Past, Present, Future.

Now I know this may sound crazy, and I have NO proof whatsoever, but I have this feeling that the Past, Present and Future are all happening at the same time.
 I am no scientist and have no physics background, so I haven't the slightest clue on how to go about seeing if it is a possibility, but somewhere deep inside me it seems so right….
 Any comments??
Jack

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Neither time nor space exists for the man who knows the eternal.
     Space and time are real for the man who is yet imperfect and space is divided for him into dimensions, time into past, present and future. He looks behind him and sees his birth, his acquisitions, all that he has rejected. That past is being continually modified by the future which is ever being added to it. From the past man turns his eyes to the future where death, the unknown, the darkness, the mystery, await him.
     Fascinated by these he can no longer detach himself from them. The mystery of the future holds for him the fulfillment of all his desires, which the past has denied to him, and in his dreams he flies to that brilliant horizon where happiness must exist, where he must seek it.
     No one will ever pierce the infinite mystery of the future - impenetrable in its evanescent illusion - neither magician, prophet nor God! But on the contrary it will be the mystery which will engulf man, which will not let him escape, which will break the mainspring of his life.
     Life is not to be approached through the past, nor through the mirage of the future. Life cannot be approached through intermediaries, nor conquered for another.
     That discovery can only be made in the immediate present - by the individual for himself and not for others - by the individual who has become the eternal “I”. That eternal “I” is created by the perfection of the self - perfection in which all things are contained, even human imperfections. Man, not yet having achieved that condition of life in the present, lives in the past which he regrets, lives in the future where he
     hopes, but never in the present which he ignores. This is the case with all men.
     Balanced between the past and the future, the “I” is poised as a tiger ready to spring, as an eagle ready to fly, as the bow at the moment of releasing the arrow.
     This moment of equilibrium, of high tension, is “creation.” It is the fullness of all life, it is immortality.
     The wind of the desert sweeps away all trace of the traveller.
     The sole imprint is the footstep of the present. The past, the future… sands blown by the wind.

     J. KRISHNAMURTI 1929
    

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Jack

What you say is that you haven't the slightest clue on how to go about seeing if it is a possibility, but somewhere deep inside you it seems so right….

Let us try to put it in the simplest manner.

if you try being completely honest about this; what is time - what is yesterday, today and tomorrow and what is the far away history and the far away future -

if you are completely serious about this question and if you really want to know what it is

then  What do you see?

Aren’t you seeing yourself wondering ? and aren’t you projecting all that ? and where in which place is your projecting taking place ?

Now be very serious here - Is there time apart from your projecting time ?

Re: Past, Present, Future.

great stuff guys, I will get back to ya later…

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Jack,

What is your description of time?

Thanks,

Paul

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Past & Future are constructs of our imagination/mind. Like everything else, they exists only because we experience the Universe via our senses & perceptions… we construct models, language, metaphors etc. to help us make sense of the world. They limit us yet we need them to develop our understanding before we can let go of them with wisdom… it is a process… with a general sequence…

The Present is Passing by every moment, instantly becoming the Past. There is no time… for Fear, Worry, Guilt or Blame. Instead, just learn from the Past, be Inspired by the Future, & take action in the Present. Our Point of Power is in the Present & the Point of the Present is to take Positive, Constructive Action…

“Yesterday is History. Tomorrow is a Mystery. Today is a Gift. That is why it is called the Present.” ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi Jack,

If the material world does not exist and that it is only an imagination (our creation), it is not imagined only for the present but is imagined for the past and future.

Let's put it that way: we make dreams at night. And in no dream you think that it has no past. You believe that this dream has its past and its future, don't you. It's a complete story. Sometimes it is so perfectly organized that you are surprised by its complexity.

So why not thinking that “this real word” is a dream as well.. We may all be in a spiritual state somewhere in the universe and are being co-creating this “what we call world”. 

In that sense, as in the dreams, while creating it, we create it with its past and future. It's a whole package. 

And we make it moment by moment.  It is not a continuous story. Not at all. We have not studied, made a career. And the past lives are not our previous lives but our previous imagined worlds…

It's fantastic isn't? Yes indeed. Let's fantasize.

With love, Bilgi

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Well, because in your mind, they do happen at the same time. Or do you want to state that you are thinking now, in the past and in the future at the same time?

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Linear time is only percievable to us because we live within it.  Outside of our own minds, though, there is no such thing as time. 

Think about it.  The dates we use are pretty arbitrarily chosen - B.C.E. is just Before the Common Era, and that was chosen by some Gregorian monk.  What is it that the clocks and calendars are really measuring?  Just the slightest tilt of the Earth's axis and we would have a huge problem setting our little day planners to rights.  Or put in another way, think of time as a limitless mass - how many different ways can it be measured?  How do we know that we're not moving backwards or forwards?  How many parts can we break it into in order to measure limitlessness?

What will really bake your noodle is whether in your next incarnation, you choose to go back in time and become someone you read about in this incarnation. 

Namaste
Thea

Re: Past, Present, Future.

You all bring out some GREAT points, Thank you, I need to read them and really allow your thoughts to completely sink in and penetrate this mind of mine:)
It all makes sense to me because I don't think you can measure time anyway.
Yes a day is 24 hours, 60 min per hour, 60 seconds per min.
 But is that really a way to measure time?
 Let's say you have to finish a difficult puzzle in a minutes time, that minute seems like it goes so fast, but take that same minute and put a person in a dire time of their life waiting for that minute to end and it seems like it last an eternity, or how many of us have been in a automobile accident, it happens in slow motion, or even to hold your breath for a minute and it seems so long.
How many time have we waited for a event in our life and it seems like it will never come, but then on the other side after it has happened, you see that it wasn't such a long wait after all…

Great stuff I think:)
 Love and Blessings
Jack

Re: Past, Present, Future.

In typical Bleep fashion I am going to cross back and forth between science and mysticism here so please be patient, but I have come to look at it this way.

1) The totality of infinity is God or the God Process, the One, etc.
2) Infinity is composed of an infinite number of finite holes. We measure the finite parts using the metaphors of time-space, or location + duration.
The in evitable conclusion here brings up a paradox well known to spirituality, infinite-moment.

The mysteries of this paradox explain that all incarnations, all events, all possibilities the infinite mass of potenial that the all exists within (God, Shiva, Kali, The One) is occuring simultanously, it is our mind which requires the sphere of sensation so that we can order this infinite number of finites so as to precieve them distinctly.

Namaste

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Thanks Drake, for making this paradox explicit. I would love to hear more about it.. Or do you know any article or web site on it.

Namaste, Bilgi

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi Drake & Bilgi,

You might want to take a look at The Four Seasons of Spirit: Spheres of Transformation. This summarises my philosophy of life & covers what you just shared.

With regards to the Present moment… I'd like to cal it the Precious Present.

Imagine a long line…

_______________________________________________________________________

Notice our Past goes all the way back from the point where the 't' in Past ends… This is also the point where the 'F' in Future soon begins…

__________________Past . Future___________________________________________

By comparing our Present to our Past & Future, this simple line helps illustrate why our Present is so Precious…

I'm also inclined to add that as the connecting point between our Past & Future, the Present is our platform for Co-Creating Collective Reality.

Namaste,
Alex Chua

Re: Past, Present, Future.

interesting theory.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

hi!

Past, present, and future are interconnected which each other.

Our past manifests on the kind of person we are now. This could became our foundation in living. We carry the lesssons we had learned in the past as we grow. But, it doesn't necessarily mean that our past  must control our life. Actually, it depends on us how we will going to handle our present…  We could only used our past as our guide as we go through our journey..

And are future?!
Hmm… Only the Creator of our past knows our future. Just like in an invention… only the inventor knows eveything about he invented. Knowing that our God is our Creator, we better work today in accordance with His purpose in our life in order for us to succeed. He redeemed us from our past!

We don't know what will happen next.. we don't know our future.. but, our priorities today could dictate what kind of future we could have.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

It is true for me that the past, present and future are all happening now. This means that the experience you just had 2 min ago or 1 hour ago or 5 years ago are all happening now. And 2 min or 1 hour or 5 years from now are happening now. I also might add that all possibilities are happening now for example you have two ways to get home from work you choose one way and another you choose the other way. For every choice you make another one of you(s) is/are making all other possible choices

So this brings me to another question:

If this were the case and all there is is this monent and all possibilities are happening in this moment do we have FREE WILL!

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi Gavin,

I share RG's view that we have Free Will. We may be powerless to change the Past but we can learn from it with Clarity & Wisdom.

The Present may hold infinite Potential, but upon the application of Free Will & the natural interaction of everyone's Free Will, all Possibilities collapse into One Collective Reality.

Namaste,
Alex Chua

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hey Alex and all,

This is why I believe and don't believe in free will.

God or Godfield is all things, most will agree with this. Nothing is outside of God. Now how can God know how glorious it was if God were all things and all things that are not. God has nothing to compare itself to. God can't say I'm over here and what's over there is ??? because God is over there.  

So for God to experience its full glory, God created (virtual) reality (the Big Bang). Why? To experience all possibilities of what God is…everything. God is the Universes that are created and collapse almost instantly, God is the universes unable to attaint intelligent life, and god is the universes of our reality. All possibilities happen; to say otherwise is to say God can't experience it's complete self. The purpose of this life is to experience it, nothing more nothing less. God can't experience that which God is until God experience that which God is not. And even that creates a paradox because we are a part of God we just don't remember. God did a wonderful thing! God forgot that God was God to experience what its like to be God. :-) God I love using the word God. (Please forgive me in my multiple use of the word god, I just don't like calling god it, he, or she.)

Do we have free will? Yes, on a higher level we do. Being apart of the Godfield we decide what life we wish to live and then we are born in this world to experience that life we have chosen. Now if we came into this world with this knowledge, what would be the point?

But in this reality do we have free will? No, the deed is done.

But that is my view and would like to hear others.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi Gavin,

After reading the forthcoming posts from the rest of our friends here, I'm inclined to clarify that I am not arguing against the nature of time. I can understand your perspective on time. In fact, if I were to superimpose the Four Seasons of Spirit onto our perspective on time, your presentation comes closer to Source, while my presentation is more symbolic & structural but by its very nature less expansive. Yet this expands our awareness to a certain level that may be prerequisite to that ultimate awakening & reunification with Source.

What is vexing for me is your association  of Free Will  with the nature of time. I see not definite link here & the result seems to be more confusion rather than clarity.

You have expressed that you “believe and don't believe in free will.” In a way, I agree to this also.

However, I find it hard to agree with your final statement “But in this reality do we have free will? No, the deed is done.”

What I want to assert is that we have Free Will, enough of it to influence our life path in significant ways.

There is Divine Will & there is Free Will.

There is the pact we made & the plan our Higher Self laid out for us, & there is the path we actually travel as we make choices along our journey of life…

How aligned our life path is with the Divine plan depends on how attuned we are to our Higher Self (Genius, Guardian, Divine Will etc.)

Along the way, we learn life's lessons & are guided by synchronicities toward fulfilling our Life Purpose.

I'm not suggesting that we have total Free Will… what I want to emphasise is that we have enough Free Will to influence our life path in significant ways.

Living life with Purpose is about expressing our Genius in the most Fulfilling, Positive & Productive way. It is about choosing with our Free Will to express Divine Will in the most Fulfilling, Positive & Creative way.

I choose this worldview for the simple reason that it is liberating & empowering.

Namaste,
Alex Chua

Re: Past, Present, Future.

hi Kavin , how are you my friend, please allow these words;

if past and present and future are memories, option or plans - in all that, they are 
thought products dipped in or wrapped by emotions and will, opinion choices
and so on.

now for me, the seeing that all occurs now, is a side affect of |  being |  and being is
not a thought product, unless you cannot tell between thought of being and |  being |
and  | being  is what we  are  |  never what we think at all

now if  |  being |  is what  | we are |  - there is no meaning to any thought and you are not past or  present or future apart neither together in the now or any other combination which all are thought products. instead  |  you are  |   =  |  now  |  that's all but  this |  now  |   is not of time,  in fact it is not of any order neither it belongs to any hierarchy and it means nothing but  |  i am now  |  which is | a one being undivided and meaningless to thought | but otherwise full with | life|

(i use |this| to say that it is not a word)

In |  being | there is no time, neither any mixture or gathering of times - no now and
nothing with meaning whatsoever, yet it is the most extraordinary phenomena, that | we are |

Now if i am to ask my self if there is free will - well, on one hand what do i need
freedom while |  i am   being  | - but if you look closely  into | being | you find that
|  you are |  free will, just like if you looked the trees, you are | trees |

A hundred percent proof  free will is practiced in | being |  and non of it can be
spelled - unless you are a great artist, a musician or a great poet, philosopher or a great sage or a person who | is | because if  | you are |  everything that  | you do |  | is  |

hey,  that was fun :)  thank you

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I'm good thank you Yosyama,

 

You know Yosyama for me this moment and all past and future moments is like holding up pen or pencil length wise in front of your eyes and view it as a time line of our universe. Then take the pencil or pen and turn it so that it is pointing at you. This is the moment of now!

G

Re: Past, Present, Future.

With me Gavin, NOW is the being most dreadful & neurotic fear that i can imagine and with staying very alert to what it really is  it breathes in and out boundless and warm happiness

bless

 YY

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I love these discussion, and science I dislike them myself, I will not mingle with the dozens of dimension profuced by physics. As the pen Time-line is one of them.

The thing is, In physiscs, we do have some clue, why the phenomina time occurs. This is because due to the laws of enthropy and thermodynamics. We cannot or create anything in a more ordened state then we dis-order other factions. In a sence, god saw it was good, en because he took 7 days, and not a single moment, he created time, and thereby the inevitiably doom, that all good would one day be spread into either a big crush, or a big poof, where the chaos has reached a perfect state?

As the matter of fact, I am going to postulate something totally new here:
(which I can't I am sorry, but after typing it I realise its value, sorry, I will narrate it differently)

Then perhaps time good in fact change it's route, and everything that happened will happen again… but then in the opposite direction…
this would meen, that yes, all of our time is pre-destined, because the timeline goes only one way, and if that way is the same for both direction. (there is no need to say that looking at the same pen from the right, is a different pen when you look at it from the left) Our entire timeline is already written down.
But there is one fundemental difference, even in this science.
There is nothing that tells us, why the timeline was made like this in the first place.
This reminds me of the reduction of the wavefunction,
A change, even if our entire timeline is only based on one change. There has to be a countable number of changes that must take place for any state of order to decay into chaos.
It is a mathematical, physical and spiritual law. There is always a countable number in between the nothings and everyhtings!

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hay Domus how goes it?

My point with the pen timeline is to see the timeline as linear line of events. After turning it so that all you are looking at is the point if the pen giving meaning that everything is happening now.

This is your pen:

—————-future——————————-present—————————past————————-

Look at it head on and all you see is a point. Now! 

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I'm not sure if I'm repeating anything said earlier, but I happened across this topic and it is something that I've been reading about and pondering as of late. I came across a quote by Albert Einstein from a letter he wrote to the family of a friend who had passed away:

“Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi Jack, G' Day All,

I believe that time as a linear concept helps us understand it in relation to our lifetime,

“we cling to the idea of real time- a time that flows and is divisible into past present and future. Our belief in the linear real time underlines our basic assumptions of health and disease, of living and dying. But this kind of thinking is tied to an old science” (Dr. Larry Dossey, Space time and Medicine)

In Creative Health by Deepak Chopra he goes on to say that Einstein rejected linear time in his general theory of relativity (page 100), we create time as a mental device.

When you see life as experiences instead of time things change, we have had similar emotions for a long time, you may be able to see how someone feels by looking at them. It is their experience at one time that is unique, I would suggest, not the time itself.

This is like an Australian Aboriginal Dreaming- not stories of how the past became, but endless stories for all time- that is the dreaming.

Our cells are ever changing and dynamic, they allow us to experience and be part of a larger thing, trust yourself Jack, your instincts are good!

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Yes true, time is a proven mental concept.
Due to relativity we know that time depends on specific properties. for instance, the astronauts inside the space station will in fact age less, then their children here on earth. This is proven with identical atomic clocks. (rather precise as the matter of fact).
You see, time in a static opbject is dependent on the increase of chaos around him, and by the sum of forces that are presenting is environement. (a decrease in chaos)
That means that if for instance voyager spacecraft no longer sends clear messages, this could meen that his inner clock is changed. and that the messages are either sped up, or slowed down. Time is very relative. But its relativity, is of no conceirn in our modest lives.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Quite aside from the fact that if we could travel at the speed of light then time would slow, we are made of ageless atoms and our genes have also been going a long time. They will continue to as well.

It's not without reason that I treat all people as family. We are soil and rock, we are tree and water. Gas? I breathe too.

Right I'm off. Very interesting subject, and largely personal choice I guess.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

No, actually if we travel with the speed of light, time would stop. Relativily seen, if time had a speed, it would be that of light.
And sorry, but most atoms are not ageless. They change every day, and even the atoms where you are made of today, weren't here 5 billion years ago, they didn't exist yet. Neither were they created during the big bang.
Literally, Nothing lasts forever.
but sometimes, something comes along.. ;)

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hey Domus,

I think what Happi meant was traveling closer and closer to the speed of light you slow down. And I think she may have meant the small things like strings (energy) the harmony of the universe. The building blocks of life and all matter and energy, dark or not. Energy which last forever always and in all ways.

G

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Yes, energy lasts forever, but what is energy? Doesn't it vanish if we use too much of it? (no-off course not) It spreads out, into a big soup. A big blur. but that takes about 200 billion years so… not much to care about.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

If time existed, but it does not, so really 200 billion years has already happened. I'm not talking science now Domus. I'm talking beyond the reality we live now, which was created to experience all possibilities.

G

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Yes, but the reality you live in, the only reality you will ever be able on conseeving, is that, which resides in your head. True, we are here to experience, a lot. But as long as time is something created by our brain, and we are bound to follow that brain, there is no need to say that our reality knows no time.
If anyone's reality would not now time, Why do they die? If we know that time is an illusion why do we age? I say, because we are bound to the reality our fysical brain grants us.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I don't have time now but I will respond Domus and thanks for the great discussion.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Domus you are only looking at this from a scientific point of view. You seem to be speaking for everyone on Zaadz in what you post. We don't have to be bound to our brains or bodies.

Our bodies including our brains are a vehicle, a biological machine. Our soul is the witness/observer of vehicle.

From the day we are born we are conditions based on our surroundings. We develop an ego which is created due to the repeated patterns of past events. We will continue to live this life of the ego you describe above. But there are some who have found and are seeking to break free of the ego. And those who have done so in the past and present will tell you they experience much, much more than the reality we are use too and you describe.

If you have not meditated before, I suggest you look into starting and then you may understand there is more to life than just what we observe with our eyes and brains.

G

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I honeslty do not think We have a disagreement here. True, my last sentence should be revised, we are not always bound to the reality the brain gives us. It is only always present.
When I mean the realiry the brain grants you, I do not mean, only the Ego.
This is a poor way of describing your brain.
Yes, without a soul, are body don't really do anything. Wo wouldn't really live. and just sit without expression, until our body stops. But remember, that even at meditating, or at any high state of enlightment, you are still bound to return to your body, as long as you want to live, even if you reach to a state of pure enlightment, and you no longer need your body. Would you decide to let it die? That question itself, or more, it's individual answer tells us more about our enlightement, then our experiences.

Please note that I do not describe reality, only explain what science thinks of time, in my own words.

The Reality I am used to, is far different from the reality I hear others around me describe. In fact I have only met one person in my entire life so far, who thinks the same about it. My 'ego' never lived any longer then my 17th birthday, It never fully lead my life. And I do not need it. I have meditated much before, focus myself on one thing at the same time, or on an abundance that far exceeds what any conscious state could ever handle.

In every case. I woke up. And as long as I get into that state, or get out of it again, my brain sees for me, thinks for me, smells for me. My brain is the essential part of my being, until I do no longer return. I do not know, if it is my soul speaking to me, or the eighty percent of my brain that I can't activly put to use.  I don't know. But it works. And whether it is because of my soul or brain, I don't care, as long as I know how to use it, and enjoy it. All I know, is that without my brain, I can't. Never.
Don't confuse Ratio with Brain. (if you do) Or with logic. Because they are not the same.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I am in a library where about 100 different people are using 100 computers…
This is a great example of past, present and future..

Take a second and put yourself in this position….

Some students are printing papers for there next class.
Some are writing a paper.
Some are researching information for an upcoming test.
Some are looking at colleges.
Some are Myspacing.
Some are e-mailing, communicating to others what happened, and what will happen.
I'm zaadzing, completely focused on the present and this idea of past, presnt. and future. Some are buying stuff.
Some are planning events.
Some are just web dancing.
Small and large groups of friends are gathered around some computers.

I couldnt even list all the possibilites of what everyone is doing because you can literally go a million ways on the web…Past, Presnt, and future…
 
Yet we are all in the same place, occupying the same space and time..
Therefore the past, present, and future are all happining at the same time.
Does that make sense??

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi there. Right, just caught up with the thread since last time…

Yep Gypsy, I agree, and sometimes I try to imagine what is happening at one moment all over the world.

Thanks Gavin for trying to looking positively at what I was trying to say too.

Here are a few more pieces of 'evidence' to show that I'm not totally loony, but yes, perhaps I should have said, protons, neutrons and electrons rather than atoms.

From: http://www.geography4kids.com/files/land_recycling.html

' Recycling isn't a new idea. Nature recycles all of the time. We have a whole section on different biogeochemical cycles than happen across the Earth. Nature doesn't use a carbon atom and then throw it away. Carbon atoms (and all atoms) are used and recycled. They are used by different organisms right away and sometimes left in the Earth to be used again in millions of years. Nature knows there's only so much stuff on Earth and if it doesn't find ways to recycle, there will be no life.'

Also from: http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=3971636472583&lang=en-GB&mkt=en-GB&FORM=CVRE4

'The total energy of the universe is constant. Energy can be transferred by collisions in chemical and nuclear reactions, by light waves and other radiations, and in many other ways. However, it can never be destroyed. '

Re: Past, Present, Future.

This is great too, it came from another Zaadzter's homepage:

One of my really good friends, Quincy, has given me this book called “I Am That” by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:
“The real does not die, the unreal never lived. Once you know that death happens to the body and not to you, you just watch your body falling off like a discarded garment. The real you is timeless and beyond birth and death. The body will survive as long as it is needed. It is not important that it should live long.”

Time travel is what happens when you look at the stars, love as much as you can, apologise and never do it again. Big smiles!

Re: Past, Present, Future.

:S I'm sorry I have to contradict that as a astro- physicist. You see, everything we esentially perceive is the past. For it is impossible for our eyes, airs, skin and nose to directly perceive. (I do not know that about the (perhaps actively-entanglend) brain) What you see on the screen is past aswell, only then a few microseconds. It isn't time travel. Time travel would be, a change in relative time. that means, travel towards a planet which is 2 lightyears distant, send a message to earth when in the far future, and back to earth you still have to wait 3 years to receive it. Sadly, if we could travel that fast, everyone you would have know, probably is dead :S

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I think you should stick to cycles, though it may seem weird, even Neutrons and protons don't live forever. This doesn't mean they do not cycle. The point I want to make clear, is that in nature, nothing really lasts forever. And therefore you, as a part of nature, cannot assume anything in your life to be eternal, or everlasting. If you accpet this, you will enjoy it while it is still there, because you do not have to question its comming absence.

Absolute, There is a constant amount of energy. Only the way it manifests itself differs. actually we can only measure this energy in gravitational pull, because other forms of energy either get piled up into a black hole, or get so spread out, we cannot detect it.

Yes, recycling is part of the life on earth. And everything there even is. There is no no-recycling. It is just as imaginary as time. But do we put it to use? that is rather the question. Even heaps of garbage and even toxic waste will eventually be recycled by nature, but it is then no longer of use to us humans. Eventually we can use everything, and recycle everything, and in theory, we will never run out of recyclable resources. As long as we have the energy to re-use it. Ironically, the best sources of energy are those of nature. Such as the tide, the sun and the wind. (and hundreds more, looking at my countries sometimes freak, originality) The more we spoil nature, the more we kill our selves.

But that has been said for centuries already, and few really did listen.

That,  Is too bad.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Hi Jack -

Just happened to take a look at my good buddy Alex's main pod here.

What an EXTRAORDINARY feeling to have!  As I Buddhist, I deeply believe that what is termed “The Three Existences” (past, present and future), are all contained in the present moment.  Based on Quantum Theory, and as revealed in the WTB…movie, this is basically the current understanding in the scientific world.

I believe that the experience of such a dimensional shift (I had my first one over 30 years ago, actually) is something that belies a grander, greater reality than is subject to “proofs”.

It is in the experiencing that we know, now, no?!

JAred 

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Yep!

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Gosh, I am finding astro physics like a brick wall. I thought that when you looked at the stars you could see things years away. Wrong again eh?

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Well not that wrong, the stars you see, could well no longer exist the moment we see them. So in a sence you could call it time travel. But it isn't because relative you will always see that star years younger then they are, to themselves. And the distance is expressed in lightyears, because that is the distance light travels in a year. But we see much more, at a supernova for instance, we see the flash first, then about a minute later, we will receive ultra energetic particles. which, originated at the same moment, but didn't arive at the same time due to difference in time. But you, as a person can 'travel' through time aswell. (though it would be a one way trip) If you live in the ISS space station for about a year or 20. you will actually have traveled (realtive to the people on earth) a whole minute back in time!
But since you are standing still, you don't travel through time, relative to the people around you. (very accuratly, your head is actually younger then your feet, but only a little)
so, relativly you are travelling through time every day. But you are looking at ancient broadcast of stars (a bit like an old movie)

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Most people are familiar with the two slit experiment. They have preformed the same experiment on a larger scale so they can measure to see if we have an effect on the past and so far it has proven we do. As soon as we observe the experiment we cause the wave to collapse into a particle blah, blah, blah. But on a larger scale we see that by the very act of observing it and causing it to collapse into the one possibility, we also cause the past to change. Instead of taking all possible paths in takes only one.

Some will argue that really what is happening is that all other possibilities just disappeared and we didn't really effect the past, but that view is a minority.

As far as us affecting the future well that just simple, every choice we make in the present affects the future.

G

Re: Past, Present, Future.

This discussion brings to mind Professor Stephen Hawking's well known philosophical query: “If we can remember the past; why can't we remember the future?”

Today is, and for that I am grateful - to know now.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Well, actually as far as I know, that is what happens at any scale.  The two slit experiment, existed, before the die-hard quantum mechanics existed. I have done it myself asweel, my slits were (about half a millimeter wide) and 3 centimeters high. And it was beautifull. (then we did some with laserlight, which was even more beautifull, but that isn't the matter)
Your mind is much more powerfull, then most people dare to admit.

(maybe it is because they are afraid what there mind will do to them, when there deepest thoughts become true…)

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Think how powerful our minds have the potential to be and then multiply that by an infinite number. That is how powerful our souls can be and already are.

G

Re: Past, Present, Future.

There is no such thing as the past the present and the future. We are living in a state of no time. Time is an illusion. We are living in a state of being. We are here because we are living (not dead). Death is another form of life that can be described as a new state of being. Confused yet?

Cheers,

Paul

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Totally, and we are talking about different concepts of time too:
 
In the physical maybe we are in the most boring sense predetermined. Cause and effect and all that, we have a genetic make up and are going to work a certain way when all of the options are given us. Hence time being all the same- the same story, sooner or later.

We can calculate what will happen, which way a ball will fall, predict how different people will react in certain situations, is this true from a science point of view? until proven otherwise, and I don't it has.

But if the light in us can be called a soul, even if the game plays out, as it will, it is still a difference for us. This is a different experience, personal to us and our efforts to enhance the universe (or not). At any given moment we 'feel' we have chioces, that's not a tangible thing, but it certainly 'feels real'.

That's why I'm happiest when I'm being a me that I can be proud of and unhappy when I 'feel' I have wasted my time! (Past, present, future, or any combination of at once).

Re: Past, Present, Future.

That is a bit disrespectfull way to describe physics (maybe you expeted me, to post this answer :P) If that was the way it was, I would never have taken the time and effort to study it.
If we study the extremes of physics, relativity and quantum mechanics. We see, that the 'physical' is predetermend by your 'soul'. In the litteral meaning of the word. When we go very deep down, we can calculate what will happen, but not how and when. We can only approximate it with probabilities.
Ironically, when somewhere in the begining of the 20th century, when the consciousness forced itself upon physics. We not only 'felt' we have choices. We knew, we had choices…
So, it is tangible.

:) nice Ayé?

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Domus, you know what you said about atoms changing? Well once I read something about a glass of water holding atoms from all over history: for example Issac Newton may of had some of that water in his body at some time. Would this be true or do atoms really change so quickly?

I know that this is somewhat off the track, but as you may be able to tell this is a subject that holds some facination for me, and has some impact on my world views I guess. 

Re: Past, Present, Future.

For the more difficult explantion, an atom is a cloud of possibilities, which is too hard to imagine for your first time. Instead, see it as a universe. With a sun in the middle (nucleus) and planets around it (electrons). the difference between atoms though, is that every time an atomb changes state, or get's hit by light, or when is becoming overly observed by something. Those planets immediatly change orbit. Essentially changing the atom to adabt to the new condition on its outside. Purely speaking, yes some of the mass of that same atom from newton, could be inside of you. but It wouldn't be caring any information on it, to ever even test (if we could) whether it was true or falls.

The world around you is constantly changing, more over, because IT IS the world around you. and you are directly influencing it's outcome. This of course becomes very anoying because it obstructs the objective observations at atomical level.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Thank you very much.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

If one starts to allow one's mind to swing between past ,presence and future ,than you mind shall be entangled into the web of creation of the worldly conditioned mindset  of men of which he think the three dimensions is divided and exists as a matter of fact .


Live under the very moment ,from moment to moment ,with  mindfulness and full concentration ,and  you would see that time is a seamless and is a continuation  surrounding the existence of men ,and his worldy and attached conditions for his conveniences and time space   is” created” by men the conditioned and things such as development ,evolution ,progress and advancement or otherwise come into being , as the understanding  is within the realm of physical or matter perspective and not  concur with the spirittual or mental  demension  as men continue to cling and continue to be obscured by  the mortality of his being .

king

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I think that too.  It makes sense to me for some reason.  :)  

Re: Past, Present, Future.

When I think of time being non-existant, all I simply have to do to grasp it, is to look at my dreams.  Ever noticed we kind of dream in 360 degrees when things all seem to happen at the same time? It even seems in our dreams we see in 360 degrees. Yet our waking minds put them in a mangled chronological order.  It has been scientifically proven that our dreams only last around 6 seconds.  Wow!  You know most of us could agree that we have had dreams that lasted all night.  Yet in our world it is only 6 seconds.  We experience thousands of sensations, events, amounts of time in our dreams in the blink of an eye….no pun intended.  I would challenge any scientist or mystic to say that time is linear after looking at those facts.
Bright Blessings of Love and Light to you all
a

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Funny thing: Time isn't linear. Not since Lorentz, proposed his Lorentz-transformation. Though we cannot simply perceive mor then is possible in quantum time. Then again, I don't think we will ever need that quantum maximum, (it is simply too vast to achieve)

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Ow yes : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation (funny graphics)

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I feel now to be the time to say thanks to Jack (1ofmany) for starting this stimulating discussion. Much appreciation also goes to all our fellow Zaadzster friends who have been engaging in this mind expanding discussion!

Domus Ulixes, Gavin, Happi Ness, Yosyama, Tom Vibemeister, RG, Thea, Bilgi, Existence, JAred, King, Drake, Gypsy, Charlotte Hart & Amy! Thank you all so much for contributing to this collective learning experience!

Amy's post about how we experience 6 seconds of waking time as thousands of sensations & events in dreaming time brings to mind the following…

The movie Waking Life, which I finally finished watching yesterday. In one scene, a women was laying in bed having a discussion with a guy about the experience of time when we dream.

This movie is set in the lucid dream of the lead character so if you do not know what lucid dreams are… here's a free Lucid Dreaming Textbook ;-)

There was a stimulating discussion about time between the lead character & a guy who was playing pin-ball in a club… toward the end of the film… it involves some book of x, Déjà Vu, time being an illusion created by somed demon as a distraction from remembering God, now as the only one instance… eternity… where God is posing a question:

“Do you want to be one with eternity, do you wan to be in heaven?”

& we are all saying…

“no… thank you… not just yet…”

& so time is just this constant saying no to God's invitation…

& that this moving from “no” to “yes” is the One Story in everyone's lives…

I'm leaving out some explainations so go watch it for yourself ya ;-)

Here's a collection of quotations on the film from some websites I just googled:

“Dream Is Destiny.”

“The idea is to remain in a constant state of departure while always arriving. It saves on introductions and goodbyes.”

“Your life is yours to create.”

“When we communicate with one another and we feel that we have connected and we think we’re understood, I think we have a feeling of almost spiritual communion…I think it’s what we live for.”

“I feel that the time has come to project my own inadequacies and dissatisfactions into the sociopolitical and scientific schemes. Let my own lack of voice be heard.”

“I believe reincarnation is just a poetic expression of what collective memory really is.”

“Judge not lest ye be judged.”

“I’d rather be a gear in a big deterministic physical machine than just some random swerving.”

“I want freedom! We have got to realize that we’re being conditioned on a mass scale. Start challenging this corporate slave state.”

“The quest is to be liberated from the negative, which is really our own will to nothingness…To say yes to one instant is to say yes to all of existence.”

“While technically I’m closer to the end of my life than I’ve ever been, I actually feel more than ever that I have all the time in the world.”

“Which is the most universal human characteristic, fear or laziness?”

“There’s no story. It’s just people, gestures, moments, bits of rapture, fleeting emotions. In short, the greatest story ever told.”

“A well-armed populace is the best defense against tyranny.”

“They say that dreams are only real as long as they last. Couldn’t you say the same thing about life?”

“The worst mistake that you can make is to think you’re alive when really you’re asleep in life’s waiting room.”

“You can have so much damn fun in your dreams. And, of course, everyone knows FUN RULES.”

“If the world that we are forced to accept is false and nothing is true, then everything is possible.”

“Whatever you do, don’t be bored. This is absolutely the most exciting time we could have possibly hoped to be alive. And things are just starting.”

“I want real human moments. I want to see you. I want you to see me. I don’t want to give that up. I don’t want to be an ant.”

“I’m not in an objective, rational world.”

“On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion.”

“The ongoing WOW! Is happening right now.”

“You haven’t met yourself yet.”

“It’s sort of a dream within a dream.”

“Doesn’t it make sense that death too would be wrapped in a dream? That after death, your conscious life would continue in what might be called a dream body?”

“It was a gift. Life was raging all around me and every moment was magical.”

“If you’re going to microwave that burrito, I want you to poke holes in the plastic wrapping because they explode and I’m tired of cleaning up your little burrito doings.”

“If you can wake up, you should because someday you won’t be able to.”

“There’s only one instant, and it’s right now, and it’s eternity.”

Source: http://movies.zertinet.com/2001/wakinglifequotes.htm
More: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017/quotes

Free Lucid Dreaming Textbook
Synopsis: This book attempts to teach you the skills that can help you to have lucid dreams — dreams in which you know that you are dreaming. Lucid dreams have been scientifically proven to exist. Being aware that you are dreaming, and still remaining asleep, can give you the ability to control your dreams. Lucid dreaming truly can be a fantastic experience.

First, you will find out a little on what dreaming is from the biological aspect. Then, the book will explain how to improve your dream recall so that you remember more of your dreams. Next, it will explain how to become lucid during dreams, and how to stay lucid. It will also explain how to keep yourself in the dream and prevent it from “fading”. Finally, there will be some suggestions for what you could do within your lucid dreams.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

alex, first thanks for this point of looking at the issue og time
and second for the  Lucid Dreaming Textbookcond  as pdf
here is also the wiki print version link to the book
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lucid_Dreaming/Print_version

yosyama

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Oscar-winning filmmaker enters the Seed Salon to discuss dreams with the Harvard sleep researcher.

Watch Video

Re: Past, Present, Future.

I just wanted to add a few quotes I have found and enjoyed about time:

Energy is Eternal Delight.

                                              William Blake.

There was a young lady from Bright,
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
In a relative way,
And returned home the previous night.

                                                                      Arthur Henry Reginald Buller

If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.

                                                                                                                                        William Blake

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Time is the level of disorder measured within a solar system. Yet time is an illusion. Like music: which gives shape to time, so too does our experiences give us the illusion of some kind of chronological progression? All that is really happening, though, in you, and the universe, is change. We are constantly transforming, that's all: every cell in our bodies are replaced every 7 years. We are not the same people today that we were 7 years ago, not to mention the books we might read in that time frame that will change our consciousnesses.  Indeed, experiences can be enjoyed again and again depending on the emotional addiction to those experiences, or you can create totally new experiences by overcoming those addictions: thus experiences are not dictated by time either, but by you, in the way that you create your own reality. You are the creator, the author of your past, present and future. Follow yourself.

http://www.creator-miracles.com/

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Past is only in our memory. Memory is made up of words associated with images we see personally. The past is subjectively experienced by us all. Even though everyone might have been there, not everyone will agree on what happens. Future events are happening all the time. The present is perpetually becoming the future, and the past is perpetually becoming the present. So therefor the idea that they are all one in the same is not that far fetched.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

“It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards”
   -Lewis Carroll (the Whit Queen to Alice in Through the Looking Glass)

Alex, Waking Life is one of my faves. I love that you included the burrito quote!

And I want to say something about that line in the movie about how we are constantly declining God's invitation – I think maybe declining is a positive choice, that we have this opportunity to use our waking consciousness to affect what goes with us into the dreamtime, to build the kind of soul-consciousness we get to play with in the bigger universe. But at this point we have a baby consciousness that needs to take baby bites of understanding. When I show my 7 year old friend with autism movies that are just too complex (although she's very, very smart!) she shuts down and nothing gets in. I think I'm the same way, and I know that what I take with me at night to expand and play with during that dreamtime depends on what I've truly reveled in during the day. So maybe this declining is our way of maximizing the opportunities we are taking with us when our consciousness gets big enough – and if so, what does it mean that the average American sees 20,000 murders on TV before reaching age 18, or that gloom and doom and agony sell - sell books, newspapers, movies, tv shows and magazines. What we put into our consciousness is what we have to work with, which is why this Zaadz community is so spectacular,

And at the same time, there is also gritty beauty and fertile soil in what is not cute-as-a-kitten experience. A quote from Rob Brezsny: “The dream of a steady-state utopia is anathema to Beauty and Truth Laboratory researchers. We're allergic to any paradise that resembles a spotless shopping mall within the walls of a gated community in heaven.”

So, to weave this back into the web of this discussion thread, if our consciousness is bigger than our perception of time, how do we build the kind of consciousness that will flourish once it's let out of its cage and accepts the invitation to be so complex and fabulous that we can't even imagine what it is we're getting ourselves into? If we can ultimately trancend time, how do we use time in a handy-dandy, positive way to pack our consciousness bags for the trip?

Re: Past, Present, Future.

past present future? where are they?
neither here,nor there,nor anywhereat all.
whats the experience of ?
is it mutable or fixed?
to be hoped its mutable,cos weve as a species made plenty of fixes.

recently wrote to a friend about past present and future,his opinion is quotable..”more crap”
so now i have a new career,as a scatologist,and rhubarb grower.

heres to rhubarb,its improved by angelica,and a nice pastry topping.
trine

Matter Energy Space/Time as an object

Maybe MEST (matter energy space time) is a single cloud/object.  From the outside it looks like a chaotic shifting cloud.  Perhaps consciousness is like a beam experiencing certain points in that chaotic/order called MEST.  The events we experience are just probabilities and rythmic movements of MEST.  Further we (our physical bodies) are only drips in that ocean and consciousness is like beams of light shining throught it.  So everything IS already NOW always even in the physical world.  Our brain interpets time as linear but the truth is that it is an illusion of the earmarking steady rythms in MEST.

Now how can all time (past present and future) happen at once?  A: it can not because “time” is an illusion (a total paradox because Matter and energy make it seem real because of our observance of the movement seperate object), but what if Matter and energy are in infinite dimesions every possible probability.  All points of reference (what we would see as past present and future) would exist all at once.

Re: Matter Energy Space/Time as an object

The Past is as important to the future as Future is to the Past but the Present is like no other. It is the ongoing constant.  The continuum of change like illusion of clouds. Focused on one particular spot ….(reality in this realm) is worded as the Present!
It is a gift and shouldn't be wasted….
The moment of now cannot be cancelled, it never expires only regenerates through each other. This constant change is now….  Change one …change all.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Most interesting posts.  I suggest a site called www.ramtha.com.  Ramtha has many books on this subject which are far easier for me to learn from than others that I have found.  I particularly like his beginning teachings of creation.  For me this made the foundation make sense so I could build on top of that to that which I am aware of now.(WOW) Falling 7 levels of consciousness was a great understanding and now time, distance and space are more known to me.

Re: Past, Present, Future.

It sounds more to me like people are playing with linguistics.

Time is not an illusion, regardless of how many people say this phrase.  It is a concept.  As a concept it has a definition, and while we may be changing that definition as we learn more about our existence, it still exists.  It is not an illusion.

Past and Future cannot (based upon our definitions of these concepts) “exist” or happen or take place in the present.  If they did, they could not be defined as or named the 'past' and 'future.'  The idea of “seeing the past” by viewing starlight that has taken many lightyears to reach us is again playing with the terminology.  You are not viewing the past.  Your brain is responding to your eyes perceiving the arrival of light in the present that took a long time to reach earth.  If you were truly viewing the past, you would be seeing the light leaving those suns, not arriving on earth.  This is not the case.  I suggest that while the past and future do not exist in the present, they may be expressed in the present, and it is this expression of them that is used to describe things like dreaming the future, or reading the past.

The concept of time appears so pervasive to us, but that is because so very many of us have been raised in cultures that present the concept of time as a true and undeniable aspect of existence.  If someone were raised in an environment of timelessness, they would have no concept of time.  That's not a difficult or inaccurate statement to make.  But using the concept of time is so darn handy!  Imagine trying to explain the concept of a 'birthday' without including the concept of time.  How about explaining a recipe for baking cookies, how might you explain that, at a certain point of cooking, they are “done” without employing the concept of time.  Memory… sometimes we remember things, some times we dont.  How does one seperate those two states without utilizing a concept of time itself?  It probably could be done, but honestly, who would want to? 

Time accentuates our concept of beauty, in that perishable things are often considered more beautiful because of their short duration.  Time gives meaning to our idea of evolution and change, giving one hope that a state perceived as current may not always have to be endured.  Time is inherent in enlightenment, as this state describes a change from our typical mindset from one moment to the next.

I believe there should be a more appropriate term created for discussing the kind of past, present and future we intend to convey that does exist in the current moment so that it could be discussed without confusion.  Perhaps there is such terminology that I'm simply unaware of. 

Re: Past, Present, Future.

Greetings all.

In my humble opinion…

Time. An illusion, concept, application, idea. Whatever you want to call it, time is simply that, an application.

Time is based on the changes we se in the sky - movements of celestial objects, that happen to be rytmical. No two solarsystems are alike, therefore our rithm is unique to our universe. Now this only means that our version of time is not alike any other version of time there may be in our universe, not that past, present and future are not existing facets of our universe.

The concept of time is of course very practical, but it really does not exist in the same sense as perception exists. Everything that exists, exists now, and the now is ever changing. What we percieve is change, and then we apply time - to measure the changes.

We have a feeling of past experiences, only because we have learned the concept of time, and that experiences which are not being percieved now but only exist in our minds, are in the past. Now the mind begins to draw a line between the past and the present, and this line points to that which we call future.

We see the sun rising and setting every day. There is not one day, when that did not happen. What we see is still change, but it has some rithm to it, like our breath or hartbeat. I would argue that rithm is certainly an existing aspect of our universe. At some point this rithm becomes an expectation. We expect to see the sun rise again. Now expectations is something animals have too. When the cat hears the crackling of the bag with catfood, it knows that food will soon appear in the bowl, and it comes running to get some. Then we have to put these expectations somewhere in our idea of time, and that is of course in the future.

So in regard to the future, it is obvious that if there was a past which was followed by the present, then this present will become past and be followed by another present, the future. :-)

Of course time is a very coherent dimension. It is so coherent, that we are fooled into beliveing that it actualy exists. Why this incredible coherence?
The fact that we contian these experiences in our minds as memory, is part of the leaning process, the evolution. Our memory is a mekanism that works to prevent us from commiting the same mistake twice, or at least we try not to. Without it evolution would be impossible. The problem when considering memory is it has an implicit aspect of time, the past. Now this is the true illusion. The memory is not of past experiences, but simply of experiences contained within the being. The future is a reflection of this.

There is only the ever changing, infinite now.