Gaia: Beyond Enlightenment - Conversations - Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations?

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://kotodama.gaia.com — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 00:39:12 GMT

Do an enlightened person have to think about money about something different from a flower of from a piece of shit?
I have a post about this question in my Gaia blog...
Money
Why do so many "spiritual" people think that money stinks?
When will we finally see money as what it is,
the reflection of a state of free flow...

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 21 May 2008 19:55:08 GMT

I have thought of this as the paradox of enlightenment.

Yes, me too.

Well, one of the paradoxes of 'enlightenment'.

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://prgsmff.gaia.com — Wed, 21 May 2008 04:30:55 GMT

I have a few thoughts on this.

First, I want to refer to psychotherapy. Psychotherapy does not work for everybody. It usually works best for people willing to take a large amount of personal responsibility, not relying on a therapist to 'cure' them. It is also a very important aspect of psychotherapy that the client pay the therapist. I can think of several reasons this is important: giving away resources to someone to help you makes you value the time and services more, paying someone puts the power and responsibility into your hands, paying shows your gratitude/appreciation to the therapist (and by extension to yourself), etc.

Second, regarding enlightened people making money, I agree with the poster that said truly enlightened people don't tend to teach spirituality. I have thought of this as the paradox of enlightenment. Enlightenment is a solitary transcendence, as far as I know. When a person reaches enlightenment, they see the perfection in the world. What could they possibly add by teaching things? These people would be content living out their lives in isolation on a hillside.

However there are a fair number of people who gain enlightenment and then return to worldly existence to help people. Is this desire to help people a sign that they never reached full enlightenment? As we know, enlightenment for the most part is not something that can be directly 'taught'. In order to try to teach people, the teacher must step out of true enlightenment. Why would someone do this? And if they did, wouldn't they have to shift their consciousness back to the worldly in order to teach, thereby tainting everything they teach?

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://jewdist.gaia.com — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:49:37 GMT

Because we live in a Western culture, in which all institutions, political, religious, educational, believe that throwing money at "problems" will eliminate them.

It's part of our cultural construct that money solves problems.

Actually, it's people that solve problems.

We're all aware of the notorious scandals of our biggest "charitable" organizations. If you're not aware, email me and I'll "enlighten" you.

I refuse to give money to people I don't know, especially when they have Paypal accounts.

On the other hand, I will work on a one-to-one basis, face-to-face, with somebody I encounter who needs my help.

Watch out for anybody who promises "enlightenment" or anything else for that matter, including redemption, eternal life, voices from the afterlife, or immortality or worse yet, solving problems you haven't seen with your own eyes.

Yup, a cynic, but an "enlightened" one.

Peace,

Sally

Re: enlightenment for sale ...

Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:48:21 GMT

Wow ...and such places are supposed to be so rare as to be virtually non-existant!

I guess I have always been less than concerned what others thought of whatever I did, so whether or not my choices were "approved" of has not been a great influnence on what I do or do not do.

I do understand that this culture is still in the "pioneering" phase of Buddhism for one...and there will be many "homesteads" that do not survive in the trials of the times.....but Zen and Buddhism were once new to China, and to Japan as well as Tibet and every place it has traveled. This is new here...but there is nothing new here.

It is radical to take a position that one will rely on only offerings for the support of their lifestyle....and one might have to willing to greatly reduce what they think of as thier lifestyle...but I think it is unfair to say such choices are not supported in this culture...I just returned from a visit to my teacher's monastery....and the Beautiful Buddha hall, and fairly large commerical kitchen/dining/residential building are quite impressive standing out there on the hill...all done one stick, one bucket of water at a time (no bank loan...no debt)........it is quite astonishing to see what can be done without charging anyone a nickel, and relying on their gratitude for your support...I suppose it would be naive to assume they got something they felt was of such value to them that they were moved to give something back....enough back so that there will always be a place on the hill where others can go ...no matter the size of thier wallets.

I have always thought that if something was of real value to me...It need not be marketed to me.....I will find out about it and go buy it. No one has to "sell" a quality product...if it is usefull and of good quality it will sell itself. People will beat a path to your door in order to buy it. I have been a salesman in the past, and I know what that involves..convincing people that they need what you have too much of...etc.... So I am always a bit skeptical when anyone in any situation is trying to sell me something...even if all it is in an idea.

Be Well

Fudo

enlightenment for sale ...

http://now.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Oct 2006 03:14:18 GMT

thank you fudo

although, a distinction i would make is that, in the west, 'enlightenment' or spiritual practise etc is not recognised as a valid life choice - unless you join a christian religion

the options for a genuine teacher to be genuinely supported by society generally are vastly different here to where spiritual practise has been a fact of life for hundreds if not thousands of years

i consider my teacher, to be genuinely 'awake' - but he lives in the west, and has to support a lifestyle according to the way the west works - rent, bills etc

payment for teaching, however, is by donation only - and there is no registration of attendees so that anyone can come regardless of what money they do or do not have

just a thought

cameron

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:18:25 GMT

I am going to assume that the implied criticisim in the topic of this post arises out of a sincere desire to find something real that is substantial and not just a cute little attack clothed in question form in an attempt to support an already forgone conclusion. (far be it from me to suggest it is)

I would assume that supposedly enlightened people form big dollar organizations for the same reason any one else would, so they can accomplish what ever goals they might have that might require funds. I do not really know, because I stay away from people who have made the choice to charge me money for teaching, thus have never been envolved in a big dollar operation directly....I suppose the Soto Shu is a big dollar operation...but they have never asked for a nickel from me, on the contrary they have offered me gifts of money for particpating in ceremonies, and attending conferences.

If the questioner is sincere in their question, I can find you a place in America where no money is asked for teaching, where you can stay for free (well, all the currency needed is to chop a little wood and carry a little water).

I traveled to Japan after earning my trip by spending a little free time helping remodel a temple building for which the teacher then paid me by taking me to Japan. I ordained before I left, so there was no charge for my three month stay in the temple ..I could have stayed there for free as long as I wanted, but other obligations called me home after three months. Any ordained Zen monk can stay for free in at least some Zen Temples in Japan...one of the perks for all the crap you have to take.

I know a couple of places where a sincere student can go....if ......they want to.....so .........these places are not all that rare...they just do not advertise in the popular media...because free loaders and lazy people are not welcome. There is a nice Buddha hall though...and residential building being built....one piece of wood for the framing, or one bucket of water for the concrete at a time.

If you are naive enough to pay for teaching, or to think enlightenment can be bought, then I suppose it is your karma to get taken to the cleaners.....perhaps If you could learn in an easier way you would have. Just because there are con men in the world, does not mean everyone is a con man, and every enlightenment a fraud. The fact that frauds exist in no way precludes the existence of honest people. It is a logical fallacy to suggest it does.

The con men all say you cannot cheat an honest man......perhaps if you have been taken to the cleaners, you might consider a little honesty yourself.....just a thought.

It takes a little work.....beyond the yellow pages or google to find out about these places...let me see........... look in an index of businesses then complain you only find businesses...hmm.

These places are not that easy to find for a reason...they do not advertise because they do not really care if you find them.....it is up to you to seek them out. If you cannot be bothered to put forth a little effort to find them .....they cannot be bothered with teaching you....it is the first minimal hurdle to overcome, the first gate to the temple.

Guess you all failed the first test. Pardon me if I look for my guidance from someone who passed it.

Be Well

Fudo

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://go.gaia.com — Sat, 02 Sep 2006 07:25:59 GMT

Money may require wisdom, to be.

Wisdom, however, has no need of money, to be. It was before money. And after, it still is.

"Money" is mock resources. For it is only a mere uncessary measurement of material worth.

Simply, one can form their own understanding of worth toward resources without the need of dead rulers.

And lets find the question Bill asked witty.

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://now.gaia.com — Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:02:26 GMT

i love that

'psychic affluenza'

beautiful

cameron

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

http://sahajanath.gaia.com — Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:28:10 GMT

The simplest answer may be "chop wood & carry water", even if you are making $$ to pay someone else to do it!

Otherwise, I would question how enlightened some of these people are. The "new age" (rhymes with "sewage") is terribly materialistic under all the rainbow crystal stuff. Another example of spiritual materialism or psychic affluenza. There's a market, and the best part is there's no authority governing what you can charge so if you can get people to buy your claim...

Your cynicism may vary...

Re: Teachers/Teaching

http://herenow.gaia.com — Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:19:11 GMT

Hi Cameron...

I've left this response from you open on my desktop since you sent it...wanted to sit with it for a while. There's not much to say at the moment (though there could be later...) other than thanks for the reply :)

Peace,
Scott

Re: Teachers/Teaching

http://now.gaia.com — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:54:45 GMT

scott,

there is no finishing, this is true

papaji's reference to 'fully cooked' was to someone who was no longer trapped in the idea of separateness

it was not a suggestion that everything simply ends, or that there is some fabled point at which there is no more

only a year before Papaji's death he said "i know that i know what krishna knew - and i know there's more"

Is there a suggestion in my experience that I am fully cooked? It would appear so.

But this does not mean that there is a scale and that I am further along it [or up it or down it].

It simply means that in this awareness of myself as awareness, there is no wanting, or grabbing or desiring.

and whenever there are ripples in the body mind, there is a way of being with them that is qualitatively different than previously - it is possible to be with great discomfit without experiencing it as uncomfortable

Words are dangerous when they are taken as static - what is spoken or written is relevant only at the point in time it was written.

Thus the challenge that many have when reading discourses - they make teachings of them where no teachings were intended.

It is not possible to have it all figured out. Nor is that what this pod is about. Figuring it out suggests there is something to be figured out. In this, there is nothing.

This pod was simply created as an offering of a virtual satsang - somewhere for us to hold the space for each other's deepening enquiry, and to experience an ever deeper awareness of one's self as awareness through being here in this way together

if the essence of this comes through the words, i would not give too much attention to the words themselves

cameron

Re: Teachers/Teaching

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:45:17 GMT

If you stop all manifestations of ego, you'll be dead fairly soon.

Of starvation, at least.

Not that there's anything wrong with being dead.

But there is a choice to be made.

Does the apparent entity maintain enough ego function to continue to exist, or not?

The choice is yours to make, and there is only a little cost and shame in making the choice to live out the days left for the apparent body.

The impurity is bearable. Mostly. ;-}

Teachers/Teaching

http://herenow.gaia.com — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 07:16:07 GMT

How do you know that it's true that someone who is enlightened wouldn't offer teachings?

The reference to Papaji's comments on beings being "fully cooked" etc was an interesting one...though as one still walking the illusionary path, I'd prefer mine fully cooked (like my burgers medium-rare though)

Who can say for sure that another is "fully cooked"? Seems like there would still be a witnesser there to make that subjective observation....still very much an "I-thought" present to make those comments.

If All is infiniteness, then there is no "finishing"....that would be another illusion, no?

Some of these conversations on this forum seem like a competition...have all y'all really got it all figured out? Living as the Presence in every single area of your lives? How about you Cameron? Would you consider yourself fully-liberated at this point? Nirvikalpa? All the seeds of egoity completely burned with no possible return to egoity?

Peace,

Scott

Re: what price enlightenment?

http://folksoul.gaia.com — Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:21:50 GMT

there is a new pod that is designed for people to discuss the good and the bad of gurus, spiritual teachers, personal development organizations, and one's own concerns and challenges as a teacher... the pod is at this link ...join us if you would like.

-d

Re: number 36, you're nirvana is ready ....

http://Arhat-Ra.gaia.com — Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:59:15 GMT

Birthday Wishes, Cameron!

Wishing you all things good as you begin your new year!

Alex

number 36, you're nirvana is ready ....

http://now.gaia.com — Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:14:29 GMT

would you like fries with that?

cameron

ps: supersize me

Re: what price enlightenment?

http://Arhat-Ra.gaia.com — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:25:44 GMT

Excellant comments, Bill!

"Judgement" versus "distinction". "Judgement" versus "analysis".

This is the crux of it all, isn't it??

Not just the restraints of lanuage; the message within the language.

Within the field of each of those words is the vibrational value of duality.

Isn't our task to rise above duality and know only ONE?

To be aware of mind, however not of mind?

That's really a question, by the way. Not just retorical.

Re: what price enlightenment?

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:13:00 GMT

Lexi, you do raise a valid question.

The "sleeping" and "awake" metaphor is an old one, but just because it's old, that doesn't make it the right metaphor to use.

This is one of the reasons why persons who are enlightened, nearly enlightened, or who have taken the vow of enlightenment, should probably talk more.

Language is "sticky", and it has it's own momentum. Words and ideas will stick around, even if they are no longer optimum.

Another good question you raise, is the question of 'judgement".

"Judgement" versus "distinction". "Judgement" versus "analysis".

Re: what price enlightenment?

http://Arhat-Ra.gaia.com — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:02:58 GMT

Erik,

I actually want nothing.
Long ago I released from want.

I expect nothing.
therefore anything I recieve is a gift.

Each gift brings a new experience to learn from.
It is how Self reveals.

I learn by observing emotions as they arise.

I do not perceive others as sleeping or anything else. Only where they are at the moment.

I strive not to prejudice them by my thinking. Not always successful, however, from this, too, I learn.

If the foot of this body falls asleep is it not still part of me and my experience??? I can not "slap" it into wakefullness....only allow it to awaken as it will.

Do I find joy in its awakening?? YES!

However, can I find joy in its sleeping?

It is as it is.

I find joy in that I have a foot to fall asleep.

To do otherwise is to exert my will over the Divine.

I find no offense.

No one CAN offend me.

Only themselves.

I allow myself to be witness.

Spirit allows me to See.

Love & LIght,
Lex