Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

 if you take away the cosmetic adjustments and the cultural programing, the actual difference between man and woman is very slight.
catagories make things seem safer.
less to think about.
be a person first.
be a human.
be yourself and be real.
oh- and neutered males rock!

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

Well… 

…slicing and dicing does seem to be a coping mechanism of the chaotically challenged.  I agree.  And I've spent more than a little energy bitching about that now and then. 

And also, hermaphrodism (sp?) seems to be a characteristic of lower life-forms.  Not higher.  Even some plants have male and females specimens of each, which makes them vulnerable in case only one survives in an area from, say, a fire - then they all die.  That's usually a sign of complexification, which is advanced.  So, yes, we are human first, m or f/m second.  And there also needs to be a way for gender to not be a curse as well - we need to rise to the challenge, not submerge below it. 

Is there a type of Trans-gender that is clearly above and different than Pre-gender? 

If so, how would we express that?

And if we express that, does that change our relationship to gender?

Wonderful thoughts, Mike. 

~ww

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

yes i was just thinking this: adam was man and woman, female and male an hermaphoridite.    been both he was complete but …..lonely so god created eve for adam not feel lonely. complete and lonely another touch in need complete but not feeling so only an outside touch word view could satisfie. alter, the other not me came along for satisfaction , pain misunderstanding so that we have to look into it mesure desire, need possible etc and have always no choice in a world of plenty… but where all meet again simple? maybe will in a special form.
“do what you will that's the law.                                what's the law?               love is the law, love under will.”                 so writes alister crowlly                                           

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

I never really imagined what Adam would have been like before the emergence of Female.  That's an inneresting image.  It couldn't have been the typical male physique.  I'm sure of it.  It had to have been more generic.

I think I'm understanding what you're getting at here.  The kind of dynamic that splitting creates is fundamentally important.  Even if one believes in evolution as opposed to Creation, there still had to have been a point where the split between genders happened.  And it must have changed everything.  It would necessarily create a third entity - aside from offspring.  The entity of “Us”.  Relationship.  Reciprocity and mutuality.  Vital interdependence which can range from torment to rapture.  These things would never have even arisen, much less measured the quality of our character had gender not emerged.  We need the “Other” in order to transcend ourselves. 

Crowley's stuff interests me alot.  I love the “do what thou wilt…” stuff.  Especially in the context of “love under will”.  It was a huge course correction from the stagnant murk of empty commitments and sterile contracts. 

Thank you, firemusic. 

I'll be back later to ponder more. 

~Ww

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

thanks, your learning taught me much

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

and god must be nor he or she but a peacfull feeling of true love. one in all and all in one.
me you her he personifications of constraining views of each one inside [and] out. maybe gender was a necessary thing that happend with the whole nuture. it classifies, oposes but also relate to and link, all the best love

Gender, Sex, and Hermaphroditism

So, I am new to this pod and this is my first post ever, but I wanted to jump in!

My research is limited, in that I have not dedicated all of my time to it for the last eight months (which is about when I started reading on gender issues and changed my own gender identity), but what I have discovered is this…

Things are far more complicated than I ever knew, and this is turning out to be a lot of fun to learn!  And egad there is a lot of I have not learned yet.  Call this a data dump of an aspect of what I know.  :)

Intersex conditions are apparently very common amongst humans.  I have read that between 1 in 100 and 1 in 3000 people are born with an intersex condition.  It is common enough that there is medical terminology associated with it.

In addition to “male” and “female”, there is also “male pseudohermaphrodite”, “female pseudohermaphrodite”, and “true hermaphrodite”.  While the condition may be accurately recorded on birth records, it is apparently still considered a huge crisis and the condition is “corrected” as soon as the doctors and the family can decide whether the child should be Male or Female.

Experiential (and thus incomplete) evidence indicates to me that these corrections are often not correct at all, and that the child runs the risk of growing up somehow knowing that something is wrong.  This accounts for at least a small part of the adult gender (sex) reassignments.  The remainder, which my experience shows as much more common, are people who were born distinctly one sex or the other but grow up feeling that their birth sex is incorrect.  So, sometimes these people will take the risk and do the full conversion from one sex to the other.

Incidentally, I have found very few people of alternate gender, and so I have not been able to figure out the range of feeling that they have on how their sex relates to their gender.

I have no idea how this can possibly be brought into agreement with Genesis; but I am okay with that as I have become accustomed to seeing a reality that does not correspond to what is described in the Bible.

Re: Gender, Sex, and Hermaphroditism

LOL

Welcome Savanni!  I am so glad you're here.  The Genesis thing is just a convo starter, and I welcome anything you have to offer.  I love the irony, however, in that you reflect the “gender” of God perhaps more than most.  Revel in that, m'dear!  I will.

I am hungry to find out how humanity is going to reflect on this predicament - Spiritual beings having a gendered experience.  Because it hasn't been doing a very good job so far, and I want it to do better. 

Blessings to you and, truly, Welcome!!

I have to go to work.  I hope to return to post more soon.

~Ww

Post Script:
Quick question: how should we handle the pronoun situation?  He/she?  S/he?  Help!

Re: Gender, Sex, and Hermaphroditism

I have no preference.  Most of the world considers me male, so I accept that.  There are many competing categories of pronouns that are useable.  Wikipedia has a big article on Gender Neutral Pronouns.  I personally use e/em/eir (the Spivak set) when referring to myself or to someone of alternate or unknown gender.

But I also do not demand any rules on it.

Zaadz does not technically provide the correct category for me, which would be androgyne (non-gendered).  I just chose genderqueer because it is close, and the fluid aspect incorporates me.

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

Hello!

New here and are just jumping in with some thoughts. Hope it doesn't interupt the present flow of the discussion.

On the one hand I am a more or less ordinary hetereosexual man. On the other hand it has always irritated me when people have been separating humanity in two big general groups: men and women, and then I somehow is not part of one of these two.

Lot's of feminists are saying that the female experience is so total different from mens etc and that we are always seeing the world throug the lenses of our sex or gender.

Well, of course we are alsways seeing the world through who we are and what we know etc, but for me and in me gender is not an absolute kategory. I feel first like a soul (or something) and then many other things, and a boy or man is probably one of them, but not as a very fixed thing, and not as a strong identity. In fact I have often felt more the same as many of my woman friends, and felt than many of my male friends were more alien.

So…. I could have said more…. but this was at least just to say that gender identity, and sex preferences are two very separate things…

Love from Øyvind in Norway

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

Hi all,
I'm new to this pod, and I'm really interested in this discussion. I've been an advocate in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community for several years and I have several friends who are transgender in some way. Some identify merely as “genderbenders” while others are going through full transsexual transition. If I have learned anything from them, it is that gender is fluid and it is what you make it. I have done some experimenting with gender, and though I find I identify most closely with my birth sex, there are definitely some cases in which I am most comfortable being androgynous. I believe in a spectrum of possible gender expression and I believe each person should be free to express whatever gender or lack thereof they wish.
Cheryl

Re: Random thoughts on Gender...

hi cheryl.

hey i grew up in a suburb of cleveburg, on the west side. i visited twice last year, for a wedding and a funeral, but other than that haven't been there two other times in twenty years.

back to thread, i'm not convinced gender identity is higher or lower on the evolution scales. and it doesn't matter to me where it lies. only remaining true to one's heart or body/mind is important. when it comes to labels, i say i'm an androgyne. tho currently i've only manifested male genitalia, i feel the female genitalia dormant, and expect it to re-emerge in time. i have no desire to force the issue with surgery. that would be like forcing a baby to be born premature for no reason.

welcome to the pod, hope you find more to share with us.