Gaia Community

heroes and heroines

Sandra said Jan 17, 2007, 8:44 AM:

This one just struck me. I was looking at my profile page, and not for the first time noticed that I only have men in my 'heroes' list.

My angry feminist stage was short and hard, long gone.

And I do believe words hold great power to influence us.

I'm wondering if the list was titled 'Heroines and Heroes' it might invite us to be a little more 'equal' in our ponderings about who might be on the list?

Show Replies

Re: heroes and heroines

~C4Chaos said Jan 17, 2007, 9:50 AM:

LOL. i think mine is worse. i only have fictional characters in my heroes list :)
to me heroes is a generic term though :)

~C

Re: heroes and heroines

Sandra said Jan 18, 2007, 4:40 AM:

i only have fictional characters in my heroes list

heheh! I didn't even think of doing that. What a great idea.

to me heroes is a generic term though :)

eegads I can't believe I'm going to say this but I am:
This is probably because you are, an, um, guy.

My 'guy' had a good idea, how about using word 'role models' (could be in addtion to heroes/heroines).

Re: heroes and heroines

Darshan said Jan 18, 2007, 10:30 AM:

I have to chime in with my two cents on this post. I totally agree with ~C's position on heroes being a generic term, and it isn't because I'm a guy. Why do we have to create further create divisions between us and them? Heroes and heroines? Does it unify? Nor is it any more likely open hearts and minds any further for people to realize that heroes come in both genders.

I think it far more beneficial that our minds and hearts become more tuned to the idea that heroes are simply people who do extraordinary things.

To me heroine is an antiquated, unnecessary word which provides an unnecessary distinction. And if we were to break them down purely to a feminine and masculine root shouldn't they be heroes and heras? That certainly would have more cultural validity by attaching the word to the powerful Goddess.

To me, to modify the language so that we single out our heroes and heroines (and certainly their differences) well, that's certainly one way of doing things, and I think the easier task. But on the other hand why not expand our minds and hearts to accomodate and be inclusive of both? It's what I'd rather do because we've got enough language and thought in this world that divides.

And finally, with all due respect, declaring that the reason ~C has the thinking that he does is because he is a guy, is a sexist statement. I know I am going to get flack for this, but just as I would call a man on a sexist statement, I have to call them on women when I see them. And this is not said to call you out and shame you, however I think you would get rather incensed if I were to declare the reason you “think the way you do” is because you are a woman… especially if that way of thinking was one which you felt carried a negative connotation.

Again, I hope you will take all that I have said in the spirit and respect intended. Ultimately for me, this all boils down to the sense that we respect each other and unify rather than divide.

Respectfully,

–D.

Re: heroes and heroines

Tru said Jan 18, 2007, 1:26 PM:

Hero is equal to police officer.

Although both policewomen and policemen work in the field.

The 9/11 heroes are all kinds of humans (including females and males).

Supergirl is a hero.
Wonderwoman is a hero.
Storm is a hero.
Phoenix is a hero.
Elektra is a hero.
She-Hulk is a hero.
Batgirl is a hero.
Catwoman is a hero, sometimes.
Xena is a hero.
She-ra is a hero.
Breast cancer survivors are heroes. Including those at war til death.
My mom is a hero.
Your mom is a hero.
Mother Earth is a hero.
Rosa Parks is a hero.
Eleanor Roosevelt is a hero.
Harriet Tubman is a hero.

It has never occured to me “hero” was this way or that way.

Re: heroes and heroines

Darshan said Jan 18, 2007, 1:30 PM:

Yeah, beautiful.

I couldn't agree more.

Re: heroes and heroines

Peggy J [no longer around] said Jan 18, 2007, 3:41 PM:

Yeah, language can be the pits & is why we often get into so many misunderstandings…… fusses & fits:):)!

When I came to embrace the qualities of male & female in my being, in the early 70s, then came to embrace the spiritual aspect of my being which has no gender….. in the late 70s, I started thinking that we are beings that are gender-full and gender-free. However I came up with that notion I do not know, but for me it works.

Then there is that old part of me, I guess the wounded one speaking, that wept every-time I saw the word 'man' on every page of every book of religion or science or psychology or art…… that I opened. That part of me still occasionally weeps b/c woman, female, heroine has been so neglected in the English language…. or relegated to being negative.

I know I know,, we are slowly changing….. but my heart asks you fellas to be as patient with us when you see us grasping for words to express differently than what we have been groomed to think we are… Just as for lo all those 50s 60s 70s & currently… women have cried: when oh when will the men wake up… on a lot of issues…. and you guys have been working & we gals are working….

So it is an ongoing process…. with all due respect guys, I do not want to be called a hero. I have worked soooooo hard to find my positive-feminine side, If anything I'd much more easily accept a name that reflected both my male & female qualities, but that isn't going to happen I guess b/c that is more tinkering with the language…

Words…. sometimes I'd rather just not talk at all…..

There is a saying…. Goes: To really understand another person's experience you would have to swallow the world whole - all of it, throughout all of recorded time & before… black/white, gay/heterosexual, male/female, teen/elder and so on ……

I am a long way from experiencing a lot of opposites…. so I am trying, here, to walk gently…

Hugs:)!
PJ

Re: heroes and heroines

Darshan said Jan 18, 2007, 4:38 PM:

I totally honor your words, Peggy. Everything you say goes beyond having merit, and speaks to truth (divisible or undivisible as you might imagine it to be.

Even as a man, I have had experiences not so different from your own. I was raised by a single mother and had a strong grandmother in my life. Women not only created my world, but shaped it. I have also come to know, honor and respect the feminine aspect of my own personalitly. I have called myself a feminist and spoken up for a woman's rights to be equal to men. That which advances a women only makes my existence as a man that much greater. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that I was writing about one of my favorite songs which speaks to the plight of women.

On the other hand I have to say I despise labels in general. Even the best of them are weak in their ability to speak to truth. But on the other hand I have a bigger problem with language, behavior, attitudes or anything which divides us. I'll live in California, but I won't live in a “blue state”. It's one of the reasons why as much as I will honor Women, Feminists, Goddesses and Heroines alike, I will never come to use the word “womyn”. Were we not all born of man and woman? Despite the significant wrongs and the ill-health of a world subject to era after era of Patriarchal rule, it doesn't make me want to honor men any less.

I recognize that women need there own time and space for healing, but in many ways I think women have a far shorter road to hoe when it comes to being “their best person”. I think that men as a group have to acknowledge and integrate more of the feminine into their being, and at the same time respecting what our lack of integration has done to women and humanity alike.

Humanity has so much to learn from the feminine gender, so much which has been kept at bay, rejected, ridiculed and dishonored. But eventually, I think we have to come to the place where we are ready honor and celebrate both aspects of our human identity. Peggy, I'd rather have understanding and empathy, than patience. But of course, patience is indeed a virtue.

In honor of all of us and with much love,

Darshan

Re: heroes and heroines

Sandra said Jan 19, 2007, 6:36 AM:

wow…. and I thought I was just making a simple suggestion.

not so simple clearly. It does feel like I've touched a button - so far the only people on this thread who have made an objection to my suggestion are men. I do know that many men have been the victims of collateral damage in the 'war against chauvinism' - and I truly did not intend to add to this.

I was speaking to something I saw in myself: that when I thought of 'heroes' I only thought of men. This is my programming - ( inspite of having a thoroughly non-wallflower mother who did things in her time & country that were unheard of for a woman to do).

Words are immensely powerful - look at what has happened here because of them. I believe it does behoove us to bring awareness to their power.

I think it far more beneficial that our minds and hearts become more tuned to the idea that heroes are simply people who do extraordinary things.

I'm so completely with you Darshan. I'm wondering how we can encourage this? Maybe by bringing some attention to the areas where we are automatic, and unaware and where we make 'assumptions' ?

Perhaps a little JS 'bubble' that pops up when I put my mouse over 'Heroes' with words which encourage me to think beyond my box - I'd love that.

I think you would get rather incensed if I were to declare the reason you “think the way you do” is because you are a woman… especially if that way of thinking was one which you felt carried a negative connotation.

Actually, I'm not so sure. There are a ton of things I do and think that are gender based. Some of them are probably due to genetics, and a ton of them have to do with the way I was brought up, my conditioning around being 'female.'

Certainly I have thought patterns that are judgmental and negative, certainly I make sexist assumptions - it was the reason I posted here, because I saw one of those…

I'm here - at zaadz, and in the world to see if I can bring the light of awareness to these patterns, and perhaps they can melt into a more open, loving way of being which both includes and transcends gender. (lovely post, Peggy).

Thanks all.

Re: heroes and heroines

Heather said Jan 21, 2007, 2:53 PM:

Well coming into this conversation just a tad bit late but personally I don't see why we should have to have a heroes and heroines tab I mean think about what the term hero means. Someone who “saves the day' who does something that you can't do, someone who you look up to even if you don't know or can't explain why. My mom is my hero, my dad is my hero, my brother, my grandmother, my cousin, my sister's “all five of them” wonderwoman, catwoman, they are all my hero's. They are all HERO's you don't have to say heroine, you don't have to be specific. You know how you translate the term hero and that should be enough for you. It is for me. Oh and we shouldn't worry 157% of the time about being “politically correct” no matter how hard we try, someone somewhere may choose to take offense to it. So breath, it is our personal translation of the term that we must deal with. Perhaps instead of adding more to the page we should personally focus on broadening our minds. After all that would be practicing what we preach, would it not?

Re: heroes and heroines

Sandra said Jan 23, 2007, 11:16 AM:

Perhaps instead of adding more to the page we should personally focus on broadening our minds.

I totally agree with the last part of your statement, dear Butterfly. And I'm not sure I want more added to the page either.

But it is my experience that narrow minds are rarely broadened all by themselves, being narrow they can't do that, they need the help of broader minds, wise words, and perhaps most of all as much personal experience in the world and of the world, as possible. Often such mind-broadening experiences come without our asking for them, and often they are not comfortable.

For example: My ex-husband is half-Japanese, and wore his hair cropped very short. This plus a leather jacket made him a colourful character. He spends his life helping people so they are not in situations where they are bullied or harmed because of their sex or colour or size. He teaches Jeet Kune Do and meditation. A beautiful being.

Now 'theoretically' I knew about racism. But I'd never experienced it as close to first hand as I did with him. We were turned out of restaurants (“Sorry, all full,” said the manager in a totally empty dining room); we were constantly stopped by the police and he was asked 'what he was doing' and for his ID - not me, I'm far too white and blonde. And so on. He, of course, experienced far worse by himself.

I needed educating - and I could not have got that all by myself. I have life and other people to thank for my slowly broadening mind :-)

Love,
Sandra

Re: heroes and heroines

mary said Jan 19, 2007, 8:19 AM:

i agree with everybody, especially peggy, who is a true seer. darshan i felt is championing women in a very forward-thinking way, but without first-hand knowledge of the blood women yet spill for patriarchy.

the root of the problem is not the words we use but the meaning they hold. so if “heroine” triggered female equalivalents to the males evoked by the term “hero,” then what would the issue be? do those terms evoke equivalencies to darshan? possibly. and possibly to many younger people. and wouldn't that be wonderful! but do the terms mean that to everyone? no. i personally am a battle-weary war-horse, still dazed over the defeat of the ERA. I see women increasingly viewed as respectable and competent, but it is on our shoulders and the shoulders of our foremothers they are afforded this wonderful freshening of the female spirit.

which i believe is essential in order to provide adequate balance in world affairs, from top to bottom.

but i do disagree that women have a shorter row to hoe. Women have many strengths, but overall our self-loathing remains our prominant feature. I hope this is quickly changing, but judging from the frenzied rise of cosmetic surgeries and anorexia, i am not sure we are gaining much ground.

I personally find that women have farther to go to honor themselves than men have to go in honoring themselves. it sometimes appears we are our own worst enemies. but, like peggy, i understand that it is a maturation process. and we more seasoned women have a lot of painful conditioning to over-ride. i love that the younger generation of men seems to really be stepping up to the plate!

great thread, sandra, everybody!

Re: heroes and heroines

tinkonthebrink said Jan 20, 2007, 6:39 PM:

Language does have a lot of power, but it can be tricky to be sure about exactly what we're invoking.
The word “authoress” used to be used to denote a female author. It isn't used anymore, because it sounds demeaning to distinguish among authors based on their gender. Wherever there is a perfectly serviceable word available to describe a role, inventing another term to describe a woman in that role is just sexist. Heroes, actors, waiters, teachers, doctors, nurses, authors, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers are human beings performing a function.
Separate but equal has never been a useful concept, and language that speaks for separation can't also be speaking for equality.
It seems to me that we all benefit from the idea of actions being separate from the gender of the person who happens to undertake them, and I'm coming at this from the female perspective, and I'm a grownup.

Re: heroes and heroines

Tru said Jan 20, 2007, 8:50 PM:

Excellent insight, Rapunzel. That has always been the impression I've had.

Certainly I have not objected to Sandra's suggestion. And I'm male.

My earlier post quite simply demonstrated living proof, a pattern and a clear history of how “hero” is applied to women. Perhaps it would have served as sort of a reminder, awakening the sense that it is generic.

If the feeling of having polarizations of ”hero and heroines” designated on Zaadz.com are that strong, then let it be changed. By all means, I can appreciate that. [1 male supporter]

What's amusing to me is this “us against them” on a site that is suppose to be about changing the world through oneness. And not indulging the worldly ways keeping the world so heavily polarized.

Besides, I'd like to think that Zaadz was mindful with the current wording. And that it was consciously purposeful, and very compassionate.

Re: heroes and heroines

Ian Gardner said Jan 20, 2007, 11:28 PM:

As far as I am concerned this worldwide phenomenon of “gender balance”, “political correctness” or whatever it is called is just an enormous bore! What matters is what is in the mind of the one selecting the word, title, label or whatever. However, officially changing “labels” only manages to awaken a few people to their attitude in this regard so I suppose there is some benefit in that.

()

Re: heroes and heroines

Peggy J [no longer around] said Jan 21, 2007, 9:09 PM:

Hi Tru!

I do not think that it is this:

What's amusing to me is this “us against them” on a site that is suppose to be about changing the world through oneness. And not indulging the worldly ways keeping the world so heavily polarized.

Even though I listed male/female as if a we/them situation…. & gay/heterosexual..etc… I see it more as all inclusive & yet, hey folks, we are different… & I therefore, ponder, why would we want one or the other's sexual designation to name both. And as Siona pointed out, what about other sexual designations…..? They are not even considered…

hehe:) Clearly I am female even though I know well the male aspects of my being…. But it is not in my mind that it is women vs men, or any other vs… rather it comes back to how we have loaded the words man & woman. And I think that this is the perfect site to be discussing this topic just so we can work together to become that oneness we all seek…… I do not think it is possible to just push the history under the rug (history that is still being played out all around us) & imagine the residue is not still fermenting somewhere…. or even imagine that it has all been addressed & resolved & that we are all already one, even though philosophically we are all already one… hey, we are not fully there yet…. I do not think we can ignore that part of the equation…

peace,
PJ

Re: heroes and heroines

Tru said Jan 22, 2007, 1:57 AM:

Hi.

Your thoughts are very appreciated. And I totally agree, there is a variety of thinking represented here.

And you're invited to find no ”women vs. men“ (quoting Peggy), nor any ”gender vs. gender” statement or reference in any of my earlier comments. So as not to be misquoted.

My thinking isn't connected to anything of the sort.

The amusement I've had when stating ”us against them“ is from the 'polarized lines of thought', irrespective of what sexual definition a person may or may not apply to themselves.

If interested in my line of thinking, I'll quote an earlier statement of mine: “It has never occured to me “hero” was this way or that way.”

light,
tru

Re: heroes, esp. male

crow said Jan 21, 2007, 7:17 AM:

Words do have power—enough to inspire war, peace, love, hate, growth, murder, enlightenment, shame, affirmation, good cooking….. Words are the bomb! And although you might sincerely mean she/he/they when you say “he”, to put it very simply and clearly, we all hear “he”. Words are a huge part of how we humans receive our world.

As the mother of two daughters, I have become more fully aware of how male-centred our words and story-telling continue to be—God, Santa, The Easter Bunny, Buddha, Gandhi, St. Valentine, St. Patrick, Superman, Batman, Daniel Boone, Barney, Mr. Dressup, Arthur, Harry Potter, Bilbo Baggins, Andy Griffith……. I could go on and on and on. If you say “but there are girl stories, too,” you're missing something in what I'm saying. Something so huge and so obvious that it's nearly invisible. They say that people who live near the airport eventually stop even hearing the planes, too, but that doesn't mean the planes aren't there.

There is no major holiday celebrating a female. And looking for heroines in literature is entirely doable, but not without effort. And I did put out that effort. Not to provide the girls with nothing but female role models. This isn't about “us and them” contrary to what Ian perceived. It's about making more room for “us” in the fullest human sense, and less about us/them: Our language was constructed to enforce the division, and often it was designed in a way that virtually obscured the feminine from view and from acknowledgment. “He” doesn't mean “she”. And “man” doesn't mean “woman”. Sorry, but you gotta try it on in reverse to see how preposterous it is. “One small step for woman, one giant leap for womankind.” Work for you? Doesn't work for me.

Nothing wrong with celebrating males. I do it all the time : ) And I think that the world has only barely begun to allow men and women to be what they truly are. There are so many boxes into which both genders aren't incessantly being crammed. It just really weirded me out to find such scant offerings for the female side of the equation.

Words I thought little about, before, suddenly fell apart like sawdust on my tongue…. “mailman” “fireman” “policeman” …. and yeah, boy does it ever feel clunky and stupid to hold up an extra millisecond and sputter out “letter carrier”, “fire fighter” and “police officer”. But fireman doesn't mean firewoman, I mean get real. Tell a policeman that from now on he's going to be called “policewoman” but don't you worry, Jim, we all mean you, too.

Words matter to me because I'm raising these amazing, brilliant, funny, gorgeous human beings who wouldn't for a second expect the world to think that they are 'less' for being female! It's utterly incomprehensible, to them and to me, but it's still a pretty prevalent idea in our world. Both of these girls are going to be scientists (OK, well, one of them will be either a scientist or the owner of a chicken-themed restaurant that grows its own organic foods and sells the crafts and arts of locals!) … We have raised them to follow any dream that makes their heart beat faster, and inspires them. “Scientist” has a nice ring to it, and it really is completely gender neutral.

But you are up against Websters New Word College Dictionary–not just a few people's opinions–when you say the word “hero” is also gender neutral. It's about as gender neutral as “policewoman”, until there is enough consensus to change the dictionary (and the dictionary is open to change, when meanings really do change, or when new words are formed—I'm half startled and half tickled that I can look the word “fucker” up in Websters!) Perhaps the word “hero” is morphing in that direction. But the broader subject of the power of words still stands, no matter where you stand on this word.

So, for you now, Websters' Hero:

1. Myth, Legend, a man of great strength and courage, favoured by the gods and in part descended from them, often regarded as a half-god and worshiped after his death.
2. any person, esp. a man, admired for courage, nobility, or exploits, esp. in war
3. any person, esp. a man, admired for qualities or achievements and regarded as an ideal or model
4. the central male character in a novel, play, poem, etc., with whom the reader or audience is supposed to sympathize
5 the central figure in any important event or period, honoured for outstanding qualities
6. HERO SANDWICH (hah hah, I love #6, it just kind of jumps out so unexpectedly!)

bows,
crow

Re: heroes, esp. male

Sandra said Jan 21, 2007, 10:13 AM:

Thanks so much dear Crow for adding your light and cheerful and yet incisive opinion.

Bit of humour to all this is great.

I actually have no agenda or great need for hero to be changed - (as it is on zaadz) - in the long run it is a word that will probably become gender free. I don't believe this is the case now, not for the majority of people. Perhaps by leaving it as is here we can support that shift.

Is it's a good shift? I don't know this either. Most of the female versions of words have a slightly negative connotation - authoress somehow feels less 'important' than 'author', same with actress and actor.

Even 'heroine' has a kind of hysterical feel to it. Is it better to 'merge' with the masculine version, and so kind of ignore and do away with, without further ado, the negative flavours of the feminine version, or actually shift our belittling ideas that arise with such words?

I don't know.

And, mostly, I'm very interested in what has unfolded here!

Love to all,
Sandra

Re: heroes, esp. male

Siona said Jan 21, 2007, 10:59 AM:

Oh, Sandra. What a fabulous question! I'm actually in agreement with ~C4 in that I do think the more we can do to advocate 'hero' as a gender-neutral term, the better; I know that 'heroine' has been banned by major educational publishing houses for being sexist.

And Peggy? I bow to you, deeply, for sharing that. Thank you.

I also loved rapunzel's point, and crow's. To all those men who think that “everyone knows that fireman is really gender-neutral,” please … ask yourself how you'd feel being called a “firewoman.” To my mind, the insidious exclusion involved is almost worse if you're not conscious of the difference, which is why I'm so glad this topic came up.

I feel quite strongly, though, that maintaining the distinction between male and female heroes by using language like 'heroine' just perpetuates inequity, though, because these two words leave out entirely those of us who do not identify with one gender or another. What do transgenders do in this case? Where does *that* leave us? It's partially because of this that I believe reclaiming 'hero' to be used as a term like 'human being' is the fairest and most reasonable approach. The gender distinction was silly to begin with, and while it takes time for meanings to shift, it is possible. Again, I think this is a crucial topic, and I'm so grateful it came up, but do be mindful, too, that even speaking of gendered language as an issue between men and women excludes and silences all those who don't identify with one or the other sex.

But do let's keep talking about this! Again, I'd love to hear more stories such as Peggy J's … those incredible important reminders of our past and what gets whitewashed over when it comes to quick fixes. Language can be used to discover and conceal as easily as it can be used to clarify … so let's try, all of us, to stay committed to clarity and awareness. I for one would be thrilled if this conversation kept going.

Re: heroes, esp. male

Sandra said Jan 21, 2007, 11:35 AM:

because these two words leave out entirely those of us who do not identify with one gender or another.

Stunningly fabulous point, dear Siona.

Deep thanks for showing me one massive blind spot.

I guess that's why I liked David's (the lovely man I Iive with), suggestion of 'role model'.
And it certainly doesn't have the charisma of the word Hero which I love… sigh, no easy answers.

And I just had a sneaky idea that the title 'heroes' on the profile page link to this thread…

Much as I love to think of zaadz as being 'beyond' all this, clearly we are not.

I've had more than enough “DO U WANNA BE MY BEST BUDDY + cellphone number” 'friends' invitations to know this :-)

gratitude to all sharing here.

Sandra

Re: heroes, esp. male

crow said Jan 21, 2007, 12:12 PM:

I've said enough (my little essay!) But had to come back to send heartfelt thanks to Sionna for bringing transgender into this conversation. Thank you thank you. Blind spot, yup, Sandra : )

I'm loving this thread. It's neat feeling around in the dark place where language meets social change, together.

bows,
crow

Re: heroes, esp. male

Peggy J [no longer around] said Jan 21, 2007, 1:07 PM:

What heart radiates here…… Beyond labels, beyond words….. just look at the heart shinning out throughout this thread….

We are all appreciating the process…. all this opening of blind spots… Gratitude! That's what I feel right now… Gratitude for the openness, respect, the sharing…. of everyone….!

A Person, Gender-free, Gender-full,
PJ

Re: heroes and heroines

k said Jan 21, 2007, 1:39 PM:

“I’m here - at zaadz, and in the world to see if I can bring the light of awareness to these patterns, and perhaps they can melt into a more open, loving way of being which both includes and transcends gender.”

You’re my shero and my hero. So, that’s the end of my objectivity :)

Re: heroes and heroines

Sandra said Jan 21, 2007, 2:50 PM:

I have a big smile on my face,

amazing really, what can happen on a mere 'thread'.

I ditto Siona - I love to hear personal stories, how someone in particular has been affected by 'blind spots'; how we actually personally feel, or have felt. I know how I so easily go into 'theory' or how it 'should' be or how it 'is', rather than share more about how it is for me, personally, and why I'm saying what I'm saying.

It's time for my bed, but I'm not finished here yet. :-)

Re: heroes and heroines

Burt [no longer around] said Jan 21, 2007, 3:38 PM:

It must be a disorder, but I’ve never been able to learn anything with my mouth open, so I’ve been absorbing this wonderful discussion in silence. I have to admit that it sent me scrambling back to my profile to see who was on my Heroes list (the person who comes up with a cure for short-term memory loss will definitely be added). I see I’d listed two women: Molly Ivins and Margaret Mead, so I don’t suppose the term Heroes automatically shuttled me into make mode. I can’t help but think of the patriarchal porridge that was heaped on my plate as I was coming of age in the 50s and how I began the painful process of transformation to feminism in the 60s and 70s (change isn’t painful; resistance to change is). Lord knows, I’m still a work in progress and the insights you’ve given me in this thread have been invaluable. Thanks, all of you.

Words do have power. They can start wars, sway a hesitant heart, assign us a place in society and even (I discovered early in life) make a batter swing at a sucker pitch. I’m bringing my son up to respect words, and also respect people. I’m all for devising terms that enable men and women alike to keep their dignity. But even as we coin new words, I wish we did a better job of truly listening to the ones we employ now.

Re: heroes and heroines

Ian Gardner said Jan 21, 2007, 4:16 PM:

Much has been said about the power of words. It is true that words have power; many have used the power of words to sway minds, but not all are swayed - why?
Because the power of many, many, 'ordinary' minds - millions now - is greater than the power of words.
Children are taught words but these are meaningless until they are taught meanings directly, by example or by innuendo.
()

Re: heroes and heroines

Ethan said Jan 21, 2007, 8:21 PM:

I have to say that I think language is of the utmost of importance.

“No language is neutral, as any oppressed person will testify; it always reflects the point of view and agenda of the dominant social paradigm. In a racist, sexist, homophobic society, such as currently exists in the United States, language reinforces the privileges of those with privilege; in other words, just as the victors write history, so do the dominants choose the linguistic spin of everyday terminology.”

Dr. E. C. Adams (Unpublished Dissertation)

Drew

Re: heroes and heroines

Nishtha said Jan 22, 2007, 4:25 PM:

I’m grateful to Siona for pointing me/us to this discussion via her blog….I may not have stumbled upon it otherwise. I have really appreciated reading the various posts, some in response to Sandra’s initial question, and others as an ongoing dialogue inspired by the responses. Again, thank you to all of you who have shared your hearts and minds here.

Now, for my two cents….
I agree with all the comments about words having power, and I’ve enjoyed the dialogue of how we, as individuals and as communities and societies, ascribe power - and definitions - to the words we use. For me, the words being discussed on this topic, specifically, belong to a particular subset of words used in our language, words that are considered “labels.”

I think “labels” are a particularly “sticky” (pun intended!) category of words we use in communication. Labels help us make sense of our world but they can also limit how we see the world…again another thank you to Siona for bringing up a category of human beings that are not served by the two-label system of gender classification….

I believe that this beautiful discussion thread is making very clear the difficulties involved in trying to “un-stick” ourselves from labels that have existed for a long time and that have a history of specific associations and connotations…and I’m loving the commitment and care that this community of Zaadzsters is taking to engage in discussion about how to navigate ourselves through this sticky situtation!

Re: heroes and heroines

Ian Gardner said Jan 22, 2007, 11:54 PM:

Into the realm of words and labels through the fact that there are variations in perception and we have a nice pickle!
The solution will come only when we reach the stage of communicating telepathically [as we now do when we are not on Earth].
()

Re: heroes and heroines

pierre said Jan 22, 2007, 11:49 PM:

Thanks All, for an engaging read! Especially Sandra, for beginning and weaving through with sweet sensitivity, Mary, for invoking the “shoulders of our foremothers” whose committed struggle gives us such empowering new opportunity and finally, Siona, for highlighting this conversation which I'd not otherwise have had the time or familiarity with zaadz tools to discover.

Just tonight I was filling in my profile questions. The only “hero” I was sure of is Jesus, and reflecting after Sandra's question that I hadn't considered any women, immediately knew that Mother Theresa belongs there too. I suspect some shadow in my use of “hero” kept me from considering women, just as a 'superhuman' conotation swept away all my other candidates.

The “power of words” gives me great pause in the way I use them publicly and too little in how they function for me alone in my thought. Yet in the single mind is where meaning likely hangs together with its subjective emotional depth and dynamic responsiveness to the spectrum of activity in focus. This thread evoked memories of feminest mentors leading the fight in our denomination for inclusive language in worship and bible study. It wasn't my fight, but they were certainly my teachers. Their public balance of intelligence and agony became a benchmark for personal advocacy for me obscured by patriarchal, european, heterosexual and economic myopia.

I learned to listen purposed toward helpfulness and found deepening exposure to my own uncertainty through years of intensive menswork; well contained soul-searching for the unique mission life's given me enfolded deep in the shadows I've begun to learn to embrace. A strong affirmation of gender uniqueness has been a powerful side-effect.

So, to the question of adding “heroines” to “heroes” I would ask if this wouldn't help us open ourselves to deeper inquiry and appreciation of gender characteristics and how our bodies bring definition to the experience of collective being. As much as I revere “unity” or “oneness”, in experience these seem to be enriched by concrete acknowledgement of personal circumstance, however “divisive”. I suspect the language we choose to use together to contain and guide the balancing act of inner/outer transformation will finally succeed or fail by what it serves to reveal to each about herself. In this regard, our transgender siblings, as sensitive to their unique circumstance as we may seek to be, will hopefully not begrudge us an inclusive option that reinforces the social ambiguity of their experience.
just wondering, pierre

Re: heroes and heroines

Ian Gardner said Jan 23, 2007, 12:08 AM:

I have always thought it a GOOD thing, from the point of view of giving credit where credit is due, to differentiate between the sexes where nouns are concerned; and I have felt it to be obscure negativity that has made people, in recent years, make such a thing of this. I say this as one who has had, and has, equal respect for a person of either sex. It seems to me that, if we really want to take this matter to its logical conclusion we have got to stop referring to people as mothers or fathers and so on as well as calling everyone by the same asexual name. It seems to me that all this is driven more by emotion that rationality!
I say, “Call them what you like but love them equally and dearly.”

Re: heroes and heroines

yosyama [no longer around] said Jan 23, 2007, 9:17 AM:

4 vanities of modern man are putting thick barriers for

Brave Women who are love and compassion

Children who are intelligence of heaven

The Old who are our wisdom

With the Iconoclasts who are the Teachers

“Humanity is on path of the arrogant fool” yet this is not the all of the story b/c there is a struggle on our hands to survive this error and try a life of Compassion, Intelligence, Wisdom and Acceptance – a life with no barriers.

putting it in this frame, into four vanities is for the pain is recalling while n fact there are so many more barriers and prohibitions that arrogance derives us from the goodness that this life is, that in us for the sake of sense of power.

we don’t listen to small children even if they tell us the ultimate truth that we are waiting to hear all our lives, we don’t pay attention because we, mothers and fathers know better, and they must behave or sleep or eat - its such a shame how small children learn to shut up or lie or shout for that reason. and the old, look at the picture of the narcissists who cover these pages, how wise can you really be ? After all this place is more a match up for many. And the women, Christianity itself in its glorious days executed women who were the heart and soul of this land, just like today; how many women do we see around “important events”, and what an ambitious monochromic masculinity . in these intolerable pains, the symbolic is the killing of the iconoclast who regardless of shape, sex , age, skin color etc, is for humanity to teach the truth.

sry

Re: heroes and heroines, children, the old & the Iconoclasts

Sandra said Jan 23, 2007, 11:32 AM:

Such good dialogue, and what inspiring heart beneath many of the posts - I 'should' be packing, but I step in here for a moments break.

I'm not sure if I totally understood all of your post Yosyama, but I felt great depth.

we don’t listen to small children even if they tell us the ultimate truth that we are waiting to hear all our lives

Such a beautiful reminder, thank you.

Sandra

Re: heroes and heroines

Nishtha said Jan 23, 2007, 11:30 AM:

I like the term “role models” - as Sandra suggested may be a good replacement for “heroes.”

“Role models” could be a great gender-neutral term that wouldn't exclude transgendered, hermaphrodites or asexual beings.

“Role models” could also be a great label that allows us to think in “human” terms rather than “super-human” terms (as pierre discussed in his post). I like the notion that “role models” are people that I admire and look up to and aspire to emulate….people whose lives and actions are “models” for how I could live and act in the world.

On the downside (perhaps), “role models” would remove the connotation of “heroes” as mythical figures, larger-than-life characters with special abilities and gifts. We might not think in terms of “Krishna” or “Wonder Woman” in that case….and something might be lost if that happened.

No easy answers I guess!

(The plus side of this very conversation was that I went back to my profile and updated my heroes list to include seven (7!) more women….)

Re: heroes and heroines

Sandra said Jan 24, 2007, 2:11 AM:

Seven! wonderful, Nishtha! I found only one so far.

I'm sitting deep with this, I don't want just to put women up there just 'because' they are women.

I guess it is indicative of my upbringing & the societies I've lived in that I can't think of too many. My mother is feminist in so many of her aspects, extraordinarily so, but still has unconscious chauvinism going on - which I only became aware of the more aware of my own conditioned ideas.

Yes, I'm not sure role-models works 'perfectly' either.

But this thread does, it has opened my heart and eyes and mind to so many beautiful beings who been important to me. Some are alive, and I'm going to try and thank them directly.

Love,

Sandra

Re: heroes and heroines

Peggy J [no longer around] said Jan 24, 2007, 4:01 AM:

Yes, Sandra, this thread has also reminded me of women in my own family who are exemplary 'Role Models'… No one can stand higher as a compassionate mender of family wounds, in my heart-mind, than my own little Grandma Alice.

And, Nishtha! you have hit the target again as you refer to the loss of the mythic types…. Many do inspire me! I cannot imagine putting them on the shelf.

I do not see this thread as The place & time & necessity for the Ultimate label to come forth, as sweet as that would be. What I see is that this discussion is the cultivator, turning over old soil, fertilizing it & planting new/again seeds…. the blooms will come in their own right time…

Peace & Inspiration,
PJ

Re: heroes and heroines

Michael said Jan 24, 2007, 6:40 AM:

Perhaps an Angel Gateway to the MIND could provide another perspective for discussion ?

Re: heroes and heroines

HeyOK said Jan 25, 2007, 2:04 AM:

What a great discussion with everyone sharing so much. Warms the heart and invigorates the mind. As I read through I was thinking of bringing it back to the use of “role models” or mentors even. A list of people we want to emulate. Hero seems so unreachable maybe many would stop trying before they even started myself included. Given the idea that hero were change makers usually and I want to be the change.

And then Siona made the excellent point of sort of losing the mythical connotation… hmmm. So now I have to think some more.

Someone recently asked me how I really think zaadz is changing the world. I hadn't read this yet but this will be my example to answer the next person who asks. The opening of ideas, dialogue, discussion, all are creating the change. That makes you all heros - thanks.

PJ summed it up for me for now: I do not see this thread as The place & time & necessity for the Ultimate label to come forth, as sweet as that would be. What I see is that this discussion is the cultivator, turning over old soil, fertilizing it & planting new/again seeds…. the blooms will come in their own right time…

Thankful to be gardening with such a great bunch of folks.
Blessings, David