Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Since I've spent many years pursuing both, and am a great lover of the enlightenment systems, it always surprizes me a little bit that I have come to the conclusion that…
 
1. wisdom is better than enlightenment.

Naturally, a statement like this immediately requires one to consider a minimum of three questions.

1.a. What is meant by 'wisdom'?

1.b. What is meant by 'enlightenment'?

1.c. What is meant by 'better'?

And a couple of ancillary questions, such as:

1.d  Is 'enlightenment' a form of 'wisdom'?

1.e  Is 'wisdom' a form of 'enlightenment'?

Before I somewhat idly start to address these questions, I was wondering if there was anyone who wanted to argue the opposite case, which would be…

2. enlightenment is better than wisdom.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

What are the “enlightenment systems”?

(I'm afraid I'll be sorry I asked)

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, an “enlightenment system” is any organized body of ideas and work (writing, teachers, and artwork, typically) that teaches a model and method of enlightenment.

Usually you'll find an “enlightenment system” associated with a religion and a culture and a region.

And “enlightenment systems” change over time - they evolve somewhat like living organisms do. So, each enlightenment system tends to have it's roots in some earlier system, and over time it tends to change into some new system.

And, there are 'branches' and 'trunks' for enlightenment systems, a lot like the tree diagram you would draw to show the evolution of life on earth.

For instance, the Vedas, ancient oral transmission books from India, represent one of the oldest 'trunks' of enlightenment ideas.

The vedas evolved (to oversimplify) into Yoga and Buddhism. Yoga and Buddhism are closley related, but they have a radically different idea of what enlightenment means - altho both are rooted in the vedic idea of rebirth, and freedom from rebirth.

Both Yoga and Buddhism seperate into dozens of smaller schools, and each school represents an 'enlightenment system” - an organized teaching of how to acheive enlightenment.

Now, to these eastern models have to be added the christian, judaic, and islamic models - each of these religions has an associated 'enlightenment” teaching, altho in the west the goal is not usually described as enlightenment.

Then you've got bunches of other younger systems, many of which are too young to yet be called an “enlightenment system”, but they share a lot of the qualities of am enlightenment system.

And side systems like taoism, shamanism, confucianism, and a host of other 'isms' that have some kind of enlightenment or self-development teaching, and idea of how to either perfect oneself, or free oneself.

So, basically, it's an organized group of ideas and teachings that claims to be able to produce enlightenment if followed.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

this is a perculiar question, i dont really understand the context behind it?… i was listening to an osho talk today, and someone asked him ''that he is only a beginner and asked if osho could define truth for him. ''

when osho talks,he always sounds like hes about to make a joke about something, i donno, maybe its just the accent. i noticed the same thing with george bush jr. something about the tone of his voice that makes you think hes thinking one thing while he's saying something different.

osho said, ''its good that you say that you're still a beginner–go back!'  all the people with advanced knowlege just make more trouble for themselves.

the truth is more about innocence. like how in his last days socrates is reported to have said, 'i know one thing, i know that i know nothing'

but bill i guess ill try to answer the question for the sake of discussion, and just think that both terms are the synomous with each other in the lexicon of spirituality. they seem to be equivalant in my view.(?) is silence better than stillness?

who knows, perhaps…

peace n love guys
n take care

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Yep, it _is_ a peculiar question.

Kind of a koan.

Or a life and death puzzle.

The terms are not synonyms. You would be hard pressed to argue that they are.

Altho, I think it's very common to think they are synonyms. The meaning(s) of the word “enlightenment”, as we use it in this culture, is rather different from the words used to refer to “enlightenment” by most enlightenment systems.

That's why I inserted all those “What is meant by…” qualifiers.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well ok, if the question is qualified as a koan, then to which the koan is directed towards, i.e. the introverted mind, or no mind. then both those concepts become void, or empty and so they are equivalent.

i donno. just my opinion.

take care as always.
peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, it's more than a koan, actually.

It's a warning.

But, in order to talk about this, I have to ask, what's your model of enlightenment?

What do you think it means to be enlightened?

“Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and means nothing, really.

So what genuine traditional word world you use for your model of enlightenment?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well my model of enlightenment is love. more and more love. never ending, never running out.  always  present.


but id rather not use the word enlightenment unless necessary .from the people i talk to , it just creates a sense of distance and separation which in turn furthers our own fears which stem from our own  ignorance

we create so many false enlightenments and false idols, coming from false perfections created by limited expectations

the ignorance of ourselves, creates fear which isolates us into multiple divisions

thats the play of consciousness, its not a bad thing, but its also natural to realise who you are for the sake of happiness. its not outside of us nor is it limited to time and space.
everything and everyone are connected whether they are conscious of it or not. realization or enlightenment is herenow, and even if we think we miss that moment, there's no worries, since this present moment never ends in reality

have a nice weekend
peace

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Ahhhhhhh…… The “Love” models.

Bhakti enlightenments.

Bhakti is pretty safe. You're liable to hurt others with bhaktis, but you're pretty safe yourself, no great confrontation with reality is an inherent part of the process.

And we live on a planet where hurting others is par for the course, so the moderate liklihood of hurting other with bhaktis is an entirely acceptable risk.

(Compared to the risks of the Moksha models…)

In fact, I think of it as part of bhakti's charm.

Ahhh, sweet Bhakti. Such fond and delicious memories. Everyone should do bhaktis, at least for a while. Ten, twenty years is about right.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

wow bill, thats a pretty complex cynicism you got going there. let's see if we can untangle it a bit… this love is safe in terms that it is our natural home, but its not safe in terms of illusion. there is MUCH need for healing others, and as i read through the various philosophies, they started to be repeating the same thing, and concluded knowledge by itself is useless.

i couldnt really figure out maya, by discrimination of the mind alone. so i accept the illusion with love and it melts away. i do like your encouargement of bhakti, but should know that bhakti is forever, why limit it and judge it with time? no need. the jnani in the same regard is not limited by time and space.


take care

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Yes, complex cynicism. It's not really cynicism, at least not in the sense that word is used in the modern conversation, but I understand that it would seem that way.

It's more like stoicism, technically.

But I'll accept the “complex cynicism” labeling, it's close enough, and does capture much of the spirit of the perspective.

So how's your bhakti going?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

sure, stoicism is fine.  and its interesting cuz i started out with more of a philosophical approach and most of my friends online were hare krishnas and i dont really get what was so interesting about their stories of krishna. but eventually the bhakti wore off on me.

these days ive been pondering about beliefs and their validity. because i would struggle with my parents if they didnt see my perspective. and i would think if god is in all of us, and we're all connected, why is it so hard for us to simply work together? eventually it ocurred to me that  the self which is all of us can 't be perceived by  beliefs 


in one of her video satsangs, gangaji related to us that we should be able to accept good and bad parts of ourselves. or else it builds up a facism in us. at this the audience got a little shocked. and she continued that yes there can be a spiritual facism just like a political facism. thinking that we should we guard the good and kill the bad, just propogates more 'wars'.

so we dont need to train ourselves like animals always beating ourselves up, everytime we make mistakes and letting ourselves learn out of guilt and pain conditioning. thats why some people will hate you even if you love them. because they hate themselves; to go on and love them dislodges their ego of 'i hate myself' so they will make it a point to hate you to make sure that you hate them as well to confirm their existence of 'i hate myself'

but like plato says, 'no one knowingly does evil, for if they were to realise what was right they would pursue that path' because if you investigate the sociopaths and any kind of delinquet all of them have some kind of justification so that their consciounce wouldn't bother them.

but if we're aware of the problem, the answers and solutions come immediately. not necessarily in our timely expectations, but the solution is in the problem nevertheless. all sages and teachers of truth have been the embodiments of love and compassion. doesnt matter what path theyve come to realise the self.

seeing brahma's sons wanting to realise the self, shiva had compassion on them and incarnated into dakshinamurti and stayed in absolute mouna. with the guidance of silence alone, the brahmins realised the self.

even ramana when he would tell stories like this would well up with emotion. the love never ends, nor finds limitations in all of reality and consciousness.

take care
peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

What you just wrote seems a little intellectual and theoretical to me - so-and-so said this, and so-and-so says that.

Sure, there have been plenty of great bhakti practicioners in the past, and all kinds of wise guys, but I already know all that, and at this point it kinda bores me.

The thing that is really interesting is the actual work actual people are doing nowadays - and not the living “experts” and the living famous types, they are the most boring of all.

The only thing that matters is what ordinary folks are doing and trying, because that's where the real hard work is getting done.

So, how's your bhakti going?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Interesting conversation…

Tyrone you said: “…because if you investigate the sociopaths and any kind of delinquet all of them have some kind of justification so that their consciounce wouldn't bother them.”

It is my understanding that a 'true' sociopath operates  without so-called “conscience”. (No remorse, no guilt, no inner sense of “right or wrong” etc.)  That is one of the interesting things about people who fall into this psychological category. They do not feel any need to justify what others would consider the most heinous acts, because they do not have the 'moral compass' or whatever one wants to call it, or a 'conscience' to assuage. They are not lying awake at night guilt-ridden or inventing justifications, they are too busy sleeping like a baby.

I'm talking about the authentic 'sociopath' (used to be called psychopath). Delinquents and others may, as you say, require excuses or other forms of self-medication to help them sleep at night.

~mu

PS: I looked up the term conscience at Wikipedia… here's what it says:

Conscience is a faculty or sense that leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral precepts, or which informs our moral judgment before performing such an action. Such feelings are not intellectually reached, though they may cause us to 'examine our conscience' and review those moral precepts, or perhaps resolve to avoid repeating the behaviour. Commonly used metaphors refer to the “voice of conscience” or “voice within”.]

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well, yes. i agree reading all my philosophy books just gradually started to tear away at my brain, even these days, im going to university and i refuse to take a philosophy class, because i think it would be useless. i love to go the library and see which new philosophy/religion books are out. my process is that i usually like to see the cover, read the back, and then flip randomly through the pages just glancing at the paragraphs. after a while it all seems like the same stuff eh? well, ya, because it is all the same. there's nothing really new, just different patterns of the same consciousness.

but as i explaining to you before, that being in sat sanga with my hare krishna friends, their love of god wore off on me in a signifcant way. i love this little book i have of ramana maharshi and his stories, small enough to fit in your back pocket and long enough to fill a good read throughout the weekend. one of the most striking things he spoke about after one of his stories is that , someone after hearing this kind of story, who doesnt feel that sense of awe or hair raising feeling after hearing these stories, must surely have a heart of stone, i dont know how they keep from melting!

you have asked me again for my bhakti. its quite simple: my bhakti is you. whe else would i be talking to you. truly if you were some ignoramus that just wanted to hurt others and hurt themselves you would be somewhere else not here. the main thing my guru taught me about religion is the ones that focus on limitations rather than freedom have very little use. to accept all and nothing , is where i find my freedom. thats my bhakti. if you mean how was my day, i could say i donated some blood yesterday and today i worked with people with special needs, one of the guys was pretty anxious today and we had to restrain him from running out of the house. but sorry for the misunderstanding because if you say how is your bhakti i would very rarely talk about my bhakti as pertaining to only this body and this personality which is writing to you right now.  even though beliefs can be dangerous, it still stays with me that everyone does everything for the sake of love and it all differs depending on the multitude of varying interpretations.


but last time i was rude, i shouldve also asked, bill, how is your bhakti, your devotion, that which lights up your life and brings you up from your downs?

and by the way its good that you have model of enlightenment resembles that of stoicism. theres some good heritage there. that zeno guy was inspired by the cynics, and the cynics got their ideas from their discipleship of socrates, who in turn was inspired by naked ones in india. so ya, i guess we're all connected hey? ! :)

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Plato was wrong about a lot of things. His Platonic Ideal in which anything, a chair, beauty, whatever, could not be perceived directly because we sit in a cave and can only see the shadows of Reality, not its Platonic Ideal. (I always picture “chair” and “beauty” hanging out in the Cosmos with a tag that says “Ideal”).

I love what you say about “spiritual fascism”. And it's not just what we love/hate about ourselves but also about others.

As for animals, we are animals. Just with larger brain capacity. Interestingly enough, there are insects that have far more advanced systems of communication. Bees tell each other where the pollen is by triangulating the sun, the flower, the hive, and then dance that information to each other.

What hubris we human have, thinking we are the world's guardians. Mother Nature laughs at her latest offspring. Making mistakes is EXACTLY what evolution is. What works survives, what doesn't dies off.

I'm reminded of Prometheus, doomed to eternal pain by Zeus, for having discovered the technology of fire. We build bombs, we will suffer. We build machines and think we have dominion over the planet. Harumph!

It's difficult to work together, because we are not a world community, but groups divided by history, ethnicity, language, territoriality, and the genetic disposition to want our personal DNA to thrive at the expense of somebody else's DNA. Lots of male animals kill the offspring of other males so that their DNA will survive.

Isn't that called war?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

edited to add (this post didn't end up where I expected ut to go - it was just a correction of a typo in a post made last week…) 

So what genuine traditional word world you use for your model of enlightenment?

correction:

So what genuine traditional word would you use for your model of enlightenment?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and means nothing, really.

You are so brave to write that on Zaadz. And of course, I agree. One man's Enlightenment is another man's boredom.

As for the truly great Masters, they don't want or expect deification. If anything, they hope to get rid of you to think for yourself.

I also believe that great teachers learn far more from their students than the students do from the teacher.

My model of enlightenment is being a busy bee, hopping from flower to flower of the huge garden of religion/philosophy/science/mysticism, finding the juiciest pollen and fertilizing my mind with it.

Om Tat Sat……………THIS IS IT!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

…brave to write that on Zaadz

Yeah, that's got some truth to it - but ordinarily I would only be so honest inside the “magic circle” of this pod, here on zaadz, so it ain't that brave. ;-}

I know many people aren't interested in really examining “enlightenment”, and they have a lot invested in the emotional ideal of “enlightenment”, and it would be a failure of compassion to try to force them to look at it in different ways.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

ya, thats true mu, (hey that rhymes) . i mentioned that example of sociopaths in the attempt to bridge the gap between all groups of people. it is in my intent to explain things quite similar to plato's statement that 'no one knowingly commits evil, for if they were to be aware of what they were to be doing, then they would see it as natural to do the thing that is most harmonious with their existence'  plz dont quote me on that one, just some bad paraphrasing from my memory but i should it should be accurate in its essence. 

so yes, it certainly could be argued that these true sociopaths have no so called consciounces as defined by modern day psychological or wikipedia terms.  thankfully you provided the definition that you were basing your argument on top of. it says that this consciounce cant be intellectually reached.  with that i would have to concur, because as much as i want to i cant turn off my consciounce , well atleast not that easily.

but could it be reasonable to say that these true sociopaths have a subconscious? a memory? and active will that feeds off the former two. could that will itself be influences by this consciounce, which we cant measure directly. in those documentaries where they question the charged individuals with heinous acts, we measure there consciounce resonance or lack there of in terms of their answers.

all of that said, which is almost all useless rhetoric ( i admit it) is that these sociopaths do still indeed have thoughts, as far as we can tell, although most of their sociological capicity (thinking of what others might think of us) has been blocked off by chemicals in the brain which have been triggered by given circumstances in their past history. we can still measure their consciounce by the fact that they are still thinking. its not that their consciounce has completely disappeared like some kind of leisoning(process where you remove brain parts to prevent further damage) experiment gone wrong.

so , if this consciounce cant be intellectually reached, it certainly is something very difficult to determine, other than the occurance of thoughts, which is even more mysterious to the modern day brain scientists and the philosopher alike.

in conclusion, know thyself.

the hint to the problem is that all are self, and that the separation is an illusion.

take care you guys, have merry and wonderful chirstimas and holiday season, may you get what you need, share with others who you are, and all that mushy stuff.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Thanks Tyrone. Hope you had a good one too.

Know thyself is indeed good advice.

All the best,
~mu

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill…

What is your intention for participating with this pod? 

Your writings seem to imply an absolute knowingness and authority.  I'm sure you're a really great guy, and yet you come off like really coarse sandpaper.  So far (and I could've missed it), I haven't read anything from you that sounds like you're all that free or happy.  Are you? 

So again…what is your intention for participating with this pod?  What's in it for you?  And are you getting what you came for?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Very free. And very happy. So happy it's a little tough to talk sometimes.

What I'm saying is that almost everything humans think they know about enlightenment is bullshit.

The atmosphere surrounding enlightenment talk is also bullshit.

And everybody is looking in the wrong direction, at the wrong things.

I come off like sandpaper because I'm saying what everyone believes is bullshit. Naturally this offends. I knew that when I started.

I'm participating because I care deeply about the topic, having devoted my life to the study of enlightenment.

It's far too early to tell if I can or will accomplish my intentions with this project. But at the very least, I hope not to add to the bullshit. And to raise questions that will be considered by other people who truly love the question of enlightenment.

Asking the right questions is what it's all about.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

ya i agree, theres a lot of BS in this stuff, but i think when we act with our best and most sincere intentions, even if we goof up or something stupid, somehow things keep rolling on nevertheless.  like on friday morning, one of the residents i work for, had diarrea, and so we had to shower him before he went to work. as he was walking to the shower, i went to grab his shampoo and forgot that the floor was still slippery. so even though he was holding on to his chair, he slipped right off his feet onto his back. omg, i checked his upper back and neck to see if he was ok, thankfully, nothing serious got damaged, but reminded me to be way more conscious of what i was doing.  i felt pretty ashamed, but thankfully god was looking after him better than i was. after that i got him showered and ready for work, ironically after he came back in the afternoon, they said he had a really good day and was in a great mood.

by the way, adyashanti admitted the same thing about BS . when he first started teaching he was invited to 'spiritual dinners' with other teachers and he couldn't stand what he said to be that 'spritual persona bull shit' and that once he stepped outside, a breath of fresh air was all it took to forget all that crap.

anyways, take care guys, happy a great new year's , and drive safe.

tyrone

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I want to come back to the question of my practices of bhakti, Tyrone, and the question of the love meme in enlightenment systems, but it's such a big topic that it almost seems to deserve a thread to itself.

But I thought a wiki would be appropriate, so we have a shared sense of what this word “bhakti” means.

This is how most people would think of it, largely because of the influence of the Gita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti

But, my use of the word is slightly more technical, as a field of Yogic discipline, one of the four main types of yoga.

—
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti_yoga

Bhakti yoga is a term within Hinduism which denotes the spiritual practice of fostering of loving devotion to God, called bhakti. Traditionally there are nine forms of bhakti-yoga. Bhakti yoga is generally considered the easiest of the four general paths to liberation, or moksha (the others being Karma, Raja and Jnana Yoga), and especially so within the current age of Kali yuga (according to the Hindu cycle of time). In scriptures such as the Bhagavata Purana, bhakti is described as a perfectional stage in itself which surpasses even moksha as a level of spiritual realisation. Hindu movements in which bhakti yoga is the main practice are called bhakti movements.
—

Like I said, bhakti should probably be discussed in a thread by itself.

It's interesting to note that bhakti is often difficult to distinguish from religion.

One of the practices that I think works well for modern westerners is _serial religion_, practicing the planets different main types of religion one after the other. If you do it right, it “unwinds” a person from religion, ironically by practicing religion. A lot of my earlier bhakti was in that form, an exploration of the planet's religions, trying to learn the lesson of each religious idea.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Dear Bill and all,

“One of the practices that I think works well for modern westerners is
_serial religion_, practicing the planets different main types of
religion one after the other. If you do it right, it “unwinds” a person
from religion, ironically by practicing religion. A lot of my earlier
bhakti was in that form, an exploration of the planet's religions,
trying to learn the lesson of each religious idea.”

I think this is a very insightful comment and theory.

I found this to be true in my life and 'practice' as well.

I started at the age of eight (the serial religion part) after being very ill for the first seven years of my life. I experienced very high fevers much of the time and was not expected to live. When I finally rose' out of the delirium of those early years, I began a quest. My quest began like most; I was looking for answers to things like suffering, life/death, infinity/Creator…the existential dilemma. Religion was the obvious starting place for me venthough I did not come froma so-called religious family. I started with Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Science Church, and the roller coaster ride took off from there. The story is too long and complex to recount here, but from where I am today (the 'unwound' part?) I find it impossible to put into words. I have tried some over the years, but since I usually fail to be able to communicate it, I usually remain silent. I can be overwhelming - that's a good thing I guess. But, I still enjoy reading and listening to others talk about their practices and insights. And there is a total acceptance of 'other' in that regard.

Maybe, the unwinding and subsequent occasional re-winding process is in keeping with the constant flow and movement of everything else? Maybe you will comment on your thoughts about the process a little bit more.  Have you found that once unwound the  goals (or non-goal) is to remain unwound to any particular philosophy or institutionalized school of thought etc?

mu

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, my experience has been that every religion you embrace leaves a kind of permanent impression on the mind (and the body). And certain religions, or more accurately the religions you practice at certain stages of life, influence you much more strongly than others.

As an example, your childhood religion affects you the strongest, and religions practiced during major passages of life, like physical maturity in the late teens and early twenties, social maturity at around thirty, and mid-life crisis religions in early forties, will “burn” themselves into the structure of your ego, and the most commonly repeated thoughts of your mind, the strongest.

Or at least that's how it happened with me, and that's what I've seen in others.

I think by practicing all the planet's great religions, a bunch of different things happen in the mind. Some of it looks a lot like “developing immunity” to me - similar to how our body adapts to disease - which might seem to be a funny way to talk about religion.

But a lot of it is just a radical change in the idea of the “Other”. Part of the way religions work socially is to create an Us versus Them worldview, to create a giant “mental herd” of similarly thinking people organized to defend against other mental herds who believe a different religion. The other herds are a dangerous “Other” - an other that needs to be competed with and conquered and converted.

But when you yourself understand the religion the other mental herd believes, it changes and expands the “Us versus Them” dynamic.

There's a lot more I could say, it's a complicated subject.

    

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

i think religion is cool. ive loved what its exposed me to and feel grateful that i can participate in the process of religion.

i have doubts about comparing religions to groceries in where we can consume them, because it was my experience of quite the contrary. religion consumed me. either or i guess. night and day type perceptions perhaps.

this us versus them is just nursery school religion. love is scary, its like jumping off the cliff and believing someone will catch you. theres no sense in that, and certainly it takes time to outgrow the utility of fear.

all these groups fight each other to resolve some sort of karma, feeling themselves as the body, so thats what they use to validate their beliefs in god. when others close up the books and stare up at the clouds and see them for what they are, the battles just seem like a force of nature.  its a nice view i guess, might as well share some tea. …and then back to the wheatfield.

peace n love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, the spirit of the practice isn't 'religion shopping', it's more along the lines of exploring the “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” of the religious impulse on this planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

Altho, it could look like religion shopping. It starts where it starts, that is, each individual is in a specific situation with regards to religion, and when I was suggesting the practice to people, I would say, “What attracts you? What religious ideas do you feel an affinity to? That's the place to start.”.

The goal is to have practiced at least one variation of the planet's great religious schools, which, at the risk of oversimplifying, we could name as shamanisms, polytheisms, monotheisms, ethicisms, a-theisms, and the magical schools (if you want to include them).

Another way of looking at it is to divide the planet up somewhat regionally - which leaves you with shamanisms (the whole planet), the major eastern schools, and the major western schools. The major eastern schools usually would be simplified into the vedic/hindu polytheisms, buddhist a-theisms and polytheisms, and the ethicism schools like confucianism and taoism. The Major western schools would be simplified to judaism, christianity, and islam, with the older magical schools still in existence but more suppressed than in the east.

Roughly 5 or 6 main streams of religion - easy enough to devote a certain number of years to each, and integrate within oneself a representation of the whole religious history of the planet.

—

Naturally, a person who is in the middle of any one particular religious school doesn't want to think about the meaning and the consequences of stopping that religion and starting another.

That's the nature of religion - it tries to dominate the mind in which it is running.

Thats why choosing to run another religion is such an effective practice

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

[This is a reply to Bill's post of Thursday - it seems confusing the way they are posted here]

Interesting theory. This is something (for me) that deserves more focused attention than I have at the moment. (Studying for a Thanatology final and beginning a new  Counseling class.)

I want to come back and digest these posts later when my head is not so full of semi-irrelevant facts and figures. 

~mu

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

so just to be clear, Bill, by organising all these religions, is that your bhakti(devotion) per se? if anything i was just wondering what was the meaning behind all of it or a purpose for it.

take care as always

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Oh no, the devotion is, well, the “devotion” - it's a certain way of holding the mind and the body, the yearning and calling and reaching and opening for the divine, the thousand forms of prayer, the rites of invocation and puja, or whatever form the devotion happens to take.

But, repeating and integrating the history of devotion on the planet is a type of meta-bhakti. It frees, or tends to free, the practicioner from the 'veil of culture'.

Suppose a person wanted to do Patanjali's sutras, and take the easier path, and therefore starts to do devotions to Ishvara, the personal god who aids yogi's attain realization.

Anybody who's done this soon realizes it can be a very big aid in practicing raja yoga. “Prayer” to Ishvara is one of the quickest ways to start the successful practice of king yoga.

But is Ishvara really a personal god? Is Krishna really a personal god? Is Allah really a personal god? Is Adonai really a personal god?

These are all cultural masks - “the veil of culture” - painted over an inner experience which we call by the names of god.

But you can't know that, for certain, if you stay in one religion all your life. Your devotion might be perfect, but, ultimately, you are still telling yourself a cultural and regional story. You are still trapped in history. Your love might redeem you, might fill you with bliss untill death, but that isn't moksha.

So, serial planetary religion is a meta-bhakti, a freedom technique.

If you don't want moksha, there's no reason to do it. Regional bhakti by itself is awefully damn sweet, and who knows, maybe moksha is over-rated.

—

I'm expecting to be offline for the next few days…

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi everyone. I am new to the discussion, but Bill's previous post prompted a comment and a question. One of the great dilemmas, it seems to me, is how to express devotion without falling into the trap of reinforcing a separate “self” that does not exist. So if I pray about what I want, enlightenment or whatever, I am setting up an “I” that wants something.

So the question is how to express the burning and yearning with out leaving awareness to produce a “self” that wants something?

So what is this certain way of holding the mind and body while reaching for the divine?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

hey mark, hope you're doing well. and thanks bill for your response, it was pretty interesting to read.

on devotion, the important thing is not me, but the aspect of devotion, so if i fear falling into the trap, then my devotion is more about myself then let's say the higher power which was originally intended.

devotion, like chanting and meditation can be described psychologically where the neurons of our thoughts fire in a specific way for a long enough time, that the chemicals in our brain run out of the specific energy for that point of attention. that gap of thoughts, can reveal the emptyness of the mind. and with that no concepts of enlightenment or suffering are present.
just resting in the heart. take care guys. peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well Mark, I think that by the time a person has really absorbed and experienced and reorganized their psyche with the anatman (no-self) realizations, bhakti as devotion isn't going to be felt to be that attractive and important.

You can still do it, but it would be as something more like an artform, than as a devotion in the original sense of the idea.

In my case it evolved into something like an ecstatic appreciation of the universe as a baseline ground of being. God is gone, but here the body still seems to be, on the surface of this amazingly pretty planet, moving thru an amazingly pretty universe, or at least appearing to do so.

The ecstasy one used to get from god, now comes from dirt and air and gravity and photons. Everywhere you look it's nothing but flashing bliss. Even as the body ages and approaches death everything is just so freakin' beautiful. ;-}

But, ya know, if you personally still want to play with bhakti, even if you've got anatman, why not? Sometimes one just wants to do art for art's sake. God doesn't mind the fact that he or she doesn't exist. In fact, I often suspect god is quite amused by his or her own non-existence. At least, that's what god has been known to say, when you talk to him or her.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

It reminds me of an old post of mine in my blog: http://hermanobrother.zaadz.com/blog/2006/9/bs

Which simply states that all enlightenment talk, integral talk, integral theories, zen talk, religion talk, theology talk… the whole thing that's discussed all around here is all bullshit.

I came to the same conclusion.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I tend towards a pretty severe view of enlightenment, but I'm a little less severe than that.

I figure all the talk and material is only about 98.5% crap.

Actually, the scale slides a bit.

I'd like to think I have good days where what I say about enlightenment is only about 97% crap.

But, naturally, everyone has a rosy picture of themselves.
 
And I'm just another big-brained animal on the surface of this very nice planet.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill…

What is your intention for participating with this pod? 

I hope you feel free to return and continue to critique me, Scott.

I very much appreciated your critique.

I also hope this post will show up correctly in the layout of this thread.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I also hope this post will show up correctly in the layout of this thread.

But it did not. Sometimes the way this software chooses to display posts is quite odd. One clicks on reply to post and it adds the reply to the end of the thread instead.

So it goes.

I think I'll test a 'reply to thread' from the same location.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

A test for Scott's very much appreciated observations…

Where will this post? At the end of the thread, or just under the original post?

I tried a reply to post before, it ended up at the end of the thread.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well i guess practice makes perfect.

have a great week.

namasthe

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Wisdom can be better than Enlightenment if you see it like this:
(at least I see it like this)

If you're wise, you will know that it's ok not be enlightened. You do not cling to whether you're enlightened or not. You are ok with how things are.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill and All.  It's been about a year since I have posted on this pod.  I had some weird ideas and I attached to them.  Oh well.  Hermano- your brief reparte on this thread as of recent, seems to be a bit of an Occam's Razor to what Bill was saying about most enlightenment talk being bullshit.  I could be wrong.  Don't care.  I too love the topic of enlightenment dearly as well as wisdom.  That is why I shut my mouth for a year.  I may be making a mistake here.  I could be wrong.  Don't care.  So Bill, is my assessment slightly accurate that Hermano's last statement is essentially your BS meter or Occam's Razor in a Spiritual Sense?  What methodology do you use to sift through the BS?  Or is there none other than just devoting one's self to specific mental and spiritual vehicles for years at a time?  I do like what you said Bill, about being stuck in religious cultural/regionalism and that by praciticing the world's serial religions is a sort of Meta-Bhakti.  This too could maybe be your BS meter?  I believe I asked that question already in a different format.  I could be wrong.  Don't care.  I may post again in another year when I read commentary and learn some more.  Thanks!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Erik, wow, a year comes and goes. Time, it's amazing stuff.

The stuff you are talking about is so interesting it deserves a thread all to itself. Bullshit metering, and how to seperate the best stuff from all the endless piles of cultural material that it is mixed with.

What methodology do you use to sift through the BS?  Or is there none other than just devoting one's self to specific mental and spiritual vehicles for years at a time?

Time and experience are definitely a huge factor. But, it's not the only factor. I figure we've all seen examples of persons who have a lot of time under their belt, but they seem just as fixated on and trapped within a “truth” as anybody else. So, it's not just time that does the trick.

I do think one of the most important thing that any practicioner (that's my word for a person who really works hard at “this stuff”, based on the idea of the sadhu, which means “one who does practices”) can do is to force themselves to master multiple systems, to make sure that they have the ability to look at this stuff from several perspectives and levels.

Which is part of what I was talking about with the meta-bhakti of practicing devotions from different religions and places on this planet.

When you can think in multiple systems, you have a mind that is much better able to see the details and find the best stuff.

Referring back to bhakti, then, “faith” stops being a faith in (insert name of diety here), and becomes something harder, a faith in the structure of reality and the universe itself, a faith in oneself. Then faith becomes invisible.

Personally, probably my favorite technique for BS detection involves what I call “stories”. Once you understand it's all stories, it becomes pretty easy to tell what is just something that somebody heard somewhere, and what is real, hard, and unique actual experience.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hello again Bill

     Thanks for the answer.  I suspect that is about as specific an answer one can expect with such an esoteric topic.  I too find myself bored with the pithy “wisdoms” touted and paraded as new when they are just the same old koans and kong ans wearing different clothing.  Westerners really seem to like to do this.  The only one who seems to gather a bit of my interest is the sangha work being done by Andrew Cohen (What Is Enlightenment) by way of claiming that his more advanced student practitioners seem to have been experiencing another “state” in consciousness with the hopeful, I guess continued holding on to this said state long enough to make it perhaps a stage or rung in the ladder of never-ending consciousness.  Hmmm.  I do not know if I give this much creedance or if it really matters much for all intents and purposes.  Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber seem to think that all of this sitting around being present business is just fine, now let's do something with it to move forward.  This does not sound new to me.  Zen, I think, covers this already.  Before enlightenment, whatever that is, chop the wood - carry the water.  After enlightenment, the same.  Basically just bringing present awareness to all activity without doing the present moment a disservice by wondering off to non-existant time frames by identifying with thoughts.  Again.  I may be wrong.  Don't care.  Seems needlessly wordy and egoically complicated.  Everyone's OK anyway, with or without “enlightenment”.  I think that is probably more important to convey to others than the “attainment” of enlightenment itself.  You are OK.  Now go have a good time and quit worrying about needless bullshit.  A bit idealistic?  Probably.  Ehh.  No big deal.  Works for me.  Everything is beautiful and I am just another speck of consciousness greatful to be alive to look at it and experience it.  Whether it's me or not, really makes no difference and does not change it one iota.  Your thoughts?  I bet I can guess.

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Erik, I can get way more specific, but it would be a waste of both of our times if I just “said” important things to you.

You have to steal it from me. You have to trap me in the Game of Truth.

I've laid down the clues, I'm trying to make it easy for you to trap me.

This is part of the reason that there is so much bullshit. People haven't realized, and they can't see, that truth and wisdom and this thing that we often call “enlightenment” can't be given and can't be taught and can't be discussed.

It can only be taken.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

So far, I haven't heard a single new thing from Andy Cohen or his students.

It all sounds like the same old same old to me. I'm constantly scanning the information flows coming from folks like Andy and all the others looking for the unique and unmistakeable traces of new direct knowledge and experience, not something heard somewhere or read somewhere, but something that comes from an individual human slamming into the real.

Now, I'm not in the inner circles of the Andy work, and I know how incredibly hard it is to speak and write the truth about this stuff we call “enlightenment”. So, maybe there is something delicious there that just hasn't reached my mind.

That would be wonderful, if it was true. There is nothing sweeter than the deadly poison of something true and real.
  

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hello Bill-

     So I will cut to the chase.  Is your faith in yourself the “truth” you are trapped in?  Is there such a thing as Cosmic egocentrism?  If beyond knowing is of course the realization that All is YOU and YOU are All, is there still a scrap of ego left to get puffed up over that?  Maybe this is a trait unique to the human experience.  So you “take” the realization that YOUR expansiveness emcompasses All and in that non-conceptual concept(?) perhaps there is a little arrogance in the comforting thought beyond thought, that YOU are always OK and beyond death or life for that matter.  Almost smug maybe?  I'm probably reading way too much into this and am guilty of projecting my own flaws onto you.  I enjoy them.  They bother me not.  Please do not make it easy on me.  I enjoy it best when the game is afoot.  Squirming and kicking is when I am really “feeling” something.  Wonderful.  The devil you say.  The demons will play…

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

     Of course I have realized that in classic Zen fashion (my truth I am stuck in), by responding to you I opened my mouth.  30 strikes from your bamboo staff.  Yet if I close my mouth, I am damned to Hell.  I love these kong ans!  >Whack!<

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

by responding to you I opened my mouth.

Yeah, well, it's inherent to the situation.

Look at it from my point of view. In order to say anything real to you, I also have to open my mouth.

I make a set of choices, hoping that my real communication can get thru the necessary mechanisms of the ego - for only the ego can speak.

But, there's no guarantee that what I'm really trying to say can get thru. There are dozens of ways it can be blocked, by my ego-structure, by your ego-structure, and by the many cultural filters between you and I.

That's partly why I said the good stuff can't be given, it can only be taken.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

So I will cut to the chase.  Is your faith in yourself the “truth” you are trapped in? 

Well, how would you test for that?

Do I speak like I know because I know, or because I don't know?

How would you test me? You _should_ be suspicious. You _should_ be wary.

This is what we were talking about - bullshit detetction.

Ahhh, it's a bit of a moot point. What you appear to me to be interpreting as ego (as I interpret what you've just written), I intended as the open conversation between practicioners. Simply saying to you how I see things.

I didn't fully follow your discussion about ego, but I noticed you mention “and beyond death”.

My take on that is that none of us are beyond death. It comes swiftly.

Oh, I figure I should answer your original question above. Nah, that's not my trap. ;-}

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Bill

     Oh yes.  My response was definitely egoic.  I didn't even try to hide it.  The whole damn thing was filled with hubris and self inflation.  Pedestal high in it's discertation wielded with gloating pomp and arrogance.   I read too much.  I listen too little.  My ego greatly appreciates the compliment of acknowledging my person as a fellow and equal practitioner.  'What a hoot!  Ehh.  Getting needlessly off topic.  Naah, I was trying to throw in a sorry attempt at trying to “trap” you with empty rhetoric when in fact all I think I did was insult both our intelligences.  So I will now set the pace of my quest with another query concerning your proclamation of enlightenment.  You say you “got” enlightenment as you have professed on your profile.  Words are cheap.  Define for me what entails enlightenment to you and your answer will dictate the direction of my questioning accordingly as you will of course understand.  This is not a trust or faith based question.  I have no reason to doubt your claim.  It is just a question.  What is enlightenment to YOU?  This is fun isn't it?

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

all I think I did was insult both our intelligences.

The difference bertween an amateur and a professional is not that the professional doesn't make mistakes - it's that he knows how to fix it when he does. You jumped out of your own trap before it closed. I understand what that means. ;-}

And then you get serious and ask the most important real question anybody can ask in this situation.

Which is, “Just what, exactly, do you mean by “enlightenment”?

This is one of the tests, one of the better tests.

Altho, as a test, it has certain drawbacks. The biggest drawback being, suppose the enlightened human you were testing faked the answer by simply repeating the pre-existing storylines of enlightenment to you? How would you tell if you are just being told things that “everybody knows”, stuff from the books, or being told something real about enlightenment?

Suppose somebody who wasn't enlightened, but mistakenly thought he was, was asked that question, and he repeated all the stuff he's read or heard, and it all sounded pretty much like what “everybody knows”.

How would you tell wether it was real enlightenment, or just stories from old books, that sounded good?

—

Anyway, I love this test. and I'm ready to talk. But, to make sure we are on the same page as we start out, I want to ask you two questions first.

1. Where does the word “enlightenment”, as we use it in this case, come from?

2. What was the meaning of the original words for enlightenment? 

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hello Bill-

     I will start by answering question number one.  These maybe “innaccurate” answers but I “think” you are looking for something more than common ground here. So I will combine the elements of what I “know” of the word enlightenment with what I feel in the totallity of my answers.

1)  In my best combined study and guess, the word enlightenment in the context we are using for this discussion has it's roots in Animistic/Vedic India and Nepal.  I would have to guess it was popularized by the Mendicants and Renunciates of pre-Siddhartha times.  Renouncing the world and practicing austerities was said to be the most probable path toward enlightenment before Siddhartha's discovery of the Middle Way and the Eight Fold Path.

2)  I will use simplicity in this answer:  An awakened state.  Free of suffering and wanting (desire).  A transcending beyond conceptual realities into Nirvana/Nibbana.


     I base my own persuit of awakening on the four laws discovered by Shakyamuni Buddha.  You already know them, but for the sake of the continuity of this discussion and thread, I will list them for other's reference. They are:

1)  All compound things are illusory

2)  All emotions are pain

3)  All things have no inherent existance

4)  Nirvana (enlightenment) is beyond concepts

     To answer your question previous to the last two:

“How would you test for enlightenment in another?”

     This is a bit of a sticky wicket here.  There is no test.  Blind faith.  Letting go.  Aha!!  Taking the enlightenment myself and throwing all verbal bullshit aside.  No signs or words or acts are true testimony to a persons enlightened state.  As such they are simply that: acts!  There is no map to what one already is.  There is no becoming what one already is.  Both ideas are synonymous and moot.  I may be wrong.  I don't care.  Fun!  I claim no awakening myself, nor do I profess to be a teacher of it either.  I am content without reason.  I am grateful moment to moment.  I am a warrior of stillness.  I do know that I do not know and that is exactly right in all the situations I have experienced thus far.  I dwell in the wonderfully ordinary and this I suspect is an awakening of sorts.  I do not seek.  I look for no confirmation, but if there is more to it, it would certainly be hoot to experience, no?!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Ha ha ha ha ha! Sorry dude, totally wrong. I mean, like, really, totally wrong.

If you stop and think about it, you should be able to figure out what I mean.

Think about it. The word - enlightenment. Where did it come from?

And what did the original words for enlightenment mean?

What was the original model of enlightenment?

—

I didn't really ask “How do you test for enlightenment in another”? That's way more advanced.

I asked, how do you tell stories that someone might have memorized,  from something that might be real enlightenment?

Even if it's a story you really like, it might just have been memorized.

—

One thing I can say - if you think those mahayana precepts really describe enlightenment, then whatever it is I got ain't enlightenment. Altho nirvana really is beyond concepts.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

This *is* getting juicy now :)  Ha ha ha…

I hesitated before jumping in, inside of an idea that this was a private dokusan or something, and then laughed realizing this was a very public thread….love it….

The word enlightenment came from………MIND

The original words for enlightenment mean….NOTHING

YOU/I…..can't test for enlightenment in another…tho there does seem to be some sort of noticing or recognizing, but putting attention on describing that recognition seems to dissolve the discriber

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Scott, welcome back! ;-}

it's juicy!

So a word like “enlightenment” comes from - MIND - fully formed, all at once, unspoken by humans, unhistorical, pure, complete, with no beginning and no end?

And the sanskrit word “bodh” means - “nothing”?

Sure you can test for enlightenment in another. The thing is, you can't get an absolute yes or no answer, because enlightenment, being a human phenomenon, isn't an absolute.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Bill and Scott-

     Well, I would love to respond with, “yeah, what Scott said.”  But that would be too obvious.  Of course everything comes from mind until mind is no more.  Then what?  Zilch.  Black.  Nada.  Zip.  That realm of deep dreamless sleep.  Forever.  Nothing going on at all.  Death.  Just rattling off there.  I took the questions from a literal sense.  My bad or good.  Don't care.  It is what it is.  Still content.  Still fun.  You got me Bill.  Or YOU got YOU.  How esoteric do we take this?  Does it matter?  It seems meaningless.  I think my ego's perception is nihilistic at heart.  It's hard to feel anything for anything except my wife and kids.  I have a deep “Mother Hen” protective love over them but everthing else is just a “movie” to me.  It can burn in the projector at anytime and I could care less.  Once a cop, always a cop.  I don't attach well to things because I know that they are just going to fade, die, blow away, whatever.  So I don't allow myself to get too emotionally involved with stuff that doesn't really seem to matter.  Yet I am still content.  Not always happy, but a deep seeded, underlying contentment knowing that I'm OK no matter what I “think” or “feel”.  Because both of those concepts aren't real.  There is no personality in deep dreamless sleep.  Blaaaaah.  Here I go off topic again.  I don't think that my game is up to snuff to gleen from you Bill.  I think I get what you are saying then I don't.  My problem is I don't care.  But this is fun!  Weird?

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill-

     I got so wrapped up in my crap there, I forgot to say some other things that I think are more relevant and topic oriented.  So if mind invented enlightenment, and the Buddhist precepts are BS, then what is it that you have attained or “taken”?  I still don't seem to get an answer there.  What is enlightenment to you?  I ain't gonna answer it for you.  YOU tell me.  I don't do vague.  Remember, I am an Ex-cop turned Chief of Security for a Government Building.  I like interrogation.  It's fun.  One room.  Two chairs.  A table.  A one way window and bad lighting and I do well with no sleep.  Answer?  I am probably too far gone and cynical for this.  Who knows?

Bathe in Light,(<—This is sincere and no BS)

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I'm pulling Scott's leg, Erik. Mind is not where the word enlightenment came from, altho, it was invented by human minds. And the original words for enlightenment do not mean nothing, they mean something very specific.

The point I'm trying to get over with these questions has to do with _language and stories_. You and I, as we are now, can only pretend to talk about enlightenment, because we are working with radically different usages of language and stories.

If you'll recall, I've been mentioning stories from the beginning of this conversation.

To go back to the old languages, you need to understand stories to understand sankharas (if you prefer the pali) or samskaras. (Knowledge of biology helps too.)

If I say certain words to you, I can be 99% certain that you don't understand them in the same sense that I do. I can tell you what I mean by enlightenment, but, if I tell you, yet I know you don't understand the words the way I do, have I really told you anything?

If I was ignorant of the importance of words, I would just start telling you stories. And you would either like the stories or dislike the stories, but you would only be reacting to the stories and the storyteller, and you would end up with no real idea of what I mean by “enlightenment”.

From my point of view, that would be the same thing as lying to you.

Here, let me give you one of my most simple formulas for what enlightenment means.

When a person has developed the ability to not lie to himself, the person can enter nirvana, and he (or she) is enlightened. It's not important if he lies to others, and he doesn't have to not lie to himself every minute of every day. But he must be able to not lie to himself at will.

This is only one description/stream pointing to enlightenment, there are others that are just as important. Enlightenment isn't simple.

And dude, you tend to keep putting words in my mouth. I never said that the “Buddhist precepts are BS”.

I love old Gotama. He was brilliant. Well, if he existed. As a story, he was a brilliant character.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

The Buddha is my kind of guy.

As for which is better, I vote for wisdom…..you're already enlightened, whether you know it or not.

Wisdom takes years of experience, the vicissitudes of life, endless dealings with what the Buddha called suffering.

Ah, if only I were wise 40 years ago to what I've grown in wisdom now.

Peace.

Sally

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

As for which is better, I vote for wisdom…..you're already enlightened, whether you know it or not.

Hi Sally! I think that's an excellent answer.

But, the way I formulated the question, it is kind of a trick question. Because it's contextual, and the answer to the question depends on the context of the person.

And the context that's important about that question is, when does the human involved expect to die?

If you don't expect to die for many years. wisdom is far better.

But if you expect to be dying relatively soon, enlightenment might be better. Wisdom is still good, tho. That's one of those 6 of one, half a dozen of the other deals. ;-}

One of the stories about enlightenment that is most common, especially since mahayana times, is that everybody is already enlightened. And my personal experience has led me to conclude that this story is very close to being “true”, but it's not quite accurate.

So, my current best story about that goes like this. Everybody probably already has what they need to enter enlightenment at any moment, and every person probably experiences brief moments of enlightenment, but they don't know it. Not knowing it is pretty much the same as not being enlightened. But, enlightenment is very close, all the time.

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that it's a blessing that most people don't enter enlightenment any sooner than is necessary. ;-} 

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill:

Ole buddy, let me turn the question around a little. What is better for others (if in fact there are others) your wisdom or your enlightenment?

For enlightenment to have any value it must be lived. That defines wisdom in my book. There are too many “enlightened” who even though they can witness like crazy, still don't handle their issues ie their ego patterns. So no one really enjoys or benefits from the fact that they are enlightened.

So the Self is not enhanced.


Mark

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Mark! ;-}

Wisdom is better for others, of course. Enlightenment is, as far as I can tell now, the most profoundly individualistic, even selfish, of all human experiences and conditions.

Paradoxically. Enlightenment means the end of individuality, but at the same time is the most individual of experiences. It's crazy.

For enlightenment to have any value it must be lived. That defines wisdom in my book. There are too many “enlightened” who even though they can witness like crazy, still don't handle their issues ie their ego patterns. So no one really enjoys or benefits from the fact that they are enlightened.

Now, you are pointing right at the issue which has been the single most important issue for me personally.

“Enlightenment” without the right set of skills - essentially, without the right kind of properly trained and developed ego, especially “enligtenment” at too young of an age, is extremely likely to collapse into a kind of sociopathic insanity.

Now, I'm not suggesting the same kind of delusional, disfunctional insanity that we connect with normal schizophrenia. I'm talking about a special kind of collapsed state that occurs when you have had the “enlightenment” effects start in the body and mind, but you can't handle the personal implications.

This is actually a really advanced topic, and very controversial, and hard to discuss. Because it strikes right at the heart of the enlightenment marketplace.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill:

There is a mythos that once enlightenment has occurred that personal development is over. It makes personal development incredibly easy, but it cannot be ignored.

I know the use of the term personal development in a weird sense here, but I think you know what I mean. After enlightenment you still tie your shoes and you still give your wife the finger, but you have to know the difference between the two.

You can't act out and say, “well I am detatched.”


Mark

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

After enlightenment you still tie your shoes and you still give your wife the finger, but you have to know the difference between the two.

I love that way of thinking about enlightenment. You do not stop doing stuff, or being silly, or even having temporary moments of telling people they annoy you, just because you happen to be enlightened.

Being enlightened ain't all that. I love being non-reverential and using humor about spirituality.

P.S. Never believe anything you read. Especially my stuff.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Nirvans does not mean enlightenmet it means [cessation]


read this
http://pods.zaadz.com/truth_enlightenment_self_enquiry_self_realisation/discussions/view/153522

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill-

     I see your point and I understand with a modicum of clarity.  If I said I completely understood, that would not be true and this conversation would not be happening as I would probably be bored stiff with it being in some kind of “what's the point?” mindset/paradigm.  Most sorry for the bad habit of putting words in your mouth.  Again, I think too much.  Read too much into things.  It is one of my many weaknesses and someday I will figure out how to turn them into strengths instead of relying on my “paranoid super cop” persona that I have to wear at work everyday.  It's difficult at times to remember that I am wearing a mask when I come home and play super cop to the family.  They call my bullshit of course and reality sets in.  Enough unimportant off-topic crap.  Back to the conversation.  Yes.  We both are speaking English, but the words are most likely intrinsically different between us in many cases.  It would be tedious to sit and define each pertinent word in every sentence so as to speak from the same voice.  This helps me appreciate your point made earlier about alot of teaching being bullshit.  If I misquoted you there, I apologize.  I am just trying to remember the overall message.  And I don't feel like goddamn going over the last 50-60 posts to find the exact phrase.  Pointless.  Sorry.  I can be an ornery bastard and thus I might have alittle difficulty learning.  I grew up in an invironment where anger was not only my strength, it was my friend.  It lingers a bit.  I accept it.  Baah!  But this is still fun.  As far as enlightenment is concerned, as much as it fascinates me, I am not fully convinced that it exists.  I believe as long as I have life coursing through my veins that there is energy relating to other energy units on this planet at a human level of understanding.  There is not one iota of a shred of evidence that proves that anything of me exists beyond “lights out” and the final mental synapse has fired.  I think most belief systems originated out of a fear of death.  I am a human.  A grain of insignificant sand on the cosmic beach.  I make a little impact for awhile when I am alive and carry on in memories of loved ones until the last is forgotten.  Poof.  Wormdirt.  I think alot of this Universal Consciousness sometimes is wishful thinking and human arrogance.  We only have other human experiences to bounce off of and juxtapose and nobody knows the “punchline” until they are dead.  Until then, it is all supposition without a single hard shred of evidential proof of any of it.  Stories.  Like you said.  Stories.  We made them up when we asked “why?” and “who am I?”.  It's living energy playing with living energy and the energy is always there.  Am I conscious of it after death?  Perhaps.  But there is no one living who can prove it.  It's all Brain/Synapse affected psycho babble.  All experience of is of the brain and completely mental.  Any neurosurgeon worth his weight in gold can make you have a religious/spiritual experience with a poke of a needle.  He can seem like a tourrets inflicted mental case or a drooling vegetable with just a poke of a needle and you could not stop him!  Chemically altered experiences in our own minds.  I want to believe in a going on of some sort.  I would love nothing more than the thought of expanding to my fullest potential nothingness and be conscious of it after the body dies.  Logic says a very succinct and emphatic “no”.  I am OK with that.  I appreciate the “now” better with that understanding.  Sorry about the long goddamn response here.  Geezo what a friggin' blabber mouth!

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

But there is no one living who can prove it.  It's all Brain/Synapse affected psycho babble.  All experience of is of the brain and completely mental.

Now, see, Erik, this is why I figured I could be pretty straight with you. I observed your writings, and while you got your problems, like we all do, you weren't acting like an innocent lost in the stories.

I figure you've developed a taste for the poisons of the real things, and you are suspicious, not credulous. Both of those abilities are really valuable for exploring this stuff.

But you are wrong about the “completely mental” part - you are making a basic error. So here's a question for you - what's the basic error to which I'm referring? 

—

Now, lets go back a few steps, to continue this process of synchronizing our language sets, and cross-referencing our stories.

You gave me two answers to the first two questions. Your first answer wasn't entirely off, you just made an assumption.

I asked, where did the word “enlightenment” come from?

The answer, of course, is that it came from europe. The origins of the idea might be said to go back to the mediterranean basin, but that specific form comes from the renaissance. It's kind of a complementary idea to sainthood - but, if you study it's origins, it's also kind of an anti-christian, anti-church term that was embraced by an emerging class of intellectuals.

Now, when we started translating eastern texts, we used the word “enlightenment” to translate about a half dozen different highly technical words in sanskrit, pali, and a few other languages. In the original writings and stories, those words meant ideas that were very specific. But, we westerners lumped tham all together, and called them all - “enlightenment”.

Do you see what kind of problem that created for us?

So, your first answer, about the origins of certain ideas and stories in ancient india and asia, while it was accurate about the origins of the ideas, was totally wrong about the origins of the word “enlightenment”.

Now, for the second question, a good accurate answer would have been, “Which words? Specify a word, and I'll tell you what it means.”.

So, here are some words - moksha, siddha, samadhi, bodhi, nibbana, nirvana. What were the different models of enlightenment described by these words? And how do they relate to each other?

Now, you might reasonably say to me, you are just playing word games, and if 'enlightenment” is real, it should be obvious and transcend words.

Ahhhh, if only that were the case. But words are completely inherent to enlightenment, the two are inextricably bound together.

—

Let me tell you a joke, that says something about words. Suppose you and I are walking around, and I turn to you suddenly and say, “Holy shit, the semborask is coming, get me the rondoblatz or we are both freekin' dead.”.

How do you keep us from dying?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

My definition of Wisdom is this: The correct application of knowledge

Enlightenment: To see reality as it is

I think Wisdom is an attribute of enlightenment.

Though anyone can use Wisdom, but anyone can't use enlightenment, but the enlightened.

You see people use wisdom to become enlightened. But the other proposition isn't the case.

One can't use enlightenment to become wise, because they are already wise.

By the existential condition of their enlightenment.

Though they can get wiser, and acquire more knowledge

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Zak!

Enlightenment: To see reality as it is

That's pretty close to principle of one of my working definitions. However, no living human can see reality as it is, so I would say something like “To be able to perceive and simulate without filters.”.

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it? ;-}

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Bill


Bill said: 

That's pretty close to principle of one of my working definitions. However, no living human can see reality as it is, so I would say something like “To be able to perceive and simulate without filters”.

Zak
Seeing reality as it is, is only in the context of these “filters” you talk about, otherwise we would see the basic building blocks of being, or non- being all the time since that is ultimate reality.

Enlightenment ultimately indeed is  relative, it's not an absolute reality, it is relative to unenlightenment, or samsara [delusion]

These filters you talk about produce “Samsara” [delusion] or veils, as the Sufis call them. They are produced by “negative energy that is produced by a mis- aligned energy configuration in the soul that humans have evolved to.

All metaphysical systems are attempting to rectify this mis-alignment.

When that happens “enlightenment” is one of the consequences of this.

Also immortality, happiness, peace, goodness etc.. suppose to be in the mix.



Remember “enlightenment” is but a science based on radiation, light, or ultimately energy and its relationship with us.

Read my post theory of enlightenment in another thread here. I explain two theories that are from two major traditions.

I use these as working theories. Not though being attached to them as any dogma

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

They are produced by “negative energy that is produced by a mis- aligned energy configuration in the soul that humans have evolved to.

Is that what they are produced by? You'll have a hard time demonstrating that.

 I explain two theories that are from two major traditions.

Yes, I enjoyed that, especially because buddhism and sufism were both major influences on my process and current models and thinking.

I had a bit of a hard time following your writing and trying to extract what I thought you thought were the critical points. I think working on the writing and the way you present the ideas could help. And, I felt you were a little too fixated on “religion and spirituality” as a source and model of answers and ideas, something you also tended to do in your post above. I guess that's an “occupational hazard” with this stuff.

I do think that training oneself in multiple systems is one of the things that can help an individual figure this stuff out, more than almost anything else they can do. Myself, I'm a big fan of trying to understand the systems of the planet as a whole, altho that's pretty daunting for the average practicioner. At least train yourself in two or three, is my suggestion.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Then what is our problem. Why are we so unenlightened. Why are we so prone to mass murder, rape, wars, crime, ignorance, suffering, disease,  mental illness, etc etc etc

Is it just our animal self?

Dont you think everything is based on energy, and how it flows, or doent flow?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Is it just our animal self?

That kinda gives animals a bad rap. ;-}

Actually, I think it is the human “self” that “causes” it. The human body-mind, driven by the whips of the genetic imperatives and DNA logic and computation.

Dont you think everything is based on energy, and how it flows, or doent flow?

I think humans can adjust their sensory simulations so that everything appears to be energy and energy flows - that doesn't mean that it actually IS energy and energy flows, only that it is a (probable) universal human experience to be able to perceive evertything as energy and energy flows.

Now, if you were to say to me, “Don't you think everything is an information flow?”, I would have answered, “Yes, within the limitations of our current minds, I think it's reasonable to say that everything could be said to be composed of information flows.”.

If you choose to add a subdefinition that “energy flows” can be thought of as “information flows”, then your statement becomes more demonstrable.

“Energy” is a complicated subtopic, that will have to be discussed at great length. You can invoke einstein and say everything is energy, but people usually mean “energy” talk in terms of something more like a spiritual energy.

Which is often, I think, an attempt to avoid the uncomfortable and very close reality of our being big-brained animals here on the surface of this planet.

I thought you might be displaying such discomfort with your comment about “animal self” above.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill I am trying to understand enlightenment by unenlightenment.


 

The animal rap was just a rhetorical question.

You still didn't deal with my question, WHY ARE WE SO MESSED UP, BIG BILL?

And if you dont think we are messed up, lets go to Africa, Palestine, Rwanda, the inner city Ghetto,Columbine, The Korean boy last month. must I go on?

You do get my point?


Energy includes all kinds of things from chemicals, to exotic drugs, etc

Also Buddhas Nirvana, means [cessation] cessation of what?

Have you ever thought of that?

It doesnt mean enlightenment as someone here said. It tells us that we get enlightened by some phenomena in our cosciousness that stops[cessation].

Thas pretty simple and reasonable. Now what coud Buddha mean?
By cessation?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I translate nirvana as “extinguishment”, which is, in my opinion, a more severe and accurate rendering than “cessation”, altho they're both close enough. Cessation is kind of kindly, like, “stop beating yourself up” or, more simply, “stopping”. Extinguishment comes closer to the meaning, imo, because it suggests death. Sweet old gotama was a severe dude.

Nirvana doesn't mean anything at all like what modern western humans mean when they say the word enlightenment. They wish it did, but it doesn't.

What is it that extinguishes? Humanity. Which means, the human kind of mind.

—

And, actually, I told you exactly why human civilization is so “messed up” (“messed up” presumes it's not supposed to work this way). But it bears repeating.

Human on human distress is caused by the “whips” of the genetic imperatives and the DNA logic and computation.

That's my current best understanding and story. It has all the failings of any string of words, but it comes fairly close.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Your thread BILL IS A GREAT THING!

We all are learning because of it, so thanks, bro!

Anyway:

It's a stronger word but as you said means the same thing.

Also your explanation for being “messed” up, [obviously you don't think being “messed up, - is a bad thing]

Then how in the world do you even deal with enlightenment, if not on a moral or ethical basis.

A basis of uplifting the entire human race above being “messed up” Macrocosm, and Microcosm.

If we are not “messed up” then all the bad things I said are normal, and acceptable.

Then why even try to be enlightened?

As for your idea of Chemical “messed up” with DNA problems:

Two things:

That's energy [configuration] chemicals. That's a configuration of energy [confined in chemicals, didn't I say that, at first?

Also what is the source of that?

Anyway my thing is we should not debate necessarily but study our human nature so we can change it for the better

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

[obviously you don't think being “messed up, - is a bad thing]

I never said anything like that. I said something like “… it's supposed to be that way”, to which the appropriate response question would be - ” 'supposed to be' from what perspective or level?”.

I've spent large amounts of my lifetime studying ways to get humans to stop attacking each other, and it's still one of my major areas of interest.

Then how in the world do you even deal with enlightenment, if not on a moral or ethical basis. … Then why even try to be enlightened?

That's a very important question.

There are many other states besides nirvana - each of the states with it's own plusses and minuses, and any one of them could be considered to be better than nirvana for modern humans.

Many of the people that our culture considers “enlightened” might actually have one or more of these other states. And these other states may have uses and values that are preferable to extinguishment.

But, ultimately, the value of nirvana and the other enlightenment or near enlightenment states, doesn't lie in ethics. It lies in “seeing reality as it is”, and learning how to use these incredible bodies and brains. 

Which seems to be one of the genetic imperatives, and part of the reason why we kill and hurt each other so much - to become smarter.

That's energy [configuration] chemicals. That's a configuration of energy [confined in chemicals, didn't I say that, at first?

Also what is the source of that?

Actually, technically, it's a configuration of information, not of energy. The energy bonds between atoms hold the information in place, but it's the pattern (or flow) of information, not the energy, that makes DNA work.

And, the simple truth is, we humans, as our minds exist now, do not know the source of dna and it's information. I've used various mental tools to try to find out more, but who knows wether such things reveal real information.

Like I said, enlightenment can occur when a person doesn't lie to themself. I know better than to lie to myself and say DNA comes from this, or from that, when I know that the simple truth is that nobody knows at this time.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I think most belief systems originated out of a fear of death.

I thought everybody knew that. All religions have a conceptual framework for birth/death, creation/destruction, here/there, where did we come from?/where are we going?.

All the big questions, none of which we have truly evidentiary solutions for.

I'm currently fascinated with Brain Theology. We have brains, we have theology. Specific parts of the brain, when stimulated, produce ecstatic visions and spiritual states-of-mind. I have this vision of people having electrodes implanted in their heads (which they can remove, at will) when they want to grab a quick meditation and some awesome Theta waves.

The Dalai Lama agreed to have some Tibetan monks do their meditations while being subjected to cutting-edge brain scans. Those guys put out nothing but Theta.

I'm convinced this part of the Homo Sapiens brain evolved for reasons that help us to survive in a difficult environment, in which food, shelter, group socialization, other tribes who want our food, territory, women, etc. (not to mention figuring out how to keep those pesky saber tooth tigers from preying on us),  

Yup, Cultural Anthropologist blahblahing here.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I think a good, even if amateur, education in cultural anthrolpology is one of the very best tools a practicioner can have.

In fact, I would say, without at least some anthro perspective, a practicioner is probably doomed to be stuck at certain stages of the process, because you can't grasp certain hard and troubling problems from an individual perspective.

If you do this purely from the “spiritual” perspective, you are pretty much screwed. There's no way out of that level, it's an infinite loop.

To put it in old gotama's terms, just because a compound entity imagines it has entered nonduality, or onepointedness, or union with god (or whatever the buzzword is in that era), don't mean it's true.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Wisdom (from enlightenment) and enlightenment seem as two aspects of the same thing. Enlightenment is the knowing, certainty and bliss that comes from a direct connection to the source. Wisdom is the understanding that one gains under such an awakening.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Enlightenment is the knowing, certainty and bliss that comes from a direct connection to the source.

Hi Jeff! Well, that's a beautiful line, but I don't buy it as a definition for enlightenment. I was having profound experiences of knowing, certainty, and bliss because of direct connections to the source years and years before I started even approaching whatever this is that I think of as my “enlightenment”.

“Enlightenment”, as a word in popular usage, is a tough word to define.

And, you know, if you judge it by the percentages of people who believe in a certain definition, I'll bet your line above would come out very close to the top.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been discussed. For the record, I'm not Awake, so this is conjecture taken from what I've learned.

This question sits on a faulty premise - that there is a better or worse. One aspect of enlightened consciousness is that there is no better or worse. Every manifestation or experience is known to be illusion, including every word used to define anything.

In fact, an enlightened guy recently reminded me that “words are violence.” Why? By their very nature, they define things, cut the world up, and take us further from direct realization of oneness.

Wrestling with definitions serves the sleeping differently at different stage. Right now, for me, they are helping me let go of definitions, paradoxical as that may seem after what I've written.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey deep!

In fact, an enlightened guy recently reminded me that “words are violence.”

So, give 'em up! ;-}

Every manifestation or experience is known to be illusion, including every word used to define anything.

Then why do those pesky enlightened characters continue to speak? Why don't they just give it up?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Its a role in the illusion. While the eniity itself may have realized Truth, it continues to perform without a sense of separate I, no longer believing there is anyone real making individual choices. Sometimes the divine script does call for just giving up, other times for communicating.

Since there ultimately is no better or worse, speaking - or even actual violence - is embraced as it arises.

There is no judgment and no choice, only the illusion of both.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

There is no judgment and no choice, only the illusion of both.

If you say so, I suppose it must be true. ;-}

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Don't take my word for it, (clearly you don't) find out for yourself!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Sorry dude, that's just my wierd sense of humor, it makes me chuckle to think of the paradox of warning about the violence of words in words, and the sequence of warning about the violence of words stretching back thru time in a string of words, and the paradox of the negation of choice while making the choice to speak about the negation of choice.

I laugh at reallly strange thing sometimes. ;-}

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Maybe it is just my lack of patience since I didnt read all the post but Let's now define enlightenment and Wisdom…  but before i do i want to address something i think i read correctly.   Someone stated that one of the words were pop culture and had no meaning while the other or both perhaps have lost the meanings in which they are being expressed here.  To both ideas a Say this:  Words only have meaning given to them by those that use them and choose to relay to others their interpreted meaning.  This inturn is echo and amplified by those listening who agree and then tell others.

Now here is what i interpreted each to mean.  Enlightenment is the state in which one has aquired knowledge that allows them to see clearer things others cannot precieve.   while wisdom is the state in which one knows how to properly put into action knowledge that they have acquired.  Both can be independent of each other but i think would best exist together. 

So which is better?  Wisdom since it is easier for people to aquire.  People are lazy and only the pursuit of wisdom on a large scale can affect the world positively. 

But for me… I'd rather have enlightenment.   But I still have a couple more life times to go…

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill and All-

     Sorry about the time off this thread.  Sorta.  It was Father's Day weekend and if my daughters caught me anywhere near a computer I would know the enlightenment answer first hand!

     Alright.  I am ready to put my feet and feat in my mouth again.  I may be wrong.  Don't care.  Where the hell is good 'ole fashioned Quantum Mechanics.  I keep seeing esoteric non concrete idioms thrown around like they are real.  Ha!  I wanna put my finger in the nail holes and my hand in the gash on the side and even after that I may ask how long it took George Lucas's team of special effects artists to drum it up.  Man am I such a skeptic.  Sorry.  So nobody is giving any creedance to the frontal lobe of the brain and it's inherent part in all of this.  Proto-humans begin to eat meat and the resulting protein blast evolves a nice lobe of reasoning and free will oriented thought.  Yeah.  We can now change our minds as a result of the arrival of the frontal lobe.  And Bill, I am still not convinced that any single sensation the brain purges out by way of the hypothalmus is anything more than a chemical induced experience of any kind, spiritual or otherwise.  I am not denying that energy is all pervasive.  I have to admit that I have seen good data supporting the presence of a Unified Field or Zero Point Energy from which all things are made and are apparently mallable wholly by thought.  Light particles in particular seem to be way sensitive to Human thought patterns and their various and sundry intensities of intention.  So if we want to admit that the awareness of this Unified Field from which All stems, is some sort of enlightenment, then I can see that.   If I am wrong in any way in this, please don't insult me by simply stating that's nice Erik, but your wrong or way off base.  Put your money where your mind is and prove it dammit!  I am at least courageous enough to put some detail in my fight to debate this.  And yes it is a battle.  But I like it that way.  But please, please, please, prove it!  No esoteric, vague, non-descript fluvious ranting.  DETAILS!  What's it “feel” like?  Is it emotionless?  Is it nothing seen or maybe it is true sight somehow?  What does that appear like?  I want someone to Carl Sagan it for me and put it in terms that a layman can understand.  I could give two wet slaps what Gangaji, Maharshi, 'Wilber, Cohen, Tolle, Keating, or any of those guys say.  Give me some meat and then I can bring a side dish!  Sorry about the narrow-minded rant.  I want to be educated and I am not even close to being afraid to make a fool of myself for maybe not seeing the obvious if there is such a thing in this matter.  Bring it!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

P.S.  Yup.  That's right.  I mentioned Carl Sagan.  Someone I consider to be one of the most enlightened Humans in history.  Right there with Stephen Hawking.  If we're going to play the game of supposition, let's at least have an educated foundation in commonality to speak from or are we back at “words” and “meaning” again?  Bill, without a doubt, you have piqued me with the most detail and authority I have seen in writing yet on the subject. I still have yet to detect utter Bullshit in your expounding. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.  If you still have an ego and that statement puffed you up a bit, I am glad.  It was supposed to.  Slay my ignorance sir.  Educate me.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

That's a bit of a stream of consciouness presentation there Erik, ha ha ha. ;-}

But I'll choose this to address, because I think it's a very interesting and rather rare question.

What's it “feel” like?  Is it emotionless?  Is it nothing seen or maybe it is true sight somehow?  What does that appear like?

Ahhhhhh, what does it feel like? A rare question.

There's definitely something physiological about it, some kind of neurohormone or neurotransmitter activation. My understanding of it's implications, and the testing of it's qualities, grows constantly, but from the first minutes after it happened, and continuously available with a few seconds thought since then, there has been a steady and everpresent physiological sense of calmness, serenity, I suppose you could say, and, yep, instant access to something that pretty much has to be described as bliss.

Most of the time, I don't want it to be too strong, and, unlike in my earlier years, dealing with “kundalini” and “energy body activation”, when things could get too strong to be comfortable pretty easily, I seem to be able to make it so light as to be barely noticeable, or so strong that my vision gets clouded with bliss, with a small effort of will. (bliss is a really inadequate word - it's more like “appreciation”, as in, “Holy shit, that's so fucking beautiful!”.

It's like it snapped profoundly “ON”, about 8 years ago now, and has been on ever since, with a dial easily available to turn it up and down.

I'll tell you what I think the neurohormone part of it is. I think it's the chemicals that flood the brain in the moments just before and during death. It's like dying without dying.

(The brain chemical aspect is only part of it - I'm personally certain it is not brain chemistry alone, but a kind of synergetic effect that includes the way the mind works with an activation of the death neurochemicals.)

Is it emotionless? Well, I'm still alive, my mind and consciousnes still inhabits this body, and the body is in okay shape, and it's the body that produces the hormones that cause emotions. So, emotions are still present.

But, whatever this is that I'm calling “my enlightenment” seems to be able to make my emotions “transparent” - that is, I am aware that emotion chemicals are moving thru my body, and my brain/mind is ready to respond by streaming emotionally associated images and memories, but with what seems like a very little effort I can make the emotion process “quiet”, like turning down it's strength.

I think of it as making myself “transparent” to the emotion, which might seem like an odd metaphor. But, I recognize I need to have access to the emotion chemistry - since I've decided to continue to live out the rest of my body's natural life - so, I want the emotions to be there, but, I want them to be functioning to serve my entities needs, not ruling me.

Emotions, of course, are the “whips” which the DNA imperatives use to drive we humans to be human and fulfill our human dties. They are the “desires” of old gotama's second noble truth.

This is already pretty long, and I've just started talking about what it feels like. I've left a ton of stuff out. But there it is.

Let me tell you this straight out. Some of that may sound good. But I am no longer really human. There's a severe price. There's a HUGE price. Knowing what I know now - I would have waited until I was older.

Oh yeah - if I turn it on strong, I will not speak. In order to speak, I have to dial it down. In order to live, I have to dial it down.

I love it when I can give myself the luxury of turning it up, and leave the human world, and leave the nonsense of speaking behind. ;-}  

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill-

     Yes!!!!!!!!!  Holy SHIT it's about time someone gives me a smattering of physiological benchmarks by which to recognize this “phenomenon”.  You are the first Bill.  Bless for your straightforward-no Bullshit-always-honest-matter of fact- responses.  There was nothing pithy or esoteric there.  THANK YOU!  Now why the hell am I so excited?  Because I too have experienced physiological weirdness that “felt” wonderful like this and much more but thought I was a complete nutter.  I shared it with NO ONE.  For example.  I am Capt. of Security in a Government Building.  This position for all of it's hoidy toidy sounding title affords me alot of time for silence and stillness.  I think you can recall Bill last year when I wrote of this experience.  I will never forget the first time it happened and now I can just do it with just a little concentration and letting go and being present.  It's a piece of cake really.  Nothing too much to get crazy over except that it is instant relaxation without “a care in the world” calm.  INSTANTLY.  I will describe:

I first experienced it meditating in the bed of my patrol truck out in the redwoods overlooking a reed-filled duck pond.  I had been doing my meditation there in that place for about three months.  This one particular day was magical somehow.  I was already in a very good mood and my mind went to sky fairly quickly.  I also meditate with my eyes open.  If I get sleepy, I widen them.  If mind gets too active, I lower them.  It's an old technique, but effective for me.  So there I am meditating in the perfect light and beauty and in complete stillness when two ducks land just out of my periphery to the right.  Suddenly, I am no longer on this side of face seemingly.  It's like I have no face or body or anything but yet I see.  It was amazing!  I noticed that I could intensify it and dim it down.  As I intensified it, the lighter I felt and the warmer and almost gigglier I felt.  I couldn't stop giggling.  Tears were streaming down my almost imperceptable human face and I was giggling like a school girl in the back of a pick up watching ducks! 

I can do this anytime now, but noticed that if I try to do an “external” task of any kind that requires detail like writing or filework, I cannot do it accurately.  The more I intensify the detached-calm feeling, the sloppier I become physically.  However, doing walking meditation in this manner is just brilliant.  Everything is moving but me.  Mind is moving everything for me.  I am motionless.  It is also quite clear that I am all that I survey.  Nothing exists until I witness it.  The movie of my mind projecting on a shapeless screen.  Others I meet in this movie merely see me as some smiling dope, blissed out of his gourd and high as a kite on his own brain chemicals. 

There is some other stuff too.  Everything appears fuzzy and surrounded by light.  Especially what I feel the fondest of or have lots of love for.  My wife and children when I am at my highest bliss, are totally surrounded by light.  I do this with my food too.  Even potato chips.  I just focus on loving what I eat and the light surrounds it and then I eat it.  It feels great!  I rarely get sick.  But I still have deep emotions in any range.  Anger, sadness, happiness and blah, blah, blah.  It's all still there. 

So you can see why I push for answers from you Bill.  It's to confirm my own experiences.  I will not say that what I have experienced and continue to experience is the same as you, but now I understand that I am not just partially crazy but a complete whacko!  I do not care.  I will continue to enjoy this nice tool that I discovered in myself.  I have yet to really see any place that it is not applicable at some level or other.  When I get home though, I really like to just sit in my backyard and bliss out for about an hour.  I stare at bugs and my apple trees and dog shit and just marvel at it all.  Nuts!!

Is this some of what you speak Bill?  It sounds like it to me.  Again, I don't care and will continue to do so.  As a matter of fact, if this is all there ever was forever, I could never get tired of it.  And what's more, I am not really too concerned whether others get it or not because I sense somehow they will eventually.  My only irritation is why don't they just “Do It” and get it over with.  Once you have experienced this, it is like riding a bike: you never forget again.  And I think that best sums it up right there for me.  It felt like something remembered and nothing learned.  I dunno.  Don't care.  It's wonderful and that's just fine by me. 

There are some other things that I can do as well as a result of this that you can “test” me on Bill if you want, but I think I got the crux of it.  I am not out to prove anything to anyone.  It just seems a shame that if all can do this, then why don't they?  I sound like an arrogant ass I'm sure.  Oh well.  All I can say is that it is fun and has been for 14 months and 3 days now.  What a hoot!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

…your straightforward-no Bullshit-always-honest-matter of fact- responses.  There was nothing pithy or esoteric there. 

I'm glad to hear that, because that is my hope and intention. It may not happen during my lifetime, but I am hoping to contribute to a transformation of the discussion and conversation about this “enlightenment” stuff, and change it from being a religious business and money-making endeavor, into sometime more like a scientific research.

The only way that is likely to happen, is if more people get more access to honest information about the process and all the experiences.

I kinda expect to get a fair amount of criticism and even attacks if I continue to do this, but I have to say, I pretty much welcome it. If what I have learned is real, it will withstand the most severe criticisms. If it's not real, then I, more than anyone else, want to see it's flaws and weaknesses exposed.

I welcome criticism. I especially welcome high quality, thoughtful criticism, but any criticism is helpful.

—

I want to repeat, I have only just begun to talk about “what it feels like”, and I started with the stuff that is easiest to talk about and understand. I've left out what I regard as the most important stuff, and frankly, figuring out exactly how to talk about the most serious stuff is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do.

—

I recognized your experience right away, Erik, back when you first started talking about it. Don't be bummed by my saying this, but while it has some strong similarities to the stuff I'm calling enlightenment, it's not the same. (For which you can be thankful. The experience and states you've discovered are a lot more useful for a relatively younger man with a young family.)

Yes, I'm also sure there's a physiological component to your experiences - just as there is to ALL religious and mystical experiences. No matter how esoteric the language or grandiose the claim (like “non-dual consciousness”), these experiences only ever happen to living humans with complex bodies, brains and minds.

I hope you get a chance to educate yourself even more about the history and the ideas and so forth on this stuff, Erik. And not just the history of “enlightenment” talk, it helps a lot to have a good background in the sciences, and anthropology, psychology, and neurology.

It will take a long time for the humans to wise up about this stuff, but sooner or later, the bullshit will be seen as the immature stuff it is, and people will learn how to have these experiences, and make use of them, as they choose.


 

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill-

     Again, thanks for the curtness and bluntness of your straightforward responses.  Invaluable.  No, I am not bummed by your assessment of my experiences spiritual or neuro-chemical or otherwise (not convinced of an otherwise yet).  To me, I just tapped into a source that is inherent in all human beings.  No big whoop.  It is a neuro-chemical response to lots of time spent doing cerebro-physio conditoning.  Do this, get that.  Do that, this happens.  Experimenting really. 

     Yes!  Enlightenment Sciences.  This is stuff that doesn't have to hide under a cowl in a monastery or buried in a scroll in a cave or some damn brain-twisting kong-an.  It should be as clear a map as possible showing a route that one can take to open to, or “take” as it were, this experience. 

     Like I said Bill, what I have discovered personally I could do forever and be quite content.  It Machts Nicht to me what else there is.  At this point, all else seems an interesting hobby.  I have an interest in learning so long as there is someone with an interest in teaching.  But I have had quite enough of this “go see the Wiseman on the mountaintop” crap that still seems prevalent.  I am all about evolving to ones potential.  Surely the ways to do so also evolve.  If not, my error.  Don't care. 

     Thanks heaps Bill and I will have to think a bit to generate some more pertinent questioning to get this thread back on topic.  Give me some time.  It could be a few days O Wizard O Wise One.  Ha!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

You sound a bit like Tom Cruise Bill

Anyway

Now its time for some real esoterica!


Bill, in my opinion the reason enlightenment is associated with religion is because of this:

This is a conceptual argument:


Religion is a science based on ignorance, and science is a religion based on knowledge.


The point is, since when we start the quest for truth we obviously don’t know the truth, so therefore we are ignorant, so we need a method [religion] that’s based on ignorance, or not knowing.


Now my 2nd proposition “science is a religion based on knowledge” therefore we cant use it to garnish enlightenment directly, because it is based on knowledge, and since we certainly don’t start the path to truth based on knowledge, how can we use science as a method, we would be breaking the first tenet of science.

If we do use the scientific method, it would have to be the aspect of it that deals with hypothetical experimentation.

Do we have the patience to do that?



For the second part of what you say here, unfortunately I must say, you are wrong in my opinion

Though you may be part right.

This is a cosmic argument:


Granted it is true enlightenment is as rare in this world as a five headed dog. BUT, that’s because there are IN REALITY two kinds of humans.

Now I am going into briefly something that you might not like, but just hear me out.


The two kinds of “humans” are

The Transcendent Adam

and the fallen Adam

One is primarily of the nature of science, and the other is the nature of earth.


The one with the nature of science [Transcendent Adam] is much rarer in this world than the Fallen Adam, but the enlightened ones are by the vast majority from the Transcendent Adam strain. That is because their nature is more inclined to “science” than the ‘earthly fallen Adam.

They therefore are able to do this stuff, almost by their nature, whereas the earthly or fallen Adam is by nature more inclined to enjoy life existentially, than the transcendent Adam.

Inclination is not always a certainty though, but it is dam sure almost a certain possibility.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Religion is a science based on ignorance, and science is a religion based on knowledge.

Well Zak, I don't agree with that definition, and I don't see how you can support it. I see the reality as being pretty much the opposite of that definition, that is, that religion is based on the claim of revealed or special knowledge from some past human or deity, while science is a method for investigation based on measurements, record keeping, and sharing records. You could make and defend the argument that religion is based on knowledge, while science is based on lack of knowledge.

The two kinds of “humans” are … The Transcendent Adam … and the fallen Adam

I can't see any use to a claim like this. The language choice indicates it's a religious statement.

It sounds suspiciously political to me. Humans have a long history of claiming that some other group of people that they don't like are actually some variety of subhuman abomination. Makes it easier to kill 'em and take their stuff.


  

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill religion is based on faith, right. Faith is not knowledge it is in reality, ignorance. The faith hasn't produced yet knowledge. If as you say it is based on revelation, the believers didn't get the revelation, they just have faith in it, that my friend is still ignorance.

They may one day get knowledge. But all religious matrixes are based on not knowing, [faith] how could you deny that. We are not referring to Muhammad, or Buddha, but the reality of religion as the laymen knows it.

That's why religion is based on ignorance, ultimately, in seems to me.

Also however you look at it, any science has to have a foundation of some established knowledge, even in order to establish any hypothesis.

How is one going to establish the reality of Atomic energy, if they don't have a sound knowledgeable established basis already in molecular theory, or advanced chemistry? That's established knowledge.

That's why science is ultimately dependent on established knowledge.

As for the Adamic designations, I probably shouldn't have even told you about that because it is a part of a larger tapestry of cosmic theory

Although I am aware of the potential dangers of ideas [I even criticize Ken Wilber and his 2^nd tier stuff] like this, it is a religious notion that therefore most likely would render it harmless.

Also as I stated the Transcendent Adams are very rare, that's why enlightenment is rare,

One more thing. In most spiritual cosmologies, or theosophies they ALL recognize that there is an elite. Though it is suggested that this concept be not over emphasized, for the obvious reasons.

Check out my profile,[ when you get a free minute] and see my entire doctrine of the 6 transcendent natures, plus [1] in which the Adamic 2 I mentioned are a part of.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I don't see the use of any of it, Zak.

I understand, most humans on this planet are imprinted with the religion culture-stream, and this is unlikely to change for thousands of years.

But religious models block “enlightenment”, in all it's various forms. No religious person has ever become “enlightened”. Religion must end in order for the space needed for “enlightenment” to open.

To say it another way, faith is the ultimate obstacle humans place between themselves and the experience humans call “God”.

As for me, I have stained my prayer rug with wine, I have no need of faith.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

You're preaching to the choir, I also think religion sucks. I don't think it could be abolished any time soon though. People may just have to see that it is not too much of use, and then maybe they will discard it.

I look at  religion as mythology, metophor and symbiology  In other words I incorporate it for seeking knowledge.

Peak Experiences

Your post reminded me of Abraham Maslow, a famous psychologist chose to study highly functioning people like Einstein, rather than focus on neurosis.

I respectfully suggest that what you are experiencing are what Maslow called “peak experiences”.

Short quote from Maslow.

“I have recently found it more and more useful to differentiate between two kinds of self-actualizing people, those who were clearly healthy, but with little or no experiences of transcendence, and those in whom transcendent experiencing was important and even central… It is unfortunate that I can no longer be theoretically neat at this level. I find not only self-actualizing persons who transcend, but also non-healthy people, non-self-actualizers who have important transcendent experiences. It seems to me that I have found some degree of transcendence in many people other than self-actualizing ones as I have defined this term”

Re: Peak Experiences

Hello Jewdist-

     It is similar to that but.., I think what Maslow is eluding to is the idea that these practiced or nonpracticed people were having experiences that were rare or one time occurances.  I can turn mine on at will and “adjust” the intensity to whatever level is comfortable or practical for the task at hand should there be one.  I can peak it or subdue it with thought and concentration in a rather rapid manner.  So if it is suggestive of a peak experience I can see where Maslow's studies have shown similar experiential qualities to my own.  I will have to read more on it and see whether his subjects had them by will of thought or they just occured as a result of a culmination of environment and internal frame of mind.  Interesting.  Thanks!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Peak Experiences

Peak experiences or intense feelings of ecstasy accompanied by profound physical well-being can be brought on by willing them.

It's like learning to do any new skill. You practice and get better and better at it.

When you're a kid first learning to ride a bike, you wobble and feel self-conscious and fearful. When you're an adult who rides often and well, you ride without feeling the bike, you ride in rhythm to your breathing, you perceive beauty everywhere, you communicate with a nod to other riders who know what this ecstasy feels like.

Ride on!

Sally

Re: Peak Experiences

I agree, these experiences and states are Maslowian “peak experiences”.

Maslow's term is a general categorization, and it includes all this “enlightenment” stuff.

Re: Peak Experiences

Hey Bill, not to change the subject,  But I see you are a fan of Idries Shah. That's good. The guy is my adapted father, by the way.

Also I see you are a critic of Wilber's Integral. That's good too [Just watch your back over there, there is a lot of hidden obsession] I read some of your rap in I-I Zaadz   I am also a critic of Wilber.

Check my Essays out on Integral World, interesting reading.

Go to “all essays by author” and look for Ishaq

http://www.integralworld.net/

Re: Peak Experiences

Yes, I like Idries Shah a lot. He was a major influence on me, so much so that I consider his book “Learning How To Learn” to be the basic beginners manual for training oneself in the way that I think is most likely to lead to a modern “enlightened” state.

A brilliant thinker. Like most of we “seekers after truth”, he had his flaws, but he did soime great work.

I assume “adopted father” is a metaphor?

—

It's more that I'm a critic of “movements” and “enlightenment industries”, than that I'm a critic of integralism and Wilber per se.

Wilber has made some mistakes, but he's also providing a fascinating example to study and learn from.

But, it would be a further mistake to ignore the cultic behavior that he has allowed to happen in his name. I understand, these things happen, blind spots happen.

And you can say the same things about all “enlightenment organizations” and in-groups.

But, if you are a practicioner, you have to look for your own blind spots, or they will come back to haunt you.

I'll look for your articles at integralworld.

Re: Peak Experiences

Ken Wilber is a master of multi-level marketing. What's up with a guy who uses a 20 year-old picture of his sexy self? What's up with a guy who develops a tiered system for making money, based on his philosophical maunderings? What's up with a guy who couldn't cut it at Medical School and now claims he knows better?

He's a master of the PT Barnum effect, the gullibility of the masses for novelty, freakish exhibits, and that self-deified mumbo jumbo, while he races to the bank.

Don't get me started on this guy.

Re: Peak Experiences

Talk about saying something unpopular on zaadz, ha ha ha ha ha….

Start in on Andy on they'll have a inquisition. ;-}

Re: Peak Experiences

http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?ishaq3.html

I hear ya

Re: Peak Experiences

Wow Jewdist! I am eating out of your hand. Speaking of PT Barnum - to paraphrase him:

“There is a seeker born every minute!”

Actually that phrase was not actually uttered by him but by one of his competitors, but it got stuck to him.

Mark

Re: Peak Experiences

Actually Cowboy Ken has his good side.

As I point out in the essay: nothing is all good or all bad.

Only thing though: there are enough bad people to make the bad seem good, and the good hide!

Re: Peak Experiences

     Ken Wilber, like myself, has had some marvelous peak experiences that he muddles to the point of Spiritual Incoherence because of an avid fascination with his own overblown vocabulary.  I will put Winnie-The-Pooh against K-Dub any day.  Hmmm, Coddleston Pie vs. the BS of Four Quadrants.  It's so overstuffed with needless detail that it is utterly confusing unless you got conned into buying the previous five books like I did.  Yup.  I admit it.  I got strung along.  I kept waiting for the prize.  The prize is his Swiss account.  The bald Boulder Geek is a brilliant con-artist that is just enough right at times to catch the weak minded like myself.  That's what I get for using mind instead of discarding it.  Don't make anything you have to believe in to exist.  Lesson learned.  I need nothing to believe in to exist.  If I believe, I'm using mind as an identifier intead of the fleshy abacus of tool it really is.  Sorry about the off-topic rant on K-Dub, but at least I didn't start it out in all-caps, right Zak? = )  In my needless opinion, Ken Wilber wrote one good book about the dying journey of his first wife and the rest is just fluffy pontification on the topic of how he is the Spiritual equivalent of Einstein.  He lost me as soon as he pit a Liberal viewpoint politically as favorable against a Conservative one.  Frankly, I think as soon as he identified with any of them he put himself into a dual state which contradicts most of what he is saying most of the time.  Hmmmmmmmm.  Oh well.

     Now, back to you Bill.  What do you have to offer?  What magnanimously pithy esoterica can you produce as bait to catch a fish like me?  Or have I already bitten the hook? (duh, I responded to this thread)  Seriously.  Does enlightenment even matter really?  It's inevidible isn't it?  Collective Consciousness is pushing in that direction for lack of a better phrase, right?  This weak mind would like to “Know”.  At worst, I am at square one.  At best, I learn something anyway.  Not that learning is important…

Coddleston, Coddleston, Coddleston Pie…

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Peak Experiences

Erik, I’m thinking we should start a new thread for these stages of the conversation, this thread is long and a bit tangled. I’m not quite sure what the new thread should be called, tho.

So, questions…

Does “enlightenment” really matter?

Less than one would think. It can matter a lot to the individual. To the collective, it is a threat.

Is it inevitable?

Nope.

Is collective consciousness pushing in that direction?

Absolutely not.

And the unasked question - why do people say things like the questions just asked?

Different people have different reasons. Some are blatantly lying. Some are innocently lying. Some are just mistaken. Most say such things because such things have been said, and for no other reason.

When they are mistaken, the problem usually arises because people haven’t realized that not only are there multiple forms of “enlightenment”, but that there are many states which aren’t “enlightenment”, but are still damned interesting states.

So, they mistake one form of “enlightenment” for another, or they mistake a non-enlightened state for “enlightenment”.

Re: Peak Experiences

Hello Bill-

     I am still thinking.  Terrible, I know.  Or don't know.  Hell with it.  It would help I guess, if you could, but for not to cheapen your current as yet undefined enlightened state, put a little more out there as to what we should be looking for if looking at all is even necessary.  I feel that looking personally, only acts as a distraction.  I like what I call, Cerebral Oblivion.  I am here, but there is no thought.  If I think or move (chicken or the egg?) it's gone.  What is more than that?  I must feel this.  I must evolve to this.  I am sorry for the pleas that seem to indicate a direction to go for lack of better questioning technique.  What else can one not do if currently not doing anything?  I am admittedly perplexed.  Enlighten me…

Erik

Re: Peak Experiences

Ahhh, Erik, sad to see you go.

And I was working on such an interesting answer to your question…

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

yes id like to say that enlightenment is better than wisdom

here is my argument

one can be wise yet not be enlightened
yet one cannot be enlightened and unwise

enlightenment implies wisdom yet so much more

its like asking which is better
spokane washington or the united states

well the united states implies spokane washington

you cant have spokane washington without the united states
because thats where spokane is

with the united states you get spokane implicitly
spokane comes with the deal

you could have of course only spokane and thats fine and well
but with spokane plus the rest of the country comes so much more

its like asking which is better
my brain or my whole body

my point is that the whole body is better
because you get the brain along with the deal already

you can have your cake and eat it too

its better to have a million dollars than to have just one

love to all

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Two questions.

How do you know?

and

Which enlightenment are you referring to?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

All of which goes to show that the internet is really good for masturbation.

Now some masturbate to get a little release so they can go on with other matters,

but some just keep on and on and on…

Come on, is this really fun? Is it?

You are too clever for your own good, Bill.

After just a bit of this, I feel like I used to when I discovered I had spent an hour browsing in a dime store.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I am arguably too clever for my own good, Peter.

However, one has to talk to people where they are, not where one wishes they were.

If everyone is in the dime store, the perfectly said and truest thing spoken in the million-dollar stores does nothing but vibrate a few molecules of nitrogen and oxygen.

This is triage, not true medicine. And I am fully aware of that.

Nor do I expect that any of the third that can bear even a little can survive.

It's the parable of the sower in this real life, the only life you and I will ever have.

And I am watching intently your efforts to speak in the million-dollar store. Tho, it looks like the million-dollar store is still empty.

If you have the cure for my cleverness, cure me if you dare.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

This should be an interesting read…I am starting from the top and will eventually get to the bottom…great question!

I am not a fan of mulitiple choice questions but I will take (B) Wisdom…but I have a feeling this will get a bit mumbled as I work my way around this all.

Thanks,

Denim

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Ha ha ha - well, it is meant to be a kind of a trick question.

The trick part is, of course, “better for what?”.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill,  I am not sure where to post this, I chose here but it also answers my other post  “Enlightenment came crashing through the door”…

This is long, really long but so is this thread…!!!!

“coarse sandpiper”, “cosmic egocentrism”…whoa…Poor Bill, well at least you admit to knowing it would stir folks up some, stirring is always a good thing anyway, or so I think. I may even be stirring it again as I bring it forward after all this time. Once I saw the original date of inception, I rather felt silly resurrecting it. I will go forth cautiously in the future around here. I mean no harm by bringing this back into space, I just stumbled into the group, felt a connection and zealousness overtook me as usual. It appears Bill you are the only one left willing to ring it around the rosy with me! It is a great thread and as far as I am concerned, it exercises the mind. Your right Bill, asking questions is what it is all about, or so I agree. Here we are, 2008!

So I was right, I changed my mind a hundred times overall throughout the dialogue. Sometimes I agreed, sometimes not, sometimes I liked you and sometimes not! A real roller coaster of ride here! Thanks to all, btw, I mean that, there were some great thoughts.

I now know for sure I don't have a clue what enlightenment is, I don't' think I ever believed myself to know “it” or maybe I did. Therefore, you have cleared this up for me. I guarantee you however; I will ask others for their definition down the road. I do associate it with a feeling more than a theory that is about all I know for now.

This is also a great example and reason why I should stay away from this type of dialogue, too confusing when you hold no absolutes. My New Year resolution is to grow me some absolutes, perhaps, which is my issue, so I have been told…

I agree coldheartedly with you Bill about the excess bullshit, there is so much out there, but it is everywhere. I used to be full of it once, still am but just not loading around so much at present. I sure hope this is the case or else this whole trip was wasted.

You need some background on me, just a bit.

Background: I know no enlightenment systems nor hold no absolutes of council. Am definitely an open being and more than ready to wonder about something new that comes along. I respect all paths chosen and believe this not to be my business of others, mind self is my other golden rule. “I know nothing” is a perspective that works for me and I have taken stand on the following line…that the less I know the better am I. My mission is to dump all that I know, empty self out and start again with nothing. I don't how, why or where this started, (well actually I do) it just works for me, I don't know what model this fits either. Someone up thread alluded to a theory similar of nature and I should gander that. I don't hold absolutes, processes, ideologies, dogma or doctrine or devotions to follow or guide me, just my family. It is the liken of; when lost go back to start and try again, this is how I remember learning to tie my shoes, start from the beginning.

I respect all choices and paths… is MY golden rule.

I DO belong to or am of a culture that was and is influential and can see I still take this as first spin when anything comes along. Meaning that I still hold up all new info against my cultural worldviews, beliefs and values. I DO admit it gets in the way and realized it has stymied my entrance into new realms from time to time. I know that I have rejected certain theories as it has conflicted with my cultural self. I probably still do although I will tell you it doesn't or am totally unaware of it but most importantly to know is that today I am comfortable with the absurd conflicts. (Okay I will tell I am but I am not totally sure, you kicked this one open for me so I need to think about it!)…I think I am…no…I am cool with it…really!

So perhaps I should take back my earlier statement that I have no absolutes, perhaps I do have a few after all. With that admittance I am like goulash pie with my ideologies, a little of this and a little of that and sometimes, they contradict each other like no ones business.  It pisses off others so I keep this wrapped up for the most. You are left agitated, insulted or concluding of me…so has been my witness. I am not enough or too much for others.  I just have not found my box to fit in. I wanted to, tried desperately for years but it was not out there. I stopped looking. I found my belonging elsewhere, just here hanging with family that is all, nothing major but it is my box. For now…

I don't know if I qualify as your regular person you were looking for Bill. I have some silly degree in Native Studies and Anthropology, that is all, it served me well for the time and purpose. I forgot most of it to be honest but I think I had a really great time while trying to get it. I have had several careers, kids, two marriages, mortgage payments etc, etc,. I have roots growing out of my potatoes that should be composted but I keep walking past them, my lint dryer is full and the garbage is overflowing. Oh and I only paid the minimum on my Visa bill this month and last and the month before…is that the regular type of people you were looking for? You never added any qualifications for your “regular person”.

What is my definition of enlightenment? You know Bill, I will be honest that this word hits a sore spot for me. I had a teacher that I had to put up with for two years that used this word in a condescending manner. Her goal in life was to “enlighten” me.

What is enlightenment? Hhhmmmm….See all I got is what I have been taught from a cultural perspective of a teaching transmitted via my native language. I have spun the “cultural thing” around a few times just to be sure. Meaning that I rejected it, questioned it and now returned to it…again! It does not even matter what cultural view it is as my point here is it is a cultural worldview passed down to me so should we not keep this in the spectrum of conversation? My answer might make more sense if we did.

So I get this was a bit of a pissing match and had to really look to find any real information, no big deal. However, I wondered all through this where was the relativity. I found myself missing some “stuff” before I could comfortably pull out my critical eyepiece on any of it. For each answer posted, I wondered what is their background, cosmology, language, place of origin, worldview, religion, ideologies, biography…etc…etc…Where does cultural background come into play here?

As you can see, I am trying to wiggle my absolute in here.

In our need to understand our human selves and whatever enlightenment experience we may encounter, I think we should examine it from a wider angle of relativity. This may assist us equally in the bullshit detecting process or assist us to understand each other more, take your pick. “It” is all connected so should we not examine it from this perspective. You mentioned language and stories but hardly…

“bhakti”…how do you pronounce this anyway? I don't know yet even if I want to know. I had to google 8 times to each new theory brought in…I am feeling terribly out of my league here, you can freely tell me so…no I will admit this one out loud.

“Enlightenment can only be taken?”… Enlightenment can only be taken… Enlightenment can only be taken… Enlightenment can only be taken…hhhhmmmm….I rest, to now wonder upon this or to go shoot hubby the finger, perhaps I will do both!

I do have absolutes so therefore I take back my other statement…enlightenment did not come crashing through my door, I don't have a clue what did!

Another note, just for fun…in my language we have no word for absolute or truth, our language implies that absolute truth is unknowable or only available to the person speaking. I fly with this, it works for me because it is my inherited absolute? Perhaps…but I think it is really cool nonetheless but this is my complete bias shining in!  I am not lying either… niwii-debwe

My tag line is nonconformist, it is there for reason and has been all my life, I am trying to lose all my rational…maybe that's the secret????

(Erik…you're a trooper man…!)

As far as my story goes and what the heck happened, all I know and care is it got me here, I was scared into sensibility.  I am going to save the entire story; I am still trying to define where to drop it on here. I have been looking for a place to take this story for two years; it may be here online or not. I am a wanna be irrational gal Bill, so I will wait till my rational intuition kicks in before I plop it out!

That was a ton of fun and it gave me a ton of new wonder, I LOVE this place!

How have my absolutes or delusion of non absolutes hindered my growth, or how has my bullshit and lies prevented me from growing and moving on…???

Thanks Bill for stirring my pot and letting me know I am full of shit…seriously…I needed it!