Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Since I've spent many years pursuing both, and am a great lover of the enlightenment systems, it always surprizes me a little bit that I have come to the conclusion that…
 
1. wisdom is better than enlightenment.

Naturally, a statement like this immediately requires one to consider a minimum of three questions.

1.a. What is meant by 'wisdom'?

1.b. What is meant by 'enlightenment'?

1.c. What is meant by 'better'?

And a couple of ancillary questions, such as:

1.d  Is 'enlightenment' a form of 'wisdom'?

1.e  Is 'wisdom' a form of 'enlightenment'?

Before I somewhat idly start to address these questions, I was wondering if there was anyone who wanted to argue the opposite case, which would be…

2. enlightenment is better than wisdom.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

What are the “enlightenment systems”?

(I'm afraid I'll be sorry I asked)

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, an “enlightenment system” is any organized body of ideas and work (writing, teachers, and artwork, typically) that teaches a model and method of enlightenment.

Usually you'll find an “enlightenment system” associated with a religion and a culture and a region.

And “enlightenment systems” change over time - they evolve somewhat like living organisms do. So, each enlightenment system tends to have it's roots in some earlier system, and over time it tends to change into some new system.

And, there are 'branches' and 'trunks' for enlightenment systems, a lot like the tree diagram you would draw to show the evolution of life on earth.

For instance, the Vedas, ancient oral transmission books from India, represent one of the oldest 'trunks' of enlightenment ideas.

The vedas evolved (to oversimplify) into Yoga and Buddhism. Yoga and Buddhism are closley related, but they have a radically different idea of what enlightenment means - altho both are rooted in the vedic idea of rebirth, and freedom from rebirth.

Both Yoga and Buddhism seperate into dozens of smaller schools, and each school represents an 'enlightenment system” - an organized teaching of how to acheive enlightenment.

Now, to these eastern models have to be added the christian, judaic, and islamic models - each of these religions has an associated 'enlightenment” teaching, altho in the west the goal is not usually described as enlightenment.

Then you've got bunches of other younger systems, many of which are too young to yet be called an “enlightenment system”, but they share a lot of the qualities of am enlightenment system.

And side systems like taoism, shamanism, confucianism, and a host of other 'isms' that have some kind of enlightenment or self-development teaching, and idea of how to either perfect oneself, or free oneself.

So, basically, it's an organized group of ideas and teachings that claims to be able to produce enlightenment if followed.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

this is a perculiar question, i dont really understand the context behind it?… i was listening to an osho talk today, and someone asked him ''that he is only a beginner and asked if osho could define truth for him. ''

when osho talks,he always sounds like hes about to make a joke about something, i donno, maybe its just the accent. i noticed the same thing with george bush jr. something about the tone of his voice that makes you think hes thinking one thing while he's saying something different.

osho said, ''its good that you say that you're still a beginner–go back!'  all the people with advanced knowlege just make more trouble for themselves.

the truth is more about innocence. like how in his last days socrates is reported to have said, 'i know one thing, i know that i know nothing'

but bill i guess ill try to answer the question for the sake of discussion, and just think that both terms are the synomous with each other in the lexicon of spirituality. they seem to be equivalant in my view.(?) is silence better than stillness?

who knows, perhaps…

peace n love guys
n take care

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Yep, it _is_ a peculiar question.

Kind of a koan.

Or a life and death puzzle.

The terms are not synonyms. You would be hard pressed to argue that they are.

Altho, I think it's very common to think they are synonyms. The meaning(s) of the word “enlightenment”, as we use it in this culture, is rather different from the words used to refer to “enlightenment” by most enlightenment systems.

That's why I inserted all those “What is meant by…” qualifiers.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well ok, if the question is qualified as a koan, then to which the koan is directed towards, i.e. the introverted mind, or no mind. then both those concepts become void, or empty and so they are equivalent.

i donno. just my opinion.

take care as always.
peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, it's more than a koan, actually.

It's a warning.

But, in order to talk about this, I have to ask, what's your model of enlightenment?

What do you think it means to be enlightened?

“Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and means nothing, really.

So what genuine traditional word world you use for your model of enlightenment?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well my model of enlightenment is love. more and more love. never ending, never running out.  always  present.


but id rather not use the word enlightenment unless necessary .from the people i talk to , it just creates a sense of distance and separation which in turn furthers our own fears which stem from our own  ignorance

we create so many false enlightenments and false idols, coming from false perfections created by limited expectations

the ignorance of ourselves, creates fear which isolates us into multiple divisions

thats the play of consciousness, its not a bad thing, but its also natural to realise who you are for the sake of happiness. its not outside of us nor is it limited to time and space.
everything and everyone are connected whether they are conscious of it or not. realization or enlightenment is herenow, and even if we think we miss that moment, there's no worries, since this present moment never ends in reality

have a nice weekend
peace

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Ahhhhhhh…… The “Love” models.

Bhakti enlightenments.

Bhakti is pretty safe. You're liable to hurt others with bhaktis, but you're pretty safe yourself, no great confrontation with reality is an inherent part of the process.

And we live on a planet where hurting others is par for the course, so the moderate liklihood of hurting other with bhaktis is an entirely acceptable risk.

(Compared to the risks of the Moksha models…)

In fact, I think of it as part of bhakti's charm.

Ahhh, sweet Bhakti. Such fond and delicious memories. Everyone should do bhaktis, at least for a while. Ten, twenty years is about right.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

wow bill, thats a pretty complex cynicism you got going there. let's see if we can untangle it a bit… this love is safe in terms that it is our natural home, but its not safe in terms of illusion. there is MUCH need for healing others, and as i read through the various philosophies, they started to be repeating the same thing, and concluded knowledge by itself is useless.

i couldnt really figure out maya, by discrimination of the mind alone. so i accept the illusion with love and it melts away. i do like your encouargement of bhakti, but should know that bhakti is forever, why limit it and judge it with time? no need. the jnani in the same regard is not limited by time and space.


take care

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Yes, complex cynicism. It's not really cynicism, at least not in the sense that word is used in the modern conversation, but I understand that it would seem that way.

It's more like stoicism, technically.

But I'll accept the “complex cynicism” labeling, it's close enough, and does capture much of the spirit of the perspective.

So how's your bhakti going?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

sure, stoicism is fine.  and its interesting cuz i started out with more of a philosophical approach and most of my friends online were hare krishnas and i dont really get what was so interesting about their stories of krishna. but eventually the bhakti wore off on me.

these days ive been pondering about beliefs and their validity. because i would struggle with my parents if they didnt see my perspective. and i would think if god is in all of us, and we're all connected, why is it so hard for us to simply work together? eventually it ocurred to me that  the self which is all of us can 't be perceived by  beliefs 


in one of her video satsangs, gangaji related to us that we should be able to accept good and bad parts of ourselves. or else it builds up a facism in us. at this the audience got a little shocked. and she continued that yes there can be a spiritual facism just like a political facism. thinking that we should we guard the good and kill the bad, just propogates more 'wars'.

so we dont need to train ourselves like animals always beating ourselves up, everytime we make mistakes and letting ourselves learn out of guilt and pain conditioning. thats why some people will hate you even if you love them. because they hate themselves; to go on and love them dislodges their ego of 'i hate myself' so they will make it a point to hate you to make sure that you hate them as well to confirm their existence of 'i hate myself'

but like plato says, 'no one knowingly does evil, for if they were to realise what was right they would pursue that path' because if you investigate the sociopaths and any kind of delinquet all of them have some kind of justification so that their consciounce wouldn't bother them.

but if we're aware of the problem, the answers and solutions come immediately. not necessarily in our timely expectations, but the solution is in the problem nevertheless. all sages and teachers of truth have been the embodiments of love and compassion. doesnt matter what path theyve come to realise the self.

seeing brahma's sons wanting to realise the self, shiva had compassion on them and incarnated into dakshinamurti and stayed in absolute mouna. with the guidance of silence alone, the brahmins realised the self.

even ramana when he would tell stories like this would well up with emotion. the love never ends, nor finds limitations in all of reality and consciousness.

take care
peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

What you just wrote seems a little intellectual and theoretical to me - so-and-so said this, and so-and-so says that.

Sure, there have been plenty of great bhakti practicioners in the past, and all kinds of wise guys, but I already know all that, and at this point it kinda bores me.

The thing that is really interesting is the actual work actual people are doing nowadays - and not the living “experts” and the living famous types, they are the most boring of all.

The only thing that matters is what ordinary folks are doing and trying, because that's where the real hard work is getting done.

So, how's your bhakti going?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Interesting conversation…

Tyrone you said: “…because if you investigate the sociopaths and any kind of delinquet all of them have some kind of justification so that their consciounce wouldn't bother them.”

It is my understanding that a 'true' sociopath operates  without so-called “conscience”. (No remorse, no guilt, no inner sense of “right or wrong” etc.)  That is one of the interesting things about people who fall into this psychological category. They do not feel any need to justify what others would consider the most heinous acts, because they do not have the 'moral compass' or whatever one wants to call it, or a 'conscience' to assuage. They are not lying awake at night guilt-ridden or inventing justifications, they are too busy sleeping like a baby.

I'm talking about the authentic 'sociopath' (used to be called psychopath). Delinquents and others may, as you say, require excuses or other forms of self-medication to help them sleep at night.

~mu

PS: I looked up the term conscience at Wikipedia… here's what it says:

Conscience is a faculty or sense that leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral precepts, or which informs our moral judgment before performing such an action. Such feelings are not intellectually reached, though they may cause us to 'examine our conscience' and review those moral precepts, or perhaps resolve to avoid repeating the behaviour. Commonly used metaphors refer to the “voice of conscience” or “voice within”.]

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well, yes. i agree reading all my philosophy books just gradually started to tear away at my brain, even these days, im going to university and i refuse to take a philosophy class, because i think it would be useless. i love to go the library and see which new philosophy/religion books are out. my process is that i usually like to see the cover, read the back, and then flip randomly through the pages just glancing at the paragraphs. after a while it all seems like the same stuff eh? well, ya, because it is all the same. there's nothing really new, just different patterns of the same consciousness.

but as i explaining to you before, that being in sat sanga with my hare krishna friends, their love of god wore off on me in a signifcant way. i love this little book i have of ramana maharshi and his stories, small enough to fit in your back pocket and long enough to fill a good read throughout the weekend. one of the most striking things he spoke about after one of his stories is that , someone after hearing this kind of story, who doesnt feel that sense of awe or hair raising feeling after hearing these stories, must surely have a heart of stone, i dont know how they keep from melting!

you have asked me again for my bhakti. its quite simple: my bhakti is you. whe else would i be talking to you. truly if you were some ignoramus that just wanted to hurt others and hurt themselves you would be somewhere else not here. the main thing my guru taught me about religion is the ones that focus on limitations rather than freedom have very little use. to accept all and nothing , is where i find my freedom. thats my bhakti. if you mean how was my day, i could say i donated some blood yesterday and today i worked with people with special needs, one of the guys was pretty anxious today and we had to restrain him from running out of the house. but sorry for the misunderstanding because if you say how is your bhakti i would very rarely talk about my bhakti as pertaining to only this body and this personality which is writing to you right now.  even though beliefs can be dangerous, it still stays with me that everyone does everything for the sake of love and it all differs depending on the multitude of varying interpretations.


but last time i was rude, i shouldve also asked, bill, how is your bhakti, your devotion, that which lights up your life and brings you up from your downs?

and by the way its good that you have model of enlightenment resembles that of stoicism. theres some good heritage there. that zeno guy was inspired by the cynics, and the cynics got their ideas from their discipleship of socrates, who in turn was inspired by naked ones in india. so ya, i guess we're all connected hey? ! :)

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Plato was wrong about a lot of things. His Platonic Ideal in which anything, a chair, beauty, whatever, could not be perceived directly because we sit in a cave and can only see the shadows of Reality, not its Platonic Ideal. (I always picture “chair” and “beauty” hanging out in the Cosmos with a tag that says “Ideal”).

I love what you say about “spiritual fascism”. And it's not just what we love/hate about ourselves but also about others.

As for animals, we are animals. Just with larger brain capacity. Interestingly enough, there are insects that have far more advanced systems of communication. Bees tell each other where the pollen is by triangulating the sun, the flower, the hive, and then dance that information to each other.

What hubris we human have, thinking we are the world's guardians. Mother Nature laughs at her latest offspring. Making mistakes is EXACTLY what evolution is. What works survives, what doesn't dies off.

I'm reminded of Prometheus, doomed to eternal pain by Zeus, for having discovered the technology of fire. We build bombs, we will suffer. We build machines and think we have dominion over the planet. Harumph!

It's difficult to work together, because we are not a world community, but groups divided by history, ethnicity, language, territoriality, and the genetic disposition to want our personal DNA to thrive at the expense of somebody else's DNA. Lots of male animals kill the offspring of other males so that their DNA will survive.

Isn't that called war?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

edited to add (this post didn't end up where I expected ut to go - it was just a correction of a typo in a post made last week…) 

So what genuine traditional word world you use for your model of enlightenment?

correction:

So what genuine traditional word would you use for your model of enlightenment?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and means nothing, really.

You are so brave to write that on Zaadz. And of course, I agree. One man's Enlightenment is another man's boredom.

As for the truly great Masters, they don't want or expect deification. If anything, they hope to get rid of you to think for yourself.

I also believe that great teachers learn far more from their students than the students do from the teacher.

My model of enlightenment is being a busy bee, hopping from flower to flower of the huge garden of religion/philosophy/science/mysticism, finding the juiciest pollen and fertilizing my mind with it.

Om Tat Sat……………THIS IS IT!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

…brave to write that on Zaadz

Yeah, that's got some truth to it - but ordinarily I would only be so honest inside the “magic circle” of this pod, here on zaadz, so it ain't that brave. ;-}

I know many people aren't interested in really examining “enlightenment”, and they have a lot invested in the emotional ideal of “enlightenment”, and it would be a failure of compassion to try to force them to look at it in different ways.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

ya, thats true mu, (hey that rhymes) . i mentioned that example of sociopaths in the attempt to bridge the gap between all groups of people. it is in my intent to explain things quite similar to plato's statement that 'no one knowingly commits evil, for if they were to be aware of what they were to be doing, then they would see it as natural to do the thing that is most harmonious with their existence'  plz dont quote me on that one, just some bad paraphrasing from my memory but i should it should be accurate in its essence. 

so yes, it certainly could be argued that these true sociopaths have no so called consciounces as defined by modern day psychological or wikipedia terms.  thankfully you provided the definition that you were basing your argument on top of. it says that this consciounce cant be intellectually reached.  with that i would have to concur, because as much as i want to i cant turn off my consciounce , well atleast not that easily.

but could it be reasonable to say that these true sociopaths have a subconscious? a memory? and active will that feeds off the former two. could that will itself be influences by this consciounce, which we cant measure directly. in those documentaries where they question the charged individuals with heinous acts, we measure there consciounce resonance or lack there of in terms of their answers.

all of that said, which is almost all useless rhetoric ( i admit it) is that these sociopaths do still indeed have thoughts, as far as we can tell, although most of their sociological capicity (thinking of what others might think of us) has been blocked off by chemicals in the brain which have been triggered by given circumstances in their past history. we can still measure their consciounce by the fact that they are still thinking. its not that their consciounce has completely disappeared like some kind of leisoning(process where you remove brain parts to prevent further damage) experiment gone wrong.

so , if this consciounce cant be intellectually reached, it certainly is something very difficult to determine, other than the occurance of thoughts, which is even more mysterious to the modern day brain scientists and the philosopher alike.

in conclusion, know thyself.

the hint to the problem is that all are self, and that the separation is an illusion.

take care you guys, have merry and wonderful chirstimas and holiday season, may you get what you need, share with others who you are, and all that mushy stuff.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Thanks Tyrone. Hope you had a good one too.

Know thyself is indeed good advice.

All the best,
~mu

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill…

What is your intention for participating with this pod? 

Your writings seem to imply an absolute knowingness and authority.  I'm sure you're a really great guy, and yet you come off like really coarse sandpaper.  So far (and I could've missed it), I haven't read anything from you that sounds like you're all that free or happy.  Are you? 

So again…what is your intention for participating with this pod?  What's in it for you?  And are you getting what you came for?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Very free. And very happy. So happy it's a little tough to talk sometimes.

What I'm saying is that almost everything humans think they know about enlightenment is bullshit.

The atmosphere surrounding enlightenment talk is also bullshit.

And everybody is looking in the wrong direction, at the wrong things.

I come off like sandpaper because I'm saying what everyone believes is bullshit. Naturally this offends. I knew that when I started.

I'm participating because I care deeply about the topic, having devoted my life to the study of enlightenment.

It's far too early to tell if I can or will accomplish my intentions with this project. But at the very least, I hope not to add to the bullshit. And to raise questions that will be considered by other people who truly love the question of enlightenment.

Asking the right questions is what it's all about.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

ya i agree, theres a lot of BS in this stuff, but i think when we act with our best and most sincere intentions, even if we goof up or something stupid, somehow things keep rolling on nevertheless.  like on friday morning, one of the residents i work for, had diarrea, and so we had to shower him before he went to work. as he was walking to the shower, i went to grab his shampoo and forgot that the floor was still slippery. so even though he was holding on to his chair, he slipped right off his feet onto his back. omg, i checked his upper back and neck to see if he was ok, thankfully, nothing serious got damaged, but reminded me to be way more conscious of what i was doing.  i felt pretty ashamed, but thankfully god was looking after him better than i was. after that i got him showered and ready for work, ironically after he came back in the afternoon, they said he had a really good day and was in a great mood.

by the way, adyashanti admitted the same thing about BS . when he first started teaching he was invited to 'spiritual dinners' with other teachers and he couldn't stand what he said to be that 'spritual persona bull shit' and that once he stepped outside, a breath of fresh air was all it took to forget all that crap.

anyways, take care guys, happy a great new year's , and drive safe.

tyrone

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I want to come back to the question of my practices of bhakti, Tyrone, and the question of the love meme in enlightenment systems, but it's such a big topic that it almost seems to deserve a thread to itself.

But I thought a wiki would be appropriate, so we have a shared sense of what this word “bhakti” means.

This is how most people would think of it, largely because of the influence of the Gita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti

But, my use of the word is slightly more technical, as a field of Yogic discipline, one of the four main types of yoga.

—
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti_yoga

Bhakti yoga is a term within Hinduism which denotes the spiritual practice of fostering of loving devotion to God, called bhakti. Traditionally there are nine forms of bhakti-yoga. Bhakti yoga is generally considered the easiest of the four general paths to liberation, or moksha (the others being Karma, Raja and Jnana Yoga), and especially so within the current age of Kali yuga (according to the Hindu cycle of time). In scriptures such as the Bhagavata Purana, bhakti is described as a perfectional stage in itself which surpasses even moksha as a level of spiritual realisation. Hindu movements in which bhakti yoga is the main practice are called bhakti movements.
—

Like I said, bhakti should probably be discussed in a thread by itself.

It's interesting to note that bhakti is often difficult to distinguish from religion.

One of the practices that I think works well for modern westerners is _serial religion_, practicing the planets different main types of religion one after the other. If you do it right, it “unwinds” a person from religion, ironically by practicing religion. A lot of my earlier bhakti was in that form, an exploration of the planet's religions, trying to learn the lesson of each religious idea.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Dear Bill and all,

“One of the practices that I think works well for modern westerners is
_serial religion_, practicing the planets different main types of
religion one after the other. If you do it right, it “unwinds” a person
from religion, ironically by practicing religion. A lot of my earlier
bhakti was in that form, an exploration of the planet's religions,
trying to learn the lesson of each religious idea.”

I think this is a very insightful comment and theory.

I found this to be true in my life and 'practice' as well.

I started at the age of eight (the serial religion part) after being very ill for the first seven years of my life. I experienced very high fevers much of the time and was not expected to live. When I finally rose' out of the delirium of those early years, I began a quest. My quest began like most; I was looking for answers to things like suffering, life/death, infinity/Creator…the existential dilemma. Religion was the obvious starting place for me venthough I did not come froma so-called religious family. I started with Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Science Church, and the roller coaster ride took off from there. The story is too long and complex to recount here, but from where I am today (the 'unwound' part?) I find it impossible to put into words. I have tried some over the years, but since I usually fail to be able to communicate it, I usually remain silent. I can be overwhelming - that's a good thing I guess. But, I still enjoy reading and listening to others talk about their practices and insights. And there is a total acceptance of 'other' in that regard.

Maybe, the unwinding and subsequent occasional re-winding process is in keeping with the constant flow and movement of everything else? Maybe you will comment on your thoughts about the process a little bit more.  Have you found that once unwound the  goals (or non-goal) is to remain unwound to any particular philosophy or institutionalized school of thought etc?

mu

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, my experience has been that every religion you embrace leaves a kind of permanent impression on the mind (and the body). And certain religions, or more accurately the religions you practice at certain stages of life, influence you much more strongly than others.

As an example, your childhood religion affects you the strongest, and religions practiced during major passages of life, like physical maturity in the late teens and early twenties, social maturity at around thirty, and mid-life crisis religions in early forties, will “burn” themselves into the structure of your ego, and the most commonly repeated thoughts of your mind, the strongest.

Or at least that's how it happened with me, and that's what I've seen in others.

I think by practicing all the planet's great religions, a bunch of different things happen in the mind. Some of it looks a lot like “developing immunity” to me - similar to how our body adapts to disease - which might seem to be a funny way to talk about religion.

But a lot of it is just a radical change in the idea of the “Other”. Part of the way religions work socially is to create an Us versus Them worldview, to create a giant “mental herd” of similarly thinking people organized to defend against other mental herds who believe a different religion. The other herds are a dangerous “Other” - an other that needs to be competed with and conquered and converted.

But when you yourself understand the religion the other mental herd believes, it changes and expands the “Us versus Them” dynamic.

There's a lot more I could say, it's a complicated subject.

    

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

i think religion is cool. ive loved what its exposed me to and feel grateful that i can participate in the process of religion.

i have doubts about comparing religions to groceries in where we can consume them, because it was my experience of quite the contrary. religion consumed me. either or i guess. night and day type perceptions perhaps.

this us versus them is just nursery school religion. love is scary, its like jumping off the cliff and believing someone will catch you. theres no sense in that, and certainly it takes time to outgrow the utility of fear.

all these groups fight each other to resolve some sort of karma, feeling themselves as the body, so thats what they use to validate their beliefs in god. when others close up the books and stare up at the clouds and see them for what they are, the battles just seem like a force of nature.  its a nice view i guess, might as well share some tea. …and then back to the wheatfield.

peace n love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well, the spirit of the practice isn't 'religion shopping', it's more along the lines of exploring the “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” of the religious impulse on this planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

Altho, it could look like religion shopping. It starts where it starts, that is, each individual is in a specific situation with regards to religion, and when I was suggesting the practice to people, I would say, “What attracts you? What religious ideas do you feel an affinity to? That's the place to start.”.

The goal is to have practiced at least one variation of the planet's great religious schools, which, at the risk of oversimplifying, we could name as shamanisms, polytheisms, monotheisms, ethicisms, a-theisms, and the magical schools (if you want to include them).

Another way of looking at it is to divide the planet up somewhat regionally - which leaves you with shamanisms (the whole planet), the major eastern schools, and the major western schools. The major eastern schools usually would be simplified into the vedic/hindu polytheisms, buddhist a-theisms and polytheisms, and the ethicism schools like confucianism and taoism. The Major western schools would be simplified to judaism, christianity, and islam, with the older magical schools still in existence but more suppressed than in the east.

Roughly 5 or 6 main streams of religion - easy enough to devote a certain number of years to each, and integrate within oneself a representation of the whole religious history of the planet.

—

Naturally, a person who is in the middle of any one particular religious school doesn't want to think about the meaning and the consequences of stopping that religion and starting another.

That's the nature of religion - it tries to dominate the mind in which it is running.

Thats why choosing to run another religion is such an effective practice

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

[This is a reply to Bill's post of Thursday - it seems confusing the way they are posted here]

Interesting theory. This is something (for me) that deserves more focused attention than I have at the moment. (Studying for a Thanatology final and beginning a new  Counseling class.)

I want to come back and digest these posts later when my head is not so full of semi-irrelevant facts and figures. 

~mu

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

so just to be clear, Bill, by organising all these religions, is that your bhakti(devotion) per se? if anything i was just wondering what was the meaning behind all of it or a purpose for it.

take care as always

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Oh no, the devotion is, well, the “devotion” - it's a certain way of holding the mind and the body, the yearning and calling and reaching and opening for the divine, the thousand forms of prayer, the rites of invocation and puja, or whatever form the devotion happens to take.

But, repeating and integrating the history of devotion on the planet is a type of meta-bhakti. It frees, or tends to free, the practicioner from the 'veil of culture'.

Suppose a person wanted to do Patanjali's sutras, and take the easier path, and therefore starts to do devotions to Ishvara, the personal god who aids yogi's attain realization.

Anybody who's done this soon realizes it can be a very big aid in practicing raja yoga. “Prayer” to Ishvara is one of the quickest ways to start the successful practice of king yoga.

But is Ishvara really a personal god? Is Krishna really a personal god? Is Allah really a personal god? Is Adonai really a personal god?

These are all cultural masks - “the veil of culture” - painted over an inner experience which we call by the names of god.

But you can't know that, for certain, if you stay in one religion all your life. Your devotion might be perfect, but, ultimately, you are still telling yourself a cultural and regional story. You are still trapped in history. Your love might redeem you, might fill you with bliss untill death, but that isn't moksha.

So, serial planetary religion is a meta-bhakti, a freedom technique.

If you don't want moksha, there's no reason to do it. Regional bhakti by itself is awefully damn sweet, and who knows, maybe moksha is over-rated.

—

I'm expecting to be offline for the next few days…

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi everyone. I am new to the discussion, but Bill's previous post prompted a comment and a question. One of the great dilemmas, it seems to me, is how to express devotion without falling into the trap of reinforcing a separate “self” that does not exist. So if I pray about what I want, enlightenment or whatever, I am setting up an “I” that wants something.

So the question is how to express the burning and yearning with out leaving awareness to produce a “self” that wants something?

So what is this certain way of holding the mind and body while reaching for the divine?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

hey mark, hope you're doing well. and thanks bill for your response, it was pretty interesting to read.

on devotion, the important thing is not me, but the aspect of devotion, so if i fear falling into the trap, then my devotion is more about myself then let's say the higher power which was originally intended.

devotion, like chanting and meditation can be described psychologically where the neurons of our thoughts fire in a specific way for a long enough time, that the chemicals in our brain run out of the specific energy for that point of attention. that gap of thoughts, can reveal the emptyness of the mind. and with that no concepts of enlightenment or suffering are present.
just resting in the heart. take care guys. peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Well Mark, I think that by the time a person has really absorbed and experienced and reorganized their psyche with the anatman (no-self) realizations, bhakti as devotion isn't going to be felt to be that attractive and important.

You can still do it, but it would be as something more like an artform, than as a devotion in the original sense of the idea.

In my case it evolved into something like an ecstatic appreciation of the universe as a baseline ground of being. God is gone, but here the body still seems to be, on the surface of this amazingly pretty planet, moving thru an amazingly pretty universe, or at least appearing to do so.

The ecstasy one used to get from god, now comes from dirt and air and gravity and photons. Everywhere you look it's nothing but flashing bliss. Even as the body ages and approaches death everything is just so freakin' beautiful. ;-}

But, ya know, if you personally still want to play with bhakti, even if you've got anatman, why not? Sometimes one just wants to do art for art's sake. God doesn't mind the fact that he or she doesn't exist. In fact, I often suspect god is quite amused by his or her own non-existence. At least, that's what god has been known to say, when you talk to him or her.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

It reminds me of an old post of mine in my blog: http://hermanobrother.zaadz.com/blog/2006/9/bs

Which simply states that all enlightenment talk, integral talk, integral theories, zen talk, religion talk, theology talk… the whole thing that's discussed all around here is all bullshit.

I came to the same conclusion.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I tend towards a pretty severe view of enlightenment, but I'm a little less severe than that.

I figure all the talk and material is only about 98.5% crap.

Actually, the scale slides a bit.

I'd like to think I have good days where what I say about enlightenment is only about 97% crap.

But, naturally, everyone has a rosy picture of themselves.
 
And I'm just another big-brained animal on the surface of this very nice planet.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill…

What is your intention for participating with this pod? 

I hope you feel free to return and continue to critique me, Scott.

I very much appreciated your critique.

I also hope this post will show up correctly in the layout of this thread.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I also hope this post will show up correctly in the layout of this thread.

But it did not. Sometimes the way this software chooses to display posts is quite odd. One clicks on reply to post and it adds the reply to the end of the thread instead.

So it goes.

I think I'll test a 'reply to thread' from the same location.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

A test for Scott's very much appreciated observations…

Where will this post? At the end of the thread, or just under the original post?

I tried a reply to post before, it ended up at the end of the thread.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

well i guess practice makes perfect.

have a great week.

namasthe

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Wisdom can be better than Enlightenment if you see it like this:
(at least I see it like this)

If you're wise, you will know that it's ok not be enlightened. You do not cling to whether you're enlightened or not. You are ok with how things are.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill and All.  It's been about a year since I have posted on this pod.  I had some weird ideas and I attached to them.  Oh well.  Hermano- your brief reparte on this thread as of recent, seems to be a bit of an Occam's Razor to what Bill was saying about most enlightenment talk being bullshit.  I could be wrong.  Don't care.  I too love the topic of enlightenment dearly as well as wisdom.  That is why I shut my mouth for a year.  I may be making a mistake here.  I could be wrong.  Don't care.  So Bill, is my assessment slightly accurate that Hermano's last statement is essentially your BS meter or Occam's Razor in a Spiritual Sense?  What methodology do you use to sift through the BS?  Or is there none other than just devoting one's self to specific mental and spiritual vehicles for years at a time?  I do like what you said Bill, about being stuck in religious cultural/regionalism and that by praciticing the world's serial religions is a sort of Meta-Bhakti.  This too could maybe be your BS meter?  I believe I asked that question already in a different format.  I could be wrong.  Don't care.  I may post again in another year when I read commentary and learn some more.  Thanks!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Erik, wow, a year comes and goes. Time, it's amazing stuff.

The stuff you are talking about is so interesting it deserves a thread all to itself. Bullshit metering, and how to seperate the best stuff from all the endless piles of cultural material that it is mixed with.

What methodology do you use to sift through the BS?  Or is there none other than just devoting one's self to specific mental and spiritual vehicles for years at a time?

Time and experience are definitely a huge factor. But, it's not the only factor. I figure we've all seen examples of persons who have a lot of time under their belt, but they seem just as fixated on and trapped within a “truth” as anybody else. So, it's not just time that does the trick.

I do think one of the most important thing that any practicioner (that's my word for a person who really works hard at “this stuff”, based on the idea of the sadhu, which means “one who does practices”) can do is to force themselves to master multiple systems, to make sure that they have the ability to look at this stuff from several perspectives and levels.

Which is part of what I was talking about with the meta-bhakti of practicing devotions from different religions and places on this planet.

When you can think in multiple systems, you have a mind that is much better able to see the details and find the best stuff.

Referring back to bhakti, then, “faith” stops being a faith in (insert name of diety here), and becomes something harder, a faith in the structure of reality and the universe itself, a faith in oneself. Then faith becomes invisible.

Personally, probably my favorite technique for BS detection involves what I call “stories”. Once you understand it's all stories, it becomes pretty easy to tell what is just something that somebody heard somewhere, and what is real, hard, and unique actual experience.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hello again Bill

     Thanks for the answer.  I suspect that is about as specific an answer one can expect with such an esoteric topic.  I too find myself bored with the pithy “wisdoms” touted and paraded as new when they are just the same old koans and kong ans wearing different clothing.  Westerners really seem to like to do this.  The only one who seems to gather a bit of my interest is the sangha work being done by Andrew Cohen (What Is Enlightenment) by way of claiming that his more advanced student practitioners seem to have been experiencing another “state” in consciousness with the hopeful, I guess continued holding on to this said state long enough to make it perhaps a stage or rung in the ladder of never-ending consciousness.  Hmmm.  I do not know if I give this much creedance or if it really matters much for all intents and purposes.  Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber seem to think that all of this sitting around being present business is just fine, now let's do something with it to move forward.  This does not sound new to me.  Zen, I think, covers this already.  Before enlightenment, whatever that is, chop the wood - carry the water.  After enlightenment, the same.  Basically just bringing present awareness to all activity without doing the present moment a disservice by wondering off to non-existant time frames by identifying with thoughts.  Again.  I may be wrong.  Don't care.  Seems needlessly wordy and egoically complicated.  Everyone's OK anyway, with or without “enlightenment”.  I think that is probably more important to convey to others than the “attainment” of enlightenment itself.  You are OK.  Now go have a good time and quit worrying about needless bullshit.  A bit idealistic?  Probably.  Ehh.  No big deal.  Works for me.  Everything is beautiful and I am just another speck of consciousness greatful to be alive to look at it and experience it.  Whether it's me or not, really makes no difference and does not change it one iota.  Your thoughts?  I bet I can guess.

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Erik, I can get way more specific, but it would be a waste of both of our times if I just “said” important things to you.

You have to steal it from me. You have to trap me in the Game of Truth.

I've laid down the clues, I'm trying to make it easy for you to trap me.

This is part of the reason that there is so much bullshit. People haven't realized, and they can't see, that truth and wisdom and this thing that we often call “enlightenment” can't be given and can't be taught and can't be discussed.

It can only be taken.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

So far, I haven't heard a single new thing from Andy Cohen or his students.

It all sounds like the same old same old to me. I'm constantly scanning the information flows coming from folks like Andy and all the others looking for the unique and unmistakeable traces of new direct knowledge and experience, not something heard somewhere or read somewhere, but something that comes from an individual human slamming into the real.

Now, I'm not in the inner circles of the Andy work, and I know how incredibly hard it is to speak and write the truth about this stuff we call “enlightenment”. So, maybe there is something delicious there that just hasn't reached my mind.

That would be wonderful, if it was true. There is nothing sweeter than the deadly poison of something true and real.
  

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hello Bill-

     So I will cut to the chase.  Is your faith in yourself the “truth” you are trapped in?  Is there such a thing as Cosmic egocentrism?  If beyond knowing is of course the realization that All is YOU and YOU are All, is there still a scrap of ego left to get puffed up over that?  Maybe this is a trait unique to the human experience.  So you “take” the realization that YOUR expansiveness emcompasses All and in that non-conceptual concept(?) perhaps there is a little arrogance in the comforting thought beyond thought, that YOU are always OK and beyond death or life for that matter.  Almost smug maybe?  I'm probably reading way too much into this and am guilty of projecting my own flaws onto you.  I enjoy them.  They bother me not.  Please do not make it easy on me.  I enjoy it best when the game is afoot.  Squirming and kicking is when I am really “feeling” something.  Wonderful.  The devil you say.  The demons will play…

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

     Of course I have realized that in classic Zen fashion (my truth I am stuck in), by responding to you I opened my mouth.  30 strikes from your bamboo staff.  Yet if I close my mouth, I am damned to Hell.  I love these kong ans!  >Whack!<

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

by responding to you I opened my mouth.

Yeah, well, it's inherent to the situation.

Look at it from my point of view. In order to say anything real to you, I also have to open my mouth.

I make a set of choices, hoping that my real communication can get thru the necessary mechanisms of the ego - for only the ego can speak.

But, there's no guarantee that what I'm really trying to say can get thru. There are dozens of ways it can be blocked, by my ego-structure, by your ego-structure, and by the many cultural filters between you and I.

That's partly why I said the good stuff can't be given, it can only be taken.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

So I will cut to the chase.  Is your faith in yourself the “truth” you are trapped in? 

Well, how would you test for that?

Do I speak like I know because I know, or because I don't know?

How would you test me? You _should_ be suspicious. You _should_ be wary.

This is what we were talking about - bullshit detetction.

Ahhh, it's a bit of a moot point. What you appear to me to be interpreting as ego (as I interpret what you've just written), I intended as the open conversation between practicioners. Simply saying to you how I see things.

I didn't fully follow your discussion about ego, but I noticed you mention “and beyond death”.

My take on that is that none of us are beyond death. It comes swiftly.

Oh, I figure I should answer your original question above. Nah, that's not my trap. ;-}

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Bill

     Oh yes.  My response was definitely egoic.  I didn't even try to hide it.  The whole damn thing was filled with hubris and self inflation.  Pedestal high in it's discertation wielded with gloating pomp and arrogance.   I read too much.  I listen too little.  My ego greatly appreciates the compliment of acknowledging my person as a fellow and equal practitioner.  'What a hoot!  Ehh.  Getting needlessly off topic.  Naah, I was trying to throw in a sorry attempt at trying to “trap” you with empty rhetoric when in fact all I think I did was insult both our intelligences.  So I will now set the pace of my quest with another query concerning your proclamation of enlightenment.  You say you “got” enlightenment as you have professed on your profile.  Words are cheap.  Define for me what entails enlightenment to you and your answer will dictate the direction of my questioning accordingly as you will of course understand.  This is not a trust or faith based question.  I have no reason to doubt your claim.  It is just a question.  What is enlightenment to YOU?  This is fun isn't it?

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

all I think I did was insult both our intelligences.

The difference bertween an amateur and a professional is not that the professional doesn't make mistakes - it's that he knows how to fix it when he does. You jumped out of your own trap before it closed. I understand what that means. ;-}

And then you get serious and ask the most important real question anybody can ask in this situation.

Which is, “Just what, exactly, do you mean by “enlightenment”?

This is one of the tests, one of the better tests.

Altho, as a test, it has certain drawbacks. The biggest drawback being, suppose the enlightened human you were testing faked the answer by simply repeating the pre-existing storylines of enlightenment to you? How would you tell if you are just being told things that “everybody knows”, stuff from the books, or being told something real about enlightenment?

Suppose somebody who wasn't enlightened, but mistakenly thought he was, was asked that question, and he repeated all the stuff he's read or heard, and it all sounded pretty much like what “everybody knows”.

How would you tell wether it was real enlightenment, or just stories from old books, that sounded good?

—

Anyway, I love this test. and I'm ready to talk. But, to make sure we are on the same page as we start out, I want to ask you two questions first.

1. Where does the word “enlightenment”, as we use it in this case, come from?

2. What was the meaning of the original words for enlightenment? 

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hello Bill-

     I will start by answering question number one.  These maybe “innaccurate” answers but I “think” you are looking for something more than common ground here. So I will combine the elements of what I “know” of the word enlightenment with what I feel in the totallity of my answers.

1)  In my best combined study and guess, the word enlightenment in the context we are using for this discussion has it's roots in Animistic/Vedic India and Nepal.  I would have to guess it was popularized by the Mendicants and Renunciates of pre-Siddhartha times.  Renouncing the world and practicing austerities was said to be the most probable path toward enlightenment before Siddhartha's discovery of the Middle Way and the Eight Fold Path.

2)  I will use simplicity in this answer:  An awakened state.  Free of suffering and wanting (desire).  A transcending beyond conceptual realities into Nirvana/Nibbana.


     I base my own persuit of awakening on the four laws discovered by Shakyamuni Buddha.  You already know them, but for the sake of the continuity of this discussion and thread, I will list them for other's reference. They are:

1)  All compound things are illusory

2)  All emotions are pain

3)  All things have no inherent existance

4)  Nirvana (enlightenment) is beyond concepts

     To answer your question previous to the last two:

“How would you test for enlightenment in another?”

     This is a bit of a sticky wicket here.  There is no test.  Blind faith.  Letting go.  Aha!!  Taking the enlightenment myself and throwing all verbal bullshit aside.  No signs or words or acts are true testimony to a persons enlightened state.  As such they are simply that: acts!  There is no map to what one already is.  There is no becoming what one already is.  Both ideas are synonymous and moot.  I may be wrong.  I don't care.  Fun!  I claim no awakening myself, nor do I profess to be a teacher of it either.  I am content without reason.  I am grateful moment to moment.  I am a warrior of stillness.  I do know that I do not know and that is exactly right in all the situations I have experienced thus far.  I dwell in the wonderfully ordinary and this I suspect is an awakening of sorts.  I do not seek.  I look for no confirmation, but if there is more to it, it would certainly be hoot to experience, no?!

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Ha ha ha ha ha! Sorry dude, totally wrong. I mean, like, really, totally wrong.

If you stop and think about it, you should be able to figure out what I mean.

Think about it. The word - enlightenment. Where did it come from?

And what did the original words for enlightenment mean?

What was the original model of enlightenment?

—

I didn't really ask “How do you test for enlightenment in another”? That's way more advanced.

I asked, how do you tell stories that someone might have memorized,  from something that might be real enlightenment?

Even if it's a story you really like, it might just have been memorized.

—

One thing I can say - if you think those mahayana precepts really describe enlightenment, then whatever it is I got ain't enlightenment. Altho nirvana really is beyond concepts.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

This *is* getting juicy now :)  Ha ha ha…

I hesitated before jumping in, inside of an idea that this was a private dokusan or something, and then laughed realizing this was a very public thread….love it….

The word enlightenment came from………MIND

The original words for enlightenment mean….NOTHING

YOU/I…..can't test for enlightenment in another…tho there does seem to be some sort of noticing or recognizing, but putting attention on describing that recognition seems to dissolve the discriber

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Scott, welcome back! ;-}

it's juicy!

So a word like “enlightenment” comes from - MIND - fully formed, all at once, unspoken by humans, unhistorical, pure, complete, with no beginning and no end?

And the sanskrit word “bodh” means - “nothing”?

Sure you can test for enlightenment in another. The thing is, you can't get an absolute yes or no answer, because enlightenment, being a human phenomenon, isn't an absolute.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Bill and Scott-

     Well, I would love to respond with, “yeah, what Scott said.”  But that would be too obvious.  Of course everything comes from mind until mind is no more.  Then what?  Zilch.  Black.  Nada.  Zip.  That realm of deep dreamless sleep.  Forever.  Nothing going on at all.  Death.  Just rattling off there.  I took the questions from a literal sense.  My bad or good.  Don't care.  It is what it is.  Still content.  Still fun.  You got me Bill.  Or YOU got YOU.  How esoteric do we take this?  Does it matter?  It seems meaningless.  I think my ego's perception is nihilistic at heart.  It's hard to feel anything for anything except my wife and kids.  I have a deep “Mother Hen” protective love over them but everthing else is just a “movie” to me.  It can burn in the projector at anytime and I could care less.  Once a cop, always a cop.  I don't attach well to things because I know that they are just going to fade, die, blow away, whatever.  So I don't allow myself to get too emotionally involved with stuff that doesn't really seem to matter.  Yet I am still content.  Not always happy, but a deep seeded, underlying contentment knowing that I'm OK no matter what I “think” or “feel”.  Because both of those concepts aren't real.  There is no personality in deep dreamless sleep.  Blaaaaah.  Here I go off topic again.  I don't think that my game is up to snuff to gleen from you Bill.  I think I get what you are saying then I don't.  My problem is I don't care.  But this is fun!  Weird?

Bathe in Light,

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill-

     I got so wrapped up in my crap there, I forgot to say some other things that I think are more relevant and topic oriented.  So if mind invented enlightenment, and the Buddhist precepts are BS, then what is it that you have attained or “taken”?  I still don't seem to get an answer there.  What is enlightenment to you?  I ain't gonna answer it for you.  YOU tell me.  I don't do vague.  Remember, I am an Ex-cop turned Chief of Security for a Government Building.  I like interrogation.  It's fun.  One room.  Two chairs.  A table.  A one way window and bad lighting and I do well with no sleep.  Answer?  I am probably too far gone and cynical for this.  Who knows?

Bathe in Light,(<—This is sincere and no BS)

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

I'm pulling Scott's leg, Erik. Mind is not where the word enlightenment came from, altho, it was invented by human minds. And the original words for enlightenment do not mean nothing, they mean something very specific.

The point I'm trying to get over with these questions has to do with _language and stories_. You and I, as we are now, can only pretend to talk about enlightenment, because we are working with radically different usages of language and stories.

If you'll recall, I've been mentioning stories from the beginning of this conversation.

To go back to the old languages, you need to understand stories to understand sankharas (if you prefer the pali) or samskaras. (Knowledge of biology helps too.)

If I say certain words to you, I can be 99% certain that you don't understand them in the same sense that I do. I can tell you what I mean by enlightenment, but, if I tell you, yet I know you don't understand the words the way I do, have I really told you anything?

If I was ignorant of the importance of words, I would just start telling you stories. And you would either like the stories or dislike the stories, but you would only be reacting to the stories and the storyteller, and you would end up with no real idea of what I mean by “enlightenment”.

From my point of view, that would be the same thing as lying to you.

Here, let me give you one of my most simple formulas for what enlightenment means.

When a person has developed the ability to not lie to himself, the person can enter nirvana, and he (or she) is enlightened. It's not important if he lies to others, and he doesn't have to not lie to himself every minute of every day. But he must be able to not lie to himself at will.

This is only one description/stream pointing to enlightenment, there are others that are just as important. Enlightenment isn't simple.

And dude, you tend to keep putting words in my mouth. I never said that the “Buddhist precepts are BS”.

I love old Gotama. He was brilliant. Well, if he existed. As a story, he was a brilliant character.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

The Buddha is my kind of guy.

As for which is better, I vote for wisdom…..you're already enlightened, whether you know it or not.

Wisdom takes years of experience, the vicissitudes of life, endless dealings with what the Buddha called suffering.

Ah, if only I were wise 40 years ago to what I've grown in wisdom now.

Peace.

Sally

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

As for which is better, I vote for wisdom…..you're already enlightened, whether you know it or not.

Hi Sally! I think that's an excellent answer.

But, the way I formulated the question, it is kind of a trick question. Because it's contextual, and the answer to the question depends on the context of the person.

And the context that's important about that question is, when does the human involved expect to die?

If you don't expect to die for many years. wisdom is far better.

But if you expect to be dying relatively soon, enlightenment might be better. Wisdom is still good, tho. That's one of those 6 of one, half a dozen of the other deals. ;-}

One of the stories about enlightenment that is most common, especially since mahayana times, is that everybody is already enlightened. And my personal experience has led me to conclude that this story is very close to being “true”, but it's not quite accurate.

So, my current best story about that goes like this. Everybody probably already has what they need to enter enlightenment at any moment, and every person probably experiences brief moments of enlightenment, but they don't know it. Not knowing it is pretty much the same as not being enlightened. But, enlightenment is very close, all the time.

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that it's a blessing that most people don't enter enlightenment any sooner than is necessary. ;-} 

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill:

Ole buddy, let me turn the question around a little. What is better for others (if in fact there are others) your wisdom or your enlightenment?

For enlightenment to have any value it must be lived. That defines wisdom in my book. There are too many “enlightened” who even though they can witness like crazy, still don't handle their issues ie their ego patterns. So no one really enjoys or benefits from the fact that they are enlightened.

So the Self is not enhanced.


Mark

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Mark! ;-}

Wisdom is better for others, of course. Enlightenment is, as far as I can tell now, the most profoundly individualistic, even selfish, of all human experiences and conditions.

Paradoxically. Enlightenment means the end of individuality, but at the same time is the most individual of experiences. It's crazy.

For enlightenment to have any value it must be lived. That defines wisdom in my book. There are too many “enlightened” who even though they can witness like crazy, still don't handle their issues ie their ego patterns. So no one really enjoys or benefits from the fact that they are enlightened.

Now, you are pointing right at the issue which has been the single most important issue for me personally.

“Enlightenment” without the right set of skills - essentially, without the right kind of properly trained and developed ego, especially “enligtenment” at too young of an age, is extremely likely to collapse into a kind of sociopathic insanity.

Now, I'm not suggesting the same kind of delusional, disfunctional insanity that we connect with normal schizophrenia. I'm talking about a special kind of collapsed state that occurs when you have had the “enlightenment” effects start in the body and mind, but you can't handle the personal implications.

This is actually a really advanced topic, and very controversial, and hard to discuss. Because it strikes right at the heart of the enlightenment marketplace.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill:

There is a mythos that once enlightenment has occurred that personal development is over. It makes personal development incredibly easy, but it cannot be ignored.

I know the use of the term personal development in a weird sense here, but I think you know what I mean. After enlightenment you still tie your shoes and you still give your wife the finger, but you have to know the difference between the two.

You can't act out and say, “well I am detatched.”


Mark

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

After enlightenment you still tie your shoes and you still give your wife the finger, but you have to know the difference between the two.

I love that way of thinking about enlightenment. You do not stop doing stuff, or being silly, or even having temporary moments of telling people they annoy you, just because you happen to be enlightened.

Being enlightened ain't all that. I love being non-reverential and using humor about spirituality.

P.S. Never believe anything you read. Especially my stuff.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Nirvans does not mean enlightenmet it means [cessation]


read this
http://pods.zaadz.com/truth_enlightenment_self_enquiry_self_realisation/discussions/view/153522

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hey Bill-

     I see your point and I understand with a modicum of clarity.  If I said I completely understood, that would not be true and this conversation would not be happening as I would probably be bored stiff with it being in some kind of “what's the point?” mindset/paradigm.  Most sorry for the bad habit of putting words in your mouth.  Again, I think too much.  Read too much into things.  It is one of my many weaknesses and someday I will figure out how to turn them into strengths instead of relying on my “paranoid super cop” persona that I have to wear at work everyday.  It's difficult at times to remember that I am wearing a mask when I come home and play super cop to the family.  They call my bullshit of course and reality sets in.  Enough unimportant off-topic crap.  Back to the conversation.  Yes.  We both are speaking English, but the words are most likely intrinsically different between us in many cases.  It would be tedious to sit and define each pertinent word in every sentence so as to speak from the same voice.  This helps me appreciate your point made earlier about alot of teaching being bullshit.  If I misquoted you there, I apologize.  I am just trying to remember the overall message.  And I don't feel like goddamn going over the last 50-60 posts to find the exact phrase.  Pointless.  Sorry.  I can be an ornery bastard and thus I might have alittle difficulty learning.  I grew up in an invironment where anger was not only my strength, it was my friend.  It lingers a bit.  I accept it.  Baah!  But this is still fun.  As far as enlightenment is concerned, as much as it fascinates me, I am not fully convinced that it exists.  I believe as long as I have life coursing through my veins that there is energy relating to other energy units on this planet at a human level of understanding.  There is not one iota of a shred of evidence that proves that anything of me exists beyond “lights out” and the final mental synapse has fired.  I think most belief systems originated out of a fear of death.  I am a human.  A grain of insignificant sand on the cosmic beach.  I make a little impact for awhile when I am alive and carry on in memories of loved ones until the last is forgotten.  Poof.  Wormdirt.  I think alot of this Universal Consciousness sometimes is wishful thinking and human arrogance.  We only have other human experiences to bounce off of and juxtapose and nobody knows the “punchline” until they are dead.  Until then, it is all supposition without a single hard shred of evidential proof of any of it.  Stories.  Like you said.  Stories.  We made them up when we asked “why?” and “who am I?”.  It's living energy playing with living energy and the energy is always there.  Am I conscious of it after death?  Perhaps.  But there is no one living who can prove it.  It's all Brain/Synapse affected psycho babble.  All experience of is of the brain and completely mental.  Any neurosurgeon worth his weight in gold can make you have a religious/spiritual experience with a poke of a needle.  He can seem like a tourrets inflicted mental case or a drooling vegetable with just a poke of a needle and you could not stop him!  Chemically altered experiences in our own minds.  I want to believe in a going on of some sort.  I would love nothing more than the thought of expanding to my fullest potential nothingness and be conscious of it after the body dies.  Logic says a very succinct and emphatic “no”.  I am OK with that.  I appreciate the “now” better with that understanding.  Sorry about the long goddamn response here.  Geezo what a friggin' blabber mouth!

Erik

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

But there is no one living who can prove it.  It's all Brain/Synapse affected psycho babble.  All experience of is of the brain and completely mental.

Now, see, Erik, this is why I figured I could be pretty straight with you. I observed your writings, and while you got your problems, like we all do, you weren't acting like an innocent lost in the stories.

I figure you've developed a taste for the poisons of the real things, and you are suspicious, not credulous. Both of those abilities are really valuable for exploring this stuff.

But you are wrong about the “completely mental” part - you are making a basic error. So here's a question for you - what's the basic error to which I'm referring? 

—

Now, lets go back a few steps, to continue this process of synchronizing our language sets, and cross-referencing our stories.

You gave me two answers to the first two questions. Your first answer wasn't entirely off, you just made an assumption.

I asked, where did the word “enlightenment” come from?

The answer, of course, is that it came from europe. The origins of the idea might be said to go back to the mediterranean basin, but that specific form comes from the renaissance. It's kind of a complementary idea to sainthood - but, if you study it's origins, it's also kind of an anti-christian, anti-church term that was embraced by an emerging class of intellectuals.

Now, when we started translating eastern texts, we used the word “enlightenment” to translate about a half dozen different highly technical words in sanskrit, pali, and a few other languages. In the original writings and stories, those words meant ideas that were very specific. But, we westerners lumped tham all together, and called them all - “enlightenment”.

Do you see what kind of problem that created for us?

So, your first answer, about the origins of certain ideas and stories in ancient india and asia, while it was accurate about the origins of the ideas, was totally wrong about the origins of the word “enlightenment”.

Now, for the second question, a good accurate answer would have been, “Which words? Specify a word, and I'll tell you what it means.”.

So, here are some words - moksha, siddha, samadhi, bodhi, nibbana, nirvana. What were the different models of enlightenment described by these words? And how do they relate to each other?

Now, you might reasonably say to me, you are just playing word games, and if 'enlightenment” is real, it should be obvious and transcend words.

Ahhhh, if only that were the case. But words are completely inherent to enlightenment, the two are inextricably bound together.

—

Let me tell you a joke, that says something about words. Suppose you and I are walking around, and I turn to you suddenly and say, “Holy shit, the semborask is coming, get me the rondoblatz or we are both freekin' dead.”.

How do you keep us from dying?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

My definition of Wisdom is this: The correct application of knowledge

Enlightenment: To see reality as it is

I think Wisdom is an attribute of enlightenment.

Though anyone can use Wisdom, but anyone can't use enlightenment, but the enlightened.

You see people use wisdom to become enlightened. But the other proposition isn't the case.

One can't use enlightenment to become wise, because they are already wise.

By the existential condition of their enlightenment.

Though they can get wiser, and acquire more knowledge

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Zak!

Enlightenment: To see reality as it is

That's pretty close to principle of one of my working definitions. However, no living human can see reality as it is, so I would say something like “To be able to perceive and simulate without filters.”.

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it? ;-}

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Hi Bill


Bill said: 

That's pretty close to principle of one of my working definitions. However, no living human can see reality as it is, so I would say something like “To be able to perceive and simulate without filters”.

Zak
Seeing reality as it is, is only in the context of these “filters” you talk about, otherwise we would see the basic building blocks of being, or non- being all the time since that is ultimate reality.

Enlightenment ultimately indeed is  relative, it's not an absolute reality, it is relative to unenlightenment, or samsara [delusion]

These filters you talk about produce “Samsara” [delusion] or veils, as the Sufis call them. They are produced by “negative energy that is produced by a mis- aligned energy configuration in the soul that humans have evolved to.

All metaphysical systems are attempting to rectify this mis-alignment.

When that happens “enlightenment” is one of the consequences of this.

Also immortality, happiness, peace, goodness etc.. suppose to be in the mix.



Remember “enlightenment” is but a science based on radiation, light, or ultimately energy and its relationship with us.

Read my post theory of enlightenment in another thread here. I explain two theories that are from two major traditions.

I use these as working theories. Not though being attached to them as any dogma