on the Thinktank pod in the first place. i take full responsibility for goofing and pointing it on the HOW TO pod. my apologies.

the HOW TO pod is for questions about features. feedback and concerns should be posted on this (Thinktank) pod.

carry on with the discussion.

~C

Re: The New Seed Bank Idea Is a Big Mistake

Definitive said Nov 16, 2007, 6:18 PM:

JEREMIAH ….mind the glass house you live in…

Would Hitler engage in the conversation that has started here…

NO! Hitler would scream out then run and call for his henchmen to finish the job….much like you have dropping in a couple of comments…and then leaving the table quickly…

The Team here @ Zaadz have engaged in a discussion with you…and have already made changes to the system….I don't remember things working like that when I lived in “Communist China” and people did not like things….(have you ever lived in one of these countries…during abhorent times and conditions????????)

A fascist or communist would make a quick comment…much like you have done….puff up their chest similar to the way you have… and more over… they would then “line you up” and do with you as they please…

I really wish you could throw some bad seeds at me for this post… because I know what I am saying is most likely bothering you…and you would prefer that I don't continue to talk about your opinion like this….(and will continue too, especially now that there is no way for you to bury it with bad seeds) I will also “digg this post”, “stumble this post”, and “bookmark” this post every way I can so as many people as possible can see it…

I hope you apologize for you vulgar and insane comparison to some of the most evil things in the world…

I am happy to read and engage in debates, and I think most others are too, it's part of the reason…Zaadz is different and it's one of the reasons people flock here….but the calliousness you display here is truly an insult, and a betrayal to that cross you where around your neck in your profile picture…

~definitive