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Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 12, 2006, 12:23 AM:

Well, an “enlightenment system” is any organized body of ideas and work (writing, teachers, and artwork, typically) that teaches a model and method of enlightenment.

Usually you'll find an “enlightenment system” associated with a religion and a culture and a region.

And “enlightenment systems” change over time - they evolve somewhat like living organisms do. So, each enlightenment system tends to have it's roots in some earlier system, and over time it tends to change into some new system.

And, there are 'branches' and 'trunks' for enlightenment systems, a lot like the tree diagram you would draw to show the evolution of life on earth.

For instance, the Vedas, ancient oral transmission books from India, represent one of the oldest 'trunks' of enlightenment ideas.

The vedas evolved (to oversimplify) into Yoga and Buddhism. Yoga and Buddhism are closley related, but they have a radically different idea of what enlightenment means - altho both are rooted in the vedic idea of rebirth, and freedom from rebirth.

Both Yoga and Buddhism seperate into dozens of smaller schools, and each school represents an 'enlightenment system” - an organized teaching of how to acheive enlightenment.

Now, to these eastern models have to be added the christian, judaic, and islamic models - each of these religions has an associated 'enlightenment” teaching, altho in the west the goal is not usually described as enlightenment.

Then you've got bunches of other younger systems, many of which are too young to yet be called an “enlightenment system”, but they share a lot of the qualities of am enlightenment system.

And side systems like taoism, shamanism, confucianism, and a host of other 'isms' that have some kind of enlightenment or self-development teaching, and idea of how to either perfect oneself, or free oneself.

So, basically, it's an organized group of ideas and teachings that claims to be able to produce enlightenment if followed.

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Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Tyrone [no longer around] said Dec 13, 2006, 6:06 PM:

this is a perculiar question, i dont really understand the context behind it?… i was listening to an osho talk today, and someone asked him ''that he is only a beginner and asked if osho could define truth for him. ''

when osho talks,he always sounds like hes about to make a joke about something, i donno, maybe its just the accent. i noticed the same thing with george bush jr. something about the tone of his voice that makes you think hes thinking one thing while he's saying something different.

osho said, ''its good that you say that you're still a beginner–go back!' all the people with advanced knowlege just make more trouble for themselves.

the truth is more about innocence. like how in his last days socrates is reported to have said, 'i know one thing, i know that i know nothing'

but bill i guess ill try to answer the question for the sake of discussion, and just think that both terms are the synomous with each other in the lexicon of spirituality. they seem to be equivalant in my view.(?) is silence better than stillness?

who knows, perhaps…

peace n love guys
n take care

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 13, 2006, 7:18 PM:

Yep, it _is_ a peculiar question.

Kind of a koan.

Or a life and death puzzle.

The terms are not synonyms. You would be hard pressed to argue that they are.

Altho, I think it's very common to think they are synonyms. The meaning(s) of the word “enlightenment”, as we use it in this culture, is rather different from the words used to refer to “enlightenment” by most enlightenment systems.

That's why I inserted all those “What is meant by…” qualifiers.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Tyrone [no longer around] said Dec 15, 2006, 7:36 AM:

well ok, if the question is qualified as a koan, then to which the koan is directed towards, i.e. the introverted mind, or no mind. then both those concepts become void, or empty and so they are equivalent.

i donno. just my opinion.

take care as always.
peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 15, 2006, 3:15 PM:

Well, it's more than a koan, actually.

It's a warning.

But, in order to talk about this, I have to ask, what's your model of enlightenment?

What do you think it means to be enlightened?

“Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and means nothing, really.

So what genuine traditional word world you use for your model of enlightenment?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Tyrone [no longer around] said Dec 15, 2006, 8:49 PM:

well my model of enlightenment is love. more and more love. never ending, never running out. always present.

but id rather not use the word enlightenment unless necessary .from the people i talk to , it just creates a sense of distance and separation which in turn furthers our own fears which stem from our own ignorance

we create so many false enlightenments and false idols, coming from false perfections created by limited expectations

the ignorance of ourselves, creates fear which isolates us into multiple divisions

thats the play of consciousness, its not a bad thing, but its also natural to realise who you are for the sake of happiness. its not outside of us nor is it limited to time and space.
everything and everyone are connected whether they are conscious of it or not. realization or enlightenment is herenow, and even if we think we miss that moment, there's no worries, since this present moment never ends in reality

have a nice weekend
peace

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 19, 2006, 2:55 PM:

Ahhhhhhh…… The “Love” models.

Bhakti enlightenments.

Bhakti is pretty safe. You're liable to hurt others with bhaktis, but you're pretty safe yourself, no great confrontation with reality is an inherent part of the process.

And we live on a planet where hurting others is par for the course, so the moderate liklihood of hurting other with bhaktis is an entirely acceptable risk.

(Compared to the risks of the Moksha models…)

In fact, I think of it as part of bhakti's charm.

Ahhh, sweet Bhakti. Such fond and delicious memories. Everyone should do bhaktis, at least for a while. Ten, twenty years is about right.

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Tyrone [no longer around] said Dec 20, 2006, 9:05 AM:

wow bill, thats a pretty complex cynicism you got going there. let's see if we can untangle it a bit… this love is safe in terms that it is our natural home, but its not safe in terms of illusion. there is MUCH need for healing others, and as i read through the various philosophies, they started to be repeating the same thing, and concluded knowledge by itself is useless.

i couldnt really figure out maya, by discrimination of the mind alone. so i accept the illusion with love and it melts away. i do like your encouargement of bhakti, but should know that bhakti is forever, why limit it and judge it with time? no need. the jnani in the same regard is not limited by time and space.

take care

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 20, 2006, 12:03 PM:

Yes, complex cynicism. It's not really cynicism, at least not in the sense that word is used in the modern conversation, but I understand that it would seem that way.

It's more like stoicism, technically.

But I'll accept the “complex cynicism” labeling, it's close enough, and does capture much of the spirit of the perspective.

So how's your bhakti going?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Tyrone [no longer around] said Dec 20, 2006, 8:05 PM:

sure, stoicism is fine. and its interesting cuz i started out with more of a philosophical approach and most of my friends online were hare krishnas and i dont really get what was so interesting about their stories of krishna. but eventually the bhakti wore off on me.

these days ive been pondering about beliefs and their validity. because i would struggle with my parents if they didnt see my perspective. and i would think if god is in all of us, and we're all connected, why is it so hard for us to simply work together? eventually it ocurred to me that the self which is all of us can 't be perceived by beliefs

in one of her video satsangs, gangaji related to us that we should be able to accept good and bad parts of ourselves. or else it builds up a facism in us. at this the audience got a little shocked. and she continued that yes there can be a spiritual facism just like a political facism. thinking that we should we guard the good and kill the bad, just propogates more 'wars'.

so we dont need to train ourselves like animals always beating ourselves up, everytime we make mistakes and letting ourselves learn out of guilt and pain conditioning. thats why some people will hate you even if you love them. because they hate themselves; to go on and love them dislodges their ego of 'i hate myself' so they will make it a point to hate you to make sure that you hate them as well to confirm their existence of 'i hate myself'

but like plato says, 'no one knowingly does evil, for if they were to realise what was right they would pursue that path' because if you investigate the sociopaths and any kind of delinquet all of them have some kind of justification so that their consciounce wouldn't bother them.

but if we're aware of the problem, the answers and solutions come immediately. not necessarily in our timely expectations, but the solution is in the problem nevertheless. all sages and teachers of truth have been the embodiments of love and compassion. doesnt matter what path theyve come to realise the self.

seeing brahma's sons wanting to realise the self, shiva had compassion on them and incarnated into dakshinamurti and stayed in absolute mouna. with the guidance of silence alone, the brahmins realised the self.

even ramana when he would tell stories like this would well up with emotion. the love never ends, nor finds limitations in all of reality and consciousness.

take care
peace and love

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 22, 2006, 12:36 PM:

What you just wrote seems a little intellectual and theoretical to me - so-and-so said this, and so-and-so says that.

Sure, there have been plenty of great bhakti practicioners in the past, and all kinds of wise guys, but I already know all that, and at this point it kinda bores me.

The thing that is really interesting is the actual work actual people are doing nowadays - and not the living “experts” and the living famous types, they are the most boring of all.

The only thing that matters is what ordinary folks are doing and trying, because that's where the real hard work is getting done.

So, how's your bhakti going?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

mu said Dec 22, 2006, 10:34 PM:

Interesting conversation…

Tyrone you said: “…because if you investigate the sociopaths and any kind of delinquet all of them have some kind of justification so that their consciounce wouldn't bother them.”

It is my understanding that a 'true' sociopath operates without so-called “conscience”. (No remorse, no guilt, no inner sense of “right or wrong” etc.) That is one of the interesting things about people who fall into this psychological category. They do not feel any need to justify what others would consider the most heinous acts, because they do not have the 'moral compass' or whatever one wants to call it, or a 'conscience' to assuage. They are not lying awake at night guilt-ridden or inventing justifications, they are too busy sleeping like a baby.

I'm talking about the authentic 'sociopath' (used to be called psychopath). Delinquents and others may, as you say, require excuses or other forms of self-medication to help them sleep at night.

~mu

PS: I looked up the term conscience at Wikipedia… here's what it says:

Conscience is a faculty or sense that leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral precepts, or which informs our moral judgment before performing such an action. Such feelings are not intellectually reached, though they may cause us to 'examine our conscience' and review those moral precepts, or perhaps resolve to avoid repeating the behaviour. Commonly used metaphors refer to the “voice of conscience” or “voice within”.]

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Tyrone [no longer around] said Dec 23, 2006, 6:18 PM:

well, yes. i agree reading all my philosophy books just gradually started to tear away at my brain, even these days, im going to university and i refuse to take a philosophy class, because i think it would be useless. i love to go the library and see which new philosophy/religion books are out. my process is that i usually like to see the cover, read the back, and then flip randomly through the pages just glancing at the paragraphs. after a while it all seems like the same stuff eh? well, ya, because it is all the same. there's nothing really new, just different patterns of the same consciousness.

but as i explaining to you before, that being in sat sanga with my hare krishna friends, their love of god wore off on me in a signifcant way. i love this little book i have of ramana maharshi and his stories, small enough to fit in your back pocket and long enough to fill a good read throughout the weekend. one of the most striking things he spoke about after one of his stories is that , someone after hearing this kind of story, who doesnt feel that sense of awe or hair raising feeling after hearing these stories, must surely have a heart of stone, i dont know how they keep from melting!

you have asked me again for my bhakti. its quite simple: my bhakti is you. whe else would i be talking to you. truly if you were some ignoramus that just wanted to hurt others and hurt themselves you would be somewhere else not here. the main thing my guru taught me about religion is the ones that focus on limitations rather than freedom have very little use. to accept all and nothing , is where i find my freedom. thats my bhakti. if you mean how was my day, i could say i donated some blood yesterday and today i worked with people with special needs, one of the guys was pretty anxious today and we had to restrain him from running out of the house. but sorry for the misunderstanding because if you say how is your bhakti i would very rarely talk about my bhakti as pertaining to only this body and this personality which is writing to you right now. even though beliefs can be dangerous, it still stays with me that everyone does everything for the sake of love and it all differs depending on the multitude of varying interpretations.

but last time i was rude, i shouldve also asked, bill, how is your bhakti, your devotion, that which lights up your life and brings you up from your downs?

and by the way its good that you have model of enlightenment resembles that of stoicism. theres some good heritage there. that zeno guy was inspired by the cynics, and the cynics got their ideas from their discipleship of socrates, who in turn was inspired by naked ones in india. so ya, i guess we're all connected hey? ! :)

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Jewdist said Jun 26, 2007, 8:24 AM:

Plato was wrong about a lot of things. His Platonic Ideal in which anything, a chair, beauty, whatever, could not be perceived directly because we sit in a cave and can only see the shadows of Reality, not its Platonic Ideal. (I always picture “chair” and “beauty” hanging out in the Cosmos with a tag that says “Ideal”).

I love what you say about “spiritual fascism”. And it's not just what we love/hate about ourselves but also about others.

As for animals, we are animals. Just with larger brain capacity. Interestingly enough, there are insects that have far more advanced systems of communication. Bees tell each other where the pollen is by triangulating the sun, the flower, the hive, and then dance that information to each other.

What hubris we human have, thinking we are the world's guardians. Mother Nature laughs at her latest offspring. Making mistakes is EXACTLY what evolution is. What works survives, what doesn't dies off.

I'm reminded of Prometheus, doomed to eternal pain by Zeus, for having discovered the technology of fire. We build bombs, we will suffer. We build machines and think we have dominion over the planet. Harumph!

It's difficult to work together, because we are not a world community, but groups divided by history, ethnicity, language, territoriality, and the genetic disposition to want our personal DNA to thrive at the expense of somebody else's DNA. Lots of male animals kill the offspring of other males so that their DNA will survive.

Isn't that called war?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Dec 19, 2006, 2:59 PM:

edited to add (this post didn't end up where I expected ut to go - it was just a correction of a typo in a post made last week…)

So what genuine traditional word world you use for your model of enlightenment?

correction:

So what genuine traditional word would you use for your model of enlightenment?

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Jewdist said Jun 21, 2007, 9:39 AM:

Enlightenment” is a modern pop culture word, and means nothing, really.

You are so brave to write that on Zaadz. And of course, I agree. One man's Enlightenment is another man's boredom.

As for the truly great Masters, they don't want or expect deification. If anything, they hope to get rid of you to think for yourself.

I also believe that great teachers learn far more from their students than the students do from the teacher.

My model of enlightenment is being a busy bee, hopping from flower to flower of the huge garden of religion/philosophy/science/mysticism, finding the juiciest pollen and fertilizing my mind with it.

Om Tat Sat……………THIS IS IT!

Re: Which is better, Enlightenment or Wisdom?

Bill said Jun 23, 2007, 12:46 PM:

…brave to write that on Zaadz

Yeah, that's got some truth to it - but ordinarily I would only be so honest inside the “magic circle” of this pod, here on zaadz, so it ain't that brave. ;-}

I know many people aren't interested in really examining “enlightenment”, and they have a lot invested in the emotional ideal of “enlightenment”, and it would be a failure of compassion to try to force them to look at it in different ways.