Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations?

This is, I think, one of the central puzzles of supposed “Enlightenment”.

Why do people who claim enlightenment form organizations that, looked at objectively, function like churches and businesses obsessed with making money?

These organizations are actually one of the strongest arguments one can find that enlightenment is bullshit. That it is just another religious scam.

That the last thing “enlightened” people care about is being true to the traditional principles of enlightenment.

So, why does it happen?

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

an interesting question

often, it seems, the organisations are created by devotees if one considers the infrastructure that exists around some 'saints'

although, in the case of gangaji, the structure of a foundation was created to ensure she is available and to disseminate dvds and video tapes of satsang into prisons etc

in that application, it seems to be simply a pragmatic option

isaac, my teacher, offers satsang by donation - always has - and seems to do well financially - but without any intention to do so 

i offer satsang by 'recommended donation' - without any strictures on it - and don't do so well financially - but have a marketing company that supports me 

at the end of the day, i guess it comes down to a distinction i would make between being 'awake' and being genuinely 'enlightened'

the west has spawned a great number of 'teachers' in recent times [myself among them, seemingly] from the stream of self-enquiry

and i would suggest that the quality of the teacher can be determined by the quality of the teaching

in short, someone who is 'teaching' is unlikely to be genuinely enlightened - regardless of what publication, website, seminar series, retreat or practise they are seen to be associated with

all teachings are of the mind - all ideas begin and end in the mind - so wherever there is a story being told, it's more likely to be someone who has woken up, than someone who is 'fully cooked' as papaji used to say

as for the traditional principles of enlightenment - i guess that presumes that enlightenment has principles

sri prabubad [i know i spelled that incorrectly] who founded the modern krisna movement, once said if you have to give people meat to get them to eat prasad,  give them meat

cameron

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

“Traditional principles of enlightenment” was not particularly well formulated - but I felt it communicated well enough to leave it as it was.

Should we include right speech, right action, right livelihood as “traditional principles”, or are they rendered moot by enlightenment, allowing any form of livelihood to the “guru”?

To slightly reformulate the question, is 'enlightenment” a form of religion, to be used for the business of religion, selling icons and whatnot?

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

so enlightened people don't need money anymore? whatever happened to chop wood, carry water?

methinks there is some misunderstanding upon what “enlightened” really means.

 in the west, we tend to make that term something special, something fancy, some which we currently are not. have you questioned whether that is actually true?

“one of the strongest arguments one can find that enlightenment is bullshit.” so making money = ego serving delusional people?

….don't you make a paycheck? don't most of us working stiffs? lol

 the concept of poverty consciousness is one of the greatest delusions  the west has put on “truly spiritual people”. like one cannot be someone who has reached great awakenings and earn a living teaching others at the same time! so the Messiah had to have a day job otherwise he really wasn't the Son of God- just profiting by having a place to stay, food to eat and a gaggle of followers?

now, granted, there are people who run charades and claim to have knowledge and powers the rest of us don't manifest daily.  but if they make a ton of money, that has no bearing as to whether they *actually* have an understanding or not- that just means they are able to gain people's trust and they are rewarded with a form of transferable energy- money. yes, we do have institutions where the followers seem to almost worship someone- but if you talk to the leader, do you think that's what they really wanted? and if you still think that's what the leader really wanted (money), does that tarnish the message? do you think the messenger must be a “pure” source? 

so in your mind what does “being true to the traditional principles of enlightenment.” mean to you that these people who make money aren't adhering to? maybe they are merely continuing life, like the rest of us, among us and not below or above us. enlightened or not, you still have to breathe, eat and have a place to sleep. 

maybe your real question you're asking is why do they need to make such a large percentage of money from what  “should” be free?  do you feel these people who make a large amount of money taking advantage of others? what if suddenly they didn't make money- would that make them more “spiritual”? more authentic in your eyes? so are you saying if someone is truly spiritual, they would insist on others not giving them an exchange of energy? do you feel the people who follow him/her are being harmed by believing in their message? what do you feel people should do if they feel a friend is being harmed by believing in something we don't relate to?

i've seen your passionate position that money and one's spiritual attainment are diametrically opposed. i was wondering what happened in your experiences to cause you to have this strong mindset- i'll bet it's fascinating! :) i've worked for very large “spiritual” organizations and have experienced the opposite- that when you get right down to it, either a)the original person never meant to have an entire cosmology built around their ideas b) there is no contradiction by being a spiritual teacher and making a living at it. one's motivation, which cannot be easily discerned by others at the surface, has much more to do with it.  

what's on the surface may not be all that is… :)

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

Money and enlightenment aren't in opposition - I don't think I've said anything suggesting that.

Oh - right - I used $$$ as a shorthand for money-making cultic organizations. Now I can see why you would think I'm connecting money with enlightenment.

What I'm asking is, what is the relationship between enligtenment and personality cult organizations, or, to use another description, religious or churchlike organizations focused on the business of religion?

You don't have to read very much about the histories of persons claimed to be enlightened to notice a striking feature - the tendency for corrupt, money-making and people-exploiting organizations to form, often formed and run by the 'enlightened' person.

This is something that needs to be examined and discussed. Especially by people who think they are enlightened, or close to being enlightened.

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

For whatever the reason, it must be in the karmic debt (no pun intended)  of those involved to need to experience the $$$/enlightenment thing.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be ocurring.  How can we know what lessons the Universe is providing? 

i know from my own experience…..Money,…… abundance or lack of…..is an easy ego trap to become “caught” in.   It is far better for me to ask of myself from where do these questions arise and why. 

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

I'm not referring to the question of why un-enlightened people are attracted to such organizations - the answer to that is straightforward and obvious.

I'm asking why do 'enlightened' people do it, and allow it to happen?

So, are you saying it's the enlightened person's karma to create corrupt money making organizations?

Or that the enlightened person is “teaching”, or burning money karma, by doing so?

Certainly some gurus accused of operating corrupt organizations have claimed this to be so.

Perhaps it's true. Certainly it's true that an enlightened person is not a moral person.


 

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

***So, are you saying it's the enlightened person's karma to create corrupt money making organizations?

That's pretty much what I'm saying.  Now, if this is the case, the question becomes if an individual is enlightened does s/he still experience karma?  My inner knowing Self says if an individual has dibs on being enlightened there should be some example of walking the talk.  A “by their fruits you shall know them” senario.

***Perhaps it's true. Certainly it's true that an enlightened person is not a moral person.

That then begs the issue of subjective observation.  What appears moral and noncorrupt to one may be completely opposite to another.

So it would seem enlightenment is subjective; contigent upon the person observing.

Perhaps it's best not to set forth the claim or have others set it for you and simply be known for actions alone.

To my understanding, our Divine Inheritance, so to speak, is abundance.  It's our choices and our ignorance, as Christ and the Buddha have said, that keep this awareness either apparent or obscured. 

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

i wanted to return to this statement about an enlightened person not being a moral person - I got the impression you might not have understood what I was saying.

What I meant was that “morals” are societal standards of behavior, usually obeyed because of fear of consequences or at minimum social disapproval.

Enlightenment frees the individual from the imprinted and trained fears of social punishment. One is aware that social punishments can still be suffered, and that there may be costs for actions and choices, but one is free, or lets say significantly free-er, to choose to act contrary to moral social codes.

But, enlightened persons will tend to be _ethical_. Enlightenment will tend to produce a person who is deeply compassionate, and aware of the states of others.

So, what I meant when I said that enlightened persons are not moral persons, is that enlightened persons act from ethical perceptions and choices, not from moral social obedience.

what price enlightenment?

hi all

have been busy with the business of business - not the business of enlightenment

this entire topic about money is certainly gaining momentum in regards to the apparently awakened life

so, if money is a medium of exchange, it then presumes that there is something to be exchanged, or bought.

i would suggest, therefore, that if the true teacher teaches nothing, there is nothing to be paid for

certainly, it strikes me as logistically viable to ask for assistance in maintaining ones life in the world, but only an unenlightened person would consider that anything they have to say has relatively more or less value than anything else

as such, i request donations for satsang, because there are costs associated to it - and when it comes time to run retreats etc, there are flights and accomodation to pay for, time taken away from business etc

but if one makes enlightenment ones  business one must reasonablty ask the question “how committed are you to my freedom, if your lifestyle depends upon me continuing to be a student?”

cameron 

Re: what price enlightenment?

” but if one makes enlightenment ones  business one must reasonablty ask the question “how committed are you to my freedom, if your lifestyle depends upon me continuing to be a student?” ”

Exactly so.

And I have thought a lot about how horrible it would be, to be a teacher with a money making organization, constantly being tempted to lie, to say the encouraging thing, the soothing thing, instead of saying the harder things that have to be said. Just to earn your daily bread, and maybe to feed and protect those who depended on you.

It's something of a paradox, for I had spent my whole life in training to be a teacher. It was what I expected enlightenment would allow me to do, in the best possible way.

I think of it as “the content problem”, with the word 'content' in this used in the sense that a publisher uses it - the words, the ideas, the experiences of near-enlightenment and enlightenment become 'content', to be packaged, exchanged, sold, and consumed.

I'm still contemplating “the content problem”.

Re: what price enlightenment?

If a teacher percieves lack, that is what s/he will garner.  Likewise, if a teacher percieves abundance there will be abundance.

If one is truly enlightened, one should be have the gnostic knowing all needs will be meet regardless of worldly appearances.

I know a yoga teacher in India who teaches for two dollars US currancy.  Not two dollars a class, two dollars a month………….unlimited classes……. and he teaches five classes a day.  Here in the US, yoga classes cost and average of $15.00 per class.  We asked him how he and his family could possibly survive by only asking two dollars per month.  His response was “my belly is full.”

How eloquent is that!!  “My belly is full.”   To have that much faith to know the Universe will provide whatever one needs whenever one needs it.  To me, my friends, that is Enlightenment.

When one has that much faith, there is no temptation to lie or misconstrue truth.

Love & Light
Lex

Re: what price enlightenment?

Lex, can you think of any US or western teachers that would be good examples of teachers running ethical teaching organizations that make money?

It would be very interesting to take a closer look at such teachers. I'm sure it would be possible, even easy, to build ethical teaching organizations, but they do seem rare.

Curiously enough, faith plays no real role in my models of enlightenment. I think faith is erased by enlightenment, as no longer of any real importantance.

I don't know much about currently living teachers in India, I couldn't tell you wether what they teach is worthwhile, or wether it would be worth it to fly to india for two dollar a month classes.

Re: what price enlightenment?

Regarding faith and enlightenment:  I feel they walk hand in hand, at least personally.  I fall short, daily, of living a fully enlightened life.  I struggle with unconditional love.  I struggle with refraining from rendering judgement.  I struggle with befriending my ego and recognizing its effects in my life.  I struggle with living in an awarness of Spirit.

So I have faith that not matter how far I fall from Truth, I will have the capacity to try again.  And not tomorrow, or within a few hours; but imediatley and instantly…….. becoming redeemed and reconciled fully  to Truth once again thru faith.

“You must make every effort to support your faith with
goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with
self-control, and
self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and
godliness with
mutual affection, and mutual affection with love.”–2 Peter 1:5-7

Bill, I'm sure there are several teachers in the west who teach and run ethical organizations.  Hopefully, my studio & the studios of my fellow yoga teachers are some.  

Granted, independantly, our studios occupy a niche market,  however, the method we teach is globaly known and recognized.  And the Iyengar method is charged with teaching yogic philosphy.  Asana is only one-eighth of the work.

   Are you equating fame and success with ethics??  


Regarding current teachers in India:  Naturally, I hold in high esteem, B.K.S. Iyengar.  He is my teacher's teacher and therefore my guruji.  Mr. Iyengar's teachings are best visited in  his book, Light on Life.   He also wrote what is considered, by most,  to be the “Bible” on yoga, Light on Yoga.  And he wrote a treatise on the yoga sutras of Patanjali which is excellant.  It is Light on the Yoga Sutras, for anyone interested. 

Re: what price enlightenment?

Well, to be truthful, faith has never been particularly important to me, so it's possible it's idiosyncratic to me that faith is made irrelevant by enlightenment.

When I was younger I did years of Bhakti in various forms, but all those prayers to god required no faith - I could feel god just as certainly as I could feel sunlight on a cool day. It wasn't about faith, bit direct inner experience.

But faith in god, and feeling god directly, doesn't guarantee god actually exists.

What I'm saying is, if faith is important to you, and not important to me, maybe that's just diversity of being in action. ;-}

“Are you equating fame and success with ethics?? ”

Well first, we should say 'enlightenment ethics', not just ethics in general. Two different critters.

And no, fame and success are not directly questionable within enlightenment ethics.

But, promising enlightenment for money, even when only by implication, or indirectly, _and then not delivering adequately_, that would definitely be unethical within the ethical constraints that tend to be generated by enlightenment.

If you can promise it and deliver it, it could be ethical, or it might not - enlightenment for a person not ready could be a horrible thing.

Like I said, I think it would be possible to build organizations that teach effectively and ethically, and don't rip people off, but it seems quite rare. Organizations seem to be inherently corruptible.

But, as long as we aren't talking about this, and asking penetrating questions, corrupt organizations will continue to be the norm. 

Re: what price enlightenment?

Hi All-

     I have been realized for only a short amount of time respective to all of Your collective awakening (Cameron and Bill).  I do not feel as if I need to set up shop and hand out freedom and liberation for a stipend but I do feel a heart wrenching compassion motivated by the percieved pain of Others to dispatch what I have realized.  I realized enlightenment as a Security Guard if You can believe that!  My posts are perfect for it.  They give me a four-wheel drive truck and send Me out into the wilderness by “Myself” for hours on end and so I sit lotus fashion in the bed of the truck using the Redwoods as My Mandala: the song of birds as My Mantra: the scent of flowers as My Offering.  My wife and I make a near six figure income combined.  Albeit a lower financial status would still not be a motivation for leasing out what is freely given.  Jesus was a carpentar.  Buddha left a rich background and after realization attained the favor of kings.  Everybody has a day job.  The Stateless State is not the job.  It is the Existence.  As The Pure Witness and Unseen Seer, the idea of an occupation of professional saint is just another distracting experience of the perpetual game of objectificated make-believe.  I will play to feed the vehicle, but I won't pimp out the Dharma.
  
     Another thing I think Westerners in general misconstrue is the idea that enlightenment means the end of suffering or One is somehow miraculously weened off of the world of the Samsaric tit.  Not true.  Samsara or Maya or Babylon, whatever You want to call it is always there but the difference is, it no longer threatens You as a reality in an Awakened state.  You still have pain.  You are bigger than that.  You still have anquish.  You are bigger than that.  The body will die.  You are bigger than that, etc. ad infinitum.  The point being, is that with this preconcieved notion of what enlightenment is, held in the collective psyche of so Many, alot of the ignorant will pay big bucks for something that They already and have always had.  From and enlightened standpoint,  taking advantage of this ignorance I do not think begets right action.  Sometimes I think the correct definition of right action is actually the courage enough to do nothing.  Yet I still feel compelled to slap the faces of the sleeping…. 

     I am new at it and I see enlightenment still brings the idea that learning never stops, ever.  Expansion is eternal and I Am Eternity. 

BEing,
 
Erik

Re: what price enlightenment?

“Sometimes I think the correct definition of right action is actually the courage enough to do nothing.”.

Ain't that the truth! ;-}

I don't think of it as “courage”, tho, myself, altho I recognise what you are trying to communicate. I think of it as 'understanding'. To understand that the optimum choice, of all the choices, is to choose to do nothing.

Altho, 'doing nothing' isn't really 'doing nothing'. It is actually something else.

It is something more like “waiting”. Waiting until the time comes when it is no longer most right to do nothing. 

” Yet I still feel compelled to slap the faces of the sleeping….”

Ha ha ha ha ha!

The sleeping are blessed. Really, they aren't any trouble.

It's the half awake you gotta watch your step around. So easy to hurt, so easy to un-intentionally mislead. And fairly likely to attack.

Re: what price enlightenment?

By what authority does one judge another as sleeping?

No one can know the inner sanctuary of another, save God. 

Therefore,  to do nothing is not courage, it is wisdom.  Lacking in wisdom, one has judgement.  Within judgement, there is ego.  and ego holds self in higher esteem than Self. 

So does it take wisdom to be courageous or courage to have wisdom? 

The first Law of Spirit is ahimsa.  Christ asked who would cast the first stone.  Judgement would seem to be weighty stones.

To be fully is to be wise within the communion of Spirit.  To  proclaim another as sleeping is to usurp that person's grace, to deem him/her less than oneself. 

I really don't understand that line of thought in regards to enlightenment. 

Who amoung us knows the heart of another?
And aren't all God incarnate?

To slap the face of the sleeping?? 

One would slap the face of God?

If one does not see God within the midst of us can one fully and truly be?

Re: what price enlightenment?

Now, see, that's why you shouldn't go around slapping the sleeping - it's not very polite.

Alexandrite, there's nothing wrong with sleeping. It's a profound state, a state of blessed purity and glorious poise.

We've already said, everybody is already enlightened.

And talking about 'asleep', 'half-awake', and 'awake' is all bullshit, a weak and sloppy way of speaking. We all know this.

But, we are already all in the mud here, simply by deciding to speak. As soon as we opened our mouths or touched the keyboard we were impure.

We are being _intentionally_ impure. Just so we can talk. Trying to talk is the choice we made.

We aren't picking out actual persons, and saying, “you are X”, and “you are Y”. That _would_ be impolite. And the awful fate of the guru.

As for the other thing - well, I have slapped the face of god. God slapped me back. It seemed like good harmless fun at the time.

Re: what price enlightenment?

Bil

Re: what price enlightenment?

Bill,

I know we're working in restraints using language as a method of communication. 

What I'm addressing is the ideal at large as it's beening presented here.  The “pigeon-hole” concept.  Labels.

I'm suggesting a criterion shift toward a wider lens of vision which views the presence of God manifest regardless of mayanic presentation.

No sleeping.  No half-awake.  No awake.  No enlightened.  No labels.

I'm suggesting accepting all as it is.

AND exploring OUR response to it!!

How does the Seer respond?  And why?

Re: what price enlightenment?

This is actually a very rich and fascinatingly complicated topic.

For instance, do you recognize that you yourself are labeling Eric and I, for using these momentary labels of 'sleeping', 'half-awake', & 'awake'?

Your labeling of us is implied rather than explicit, but it is still happening.

Yet, I undertand that you don't mean to cause harm by labeling me - you are just trying, within the limits imposed by this tool of language, to express a problem that you yourself are working on.

There is only one way to avoid labeling, and that is to be silent. One should not even move, because movement, even the flicker of an eyelid, is communication.

Believe me, I contemplated the desireability of perfect silence. It was so - what is the best word to expresss this - let's call it “alluring”. (The word 'alluring' doesn't even begin to express the beauty of the silence…)

I could have stayed in the bliss of silence forever. The choice was there. I loved the silence, the way a drowning man loves the thought of a breath of air.

I can re-enter the bliss of silence at any moment.

But, I have chosen the mud of the world, the lie of speech. (We can discuss why I made that choice at some future time.)

I know, with total certainty, that to speak is to lie. But, especially here in virtual space, speaking, typing words, is the only way to talk. And like I said earlier, we've already decided to talk.

—-

Now, you say, “accepting all as it is”. 

But, you express disapproval of the label “sleeping”; you would rather not accept that label and the ideas and observations it tries to express.

Let me ask you this - what label would you prefer? And why would you prefer it? Is it permissible to mention that there are people who don't know they are enlightened?

—-

This is just the barest beginning of talking about this question - so, I'm not finished, I haven't even tried to express all the details of this problem, there is much more to be said. So don't worry, we are just getting started. ;-}

Re: what price enlightenment?

Bill,

Your are correct in  noting  that I was rendering judgement…backhanded as it was..it is still judgement.

Judgement is my HUGE thing right now. 

What can I learn from the positions of judgement I find myself in?   This is the task before me and it seems no matter  how vigilent I think I'm being, judgement sneaks in thru the back door. 

Thank you for your astute observation!

Nameste`
Lex

PS

I guess if pressed, I would  have to say I prefer no labels…..however once I inject “I” into that statement, I invite ego and ergo judgement to enter into the process and therefore defeat it before it begins.

so I don't know how to answer that question.

One of my core issues concerning judgement is coming to terms with embracing everyone I encounter where they are and loving the God force within them unconditionally…….no matter what!!

  The other thing I'm struggling with is to stop being a “fixer”!  I don't need to run to the rescue and try to “fix” things every time I turn around.  I'm not Mother to the world although at some subconscious….probably karmic…..reason, I seem to think I am.  My mission this summer is to let things be………simply be.

How am I doin' so far……………LOL………….don't answer!!

Oh yeah, and the other summer project is to simplifiy at every level.
Silence would be real good for that!

Re: what price enlightenment?

Lexi, you do raise a valid question.

The “sleeping” and “awake” metaphor is an old one, but just because it's old, that doesn't make it the right metaphor to use.

This is one of the reasons why persons who are enlightened, nearly enlightened, or who have taken the vow of enlightenment, should probably talk more.

Language is “sticky”, and it has it's own momentum. Words and ideas will stick around, even if they are no longer optimum.  

Another good question you raise, is the question of 'judgement”.

“Judgement” versus “distinction”. “Judgement” versus “analysis”.

Re: what price enlightenment?

Excellant comments, Bill!

“Judgement” versus “distinction”. “Judgement” versus “analysis”.

Re: what price enlightenment?

Hello Alexandrite-

You said:
I know we're working in restraints using language as a method of communication. 

What I'm addressing is the ideal at large as it's beening presented here.  The “pigeon-hole” concept.  Labels.

I'm suggesting a criterion shift toward a wider lens of vision which views the presence of God manifest regardless of mayanic presentation.

No sleeping.  No half-awake.  No awake.  No enlightened.  No labels.

I'm suggesting accepting all as it is.

AND exploring OUR response to it!!

How does the Seer respond?  And why?
    
       Sorry about the language.  What words can I use?  Words are illusions twice removed.  First You see the illusion then You commit the second act of insanity by naming it.  Doubly confusing.  When One speaks of enlightenment, One can only speak in paradoxes, contradictions and puzzles.  One cannot name the Nameless.  It is beyond experience.  It is the Originator of all experiences. So with the best of that ability, I will try to answer Your questions.

By what authority does one judge another as sleeping?

By Mine/Yours!  We are the collective Many of the One.  One Being, Many Vehicles.  A sleeping Being is actually quite easy to determine.  Beings who are not realized all exude a common symptom either consciously or subconsciously.  The Non-Actualized have a tendency to be in various and sundry states of Becoming, Seeking, or Searching.  You cannot become what You already are.  Impossible.  You may seek enlightenment.  And by seeking, I promise You will never find it.  You are already enlightened.  You may not realize it.  The ego uses “seeking” to try to accomplish another impossiblity: to validate it's existence.   A distraction to be sure and one that it uses to try to accomplish one more impossibility: Your death.  There is no death.  There is no life.  You are the Beginningless Unending.  The Uncreate.  The Great Unborn. 

No one can know the inner sanctuary of another, save God. 

This is correct.  Realize this. 

Therefore,  to do nothing is not courage, it is wisdom.  Lacking in wisdom, one has judgement.  Within judgement, there is ego.  and ego holds self in higher esteem than Self. 

Here is a little theory that came in direct response to this matter and it is based on this phrase:  When Mind appears, things are made and thus experience is established/manifested.  There may be some minor holes in this, but the general idea is there.  Everything written is a lie anyway.  If a lie wakes You up, so be it.  What's more, You wrote this!  All of it!

Mind And The Law Of Experience

The 6 levels of experience are as follows:

1) Motion
     Mind is in a constant state of movement

2) Conceptualization
     Movement begets creativity.  Ideas and thoughts are then made manifest.

3) Judgement
     The thing created is categorized.  As long as Mind is percieved, Judgement is 
     impossible to escape.  And by disagreeing One has judged. 

4) Emotion
     A feeling is tagged to the category of thing created.  Emotion is always “attached to”
     and usually the “catalyst of” the thing created.

5) Hierarchy
     A level or order is given to the category of thing created.  By disagreeing One has
     established a hierarchy by way of thinking One's idea is either better or worse.

6) Time
     A sense of passage is applied to the over-all experience.  Using the information
     to establish events not yet transpired, thus chasing the Past with an uncreated
     Future.

     The Law of Experience is inescapable until the Mind is Witnessed as a concept in and of Itself at which point manifestation no longer occurs.  Mind is uncreated, thus Enlightenment.  The final barrier between the Seen and the Seer is dissolved.  Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.


So does it take wisdom to be courageous or courage to have wisdom? 

Both are the same sentence in the form of an ego death or path to it.  Dissolving mind takes courage.  Wisdom is the by-product. 

The first Law of Spirit is ahimsa.  Christ asked who would cast the first stone.  Judgement would seem to be weighty stones.

Judgement is inescapable until the Mind is dissolved.

To be fully is to be wise within the communion of Spirit.  To  proclaim another as sleeping is to usurp that person's grace, to deem him/her less than oneself. 

The greatest act of Compassion is to help Another remove the Veil of Forgetfullnes from Their eyes through skillful means so as to restore that Being to Their already existent glory.  Once One is awakened, it is heart breaking to witness the sadness in Another who believes the dream is real. 

I really don't understand that line of thought in regards to enlightenment. 

Who amoung us knows the heart of another?
And aren't all God incarnate?

You have contradicted Yourself here.  You would know full well Whom is sleeping if You were realized fully as God.  You Are.  Realize it.

To slap the face of the sleeping?? 

One would slap the face of God?

We all have many times.  'Tis Human to believe in separateness and duality.  Anything done to Another is ultimately done to Yourself and there is absolutely no exaggeration in that statement what-so-ever.   Some wake up with a whisper, Others the stick.  Enlightenment does not give a flying hoot how You get there, just get there.  Any vehicle will do.  Any mind set will do.  Any technique is valid. 

If one does not see God within the midst of us can one fully and truly be?

Everything You are looking at is You looking at It!  Your Original Face.  Just this.  Who is reading these words now?  Who is asking the questions now?  Who is possibly offended by the words They are reading now?  What You are thinking does not matter.  find the Thinker and then I call You Master!

I responded this way because that is what You wanted. Game Over.

Re: what price enlightenment?

Erik,

I actually want nothing. 
Long ago I released from want. 

I expect nothing.  
therefore anything I recieve is a gift.

Each gift brings a new experience to learn from.
It is how Self reveals.

I learn by observing emotions as they arise.

I do not perceive others as sleeping or anything else.  Only where they are at the moment. 

I strive not to prejudice them by my thinking.  Not always successful, however, from this, too, I learn.

If the foot of this body falls asleep is it not still part of me and my experience???  I can not “slap” it into wakefullness….only allow it to awaken as it will. 

Do I find joy in its awakening??  YES!

However, can I find joy in its sleeping? 

It is as it is. 

I find joy in that I have a foot to fall asleep.

To do otherwise is to exert my will over the Divine. 

I find no offense. 

No one CAN offend me. 

Only themselves.

I allow myself to be witness. 

Spirit allows me to See.

Love & LIght,
Lex

Re: what price enlightenment?

there is a new pod that is designed for people to discuss the good and the bad of gurus, spiritual teachers, personal development organizations, and one's own concerns and challenges as a teacher… the pod is at this link …join us if you would like. 

-d 

number 36, you're nirvana is ready ....

would you like fries with that?

cameron

ps: supersize me 

Re: number 36, you're nirvana is ready ....

Birthday Wishes, Cameron!

Wishing you all things good as you begin your new year!

Alex

Teachers/Teaching

How do you know that it's true that someone who is enlightened wouldn't offer teachings? 

The reference to Papaji's comments on beings being “fully cooked” etc was an interesting one…though as one still walking the illusionary path, I'd prefer mine fully cooked (like my burgers medium-rare though)

Who can say for sure that another is “fully cooked”?  Seems like there would still be a witnesser there to make that subjective observation….still very much an “I-thought” present to make those comments.  

If All is infiniteness, then there is no “finishing”….that would be another illusion, no?

Some of these conversations on this forum seem like a competition…have all y'all really got it all figured out?  Living as the Presence in every single area of your lives?   How about you Cameron?  Would you consider yourself fully-liberated at this point?  Nirvikalpa?  All the seeds of egoity completely burned with no possible return to egoity? 

Peace,

Scott 

Re: Teachers/Teaching

If you stop all manifestations of ego, you'll be dead fairly soon.

Of starvation, at least.

Not that there's anything wrong with being dead.

But there is a choice to be made.

Does the apparent entity maintain enough ego function to continue to exist, or not?

The choice is yours to make, and there is only a little cost and shame in making the choice to live out the days left for the apparent body.

The impurity is bearable. Mostly. ;-}

Re: Teachers/Teaching

scott,

there is no finishing, this is true

papaji's reference to 'fully cooked' was to someone who was no longer trapped in the idea of separateness

it was not a suggestion that everything simply ends, or that there is some fabled point at which there is no more

only a year before Papaji's death he said “i know that i know what krishna knew - and i know there's more”

Is there a suggestion in my experience that I am fully cooked? It would appear so.

But this does not mean that there is a scale and that I am further along it [or up it or down it].

It simply means that in this awareness of myself as awareness, there is no wanting, or grabbing or desiring.

and whenever there are ripples in the body mind, there is a way of being with them that is qualitatively different than previously - it is possible to be with great discomfit without experiencing it as uncomfortable

Words are dangerous when they are taken as static - what is spoken or written is relevant only at the point in time it was written.

Thus the challenge that many have when reading discourses - they make teachings of them where no teachings were intended.

It is not possible to have it all figured out. Nor is that what this pod is about. Figuring it out suggests there is something to be figured out. In this, there is nothing.

This pod was simply created as an offering of a virtual satsang - somewhere for us to hold the space for each other's deepening enquiry, and to experience an ever deeper awareness of one's self as awareness through being here in this way together

if the essence of this comes through the words, i would not give too much attention to the words themselves

cameron

Re: Teachers/Teaching

Hi Cameron…

I've left this response from you open on my desktop since you sent it…wanted to sit with it for a while.  There's not much to say at the moment (though there could be later…) other than thanks for the reply :)

Peace,
Scott

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

The simplest answer may be “chop wood & carry water”, even if you are making $$ to pay someone else to do it!

Otherwise, I would question how enlightened some of these people are. The “new age” (rhymes with “sewage”) is terribly materialistic under all the rainbow crystal stuff. Another example of spiritual materialism or psychic affluenza. There's a market, and the best part is there's no authority governing what you can charge so if you can get people to buy your claim…

Your cynicism may vary…

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

i love that

'psychic affluenza'

beautiful

cameron

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

Money may require wisdom, to be.

Wisdom, however, has no need of money, to be. It was before money. And after, it still is.

“Money” is mock resources. For it is only a mere uncessary measurement of material worth.

Simply, one can form their own understanding of worth toward resources without the need of dead rulers.

And lets find the question Bill asked witty.

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

I am going to assume that the implied criticisim in the topic of this post arises out of a sincere desire to find something real that is substantial and not just a cute little attack clothed in question form in an attempt to support an already forgone conclusion. (far be it from me to suggest it is)

I would assume that supposedly enlightened people form big dollar organizations for the same reason any one else would, so they can accomplish what ever goals they might have that might require funds. I do not really know, because I stay away from people who have made the choice to charge me money for teaching, thus have never been envolved in a big dollar operation directly….I suppose the Soto Shu is a big dollar operation…but they have never asked for a nickel from me, on the contrary they have offered me gifts of money for particpating in ceremonies, and attending conferences.

If the questioner is sincere in their question, I can find you a place in America where no money is asked for teaching, where you can stay for free (well, all the currency needed is to chop a little wood and carry a little water).

I traveled to Japan after earning my trip by spending a little free time helping remodel a temple building  for which the teacher then paid me by taking me to Japan. I ordained before I left, so there was no charge for my three month stay in the temple ..I could have stayed there for free as long as I wanted, but other obligations called me home after three months. Any ordained Zen monk can stay for free in at least some Zen Temples in Japan…one of the perks for all the crap  you have to take.

I know a couple of places where a sincere student can go….if ……they want to…..so ………these places are not all that rare…they just do not advertise in the popular media…because free loaders and lazy people are not welcome. There is a nice Buddha hall though…and residential building being built….one piece of wood for the framing, or one bucket of water for the concrete at a time.

If you are naive enough to pay for teaching, or to think enlightenment can be bought, then I suppose it is your karma to get taken to the cleaners…..perhaps If you could learn in an easier way you would have. Just because there are con men in the world, does not mean everyone is a con man, and every enlightenment a fraud.  The fact that frauds exist in no way precludes the existence of honest people. It is a logical fallacy to suggest it does.

The con men all say you cannot cheat an honest man……perhaps if you have been taken to the cleaners, you might consider a little honesty yourself…..just a thought.

It takes a little work…..beyond the yellow pages or google to find out about these places…let me see……….. look in an index of businesses then complain you only find businesses…hmm.  

These places are not that easy to find for a reason…they do not advertise because they  do not really care if you find them…..it is up to you to seek them out. If you cannot be bothered to put forth a little effort to find them …..they cannot be bothered with teaching you….it is the first minimal hurdle to overcome, the first gate to the temple.

Guess you all failed the first test. Pardon me if I look for my guidance from someone who passed it.

Be Well

Fudo

enlightenment for sale ...

thank you fudo

although, a distinction i would make is that, in the west, 'enlightenment' or spiritual practise etc is not recognised as a valid life choice - unless you join a christian religion

the options for a genuine teacher to be genuinely supported by society generally are vastly different here to where spiritual practise has been a fact of life for hundreds if not thousands of years

i consider my teacher, to be genuinely 'awake' - but he lives in the west, and has to support a lifestyle according to the way the west works - rent, bills etc

payment for teaching, however, is by donation only - and there is no registration of attendees so that anyone can come regardless of what money they do or do not have

just a thought

cameron

Re: enlightenment for sale ...

Wow …and such places are supposed to be so rare as to be virtually non-existant!

I guess I have always been  less than concerned what others thought of whatever I did, so whether or not my choices were “approved” of has not been a great influnence on what I do or do not do.

I do understand that this culture is still in the “pioneering” phase of Buddhism for one…and there will be many “homesteads” that do not survive in the trials of the times…..but Zen and Buddhism were once new to China, and to Japan as well as Tibet and every place it has traveled. This is new here…but there is nothing new here.

It is radical to take a position that one will rely on only offerings for the support of their lifestyle….and one might have to willing to greatly reduce what they think of as thier lifestyle…but I think it is unfair to say such choices are not supported in this culture…I just returned from a visit to my teacher's monastery….and the Beautiful Buddha hall, and fairly large commerical kitchen/dining/residential building are quite impressive standing out there on the hill…all done one  stick, one bucket of water at a time (no bank loan…no debt)……..it is quite astonishing to see what can be done without charging anyone a nickel, and relying on their gratitude for your support…I suppose it would be naive to assume they got something they felt was of such value to them that they were moved to give something back….enough back so that there will always be a place on the hill where others can go …no matter the size of thier wallets.

I have always thought that if something was of real value to me…It need not be marketed to me…..I will find out about it and go buy it.  No one has to “sell” a quality product…if it is usefull and of good quality it will sell itself. People will beat a path to your door in order to buy it. I have been a salesman in the past, and I know what that involves..convincing people that they need what you have too much of…etc…. So I am always a bit skeptical when anyone in any situation is trying to sell me something…even if all it is in an idea.

Be Well

Fudo

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

Because we live in a Western culture, in which all institutions, political, religious, educational, believe that throwing money at “problems” will eliminate them.

It's part of our cultural construct that money solves problems.

Actually, it's people that solve problems.

We're all aware of the notorious scandals of our biggest “charitable” organizations. If you're not aware, email me and I'll “enlighten” you.

I refuse to give money to people I don't know, especially when they have Paypal accounts.

On the other hand, I will work on a one-to-one basis, face-to-face, with somebody I encounter who needs my help.

Watch out for anybody who promises “enlightenment” or anything else for that matter, including redemption, eternal life, voices from the afterlife, or immortality or worse yet, solving problems you haven't seen with your own eyes.

Yup, a cynic, but an “enlightened” one.

Peace,

Sally

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

I have a few thoughts on this.

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

I have thought of this as the paradox of enlightenment.

Yes, me too.

Well, one of the paradoxes of 'enlightenment'.

Re: Why do supposedly 'enlightened' people form $$$ organizations

Do an enlightened person have to think about money about something different from a flower of from a piece of shit?
I have a post about this question in my Gaia blog…
Money
Why do so many “spiritual” people think that money stinks?
When will we finally see money as what it is,
the reflection of a state of free flow…