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  Albert : ~

Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 14, 9:28 AM:
 

An interview from Zeek Magazine with Rabbi David Ingber:

Shaping Integral Judaism
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 15, 9:47 AM:
 

What a fascinating article Albert! Here are some of the bits that jumped out at me:

It’s a majestic yeshiva, very opulent.But by the end of that time, I was so outside of my body and my aliveness. Part of it was the speed of the immersion, and part was the nature of Orthodoxy-of all orthodoxies. There’s a harshness that models a dysfunctional family structure… I would cry about it a lot, I still had all my sefarim, but I couldn’t go near them. I had post-traumatic God disorder. I would go near my tefillin and have an anxiety attack…
I wanted to be the prodigal son, to return and buy into the belief that everything was written by God, but when I came back to Orthodoxy I found myself saying no. It was possible, ultimately, to say no to those authority structures without being oppositional. I could choose healthier models and still be a part of the Jewish people.And then I met Reb Zalman. He awakened in me that sense that it’s good to be alive. He spoke a language that resonates so deeply for me. That’s been the best part of the last few years…I wanted to be the prodigal son, to return and buy into the belief that everything was written by God, but when I came back to Orthodoxy I found myself saying no. It was possible, ultimately, to say no to those authority structures without being oppositional. I could choose healthier models and still be a part of the Jewish people.And then I met Reb Zalman. He awakened in me that sense that it’s good to be alive. He spoke a language that resonates so deeply for me. That’s been the best part of the last few years.Wouldn’t it be great if we could provide all of these communities with a Judaism that honors the body, heart, mind, and spirit, on premodern, modern, and postmodern levels? We need an integral Judaism.Sometimes I think the organized Jewish community doesn’t have faith in Judaism. They scream [about continuity], because they don’t really believe it. But if they really believed, they could whisper it, and trust that people would hear. We have to have courage, and trust that Judaism won’t die. People gravitate toward that which is alive. We can be so very alive.
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 15, 11:23 PM:
 

Nicole,

thanks for this hand-picked excerpt.

“People gravitate toward which is alive.”

Exactly.

And life is vibrating in so much worlds. Inside and outwards. In his recent YouTube video -I posted it last days - Don Beck summarizes in 2/6 about Large Scale Psychology at least 7 psycholgies which can make sense:

Change and Transformation

Intrapersonal and Somatic Psychology

Interpersonal Psychology

Integral Psychology

Transpersonal Psychology

Poltical Psychology

Ecological Psychology

And Zalman is on spot in general what he says about community. I would add work of Marc Gafni who is at Gaia too. Connecting shadow, sexuality and spirituality.

Kabbala the -not only Jewish- mystics is offering a lots. In general, the Jewish traditions are offering lots of relational views. Implying relaltonship, family, community. It would be interesting how Jewish worldwide diaspora is colored in their life and practice by the respective cultures they live in or are related to.

And again, diaspora communities in general could be a fascinating and rich topic of large scale systems change.
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 16, 4:08 AM:
 
The thing is that what Zalman is promoting isn't new to Judaism. He doesn't say anything new or even revolutionary.

Baal Shem Tov and Chassidus said all of it already in the 18th and 19th centuries.

The term 'Integral Judaism' is a bullshit term, because it's an attempt to claim that Judaism isn't in and of itself enough in terms of expressing an entire human experience.

But I guess it's just another of these 'trying to make Judaism contemporary'. Which is also total bullocks, as Judaism has always been contemporary.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 16, 5:59 AM:
 

Dov, I'm really glad to hear from you on this, because that was what I was wondering. It has seemed to me for many years that it is a very balanced faith. 

But I haven't had a chance to visit any congregations, and I don't know if the worship generally reflects the way the faith embraces all areas of life.

David Ingber talks about Virginia Satir's five freedoms:
—————————————————————————-
“To be in your body is the world of assiyah, the soul-level of nefesh. So we offer multiple modes of sitting and standing, so people can take care of their bodies…The next level is the freedom to be in your voice, which parallels the world of yetzirah, ruach, what you might call the ‘freedom to throat!’ To express yourself, to speak your truth…The next freedom is the world of briyah, the soul-level of neshama: freedom to think. We’re a congregation that tries to support both rational and postrational thinking-the rational and beyond! We haven’t jettisoned our rational faculties in order to leap into the mystical.The fourth freedom is freedom to have silence. The soul-level of chaya, the world of atzilut. We promote as much ecstasy, and as much silence, as we can. The transformative elements happen between the prayers. It’s the white fire, you know?RB: Right, the idea that Torah is written in black fire on white fire…DI: And the fifth freedom, the highest one, the world of adam kadmon and yechidah, is the freedom to commit.
It could be all blather or it could be real or it could be something in between. What interests me is what it really is, and that would be hard to know without being there, right?
Shalom,Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 16, 6:48 AM:
 
Now, I'll readily admit that I am not familiar with the Hebrew TERMS that are used in the article - but I sure am familiar with the CONCEPTS.

The problem, which is touched on in the article, is that the various branches of Judaism put emphasis on one or two of them respectively - but they are all present in Judaism.

Freedom of body: This is readily seen in f.i Traditional Orthodox communities where people come and go, stand, sit, shokel (special movement during prayer) and even dance as they wish in synagogue. It is even more prominent within Chassidic Judaism, where an entire congregation can suddenly erupt in spontaneous and ecstatic dance…

Freedom of throat: Freedom to speak one's truth - “Two Jews, three opinions” - people may not agree, but in a faith so steeped in debating for the sake of Heaven as Judaism, it's hard not to be able to express one's truth, even if it contradicts the entire community.

Freedom to think: See above

Freedom to have silence: No-one is forced to speak, pray or do anything in Judaism.

Freedom to commit: Judaism is a faith of commitment in and of itself ”we will do and we will hear/understand/obey.” Ex 24:7

You cannot live in a faith that has 613 commandments, that has rules about eating, dressing, bathing, speaking, loving, living day-to-day, and not have COMMITMENT. That is impossible - Judaism is all about commitment.

To me what Ingber and Reb Zalman is doing is simply renewing what Rabbi Yisroel (Israel) ben Eliezer (Besht, Baal Shem Tov) did.

It might be that Chassidic Judaism has moved away somewhat from the original ideas of Besht, but it's a misrepresentation to say that Judaism in and of itself doesn't have those concepts or are not practicing them TODAY.

It might also be that the Progressive Community (anything outside Traditional Orthodox Judaism) is not aware of the existence of those concepts, but if that is the case then that is due to their own blinders and willfull ignorance (long standing disdain for traditional Judaism), not a failure in Judaism to be holistic and integral as is, as well as 'charismatic' and 'mystical'.

In that case I would say that Rabbi Ingber and Reb Zalman are merely trying to bring Chassidic Judaism to the non-Orthodox Community. Which is a good thing imo.

Just go to a Chassidic Farbrengen - and then tell me that you came away without having danced, sung, been intellectually stimulated and sat in silent awe as well as spoken your own truth - and I will tell you that you're lying :D

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 16, 9:44 AM:
 

That's been my sense, too, that some of the greatest life is in the Chassidic movement. But they are also some of the most orthodox, right? It looks like Ingber is trying to bring it all together including  both rational and postrational thinking-the rational and beyond! We haven’t jettisoned our rational faculties in order to leap into the mystical.


This is a huge challenge for any congregation to do well.


Shalom,

Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 16, 11:25 AM:
 
That'sbeen my sense, too, that some of the greatest life is in the Chassidicmovement. But they are also some of the most orthodox, right?

Yes, they are - for good and for bad. On the one hand Chassidic Judaism is the carrier of the very core of Judaism - it's life affirming attitude towards what it means to be human, on the other hand Chassidic Judaism is also the preserver of some of the most spiritually lethal attitudes ever seen in religion - some of it fully on par with the most life-denying and hateful forms of Xianism and Islam.

Orthodoxy is good when it uses its energy to preserve and transmit the Initial Spark of Judaism - that of being Holy and Ethical, of being connected directly to  G-d through Torah, but it is bad when it merely preserves traditions for the sake of preserving tradition.

Baal Shem Tov, the Original Chassid, realized this and did exactly what Rabbi Ingber and Reb Zalman is attempting - renewing and revitalizing a Judaism that had become a matter of mind and observance only, in many ways a matter for scholars and Rabbis and not for the people - with no joy, no connectiuon to a living G-d. Maybe it is time for another revitalizing. However, I find it amusing that Rabbi Ingber and Reb Zalman make claims to 'something new' - religious evolution and renewal is nothing new - Conservative Judaism was a renewal of Reform Judaism, Reform Judaism was a renewal of Orthodox Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism was a renewal of Reform and Conservative Judaism; Humanist Judaism was a renewal of Reconstructionist Judaism, and Renewal Judaism is the newest renewal of them all…

Integral Theory will eventually grow dull, legalistic and disconnected from people too - it's not the 'fix all' for anything. There are no 'fix it alls' - and anyone trying to tell you there is, is lying to you and to themselves.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 16, 1:18 PM:
 

 However, I find it amusing that Rabbi Ingber and Reb Zalman make claims to 'something new' - religious evolution and renewal is nothing new - Conservative Judaism was a renewal of Reform Judaism, Reform Judaism was a renewal of Orthodox Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism was a renewal of Reform and Conservative Judaism; Humanist Judaism was a renewal of Reconstructionist Judaism, and Renewal Judaism is the newest renewal of them all…



Renewal Judaism is something I don't think I know anything about. Is it widespread? Lively? What's it about?


Shalom,


Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 16, 3:41 PM:
 
I am not sure Nicole what Renewal Judaism is about. :D

Here's what I found on Wikipedia:
The term Jewish Renewal describes “a set of practices within Judaismthat attempt to reinvigorate what it views as a moribund anduninspiring Judaism with mystical, Hasidic, musical and meditativepractices drawn from a variety of traditional and untraditional, Jewishand other, sources. In this sense, Jewish renewal is an approach toJudaism that can be found within segments of any of the Jewishdenominations.” More…

One interesting thing - when I searched Wikipedia with Renewal Judaism - the first link said Jewish Renewal (redirect New Age Judaism)…lol - I think you can appreciate the joke…if not I'll tell you in private. LOL.

Shalom,
Dov
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 16, 3:48 PM:
 

So… what Albert calls Integral Judaism is nothing but Renewal Judaism - New Age Judaism, and it's been around for years…

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 16, 5:40 PM:
 

So, the prophet was right, and there is nothing new under the sun! Vanity of vanities… :)
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 16, 9:59 PM:
 

Integral- as far as it is understood- is more than the person in interview said. Integration of body, mind and spirit…this is New age.

Everybody who has read INTEGRAL SPIRITUALITY- and i repeat my offering to send the whole book for free as ebook -knows its more:) Far more…

So carefuly reading and chewing and digesting is a virtue . I studied Integral -not only in the context of Wilbers AQAL -dfor 30 years. Unfortunately even the basics are not understood in much talks these days. Wilber f.e. has criticized even transpersonal psychology long ago. Anybody can read these interviews and statements. Maybe not interesting for lots of people. In this case they are no stakeholders in these discussions.):)

Nicole, the prophets are never right as far as devlopments occur. Otherwise they would and could explain whats happened last 250 years:):)

GReetings,

Albert
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 16, 10:27 PM:
 

See this 2000 interview:

On Critics, Integral Institute, My Recent Writing, and Other Matters of Little Consequence: A Shambhala Interview with Ken Wilber
 
Part1:

The Demise of transpersonal psychology
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 16, 10:53 PM:
 

And not to forget: the work of Marc Gafni:

www.marcgafni.com
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 17, 4:51 AM:
 
“Unfortunately even the basics are not understood in much talks these days”

And that of course makes it even more true, I suppose.

As a Swedish poet once said “What is said obscurely is thought obscurely.” (Esaias Tegnér)

If something cannot be expressed or understood in a few words, it's of no benefit to anyone, but is just so many empty words.

Rabbi Hillel said: Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood.” (Pirke Avot 2:4)

The same Rabbi Hillel that, when questioned what is Judaism, answered: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.” (Shabbat 31a)

Occult, obscure, 'science' is 9 times out of 10 just a bunch of hooey, and the 10th time it is not obscure :D:D
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 18, 10:23 AM:
 

So what exactly is obscure? What words, sentences, statments? Please quote some examples:)

Bring light to my darkness:):)
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 18, 4:01 PM:
 
Yes, Albert.

Let's start at the beginning, shall we?

The word 'Integral' says absolutely nothing to a non-initiate. Nada, niente, zilch. One has to be versed in 'Integral Theory' to actually understand what is being said. And no, I am not asking you to explain - because quite frankly, I am not interested in something I cannot understand by simply reading about it.

It's as if I constantly talked about Emunah Yehudi. Or seeded my divreiot with devarim v'drashim in Hebrew when I speak about Emunah Yehudi.

There's a discussion about Feminism in one of the Integral Groups, where the discussion is littered with references to concepts that are not 'translated' into plain English, so a normal reader with no pre-knowledge can understand.

Not even in a dictionary are the jargon and vocabulary given a translation that is understandable to ordinary, every-day readers.

Example:
Like Sen, Ken Wilber wrote a book entitled Integral Psychology, in which he applies his integral model of consciousness to the psychological realm. This was the first book in which he embraced the Spiral Dynamics model of human development. In Integral Psychology, Wilber identifies an “integral stage of consciousness” which exhibits “…cognition of unity, holism, dynamic dialecticism, or universal integralism…”

A whole lot of obscure words there, that can mean anything (and since we are talking about a New Age science, probably don't mean what a regular dictionary would give as a 'translation'.).

But don't worry, Albert, I dislike Kabbalah too, for exactly the same reason - a whole bunch of obscure words, meanings and hidden secret things that are only there to make it sound 'Highly Enlightened and Wise', so people will be impressed by how wise and spiritual the person spouting the drek is.

Just try read some Tanya. :D

Now, there's no need to go speaking about “Integral Judaism”, since Judaism in and of itself is 'integral' - i.e addresses all possible parts of the human and human experience and allows for expressions of all of those possible parts and experiences on a daily basis - without a bunch of color-codes and stages of enlightenment :D:D

Shalom,
Dov
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

SillyOldBear said May 18, 6:37 PM:
 
Here's how I see it:

Every day at sundown the nightingale, a small gray and rather insignificant bird, sings in the forest. It's a beautiful song, and those who hear it are all happy and filled with awe at the song. So people start to catch nightingales and put them in beautiful gilded and jewel encrusted cages, so they can sit at home and listen to the beautiful song looking at the beautiful cage. Except the small, gray and insignificant bird don't sing in captivity. Then someone come up with the brilliant idea to make beautiful mechanical 'birds', enameled, covered in jewels and precious metals, with a ingenious and wonderful mechanism that will allow the  mechanical birds to sing. Soon everyone is learning how to make those mechanical birds and the mechanism that makes them sing.

They are beautiful, they are wonderful miracles of technical achievements, but they are not nightingales, and anyone who has ever heard the nightingale sing in the forest at sundown knows this.

Keep it simple. If you want to hear the nightingale sing, all you have to do is open up the gilded cages that hold your gray, small, insignificant and silent bird and follow it to the forest at sundown and it will sing. It will be a nightingale. It will be everything the mechanical 'birds' are not.
—
Albert, you are offering me a mechanical bird with a mechanical song in a gilded cage. But I have been to the forest at sundown and heard the Nightingale sing. You mechanical bird, with its mechanical song in its gilded cage, however beautiful and ingenious it may be cannot top that.

If you are quite happy with the mechanical bird, its mechanical song in its gilded cage, I am happy for you, but I prefer the small, gray and insignificant bird as it sings to me at sundown in the forest, to me the mechanical bird and its song can never be anything but fake.

Shalom,
Dov
  andrew : ~SmAsHInG dUaLiTy~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

andrew said May 18, 7:22 PM:
 

good points on both sides here! 

i can also see a danger in integral theory becoming as dogmatic in it's assertions as any other religion. and like dov says, go directly to the source….

problem is though, the written word gets interpreted in ways that assert that the universe is 6000 some odd years old. that serpents and asses can talk, that god is a lousy father who pits sibling against sibling for sport and example, that the historical record is fact when there is just as much evidence that says the historical record is exaggerated ethnocentric geo-political inflation, etc., etc., et., yes, i could go on and on and on….

on the other hand, the basics of integral are not all that hard to grok, even i get it, so it might be that dov. is being a little stubborn in saying that he can't understand it………….

one thing about me, i'll take the time to study something before i dismiss it outright…………

and yes, the jews have a rich spiritual heritage, but so do we all………
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

SillyOldBear said May 19, 6:01 AM:
 

Thank you andrew :D

problem is though, the written word gets interpreted in ways thatassert that the universe is 6000 some odd years old. that serpents andasses can talk, that god is a lousy father who pits sibling againstsibling for sport and example, that the historical record is fact whenthere is just as much evidence that says the historical record isexaggerated ethnocentric geo-political inflation, etc., etc., et., yes,i could go on and on and on….

Again we agree - however, there are many ways of reading the written word, andrew :D As you well know:D You'll be hard pressed to find that interpretation coming from me - and you know that - you're just trying to rib me :D

As for me being stubborn LOL. Yes I can be quite stubborn, and in this case, it's a matter of simply not seeing why Judaism needs to be renamed to be acceptable or good. If Albert wants to find an integration of body, soul spirit and whatnot in Judaism, all HE has to do is to study JUDAISM - because it's all there. He doesn't have to bring such integration from outside Judaism.

How can I say that? Because Judaism doesn't split human into bits and pieces like Greco-Roman and Indian religions (like Xianism and Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Madam Blavatsky), so there is no need for “Integration of body, mind and spirit…” in Judaism - because they were never separated to begin with. Human, like G-d, is One in Judaism. Albert would know this if he studied Judaism.

As for not understanding the color-coding and stages of enlightenment - to use an expression most people in Gaia would understand - it doesn't resonate with me. How do I know this, if I have not studied Integral in depth?

Because I have been a practicing spiritual human being for the last 30 years, and I know that if something I read doesn't strike me within the first page of my reading, it's not part of my path.

It is also not a matter of 'not grokking it' as much as knowing that my Inner Kid, who is the Keeper of my spirituality doesn't get it, and having learned that if he doesn't get something spiritual, it's something I cannot use. So why spend time on studying it - when I have an ocean of Jewish Tradition to study, an ocean of which I have so far only skimmed the first drop?

People don't seem to get how I can be quite happy being just Jewish and be satisfied with what that Path offers me without adding all sorts of foreign elements. Well, it's simply a matter of what makes my boat rock, isn't it? And Judaism, without all the additives of Greco-Roman and Indian (including Madame Blavatsky) spirituality rocks my boat just fine. Thank you!

Shalom,
Dov
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

Albert said May 19, 8:27 AM:
 

SoB,

btw I am baptized roman catholic. However I consider myself as engaged in authentic spirituality.

My interest is in no way to reform any religion. And I see no superiority in any of them. They simply belong to the conveyor belt as Kw expressed. And they have their own dignity and value for milliions.

It seems interesting to hear Jewish voices however who express and articulate in some way or another integral aspects. Take only Rabbi Miachel lerner, Andrew Cohen and Mac Gafni..):)

So its perhaps not as simple as you suggest. From all established religions some people show this interest. Even from atheists, agnostics or new atheists. We know the spectrum and I discussed it with C4 et al in length.

Therefore integral is a precious attractor for those who simply want to explore it.

Most people I know have zero interest in either conventional religion nor Integral. So I consider myself as living in diaspora:):)it serves me very well.

isnt life great?…

Albert
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

Nicole said May 19, 9:07 AM:
 

Hi Albert,

I don't believe that this was your intent, but the beginning of your post could be read as implying there is a disconnect between Roman Catholicism and authentic spirituality.

I believe authentic spirituality can be found in every religion.

Would you mind clarifying?

Love,

Nicole
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

Albert said May 19, 9:14 AM:
 

I appreciate some liturgy in roman catholic church. And forms of connection with God. In old and new testamnent.

I served in the chuch before I was 20 for years in 3 different functions. I simply see that its theology need a radical update. A third Vaticanum. Maybe the next pope can initiate it.

Best,

Albert
  Ketutar : The One and Only

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism - an allergory

Ketutar said May 19, 6:36 AM:
 

Serpents and asses can talk and do every day. You don't need a Scripture to know that. You just need to keep your ears open.

Word, written, spoken, expressed in any manner, gets interpreted all the time. Your words, my words, 6000 years old words, words uttered today.Some of the interpretations are more probable than others, some of them are more volatile than others - none of it is the words' fault and the words shouldn't be punished for this by being judged as meaningless, harmful and what not, and condemned to be destroyed or altered or adjusted to a “new” reality. There is no “new” reality, no “new” age. The reality is still the same it was 6000 years ago. Sure we have more technical and scientific inventions, but the human being creating the reality is still the same.

The truth in the 6000 years old words is still there for those who want to see them. If you want to see the weaknesses and contradictions, that is what you will see. Mere studying isn't enough, because you study with intention and agenda.

SillyOldBear isn't defending Judaism as The One Religion, but he is defending the rich spiritual heritage that is Judaism. He has never said no other form of spirituality is valid or has meaning - if you like a mechanical bird better than the grey insignificant little featherball, that's fine, but don't try to push the mechanical bird to everyone and claim that people don't understand when they prefer the “real thing” to the mechanical wonder. They might well understand, understand better than they think, and just because of this understanding they don't “understand” the fascination of wheels and counterweights.
In India they “cleaned” a 1000 years old temple and by doing so they sandblasted 1000 years old paintings and detailed sculptures to kingdom come. It looks to me that all the efforts to “reshape” good old spiritual heritage to fit the “new age”, one sandblasts off a lot of the fine print…

Temple_blasted
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 19, 7:43 AM:
 

A big part of the problem with Integral in terms of dealing with any religion is the basic assumption that if one is truly religious, one is at a very low level on the scale - one has to shed “mythic” views to begin to ascend toward Integral heights. 

Transcend and include is the cry. But how can one include what has been scornfully discarded as infantile?

I enjoy many aspects of Integral but it necessarily fails to take any religion seriously on its own terms.

Peace,

Nicole
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 19, 8:58 AM:
 

i take ANY religion serious. And I know KW too.
However if I -can only speak for myself- had to speak with the Pope and Hans Küng about some special points in catholic theology I know whom I would support.

Albert
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 19, 10:32 AM:
 
A bigpart of the problem with Integral in terms of dealing with any religionis the basic assumption that if one is truly religious, one is at avery low level on the scale - one has to shed “mythic” views to beginto ascend toward Integral heights.

Thank you Nicole!

I think it is this basic assumption with proponents of Integral that I have intuitively sensed, and naturally objected to, since it's a very disrespectful and arrogant attitude.

Most people, whom I have encountered, who do not connect with a traditional religious path (I.e Judaism, Xianism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism) seem to be of the conviction that if one feels connected to a specific religious path one has accepted everything that religious path contains line, hook and sinker and walk through life with blinders on, totally brainwashed and cannot by definition be spiritual. I find that idea personally offensive, not only because it's untrue, but because they take it upon themselves to define my religious beliefs for me and judge me based on their definitions, as well as dismiss me as a person, as a human being as 'lesser' than they and 'nonspiritual'.

It's as if they are telling me “if you can find something worthwhile and beautiful in something as old as religion, you must be stupid and undeveloped.”

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 19, 2:32 PM:
 

It's always dangerous to make assumptions. There are so many ways to be a believer of any kind. 

Let's see what KW has to say about religion. I know his views have changed often but here's an article from about a year ago, fairly recent:

You are the river - salon interview /2008/04/28/ken_wilber/

“There are at least two main types of religion. One is dependent upon a belief in a mythic or magic dogma. That is certainly what most people mean by religion. Science has pretty thoroughly dismantled the mythic religions. But virtually all the great religions themselves recognize the difference between “exoteric” or outer religion, and “esoteric” or inner religion. Inner religion tends to be more contemplative and mystical and experiential, and less cognitive and conceptual.”


“Those kinds of mythic approaches aren't wrong. They're just a stage of development. Look at [Swiss philosopher] Jean Gebser's structural stages of development. They go from archaic to magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic to integral and higher. Magic and mythic are actual stages. They're not wrong any more than saying “5 years old” is wrong. It's just 5 years old. We expect there to be higher stages. There was a time when the magic and mythic approaches years ago were evolution's leading edge of development. So we can't belittle them.”

 
But take heart, Dov. He's also critical of New Age:


“They are confused. Even people like Deepak Chopra say this. These are good people; I know them. But when they say consciousness can act to create matter, whose consciousness? Yours or mine? They never get to that. It's a very narcissistic view.”
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 19, 3:30 PM:
 

LOL, Nicole - I don't like Deepak Chopra either, but for another reason :D

But yes I find Wilber's approach/attitude extremely arrogant, disrespectful and quite *full of himself*.

Did I just place myself on a Fatwa-list for criticizing The Prophet??

:D:D

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 19, 3:37 PM:
 

Oh, don't worry, Dov, you've got plenty of company in that view :)
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 19, 5:23 PM:
 

Ok, good. I was worried I might have to go underground or something - would displease the Wifey to no end. Can't have displeased wife.

LOL
Dov
  andrew : ~SmAsHInG dUaLiTy~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

andrew said May 19, 6:42 PM:
 

there's a guy whos marriage is gonna last!))))

yeah don't worry, ken's on a trademark flurry!lol integral christianity, integral judaism, integral islam, integral hinduism, integral buddhism!

well your a credit to your people dov……..i hope people like nicole and i have helped soften your heart towards christians…………..
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 19, 8:11 PM:
 
He!
Thanks, andrew!

I think it's good that there are various ideas and theories out there, that people, as Albert put 'can explore' those ideas and theories.

I don't often refer to the Greek Scriptures, but as we are all G-d's children we are also all given the ability to 'distinguish between spirits'. This means, in my opinion, that every individual will, in the end, have to be more or less eclectic in their approach to their own personal spirituality - we all look at our chosen path and take from it what we can use and leave what we cannot use. And we do exactly that. That is how we are set-up as humans.

As I shared in a blog entry - I have added practices to my own personal Judaism that are not traditional, but not prohibited either, thus making them distinctly Jewish by using Jewish words and Jewish Tradition to incorporate them with my personal practice.

I discussed this with a friend in private - how I dislike syncretism, but embrace eclecticism. I pick from all the Jewish Traditions - Orthodox (I wear tzitzit, tallit and lay tefillin), Conservative (I practice less stringently in some areas such as times and eating) Reform (I do not put Talmud above Torah) Renewal (I have a contemplative approach to prayer) and Humanist Judaism (I believe society should be strictly Secular Humanist, i.e agnostic). In all my searches for what I need spiritually I have stayed within Judaism. Looked into the Jewish Tradition for the elements I needed. It has to do with my personal ethics I think.

It would be unfair to me and the G-d I worship for me to try to serve two spiritual systems at once. From a Torah perspective it would amount to idolatry or as Xians would say “serve two masters”. I can't do that, and to be honest, I don't think any human can successfully do that, and that's why the prohibition against worshipping more than one G-d (I didn't say which one is the One, as I am also a henotheist/monolatrist):D is there. Human spirituality is not built to hold more than one devotion at a time.

As for my heart softening towards Xians - I only ever had one group of Xians which I cannot abide, which I think is evil incarnate - Evangelical Fundamentalists and those who pursue my People to convert them to Xianism. :D The rest I find quite harmless :D and on occasion quite pleasant and kind :D:D

Shalom,
Dov
  andrew : ~SmAsHInG dUaLiTy~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

andrew said May 19, 8:55 PM:
 

yeah, i hear ya! i'm a bit of an eclectic spirit myself:)

i've mentioned to albert before that integral probably errs in trying to label people into nice tidy boxes just because it appears to suit the map…….

for the life of me i can't remember a conversation on cbc radio with this rabbi in 2007 talking about evangelical fundamentalists. but i do remember it being very profound and intelligent and i'm quite sure he said that those folks do have something to teach us, although i'm also quite sure it isn't what they think………………….
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 19, 9:28 PM:
 

Hi Dov,

everybody reading my blog long enough know its at the end of the day not about exploring. Its about lving , breathing, feeling and making decisions.

However Western history in last 250 years made progress because of exploration and initiating new perspectives.

Wilber isnt a propfet for me nor is it any other person on earth. I am following my own instincts, intuition and insights. The respect for the genius in each person demands however to honor everybody who has done something extraordinary. As much for everything ordinary.

I see lots of cheap criticism these days. As much as cultic childish followers. Truth is in the development of ones unique self.
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 4:20 AM:
 
However Western history in last 250 years made progress because of exploration and initiating new perspectives.

Yes, you would believe that. Doesn't make it true though. Each of the explorations, innovations and perspectives are standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before them. To limit human spiritual development and social success to the last 250 years only bears witness to an extreme lack of historicity and understanding of what human and history is.

I see lots of cheap criticism these days. As much as cultic childish followers. Truth is in the development of ones unique self.

Agreed, Albert - but just because you can't develop your unique self using traditional religion, doesn't mean that others can't.

The attitude that promotes the idea of traditional religious paths as 'cultic childish' is arrogant, dismissive and rather egocentric - just like Ken Wilber. If that is the “living , breathing, feeling and making decisions” Integral will inspire in people, I have even more reason not to be interested.:D

Shalom,
Dov
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 4:29 AM:
 
andrew my friend,

Ahh… That would be Rabbi Tovia Singer…:D at Outreach Judaism Love him!

Yes - the Evangelicals have taught a lot of Jews how to read the Tanakh and be ready to debunk the Evangelical claims. LOL. They thought to create converts, and instead are now facing an army of battle ready Jews meeting them with their own tools. A modern day Maccabean army:D.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 20, 5:29 AM:
 

ha! andrew, trademark flurry, that's a good one! :)
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 20, 5:57 AM:
 

Hi Albert,

I just finished a long reply which was lost when my connection blipped.

So, in brief - Vatican III -  a lot of interest from within the church in 2002. 

But the current pope is apparently not at all interested, and Vatican II needs another 100 years to be completed - according to this

You know how much I enjoy your blogs and that I myself am far from being wedded to a conservative view of any religion.

But I'm inclined to agree with Ketutar and her wonderful example about the Indian temple, that in trying to “improve” religions the essence may be lost.

Peace,

Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 6:06 AM:
 

But I'm inclined to agree with Ketutar and her wonderful example about the Indian temple, that in trying to “improve” religions the essence may be lost.

Going out on a limb here…

Kind of reminds me of Mao's Cultural Revolution or The Taliban's destruction of Buddha Images.
  Albert : ~

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Albert said May 20, 7:03 AM:
 

A church which cannot renew itself is dead over time. There are some stupid positions the Vatican is holding. However I am no reformator and leave it to the engaged theology. There is no essence which is free from evolution. Otherwise reformation by Luther would not have been successful.

My personal interest is in change of social, poltical, cultural and personal transformation for the next 30 years. Clearly with a European focus contributing to the transition of the leading edge in North America and Europe . While fully engaging in the emergence of the BRIC Cultures and so called Third worlds too.

This is an enormous challenge which needs global constellations and an understanding of patterns of change. While spirituality is essential here a clear mastery and knowledge about natural design sequences and perspectives is at the core of this change making.
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 20, 7:38 AM:
 

Hi Albert,

You've mentioned Marc Gafni a number of times, and I just noticed an link to an article of his on Integral Life in the IPS pod - 

Dov, what do you think of this?

To See With God's Eyes: The Story of Abraham
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 8:04 AM:
 
Albert - this Group has nothing to do with the Vatican or Catholicism. Now you have something to say about Judaism, go ahead, or request to have this thread moved to the Interfaith Corner (where you should have placed it to begin with if you are going to use Catholicism as your touch stone.) You might think that it's all the same, Xianism, Judaism, Islam, but I assure you that they are not. This isn't the G-d Pod.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 20, 8:27 AM:
 

Hi Dov and Albert,

My fault, really, as I first started the focus on Catholicism.

Sorry!

Shalom,

Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 8:18 AM:
 
Nicole,

As I suspected - Marc Gafni's understanding of the Torah Text and of the role of Avraham differs very little from the Traditional Jewish understanding, which isn't surprising at all - “the mystery of Hebrew mysticism” has been around for ages - literally :D Needless to say I enjoyed reading the article.

No need for Integral Anything. Marc Gafni is simply picking up a very OLD and in Judaism very central Tradition, but apparently the Integralists either don't know or believe this - perhaps because if they were to admit to this they would also have to admit that there is no need for their ideas within Judaism, and their  'max 250 years in existence to be of use' would become meaningless.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 20, 8:23 AM:
 

Thanks, Dov. That was my impression but I appreciate your confirming it.

Shalom,

Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 12:13 PM:
 
Torah is G‑d’s wisdom. Intellect, by its very nature, allows for – and indeed demands – different avenues of understanding; how much more so when dealing with the infinite wisdom of the Infinite G‑d. Our sages tell us that Torah can be interpreted in four different general ways: peshat, remez, drush and sod. (From a post about how to interpret Torah)

Rabbi Gafni is simply applying drush and sod on the text and sharing his understanding - like countless of Rabbis have done before him - there really is nothing exceptional about it, nor is it less than 250 years old :D - there's no need to rename Judaism, Kabbalah or Midrash 'Intergral' because of what he shares :D, It's just plain old Judaism.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 20, 5:55 PM:
 

Dov, thanks for pointing me back to that post about Torah interpretation. Imagine, 600,000 ways!

Shalom,

Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Explorer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 20, 6:41 PM:
 
You are welcome, Nicole!

What most people don't know, and don't understand is that in order to do a SOD on a text, you really, really have to KNOW the pshat and remez and drush by heart of ALL WRITTEN Torah, and that takes time - normally you don't get to the SOD until you've been married and have a few kids :D I.e around 40 :D - and that ONLY provided that you have entire the Torah, Mishna and Gemara firmly established in your life and mind…

So many wants to jump right to the 'esoteric stuff' because it's cool, and it makes them feel 'wise' and 'learned', and for some reason they tink it will grant them prestiges and power. But without a firm foundation in Torah, Mishna and Gemara, and a life of Practice, the esoteric SOD will only be so many empty words.

Shalom,
Dov
  Nicole : wakingdreamer

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

Nicole said May 21, 7:42 AM:
 

That makes total sense, Dov. It used to puzzle me that the Kabbalah was off-limits for under 40s, and those who didn't have a very good grasp of Torah, Mishna and Gemara. No longer!

Shalom,

Nicole
  SillyOldBear : Gaia Child

Re: Shaping Integral Judaism

SillyOldBear said May 21, 10:35 AM:
 

Nicole,

A Traditional Orthodox boy starts his Torah education at age 3 - with Alef Beit and Chumash with Rashi, then he moves on to the Mishna, so that by the time he has passed his Bar Mitzvah, he is ready for Gemara, by the time he is 30 he will be well into the post Talmudic Sources, and when he is done with them (and of course he will be studying the rest of the Tanakh, and Midrashim along the way) - and not until then, is he considered spiritually and intellectually ready for the absolute basics of Zohar, if his Rabbi thinks he's ready :D.

Shalom,
Dov