Gaia: Beyond Enlightenment

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://kotodama.gaia.com — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 00:39:12 GMT

Do an enlightened person have to think about money about something different from a flower of from a piece of shit?
I have a post about this question in my Gaia blog...
Money
Why do so many "spiritual" people think that money stinks?
When will we finally see money as what it is,
the reflection of a state of free flow...

Re: Enlightment came crashing in the door!

http://simpleandbasic.gaia.com — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 04:39:44 GMT

Hi Bill!

I responded to this in your origianl thread Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Thanks again!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://simpleandbasic.gaia.com — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 03:54:13 GMT

Hey Bill, I am not sure where to post this, I chose here but it also answers my other post "Enlightenment came crashing through the door"...

This is long, really long but so is this thread...!!!!

"coarse sandpiper", "cosmic egocentrism"...whoa...Poor Bill, well at least you admit to knowing it would stir folks up some, stirring is always a good thing anyway, or so I think. I may even be stirring it again as I bring it forward after all this time. Once I saw the original date of inception, I rather felt silly resurrecting it. I will go forth cautiously in the future around here. I mean no harm by bringing this back into space, I just stumbled into the group, felt a connection and zealousness overtook me as usual. It appears Bill you are the only one left willing to ring it around the rosy with me! It is a great thread and as far as I am concerned, it exercises the mind. Your right Bill, asking questions is what it is all about, or so I agree. Here we are, 2008!

So I was right, I changed my mind a hundred times overall throughout the dialogue. Sometimes I agreed, sometimes not, sometimes I liked you and sometimes not! A real roller coaster of ride here! Thanks to all, btw, I mean that, there were some great thoughts.

I now know for sure I don't have a clue what enlightenment is, I don't' think I ever believed myself to know "it" or maybe I did. Therefore, you have cleared this up for me. I guarantee you however; I will ask others for their definition down the road. I do associate it with a feeling more than a theory that is about all I know for now.

This is also a great example and reason why I should stay away from this type of dialogue, too confusing when you hold no absolutes. My New Year resolution is to grow me some absolutes, perhaps, which is my issue, so I have been told...

I agree coldheartedly with you Bill about the excess bullshit, there is so much out there, but it is everywhere. I used to be full of it once, still am but just not loading around so much at present. I sure hope this is the case or else this whole trip was wasted.

You need some background on me, just a bit.

Background: I know no enlightenment systems nor hold no absolutes of council. Am definitely an open being and more than ready to wonder about something new that comes along. I respect all paths chosen and believe this not to be my business of others, mind self is my other golden rule. "I know nothing" is a perspective that works for me and I have taken stand on the following line...that the less I know the better am I. My mission is to dump all that I know, empty self out and start again with nothing. I don't how, why or where this started, (well actually I do) it just works for me, I don't know what model this fits either. Someone up thread alluded to a theory similar of nature and I should gander that. I don't hold absolutes, processes, ideologies, dogma or doctrine or devotions to follow or guide me, just my family. It is the liken of; when lost go back to start and try again, this is how I remember learning to tie my shoes, start from the beginning.

I respect all choices and paths... is MY golden rule.

I DO belong to or am of a culture that was and is influential and can see I still take this as first spin when anything comes along. Meaning that I still hold up all new info against my cultural worldviews, beliefs and values. I DO admit it gets in the way and realized it has stymied my entrance into new realms from time to time. I know that I have rejected certain theories as it has conflicted with my cultural self. I probably still do although I will tell you it doesn't or am totally unaware of it but most importantly to know is that today I am comfortable with the absurd conflicts. (Okay I will tell I am but I am not totally sure, you kicked this one open for me so I need to think about it!)...I think I am...no...I am cool with it...really!

So perhaps I should take back my earlier statement that I have no absolutes, perhaps I do have a few after all. With that admittance I am like goulash pie with my ideologies, a little of this and a little of that and sometimes, they contradict each other like no ones business. It pisses off others so I keep this wrapped up for the most. You are left agitated, insulted or concluding of me...so has been my witness. I am not enough or too much for others. I just have not found my box to fit in. I wanted to, tried desperately for years but it was not out there. I stopped looking. I found my belonging elsewhere, just here hanging with family that is all, nothing major but it is my box. For now...

I don't know if I qualify as your regular person you were looking for Bill. I have some silly degree in Native Studies and Anthropology, that is all, it served me well for the time and purpose. I forgot most of it to be honest but I think I had a really great time while trying to get it. I have had several careers, kids, two marriages, mortgage payments etc, etc,. I have roots growing out of my potatoes that should be composted but I keep walking past them, my lint dryer is full and the garbage is overflowing. Oh and I only paid the minimum on my Visa bill this month and last and the month before...is that the regular type of people you were looking for? You never added any qualifications for your "regular person".

What is my definition of enlightenment? You know Bill, I will be honest that this word hits a sore spot for me. I had a teacher that I had to put up with for two years that used this word in a condescending manner. Her goal in life was to "enlighten" me.

What is enlightenment? Hhhmmmm....See all I got is what I have been taught from a cultural perspective of a teaching transmitted via my native language. I have spun the "cultural thing" around a few times just to be sure. Meaning that I rejected it, questioned it and now returned to it...again! It does not even matter what cultural view it is as my point here is it is a cultural worldview passed down to me so should we not keep this in the spectrum of conversation? My answer might make more sense if we did.

So I get this was a bit of a pissing match and had to really look to find any real information, no big deal. However, I wondered all through this where was the relativity. I found myself missing some "stuff" before I could comfortably pull out my critical eyepiece on any of it. For each answer posted, I wondered what is their background, cosmology, language, place of origin, worldview, religion, ideologies, biography...etc...etc...Where does cultural background come into play here?

As you can see, I am trying to wiggle my absolute in here.

In our need to understand our human selves and whatever enlightenment experience we may encounter, I think we should examine it from a wider angle of relativity. This may assist us equally in the bullshit detecting process or assist us to understand each other more, take your pick. "It" is all connected so should we not examine it from this perspective. You mentioned language and stories but hardly...

"bhakti"...how do you pronounce this anyway? I don't know yet even if I want to know. I had to google 8 times to each new theory brought in...I am feeling terribly out of my league here, you can freely tell me so...no I will admit this one out loud.

"Enlightenment can only be taken?"... Enlightenment can only be taken... Enlightenment can only be taken... Enlightenment can only be taken...hhhhmmmm....I rest, to now wonder upon this or to go shoot hubby the finger, perhaps I will do both!

I do have absolutes so therefore I take back my other statement...enlightenment did not come crashing through my door, I don't have a clue what did!

Another note, just for fun...in my language we have no word for absolute or truth, our language implies that absolute truth is unknowable or only available to the person speaking. I fly with this, it works for me because it is my inherited absolute? Perhaps...but I think it is really cool nonetheless but this is my complete bias shining in! I am not lying either... niwii-debwe

My tag line is nonconformist, it is there for reason and has been all my life, I am trying to lose all my rational...maybe that's the secret????

(Erik...you're a trooper man...!)

As far as my story goes and what the heck happened, all I know and care is it got me here, I was scared into sensibility. I am going to save the entire story; I am still trying to define where to drop it on here. I have been looking for a place to take this story for two years; it may be here online or not. I am a wanna be irrational gal Bill, so I will wait till my rational intuition kicks in before I plop it out!

That was a ton of fun and it gave me a ton of new wonder, I LOVE this place!

How have my absolutes or delusion of non absolutes hindered my growth, or how has my bullshit and lies prevented me from growing and moving on...???

Thanks Bill for stirring my pot and letting me know I am full of shit...seriously...I needed it!

Re: Enlightment came crashing in the door!

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:06:45 GMT

What was your 'enlightenment crashing thru the door' experience like?

I'm such a wild eyed radical when it comes to enlightenment practice ( and theory - but theories are so predictably boring - so I hardly care about theory anymore), that it hardly seems to be worthwhile to discuss it much in a very conventional place like gaia.

Thats what I mean when i say in my profile that it's a usually a waste of time to discuss it much. I don't mean it's actually a waste of time - I mean I'm not going to have nice comforting things to say, and since people equate "enlightenment" with the comfort of religion, what i want to talk about ain't gonna make'em happy.

Still, I love this stuff. ;-}

Re: Enlightment came crashing in the door!

http://simpleandbasic.gaia.com — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:28:54 GMT

Hi Bill and thanks for the welcome!

I belong to a 1000's groups and 3 are active or something like that.

I am interested in tangling into your thoughts, just caught your profile. It appears you have a passion for the subject, great!

Just a quick "thanks" to let you know I will be back, interesting stuff. I got to go cut some more wood! LOL

Denim

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:26:44 GMT

Ha ha ha - well, it is meant to be a kind of a trick question.

The trick part is, of course, "better for what?".

Re: Enlightment came crashing in the door!

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:24:27 GMT

Hi Denim, welcome to the place.

Yep, this group has been quiet. It was started by a fellow who hasn't been writing anything here (on gaia) for quite a while.

I watch over it, because i have a big interest in the topic. I'm always ready to chat about it.

My thinking about "enlightenment" is kinda different than the usual, tho, ha ha ha.

Re: No Trace Of Enlightenment

http://simpleandbasic.gaia.com — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:35:32 GMT

Hi Wren,

Okay I know it has been months since this post, but for the record this is "wow" for me! I don't even know why yet...I am going to take a few more stabs at it and see what floats to the top!

meegwetch!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://simpleandbasic.gaia.com — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:29:38 GMT

This should be an interesting read...I am starting from the top and will eventually get to the bottom...great question!

I am not a fan of mulitiple choice questions but I will take (B) Wisdom...but I have a feeling this will get a bit mumbled as I work my way around this all.

Thanks,

Denim

Enlightment came crashing in the door!

http://simpleandbasic.gaia.com — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:26:20 GMT

Well after taking a look through some of the posts, I am not even sure what I am going to call it now. Enlightenment is not a word I have used in m;y vocabulary. Besides the point for now as my attempt right now is to kick some dust up around here again. As a new member to Gaia it is so exciting to find these groups and you get hyped to start joining in to find out...all is quiet. So I should I assume all the enlightened ones are out busy working chopping wood! (LOL) (I seriously was earlier today, no joking either.)

Nonetheless, another great group and was truly excited to find it. I am going to keep reading.

Enlightenment came crashing through my door completely uninvited, I went runnng out with it. I have a tendancy to leap before I think...sometimes you win and sometimes you loose but does that even really matter?

Wicked ride!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:08:47 GMT

I am arguably too clever for my own good, Peter.

However, one has to talk to people where they are, not where one wishes they were.

If everyone is in the dime store, the perfectly said and truest thing spoken in the million-dollar stores does nothing but vibrate a few molecules of nitrogen and oxygen.

This is triage, not true medicine. And I am fully aware of that.

Nor do I expect that any of the third that can bear even a little can survive.

It's the parable of the sower in this real life, the only life you and I will ever have.

And I am watching intently your efforts to speak in the million-dollar store. Tho, it looks like the million-dollar store is still empty.

If you have the cure for my cleverness, cure me if you dare.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://Pierre-le-Danois.gaia.com — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:32:03 GMT

All of which goes to show that the internet is really good for masturbation.

Now some masturbate to get a little release so they can go on with other matters,

but some just keep on and on and on...

Come on, is this really fun? Is it?

You are too clever for your own good, Bill.

After just a bit of this, I feel like I used to when I discovered I had spent an hour browsing in a dime store.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:04:12 GMT

Two questions.

How do you know?

and

Which enlightenment are you referring to?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

http://rosh.gaia.com — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:04:58 GMT

yes id like to say that enlightenment is better than wisdom here is my argument one can be wise yet not be enlightened yet one cannot be enlightened and unwise enlightenment implies wisdom yet so much more its like asking which is better spokane washington or the united states well the united states implies spokane washington you cant have spokane washington without the united states because thats where spokane is with the united states you get spokane implicitly spokane comes with the deal you could have of course only spokane and thats fine and well but with spokane plus the rest of the country comes so much more its like asking which is better my brain or my whole body my point is that the whole body is better because you get the brain along with the deal already you can have your cake and eat it too its better to have a million dollars than to have just one love to all

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 21 May 2008 19:55:08 GMT

I have thought of this as the paradox of enlightenment.

Yes, me too.

Well, one of the paradoxes of 'enlightenment'.

Re: The Stock Market and Enlightenment

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 21 May 2008 19:51:58 GMT

have found the study of psychology and the practice of emotional management extremely helpful in my performance.

I would expect that you do, on multiple levels.

Even tho I've ended up being qute interested in 'enlightenment' states and conditions, along the way I've concluded there there are many 'technologies of self-development' that have other valuable effects. Those effects aren't 'enlightenment' related, but they can and do result in an improved human being.

I've also included that in many cases, the improved human being is, in general, more useful than the 'enlightened' human being.

'Enlightenment' is a kind of extreme - the distant end of the bell curve. Improved humans may be more valuable to the whold body of humanity.

Tho, one should also add, that position of mine is certain to be disputeable and debateable.

The Stock Market and Enlightenment

http://prgsmff.gaia.com — Wed, 21 May 2008 05:02:00 GMT

I am a pension fund manager (stock trader) and have found the study of psychology and the practice of emotional management extremely helpful in my performance. I would like to find people with similar interests or experiences to discuss this with.

Thanks!

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://prgsmff.gaia.com — Wed, 21 May 2008 04:30:55 GMT

I have a few thoughts on this.

First, I want to refer to psychotherapy. Psychotherapy does not work for everybody. It usually works best for people willing to take a large amount of personal responsibility, not relying on a therapist to 'cure' them. It is also a very important aspect of psychotherapy that the client pay the therapist. I can think of several reasons this is important: giving away resources to someone to help you makes you value the time and services more, paying someone puts the power and responsibility into your hands, paying shows your gratitude/appreciation to the therapist (and by extension to yourself), etc.

Second, regarding enlightened people making money, I agree with the poster that said truly enlightened people don't tend to teach spirituality. I have thought of this as the paradox of enlightenment. Enlightenment is a solitary transcendence, as far as I know. When a person reaches enlightenment, they see the perfection in the world. What could they possibly add by teaching things? These people would be content living out their lives in isolation on a hillside.

However there are a fair number of people who gain enlightenment and then return to worldly existence to help people. Is this desire to help people a sign that they never reached full enlightenment? As we know, enlightenment for the most part is not something that can be directly 'taught'. In order to try to teach people, the teacher must step out of true enlightenment. Why would someone do this? And if they did, wouldn't they have to shift their consciousness back to the worldly in order to teach, thereby tainting everything they teach?

Re: A model of Authenticity..John de Ruiter.

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:40:45 GMT

Why don't you pick an idea or two and expound on it,. tell us what you think it means, and why it's important to you?

When it comes to teachers. I'm always mostly interested in how people are using and internalizing their ideas - the teachers themselves aren't nearly as interesting as what their students do with the teachings.

A model of Authenticity..John de Ruiter.

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:43:37 GMT

Namaste everyone.....wanting to say hello from My heart to Yours .. The One heart we all are.
It appears that " I " am awakening from the level of Mind to the level of Being and I am commited to Truth and living authentically,.. everything else has taken a back seat.
I would like to share with you my experiece over the last three days in "Meetings with John de Ruiter " held in the area where I live...I came across Johns, book and tapes some years back now and until now haven,t had the priveledge of being in his presence. I always felt he was the real deal .... presence personified and now after "meeing" him I would say that knowing is correct. Every word he so eloquently uttered resonated deeply within me from my own experience of awakening..so after the meeting I was surprised to hear the people sitting around me saying they couldn,t follow/ understand his meaning when for me it is so very clear. So obviously mixed experiences all round. What he said confirmed for me what my inner has been knowing and living these last few years..I am not saying that I am anywhere near the level of such a one as he , but much of what he spoke in answer to audience initiated questions confirmed this inner knowing and experience for me. Would be interested to hear about others experience of John....signing off for now. Blessings.Christos