Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

I recently watched “The Secret” and it changed my life.  I loved the clarity of the message, and it felt extremely truthful to me.  I understand it's relevance because, as a whole, I believe we've lost control of our power.  We have it, but somehow we're unable to wield it to our respective benefits.

If only one could have an owner's manual to life…

If we did have one, I think The Secret would be the first chapter in that manual.  But, it certainly wouldn't be the whole book.

My recent struggle has been in contexting the Law of Attraction inside of my faith.  I understand a lot of ppl may consider religions like Christianity as antiquated and oppressive myths, but frankly, I'm not concerned with defending my faith.  What is of concern to me is that The Secret seems to propagate demons, loosely veiled under the cloaking of “a group of spiritual teachers”, whose intention is nebulous.  I don't deny that these demons appear to be telling the truth, but to what end, and aren't we doing ourselves a disservice by listening to them with abandon?

Now, I believe a lot of ppl in The Secret were reasonable and not denomic.  I believe we can and should utilize the Law of Attraction.  I do not believe we should disregard the idea of God just because a demon says we should.  To me, there's a hidden agenda there that bares watching.  I believe God to be bigger than what little box we've collectively pushed Him into with our various religions, but I don't believe He's sheer energy without specific cause.  I believe there is a way to use the Law of Attraction without denying the existence of God.  I'm just trying to discover the best way.

I'm curious– is there anyone out there who has the same struggle?

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Please allow this view

For Attraction to be understood, we need to go to the essence and see what Attraction really is. Also, if Attraction is First Law of Creation in full and ever prevailing affect then, to learn how it works we could start by learning that which we already attract. And we rightly suspect our wishful thinking, imagining and so forth as they seldom come true; and so, we must admit none of them is means of attraction.

Don’t be discouraged yet b/c trying to place Attraction and Reality together is easy if we take that other way round. It can be suggested to start with observing what our reality really means to each one as straight forward viewing of the attractions we make in us and in the same time we look at the Structure of Material of which Attraction is made and how it measures or expands in ourselves into every aspect of our world.

For most, our attractions are DEEP EMOTIONS and not thought material, that’s why our thought processes and plans however excited, determined, overruling or comprehensive are futile.

If our DEEP EMOTIONS are shade by thinking how to utilizing or gain, if we try to overcome our worrying, most of the times by wishful wealth - as none is true Emotional Factor; it becomes difficult to turn this intentional observing process the other way round and learn Attraction for what it really is .

But when we really mean to learn what it is, we must recover those deep and most familiar but forgotten emotions in ourselves that propel and construct and prevail it, sometime they can manifest in an Astral Form, or we revive them in many ways that are available, as they are the Unnamable Shadows in us many ways of serine contemplating will get us there.

To attract something then, we must be in the work-area of those emotions. this is not at all difficult as each knows inside they are accessible, now when seeing them, and they are deep and boundless but warm; the thing that could be is following them expanding of some and see or realize how DEEP EMOTIONS are DEEP EMOTIONS, how they further expand into Conscious Reality and how this life that we want so much to change is a product of Attractive Emotions.

It is possible to conceive this one process Emotions ~ Attraction ~ Reality where lies uncovered the Fabric each had woven – and despite any pronounced plan to change, within the same flow and virtue, one re-affirms the existing attraction pattern.

By doing that consciously, it is possible to recover deep acquaintance with the Stage of Attraction as it is.

Now, using the law in my favor is in the continued weaving of the existing fabric of Attraction. Considering all that Attraction was meant to work in our favor in the first place, now it is only needing further weaving – within these deep emotions they are further woven - while words, if we try to use words they need to be put aside, all those wordily wishes for whatever, cause the only way we can attract improvements is with further weaving the fabric of warmth with true love and caring that is made with already.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

 I understand a lot of ppl may consider religions like Christianity as antiquated and oppressive myths, but frankly, I'm not concerned with defending my faith.

While there is alot about organized religion that is antiquated and sometimes oppressive, the core element of Christianity is rich  beyond most people's understanding.  I say, defend your faith if it is attacked.

What is of concern to me is that The Secret seems to propagate demons, loosely veiled under the cloaking of “a group of spiritual teachers”, whose intention is nebulous.

Could you elaborate? Unless you are refering to the “demon” of rule by the ego and greed, with “The Secret” as a way of legitamizing the attainment all desires as the highest good. This of course runs conter to the teachings of both The Buddha and The Christ, of remunciation of self and possesions and attachments.

I believe God to be bigger than what little box we've collectively pushed Him into with our various religions

True and this is why the traditional Christian insists that mysterion or mystery is one of the attributes of the Godhead.

Love,
CalmEagle

“Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. ”
Pope John Paul II

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Thank you for your question.  I appreciate the opportunity to elaborate :D

If you've seen The Secret, you will have no doubt heard from a group of “spiritual teachers” that call themselves Abraham, and are channelled through the person of Esther Hicks.  As a person who was raised in the Christian faith, I was taught to eschew “wisdom” from any entity that was not God, or a follower of Him.  My entire foundation of consciousness is based on the idea that God exists and that I am part of Him and exists through Him.  I'm still trying to understand our eternal relationship.  It's brought me great bliss.

While learning more of the Creator, and His intent for us, I see the intrinsic truth and power in the Law of Attraction.  It's another way of saying “faith”, as far as I'm concerned.  But I think it's dangerous to use this power without understanding its intent, and its context.  I agree with all the principles in The Secret– like attracts like, your thoughts manifest, your will have what you say– but I think it's empty when there's no ackowledgement of God.  I don't agree with the individualist approach in the movie, that we're to be happy and disregard those in pain.  It's impossible for me to accept that a child in New Delhi chooses to attract sex slavery or poverty.  I believe we're more connected than that– and that we all actively choose to create the world in which we live, and we have intense responsibility to our fellow man– especially if we are “one” ultimately.

I refer to those that call themselves Abraham as demons.  I don't doubt that what they are saying sounds true, but it's the malicious twist in their doctrine that causes concern.  Firstly, they regulate God to an idea.  Secondly, they entice us to be like God, saying that we are our own gods.  Thirdly, they discuss no reprecussions to us pursuing our selfish desires.  It brings to mind the story of Eve in the garden of Eden, who was tempted to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  The serpent moved in much the same ways as this group of “spiritual teachers”.  It said, 'Don't you desire to be wise?  and to be like God?  you should eat this fruit, God doesn't want you to know the Secret… you won't surely die.'  Now, the thing to note is that the serpent knew the Word of God, and he played on Eve's desire to be like God (which was an understandable desire).  He told her what God said, but then he twisted it and said that God didn't want them to know.  He also lied, and said that Adam & Eve would not receive punishment from God, although God directly told them that they would.

That's why I referred to their intention as nebulous.  It appears that they are doing us a service, but the question is why would they?  Why would the serpent speak to Eve?  Why would this group of “spiritual teachers” just now decide to start speaking to us in 1985?  Why is their agenda to de-value God and His Authority?  How is it that theistic ppl have lived blessed lives for generations and now, in the past few years, we're being massively seduced into atheism?  That appears to be the agenda of these “spiritual teachers”. 

The reason why what they say works is because it's based on truth.  The world that we live in, and the dimension in which we create are bound by rules that will work if we activate them.  The thing is, we can activate them with a Godly perspective, that is to say that we can be humanitarian and compassionate in our desires to attract well-being, or we can be selfish, and just somehow work the system to our own limited gain.  As long as we're on earth with other ppl, there's a purpose for compassionate consciousness.

So, in a nutshell, that's with what I've been struggling recently.  But talking it through helps me to put my ideas in perspective.  Thanks for your great question.  I'm just wondering if anyone's been able to use the Law of Attraction in a Christian perspective, or if not Christian, from a theistic perspective.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hi Kyo,

Yes, many people use the Law of Attraction from a theistic and/or Christian perspective. Like anything in this life, The Secret and the Law of Attraction has truth and falsehood mixed.  The Spirit of God is always there to help you and me as  Christians to discern truth from falsehood, to take the good and leave the bad or indifferent where it lies.

I experience  attraction or synchronicity or “Godincidences” or however you want to call it every day. If the eyes of your spirit are open and true, and you centre yourself in the love and wisdom of God, you will have all kinds of extraordinary ordinary experiences. Life is full of delights for those who live it exuberantly without fear.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Thank you very much, Nicole.  I appreciate your response, from the Christian perspective.  It helps me to see things through a different view point, and it brings clarity to my experience.  :)

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

      Kyo,
            My personal experience is that the Spirit of God has always been with me.  Most of the time I would not hear it because I did not want to do it Gods way, I wanted it my way or somebody else's way. When I say somebody's else way, I mean however we've been led by man. This is my experience, that I listened to man. There are so many different Christian churches, and they will say, just do your best. God said, FORGIVE, He did not say, “try to”, and this applies to everything that God said to do or not to do. I'm not saying that we can earn anything but I am saying that when we OBEY God we will receive Gods promises. Who ever started, “just do your best”, started a big mess!  A lot of people do their best and point at everyone and tell them they are not doing their best because their best is not the same:).  I learned that my best was doing what I wanted to do, it was not obeying God, following the Christ. I learned what kind of Christian I really was, I was 2% Christian. I woke up, I know God is real, today if I cannot act or react like Christ then I ask myself “why can I not, what is stopping me?” I find what it is and get it out of the way. Fear comes in all different sizes and a lot of times a person must open the package to really know what is inside. I am posting a personal experience.This is one of my personal experiences I had while in prison.  It is about how a situation was transformed by acting and reacting from my heart… 

…One night I was on the phone talking to my son, and while I was talking I watched other men walk up to the entance-way to the restroom and there was another man sitting on the three-foot wall that went through the restroom. He was at the front of the entrance and when someone would walk up, the man sitting on the wall would look at him with a mean look on his face. When they saw his face they were afraid and would turn and walk away and not enter the restroom. The man on the wall was angry and he was a homosexual. He was the nicest man that there could be, but when he wanted to or when he wasn't feeling nice he was the meanest and baddest man in the unit. These men were so afraid that they would change their mind about going to the restroom.

When I got off the phone, I walked over and sat down beside this mad man, or this nice man who thought he was a mad man. He turned and looked at me and what a face! It looked like a pressure cooker that could explode at any time. I knew he was not a pressure cooker, so I said, “What's up, man?” He said, “I'm mad!” I saw through him and I said, “I know you are. What made you mad? Maybe I can help you.” He said, “They made me mad and I am going to whip them.” I said, “I'll help you. Who are they?” He said, “The guards.” I said, “Man, the guards…I know you can whip some guards and I can too, but, man, we will not win in the end, and I don't want to see you get hurt because you are too nice of a person and you don't deserve it. How did they make you mad?” And he went on with the story about how they made him mad. I told him I would not let the guards know they made me mad. I was trying to tell him in a nice way that the only way he could be mad was to feed the thought: “I am mad, they made me mad…” Then I just sat and listened to him, really listened to him. As he talked about it I could see the pressure being released. The next thing I knew the nice man was back and we were sitting there talking and laughing and smiling. We walked into the barracks and the other men did not know what to think about what had just happened.

What an experience this was for me. I was learning to see through people and see the real person. See anger for what it really is and not to accept things the way they appear unless it's what I want. In the New Testament it says “Judge not by appearances…” (John 7:24) Paul wrote “God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind,” (2 Timothy 1:7) Now this man was full of fear, but I refused to see him as fear: instead I saw him as a loving being, and this is what got off the wall and walked away, leaving the fearful being sitting on the wall.

Most people will turn and run the other way when they see a man that is hurting or angry. The only man you will see going up to a mad man is another mad man. People run around talking about God, how God created everything, even the devil. How God has power over the devil and the devil cannot hurt you unless you allow him to, and then every time they think they see the devil, they run the other way. My question is, if a person really believes in God, can he run from the devil?

I think my problem was in believing that there was a devil and that the devil was real! I told myself that I believed in God and God was real, but really I didn't believe it-I was only talking about God. What has awakened me is that today I know God is real and the devil is not. Today I believe in God. God created man, the devil did not create man. It is man that creates the devil.

This man was hurting and needed help; he was in pain, his world was falling in on top of him. He needed somebody to listen to him and talk to him, somebody that knew how to reach out to help another. My part was mostly to be still and allow the reaction to come from inside. If we want to grow spiritually we have to start doing what we learn. Learning does not mean a thing unless you apply what you are learning to your everyday life. Practice what you preach; practice what you have learned. If a man goes to college for 10 years to learn to be a professional, he is not a professional until he opens an office and starts doing what he learned to do. Unless he practices what he has learned he will never become what he learned to be. Many people do this, go through college and get out and decide they don't want to do what they learned and they do something else. Many only do what they learned and never learn anything else-only what somebody else has learned. And some, like Lonnie, go on to learn more on their own and then share it with others that want to learn. Lonnie was the only man I met in prison who was really using love and sharing it, not just telling about it. He was doing to others what he wanted to be done to him. Lonnie was living a life different from the rest, but he never joined them; he kept on going his way. He taught people not to follow others but to follow your heart and you will know you are going in the right direction. This is what I did and am still doing

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Thank You, Don,

I appreciate your respond to my question.  It was very introspective, and it made me think.  I believe it's so important to follow your heart, that is the part of yourself that knows the truth and is always reaching for it.  The conflict comes when our hearts and other ppl's expectations for us don't agree.  I recall very much as a young girl that my parents wanted a certain type of life for me, and I wanted to please them, and indeed tried, but along the way I continued to subconsciously sabotage myself because it did not align with what I believed to be the truth of who I am.

I read that you're a healer, and isn't it amazing that you didn't believe your own truth until you were imprisoned, quite poetically isolated from all the ways that you could escape your truth?  One of the most profound scriptures in the Bible to me is when Paul says, God's word will not return to Him void– it will accomplish what it's set out to do.  I believe very much that God has gifts and reasons inside of us all.  And, the Word of God that is the truth of our lives will not disappear– it will perform it's function… no matter what it will take for us to get there.  Sometimes, if we don't listen or obey God, He will find a way to break through to us.  Ultimately, God reads our hearts, and He knows who we are, and what our intentions are.

The Law of Attraction, in my understanding, is to aid us in fulfilling our highest destiny.  We create, because we are made in God's image who is the ultimate Creator.  We each have a truth, and we use the law of attracton to create a voice for that truth.  That's why I can't accept that we should be selfish with our desires, I think we should be compassionate immensely, and in that way we are of service to others.  If we are indeed connected to each other, we must help each other.

I see clearly how the Law of Attraction worked in your life.  You were obviously missing something when you went to prison, but found it there.  It was irrespective of the place, but it was about your reception.  You understood that there was something wrong with this picture.  And, the more you became introspective, the more you were able to help others.  What a great testimony to the human experience.

Thank you, Don, for sharing.  I truly enjoyed and learned a lot from your words.  Continue in light, and much love.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Here is a personal experience I call it a wolf story. Your right I was missing something and it was not on the outside.

Once a week or so was movie day at school, and we got to sit in class and watch a movie, which was usually a documentary. I remember one in particular that will always remind me of myself. It was about a man in Spain who raised packs of wolves on his land because they were becoming endangered as a species. The man talked about the history of the wolf and what was causing them to become endangered. One day he witnessed a female having pups and took a newborn pup to raise. He said when wolf pups are born the first thing they smell would always be their “mother.” He took the pup home and raised it on a bottle. After taking care of it and observing it for a year he came to realize that she was not happy, and he thought she needed to be with her own kind. He kept a detailed record of the pup's pack and knew exactly where her mother and siblings stayed on his land and released her back to them. They did not reject her, but she rejected them because she did not know she was a wolf. The first thing she smelled was a human and that's what she thought she was. He saw that he could not leave her there and took her back home where she laid down all alone. The man realized that the wolf did not know her true nature and probably would never know it, and he said that he would never do this to another animal again.

The first time I saw this documentary I did not see any further than a story about wolves, but the second time I watched it I saw myself as the wolf. I have experienced the same thing. When I heard the man say the wolf would probably never know its true nature I realized why I have felt so confused all my life. I was not who I thought I was. He said the wolf would lie around and you could see her and tell that she was very confused, unhappy and lost. This is how I have always felt, like lying around the yard not knowing what to do and when I did do something I did not like it. I was not happy.

I knew then without a doubt that I am spirit and I was going to find my true nature. I am what keeps the body alive and I have to remember who I am, who my real father is. I could see what happened to me, the same as what I always heard about wild animals turning on their masters sooner or later because they return to their nature. No, it is not that at all. The animal is just unhappy because it's not its self, its true nature, and the farther it gets away the unhappier it becomes, the angrier it becomes. It is because the animal believes it is a human.

This is the same problem we have as humans-we think and believe we are human when we are really spirit but we do not know that we are. All my life I felt different from others. I felt I don't like them, I don't belong here, I need to go somewhere, do something. I felt as if I were dropped off here and I am not from here, no one is like I am. The older I got, the further away I got from my true nature, and the anger and resentment grew inside of me because I did not like myself. The anger and resentment started coming out more and more, and I would lose control and blame others for pushing my button. The angrier I felt, the less I wanted to live, and I began to cover these feelings up with drugs, alcohol, sex and money. Nothing helped me-it only covered up my problem for a short time and then it was back the next day and growing bigger. People around me, my family and my friends could see this happening to me. Little did they know that the same thing was happening to them. They could not see it in themselves but had no problem seeing it in everybody else! It was not until I was locked up that I saw it in so many others and I could see that there was something wrong with me.

I had been taught all my life that I was human, just as the wolf was raised human. The wolf never saw or learned anything about a wolf, and it would be hard to teach her that she is a wolf after raising her to be a domesticated pet. She was not allowed to be her true nature and was truly trapped within herself. This is the same thing that happened to me. I was trapped, imprisoned within myself. Sure, you can say we are human! Then what about all this God stuff? We are human, we are spirit, and the human part dies and the spirit lives forever. Why, then, are we taught so much about human nature and nothing or very little about spirit nature?

                      Your friend, Don

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Sweetheart, Jesus was and STILL IS the MASTER of the Law of Attraction. HOW do you think he manifested all the miracles he performed? Then on his departing the disciples he made the comment; “Greater works than these shall YOU do because I go to my Father in heaven.”

He raised the dead, turned water into wine, and fed over 10,000 people with basically a kid's Happy Meal at one point. I don't know about you, but “I” want to know what the “greater things” are so I can manifest them.
 Are we “gods”? God said we were, and I'll refer you to the 82nd chapter of Psalms, and another scripture in the New Testament from the mouth of Jesus HIMSELF saying the ame thing:

Psa 82:6- I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him

In the ORIGINAL language, the words image and likeness are “interchangable”, but are basically the same definition, and EXACT carbon copy.

Genetically speaking, we ARE just like our father, and the earth is OUR dominion.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

How could I not reply to such large use of capital letters, as if someone thinks they speak the only truth….?
(which is the only reason why I even reply to this)

How I think he performed all of those miracles. well, what miracles? If I write a book about something 300 years after it happened, how can it be anything but fiction? if there is only oral tradition? Well, we don't know really, and never will. So how can you say, he wasn't just a smart wize man, who just happened to have some great idea's for his age, instead of miracles…?

So if he came from the desert, what use is a beverage like wine, which was known to de-hydrate, as he is a simple disciple of god, trying to fight the snobistic aristocracy, who drank wine most of the time, and clean water was the salvation of life and of simple life which he led as a carpenter? shouldn't he have changed it the the way around? And what was he doing with wine anyway?

10.000 people in the year 10 BC?!? That is about the size of Hannibals Army (the greatest invasion force of that time to land in Europe). That is the size of a large city in those days. where did he get all those people from? (yes, sure, the bible says this, but that is the idea, try and make up with something logical or acceptabel for your senses that isn't written in the bible.)

Bravo, you see Jezus as a master, and still you pray to a god, while that same man/woman/thing/being told you yourself you are a god. What good is it to wait for an answer from someone else, if you are just as capable to answer that question yourself. (according to the guy you pray for)

About the original language, The only language I can find in which such a a word meaning those two same things are classical Latin; species (no not english), simulacrum and Icon. Of which this last one is the exact description of the words you used. (no more, no less) This is however postclass, and is likely not used during the period of christ himself. In fact the language of the church has been classical latin for about 18 centuries. Which is Ironic, as the first christians didn't really speak latin. And that latin was spoken by that people who prosecuted so many. (I can go deeper on that, it is rather interesting, The emperor Nero was the worst) As to speak there must have been at least three different languages in which it was translated in between, it can therefore not be an exact copy. Since jezus was a hebrew.

So why am I bitching on your faith? Do you think I like it? No i don't. The thing that bothers me, that you speak as if 'this is truth, and nothing else' such a view, has killed millions of innocent people, and even christians themselves, as it was this same view, they were prosecuted for In ancient Rome in the first place. I hope I gave you enough reasons for you to see, that there is not only one truth. Follow your own path, I don't mind, and it is none of my business, but don't go telling others 'truths', that you cannot prove.

Kindest regards,
Domus Ulixes

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

If you feel offended, I am sorry for seeing reasons to contradict your faith in this discussion.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Wow, I love it!
I'm having a good time reading the responses of Marc and Frederik, for very different reasons.

Marc, thank you for bringing up the scripture(s) when Jesus talks about us beings gods.  It's been a scripture that I've found perhaps the most unusual in the Bible, actually all of written language.  What in the world does it mean?  Frederik did do a good job of poking holes in your argument.  Why do we worship a God that tells us we're god?  It's gives the same impression of being a mirror for a mirror.  What exactly can either mirror hope to gain?

I owe you a huge debt of gratitude, Marc, for bringing this controversial statement to the foreground of this dicussion about juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction.  The idea that Jesus speaks of is the definitive answer to those who question our worthiness to receive good in this world, and our participation (actually creation) in every circumstance in our lives.

But, Marc, your ideas do have holes in them.  Why is Jesus the master if, by his own admission, we will do greater things than He?  Why does God expect us to worship Him if we are the exact replicas of Him?  By argument, shouldn't we just worship ourselves?

I see a clear difference between me and God.  To be certain, God is my Creator, and is infinitely wiser than I.  I don't believe we'll “grow up” to be God.  I believe God always is and has never changed in nature– so, He had no beginning, as we clearly do… or at least parts of us do– like this earthly experience.

There's a lot of questions out there that can't be answered by my finite understanding, and finite view– that's why I'm not exclusionatory.  Unlike Frederik, I do believe there is one truth, but I don't believe I know it.  I'm in an active pursuit of that true.  I choose the path of Christianity to find that truth, but do I believe that a Buddhist is doomed to eternal damnation (confusion, non-truth)?  No!  I believe honestly that anyone who is searching for the truth will find it.  It's my motto.

The question of existence has always been the question.  What is clear is that we have tendencies to believe what we see, when it's been proven that reality can be vastly different.  That's become clear every night, in our dreams.. when we hold on to those experiences, and rarely doubt them until we wake up and say, ah.. it was just a dream.  And what else could we be dreaming about?

Petty things: Please don't call me Sweetheart, I feel like that was condescending.  Secondly, I took 5 years of Latin.. so, I can conjugate the hell out of a verb.. and thirdly, please don't be offended by my comments or anyone elses.  It's in the process of being challenged that we truly understand what we believe, and that belief aids us.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

You took five years of Latin, that is nice! (I had 8 years, but I didn't start to enjoy it until the last three years :P)

The things I think that matter in this life (my way of thinking) or what I believe helps me, and what I think to see that really helps others. Is in fact that same thing Jezus said! (What he said was smart, it is a pitty so many people mistaken his answer. Jezus wasn't fed up with haveing to perform miracles all the time for nothing, he wanted people to listen to his message, listen to his teachings. (wikipedia) I will certainly not say that the words of Jesus were wrong. But they have been interpreted wrongly for many, many centuries.

To me, Jesus is just another fellow man, no greater respect can I give him. Even though I don't even know the guy. He probably didn't have it all that easy. He tried to change the tide, in a religious battle upcomming. (christianty didn't begin at year 1, but about 200 years before that) Romans actually accepted any other religion to be celebrated. (how do you think Hindu's and juisme survived the Roman domination…) However, bad thing were though about christians, that they ate little children, and would sacrifce fellow men. The thing is, that we don't know. But we don't know, because the roman's didn't knew either. Christianty was kept in secret, and they refused to celebrate the only two obligatory celebrations in Rome. Further more, they refused to go in Rome's Army. Which simply had the death penalty (trial of maximilianus). At this moment jesus would come to the stage. Perhaps if he could change the thinking of the christians in the name of god. He could end senseless bloodshed of his fellow man. He was wise, and he tells exactly that which buddha did, and many wise people still say today.        

You are god; you are in full control of your own faith. On how your life is lived, and how you will see the world. It isn't a puzzleing concept. It is what even science nowadays fully supports. It is an essential part of who we are. As, what if you never knew god? Would you still have worshipped something, or would you have listened to your inner voice, yourself, you (as god). And had gone by your life, knowing that you were in control, and that you could fix every obstacle if it only required a little work?

I think you would.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

This is the ultimate question for you.. anticipating your answer…

If there is no such thing as a God outside of ourselves, why would we create such a thing?

It's well-documented how power-hungry we human beings are.  In many arenas, gladiator or business, everyone is searching to be king, to be dominate– it's intrinsic in our nature.  If we really are the ultimate, what's the point of believing ourselves to be subordinate?  Why would we want to do that?  What is that feeding in ourselves?

I believe in God.  I definitely don't believe He's limited, by any means.. but He exists ourside of me, and yet inside of me.  I am different to Him, and I can't explain why– but I'm getting there.  Whenever I get too arrogant, something happens that humbles me.. and in those moments of painful humility, I'm not looking at myself and saying, oh save me!  I'm looking at something bigger than me, and asking that being to save me… and save me, i mean comfort me, show me a different perspective, lead me out of the valley of death.  And that being always does… I'm not reliable, He is.

It goes beyond positive thinking, and changing perspective.  I don't want ever be in a place where i feel like i'm all that is… That's arrogant, that's blasphemous, that's incredibly illogical.. because in myself i can recognize a beginning, and a growth.. I wasn't always conscious.. I wasn't always alive.. and something made me become alive.  That power that gave me breath and sustainence (even prior to being born on earth) is what I call God.  It's His ultimate wisdom and direction I must trust in.  I can't describe how I know He exists, it just is part of the program in my mind.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

– 'It's well-documented how power-hungry we human beings are.  In many arenas, gladiator or business, everyone is searching to be king, to be dominate– it's intrinsic in our nature.  If we really are the ultimate, what's the point of believing ourselves to be subordinate?  Why would we want to do that?  What is that feeding in ourselves?' –
That is a good question, but a simple look around you gives you the answer. Look at history for all I care. Most people do not want to be leaders. they don't work harder to get a higher job, or have the ambition to do so. They don't have the guts to take the lead, and they'd rather have someone looking after them, then to be responsible for all those submissive to him. People who want to take the lead will do so. Remember, that the church and the word of clergymen was considered for many for centuries as the only power. Attaining a religion ment power over others. In that same way, most people do not want responsibility over others. They do not want to be responsible for the pains and death of the ones that follows them. 'They can't handle the pressure' they'd much rather be lead. And most people are like that, they simply accept it. And don't have to face the responisibilty, and, when something does go bad, the can blame the leader. Now A question for you in return. How many people blame god, when something goes wrong, which they actually could have prevented themselves?

– 'Whenever I get too arrogant, something happens that humbles me.. and in those moments of painful humility,' – What kind of moments? I'm interested.


– ' If there is no such thing as a God outside of ourselves, why would we create such a thing?' –

Ah, humans are very creative. I for instance still admire my sister day in and day out, to find out rather excuisite excuses not to do certain things, just like her father. While they're energy could just as well be spended it doing the things anyhow. This doesn't mean my answer has to do anything to do with laziness, but with creativity :P
We created got, out of our own creative minds, to explain why things happened that question our minds. For centuries long humans have wondered why it was things happened. Why did lightning strike? Why do people dy? Where do they go? What makes the moon and the sun move? What makes the seasons come and go? Why are there people that look so different then us? Actually, millenia before God, we had different god's for that, some only a few, some one, some hundreds. And that wasn't just because they couldn't explain. But because they couldn't explain everything to everyone. You see, someone trying to find out how something works (say a scientist) doesn't grow crops, doesn't restore houses, doesn't forge tools, and doesn't contribute anything of use whatsoever to the society. They are useless. What if everyone would ponder these questions? (if there were no god) Aye, society would simply sease to exist. Everybody would starve etc. Explanation why things happened is vital for the survival of any society. Just like why you come and ask your governement what has happened if something un-explainable arises. (think of 9-11) you go and ask your boss for explanation.
You see, this is the reasons why religion arose in the first place, nescessity. Actually, The romans made huge bridges, and structures, yet they did have 'construction' gods to worship. Not because they didn't understand, but because not everyone had the time too.
So why is it still here? Well, most people didn't really have time to think until wellfare arose. And they were much more submissive and usefull for the leaders when they were poor. And had to listen to their biddings. Religious wars, were fought in the name of god, but in intention of someone who used it's public falue for its own good.
Why are we losing it today? Well we can understand more and more things, we lose the nescessity for gods, because we understand more. As an example, in the early days, it said in the bible that god created Lighting, now we know he didn't. Why? because we learned. Until we can understand everything (which we will probably never) there is a nescesitty of blind faith, just as I trust that there will be a tomorrow even if I know that it could very well be not so. And that isn't bad. You cannot expect from everyone to know, or understand why things happen. You can however expect that some social courtesy of those who do, not to abuse the faith of others. Which, as again proven by history is so easy.
Why do we put so much trust in faith? Because for many it is the only explanation, and therefore savior of almost all of their ponderings (mostly considered problems) in every day life. Yet, because God, is a stand alone god, people hold him responsible for everything, that is why it doesn't work all so good. As for instance there was a Roman god for any different problem. Letting them to consult a priest specified in one task. Being much better able of helping them. As he understood that little piece of his god, and could therefore help those whe (didn't yet) understand.

I hope you liked the answer ;)

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

it occurred to me that humanity gave up the idea of external god altogether when they heard 6 million innocent believers were gazed to death in Bergen Belsen and Auschwitz and all which happened in Europe and other continents, in Africa, altogether it exceeded any conceivable apprehension, it was beyond forgiveness really and then soon after : followed the absolute when in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Americans dropped nasty Little Boy and Fat Man, to win the war which is never ending and  that was just enough. no further testing was necessary for humanity in gross to ultimately come across that which was obvious for ever; that god is not external, and that praying and waiting for his salvation has exhausted us to the bitter pit of despair until we had to wakeup and let the divine be.

Namaste

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Well the thing is, that there will always be a need for religion. So when something does go horribly wrong, they think up a new one. Besides so you really think that of all the Jues in the Holocaust most changed their religion? No they didn't because it was the only thing they could hold on to.

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You're Dutch.  I like that about you.  One of my very best friends is Dutch.  Because I'm American and I like to generalize, I've found that most Dutch ppl like to question things, not to accept things without reason.  That said you, especially for your age, are extremely advanced in your thinking and concepts, another quality I admire.  I'm never offended by you, I want you to know that, even though I suspect we have vastly different ideas about God.

Onto your questions:
How many people blame god, when something goes wrong, which they actually could have prevented themselves?

This is something that has angered me for a long time.  Ppl don't seem to grasp the fact that they create their own lives– for better or worse.  I agree with you, ppl don't like to be in control– it's much easier to blame others when something goes wrong than to recognize one's fault in the matter.  I personally vowed that I would never get angry at God– the whole idea seems insane to me.  It just seems displaced, when we should actually be angry at ourselves.

In recent years, I've challenged my idea of what I believe God to be.  I grew up in a small Christian church, with very narrow ideas of everything.  At an early age, I started to rebel.  I believed God was bigger than the box we put Him in.  I eventually (at 10) stopped going to church, and wonder of wonders, my mom allowed me to stop.  It wasn't until years later when I returned to church, but even then circumspectly.  I went for several years before stopping again, because ideas became limiting again.

I understand the theory of why ppl need to believe in a higher being.  Ppl like to be irresponsible for their actions, blame “fate” when they are too lazy to make life happen, and also ppl feel lonely and need leadership.  Other ppl, like some leaders in our world religions, profit off of the need for ppl to be led, and create horrible acts in the name of guidance (i.e. holy wars, the crusades, the insanity that's currently happening in Israel). 

Ppl need to challenge their idea of God.  I don't think He's some huge zeus-like guy with white hair and a sandals, pointing His sceptre and creating lightning.  God is bigger than one static image.  He's bigger than humanity as a whole, and He is the essence of our life.  It's very difficult/impossible for the creature to try to synthesize its creator.  The only thing I have is an unwaivering sense that something outside of me exists, and that I am a champion to that existence.  I wouldn't dare try to define God in more definite terms at this time.

 'Whenever I get too arrogant, something happens that humbles me.. and in those moments of painful humility,' - What kind of moments? I'm interested.

Usually when I'm sick. :)  I've been sick a lot recently (wisdom tooth ache, dizziness, medicine withdrawals) and at my worse points of sickness, the only thing that soothed me was calling on God to help me.  God was there immediately to assist me, and to calm me and my faith in Him created a sense of wellness.  There are of course other times, but that's the foremost thought in my mind.  Don't bother trying to pursuade me otherwise about that, I tried positive thinking, and it didn't work.  Only the humble awareness of a Higher and all-knowing power helped me to overcome my pain.

I hope that helps answer your questions.  I enjoy your insight.  And I know I'm not being very thorough, I'm an admittant beginner in my understandings of God and life.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hi Kyo,

You have to take “greater things than these” in the context of the conversation he was having with the disciples before his departure.

They were marvelling about all the “miracles” he had performed during his brief time here, and he merely told them THEY would do even greater things than that because he was going back to make it so.

1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the things which the world regards as foolish, in order to put its wise men to shame; and God has chosen the things which the world regards as destitute of influence, in order to put its powerful things to shame;

                                                                                       (Weymouth New Testament)
      
A wise man once told me; “You need the help of a good theologian to misunderstand the Bible”, and he was right.

  **Why do we worship a God that tells us we're god?  It's gives the same impression of being a mirror for a mirror.  What exactly can either mirror hope to gain?**

We aren't a “mirror of a mirror”..We're the “mirror image” of the original;

As I stated in the earlier posting, those two words in Hebrew ( The original language the Old Testament was written in, as Latin hadn't been invented yet) mean exact duplicate or carbon copy.

Why you ask? The answer is “simple”. Propogation of the species. In nature, EVERYTHING produces after it's own kind. God obeys his own laws. He could only create that which was after ”his own kind”;

Rom 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:17-  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

Yes, YOU may see a difference between you and God, but HE doesn't. When he looks at you, he sees ”himself”

Joh 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Hi Freddie,

Normally, i don't reply to posts from people that don't have the same point of view as myself, or talk “stupidly”, But I'm going to make an exception in your case.

“quote” :

So why am I bitching on your faith? Do you think I like it? No i don't.
(NEVER do something you don't like doing. “I” don't Keeps life simple.)


The thing that bothers me, that you speak as if 'this is truth, and nothing else' such a view, has killed millions of innocent people, and even christians themselves, as it was this same view, they were prosecuted for In ancient Rome in the first place. 

I hope I gave you enough reasons for you to see, that there is not only one truth.

Follow your own path, I don't mind (apparently you DO mind),

and it is none of my business ( You are correct on this point as well.),

but don't go telling others 'truths'( I was asked a question and did my best to answer it as I understood it),

that you cannot prove.( But can “you” disprove it? And WHOSE truth will you do it with?) 

I find you to be very much the “hypocrite” as the definition of the word applies. I believe what “I” believe, most of which can be proven through quantum mechanics ,quantum physics, and the life writings of people who have “succeeded” using these principles.

I don't mean to be bitching on your beliefs? You  think I like it?

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Well Marc, I don't mind you critizising me either. :P

The reason why I am telling you this, is because I know, many, many people in various societies. Are only allowed to see one side of the story. they are only granted the reigning view of the world of that specific place. Say, a very religious small community. That is not a way to show choice, or objectivity. That is what I mind. So I give you the option, what you choose, is none of my business, As long as you had the chance and time to properly choose how to look at the world, for yourself, and not according to others peoples view.

The thing is, The only thing I believe is my eyes. And I am rather lucky, to not only understand quantum mechanics and things alike, but to do, and see the experiments all by myself. I study physics at Radboud University. (this doesn't nescecairrily make me an un-objective viewer) Because everything I haven't seen with my eyes I do not see as something true, let alone provable. There are parts of Quantum theory I have seen proven incorrect with my own eyes. (recent developments btw) And spoke to Nobelprize winners who desperatly seek a determenistic view of the world. Something I totally do not agree on. But I do listen to what they have to say. And I do listen to what they have to say, and what their idea's are. I take the time to look at both sides of something. Before I make my choice.

I grew up in Holland, yes that means that over 46 percent of the dutch does not attain a religion. But it also means, that I got in Direct contact with over six different religions and ways of thinking since the age of 3 een up to this date. I have had insipring conversations with budhists, Islamics, many christians, hindu's and Jues. I am also educated in several other religions. Does that make me a hypocrite? I come in daily contact with religious fanatical people from all diffent religions. But they rather fight eachother then they do me. Because I ask them questions, that make them think. And they do not try to convince me to the idea, that their religion is the only right one. Because they know, that I have many questions to ask, that no existing religion can explain. Things I saw with my own eyes. Things that I will prove with my own eyes aswell. If I can't believe my own eyes, what can I?

Kindest Regards,
Domus Ulixes

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Can we believe our eyes?

Judging by eye-sight, nothing exists beyond the horizon and the earth is flat.  Sometimes it takes different perspectives to be able to see the full dimension of a subject.  That's why studying different religions fascinate me.  I don't believe any one religion has all the answers– but in concert, it makes more sense.

Objectivity is the only way to learn the Truth.  It hurts to be object, ppl don't like objectivity and ostricize you for it.  Ppl like fanatic emotionalism, we make altars for our subjectivity.  For me, I've always been objective (or got there as fast as I could).  I've upset many ppl in the process, because I would not take their side in a issue on the basis of loyalty.  If I can see both sides of an issue, it's only reasonable to find a common ground between the two and reconcile, not say– oh, a is better than b because…

Of course that's exactly what it's going to sound like below :D

Although I agree with Frederik on some points and not others, I understand his general point of view is toward higher, intergrated consciousness.  His ideas are progressive, as I think I've stated somewhere before.  I believe Marc is much more traditional but it's very important to not become defensive when another presents an argument that's different to one's own.  When we defend, we push away things that may aid us in understanding through a different perspective.  Like I said, objectivity hurts, for many reasons, one of which is that it causes us to challenge what we believe.  But the only way we grow is by challenging our limits.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

'But the only way we grow is by challenging our limits.'

Right on!

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I really like what Nicole shared.  If our spirits are aligned with God we will be given the truth.

Kyo,  I appreciate your desire to not let yourself be misguided because you do seek to live in truth.  I saw The Secret too and liked it.  It has been awhile since I saw it but  I don't think that I came away with the feeling that they were saying God wasn't real.  I tend to receive what is meant for me and let the rest fall away so maybe I just don't remember.  I also believe that we tend to put God in a box.  I often feel that the world creates God in it's own image vs. created in God's image.  I don't think that we even come close to a full realization of God

I feel that we do come here with an owner's manual and we are it - it lies within us but we don't trust so we want validation from outside of us.  The bible is full of people listening to the voice of God within them and full of people that live by the written law of God.  Jesus said “I have come to abolish the law and yet to fulfill the law.”  For me that means that we are to follow the examples of those who lived by the voice of God not to turn those examples into law.  If we make it law then again we are looking outside instead of within.  If we know that we truly seek God, we can trust that we will be lead in the right direction.  It is a promise He has given us.   There is One Truth with many paths to it.  I do not follow any religion athough I have in the past and respect that it is a choice for each person.

 

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Thanks Debby for your affirmation. Lots of wisdom in your posts too! All the best,

Nicole

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I agree that there is most likely  truth and falsehood in The Secret but I feel the same way about religions too.  Religions get tied up on things and get them twisted in the same way, hence so many different religions have arisen and yet at the base of them there lies the same basic truth.  Any religion of choice believes that they have the one take on the truth of God but when you really take a look at that, couldn't that be percieved as egotistical?

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Thanks Debby for your posts to my question!

It was very interesting the comments you made about religion.  I have also believed that God is much bigger than what we can define.  If we could define God, we could create Him– and I think that's exactly what's happening with many religions and in the minds of many ppl.  God created us from nothing, and from that sheer perspective, we will always be limited in our understanding of Him.  No matter what your perspective, be it creationism or evolution, we were created from nothing, and that's absolutely an amazing concept.  But I digress :)

I believed from a young age that I could not say my religion is superior to another's.  A Buddhist or a Muslim or a Jew can have the same fervent passion about their beliefs.  For me, I choose the path of Christianity, because it “feels” right, there is a certain undeniable truth in it that I agree with.  I believe anyone searching for God will find Him.  And, I place much more value on having an intimate relationship with God, over attending weekly service.  Ultimately, without the props, it's just you and God, and you'll need to find your way to relate to Him.  As long as we're on earth, and limited in our ability to synthesize great universal truths, like God, we can never assert “this” religion as right, and all other religions as wrong.

I'm not so sure that it was directly stated in The Secret that God was not real.  I'm a research freak, and I started looking into the teachings of Abraham, the group of “spiritual teachers” mediated through one of the speakers in the video.  When I understood that they taught widely that God did not exist, it made me curious of their agenda.  And, then I backtracked to the video, which seemed innocuous enough, and became suspicious of its intents also.  I have since determined that we should take the good and leave the bad..  Like you said.  It's true, and sometimes it's difficult to do… But I've found that in taking the good, that it's made my life much more beautiful.  I have attracted a positive energy into my life, and I'm thankful for the video.  Like it stated, you are watching the video because you attracted it.  It was (and is) necessary for me to tackle some major struggles in my life.

I can now use what I've learned to better direct my life, and not become atheistic in the process.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Don's story about the wolf is a classic example of what happens to us through the human experience.  I have a similar story that is true.  In my early 20's I found a baby squirrel at the base of a tree in my backyard.  It was as long as my middle finger, so tiny, fragile,  without hair and eyes still closed.  I was drawn to saving this little creature and took him to a local wildlife sanctuary.  They told me he was probably only a couple of days old and most likely would not survive.  I was determined and had them tell me all I had to do - feed it every hour and a half in the day and every two hours through the night, burp it, etc.  They were in disbelief when I said I would do it and told me that squirrels don't bond with humans so not to expect to have a relationship with it.  I said that was okay and that I would raise it to be free and they agreed to teach me how to do that.  Of course, I already loved the little guy that I named Pierre and to the amazement of all he did bond with me.  I was the only one that he would let touch him and he loved hanging out in my shirt pocket, sitting on my shoulder and sleeping on my heart.  I did all of the external things they told me to do to acclimate him to living in his natural world.  He would play in the backyard, climb the trees but never left the boundaries of the yard.  His house was a very large cage outside.  The day came when he saw another squirrel for the first time and he freaked out.  He was absolutely terrified and bolted for me landing on my shoulder - I realized didn't know he was a squirrel.  I started to get concerned when over time he still would not mingle with the other squirrels.  He was about a year old and still wouldn't accept them - they frightened him.  He preferred to play with me, very much like a cat plays.  One night as it was getting dark, he wouldn't come down out of the tree when I called him.  Squirrel can't see well in the dark so I knew he would be in the tree for the night.  This had happened once before and he was pretty scared when I found him waiting for me the next morning.  Well, this time when morning came he was gone.  I knew he would not have left on his own because he never wanted to go outside of the yard.  The wildlife sanctuary said that an owl probably got him and and that he lacked his natural survival skills due to his bonding with me (they repeated that they had never seen that happen before).  My desire had been to set him free and hoped he would come and go as he pleased, but  I had unwittingly crippled him from being who he really was.  Sad little story isn't it.  This is what happens to us as humans - it is like having amnesia.  Society, our familes, etc.  define us and then we must find our way back to our true selves.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Debby,
       That is a wonderful story, I like how you ended it, ” This is what happens to us as humans - it is like having amnesia.  Society, our familes, etc.  define us and then we must find our way back to our true selves. ” This I know is hard for people to do, it was easy for me all I had to do was go to prison :-), it wasn't long I learn what prison is. Prison is a place where you are and somebody else tells you what to do and when to do it and how. It made me think I been here before, I realized my whole life had been like this, I had never been free. Is it any wonder why I never liked who I was, who was I ? I was never allowed to be myself, my family passed down to me, what was passed down to them. They made me and then I had to try and live with me, no wonder why everybody wants somebody to make them HAPPY and why not, somebody made them unhappy !! My book, INSIDE OUT is not just about a man going into prison and then out of prison. It's about a man that goes to prison and learned or remembered the truth and freed hisself, and how he did it, we do not need to learn who we are we need to unlearn, who we are not and who we are will be uncovered.

    In prison, the Arkansas prison, I did not follow the rest of them and this was hard but it was good because I didn't want what the rest of them had. Then after my release back into the great big world, and just like in prison I'm not following the rest of them because I do not want what they got, they are welcome to it if that's what they want. Thanks again for sharing your experience.  Your friend Don

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Its kind of interesting on how god or the higher power (or whatever you want to call it) sends us messages….like the wolf and squirrel stories.  Here we are, trying to help and we end up doing more harm, than good or just prolonging the inevitable.  We have enough to do, just learning to take care of ourselves, but sometimes we are drawn to help others who we perceive as being less fortunate or unable to help themselves.  We often end up coddling them and hindering their own progess towards learning their own lessons on whatever path they are on.  I guess the thing we all need to be aware of, is our actions and reactions have consequenses.    

I don't think there is one religion or belief system that is better than another…it is basically, whatever works or resonates within you.  As long as your path is leading you to be a kinder, more gentle, more loving, more caring person, then its a good thing.  When one becomes locked on just their way of looking at events, or tries to strongly or forcefully impose their beliefs, trouble is bound to happen. 

peace…
T

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hey Terry
            When we look deeper into the wolf and the squirrel story, the animal that we think we are helping, really came to help us. I don't know how many times I thought that I was helping someone or something and after it was over with, I felt, who helped who ? The truth is when we help another, when we reach out to help another we are really helping ourself. The wolf and the squirrel came to help us, this kind of thing is going on everyday not only with the animals but people also are coming to us to help us help ourselfs. How wonderful this is. Your friend,Don

I have to say that this so called life is like making
pancakes, if you don't turn it over you will not like it
when it's done.(-:

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

! - life is like making pancakes, if you don't turn it over you will not like it when it's done - !

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“Society, our familes, etc.  define us and then we must find our way back to our true selves.”Debby

:-)

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Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

thank you very much for this link Alex

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

‘we do not need to learn who we are we need to unlearn, who we are not and who we are will be uncovered.’

BINGO Don !!! This is the real (and only) SECRET. And once it is discovered, the real deal begins for us. Christianity - as it was originally presented by Christ - says exactly this, and only this - if you have ears to hear..or, more revealant for our times- if your ears have been unstuffed enough -

what else could ‘dying to self’ mean?

The ‘law of atraction’ is not new, or newly known. Even a brief scan of Ancient Wisdom will show you that this ‘law’ was known and practiced for many centuries. The problem is that we want to USE it - an impulse based in and on a belief that there is something else besides the All that is All that is. And though any ‘belief’, given enough energetic backing, may work a time or two or three, just like anything and everything we try and USE - it will eventially stop working and we will again be faced with our powerlessness. (of myself I am nothing). In our time, more and more people have been brought to this crossroad than ever before in our history - we are running out of things to USE. (finally!!!…;-)

In the end - it’s all good - just as it was in the beginning. Whatever works to open us up….(all things work together…etc.) And the spiral of relativity we seem to travel will unfold itself as it will - no matter what we may believe, or how many times we change our beliefs, agreements and loyalties. Truth is True whether I believe or not -
and (one of my favorite reminders) if ‘i’ think it - that ain’t IT.

Uncovering is the name of the game - for That Which IS has never not been, and will never not Be - Itself.

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Please allow this interpretation:

Law of Attraction can be easily misunderstood if taken out of context if intentionally presented as means to an end.

The One Law of the universe as they put it so bluntly in the movie - in reality Attraction is inseparable with The Four Laws and  when we uncover which we attract, by that realization, to whatever depth, we apply the second Law of Intent.

With unlearning, a transformation is taking place; and another occurrence, feeling, message, goal, level, state or stage; any of those and endless more are instantaneously attracted. please read Will’s  response on  Authentic Self and Big Mind , where he offers a parallel understanding.

All together, the instance of revelation is made possible by the (third) Law of Allowance; consider Allowance is guaranteed in any point of conscious reality; in the uncovering of our Attraction,  instantly another Attraction is born and eventually comes forth - in this case we give birth to the truth and spiritual growth..

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Thank you Yosyama - I have no issue with the video or it’s presentation - and certainly no argument with anyone’s beliefs or views.

I simply see it the other way around - you say ‘we give birth to the truth and spiritual growth’ and my experience is that Spirit /Truth gave birth to ‘me’ - is the Source and Substance of ‘me’. As I relinquish old ideas and conditioning - sometimes a very difficult task - I begin to see through the mists of history and humanhood. Whatever ‘laws’ may be in place are in place - but for me the only law I serve is the Law of Love. The message of Jesus has undergone much distortion, yet I can follow it, like a Golden Thread, through a myriad of teachings and ‘discoveries’ , the fabric of Consciousness is and always has been in the Hands of the Master Weaver.

The Universe is vast and limitless - room for everyone and everything here ~ in perfect peace ~

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

yes, and yes, Patty! thank you! love

nicole

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hey Everybody,

I love all of your comments - what a wise group this is.  I have gotten so much from all of you.

 I have always been confused about one of the principles for the law of attraction and most likely I am not fully grasping it.   It is the law of staying away from using words like don't, won't, etc. in our self-talk.  Example:  “I don't want to argue with my daughter.”  The universe hears, “I want to argue with my daughter.”  This part makes perfect sense to me.  Change it to, “I have a harmonius relationship with my daugher.”  The confusing part for me is, if I were to say, “I don't have money, why doesn't the universe hear, “I have money?”  I follow the principle but this is something that I wonder about.  I have never heard anyone else wonder about this so, it may be that I am missing a link in my understanding?

Any words of wisdom for me?

Thanks, Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hi Debby,

There's one particular fact about the Law of Attraction that people just won't talk about, or they dance around it and never get to the point. And that one fact is:

The Law of Attraction operates from the individuals “core beliefs”, and delivers what you “truly” believe in the deepest, darkest recesses of the individual's belief system. And while many people give “lip service” on the outside to believing that Law of Attraction works, they'll never take personal responsibility for their core beliefs that cause any “failure” they may experience in manifesting things.

The laws of this universe “cannot” fail. Weare the “unknown” in the failure cycle of this particular law. It you “attempted” to manifest something, and it failed, it wasn't the Law of Attraction that failed, it was your “core belief” concerning “whatever” it was that caused the failure.

You can dance and chant (affirm) yourself into a frenzied lather, but if your “core beliefs” don't line up with your affirmations, failure is the end result.

If the Universe “hears”(detects the thought vibrations that have produced the no money scenario, and the corresponding actions you have taken to put yourself in that particular position) I have no money, and you have NO money, the Law can't go “against” it's very principles and produce something totally opposite of your “core” belief.

An remember one thing. The Law of Attraction works in partnership with other “specific” laws of the Universe to produce manifestations. One of the MAIN one's is the “Law of Action”.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Debby,

An important piece about what you ask is addressed by Yosyama way up there in the beginning of the thread - he says:

‘If our DEEP EMOTIONS are shade by thinking how to utilizing or gain, if we try to overcome our worrying, most of the times by wishful wealth - as none is true Emotional Factor; it becomes difficult to turn this intentional observing process the other way round and learn Attraction for what it really is .’

So it is like if I want money becasuse I have a fear of not having it - I am ‘sending mixed messages’, so to speak. And the fear is always loudest. In my own experience, if I want something to soothe a deep seated fear - I don’t/can’t get it - because then the fear becomes the basis of the manifestation and becomes REAL. I have found I have to deal with my under-the-surface fears first to clean out the channel - this is hard because it is scary. (at least to me it is…;-)

- and now that I think of it I had an experience with this recently and posted it on my blog - here it is:

what are you attached to?

I am attached to not being poor. I am attached to not being afraind, not being uncertain, I am attached to finding a way to be safe.

This search for safety is a response to and a quest born of fear. To search for safety means you see danger as real. The more you search the more you establish danger as real, the more you establish danger as real, all the more and all the harder you must search for safety. And you will never find it while you see it as a solution to fear.
There is safety, a safety that has never known or contained any opposite. It is an ingredient of Love. You do not have to seek this safety, it simply is. And it is yours. All you have to do is see the causelessness of the fear.

hope this helps ~

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Patty,



Thank you for the response.  I actually agree with all that you
have said and have been blogging myself about connecting with the
feeling under our thoughts, feelings with affirmations and dismantling
belief systems.  We must deal with the underlying source that is
seperating us from God in order to allow for new. 



My question is about this THEORY of the law of attraction.  I will use a different example.



” I don’t want to be without a car.”

We are told that the universe will not hear the don’t but it will hear
that you want to be without a car. Therefore you will continue to be
without a car.  We are told to change it to  “I HAVE a car”.

If the universe is unable to hear the dont’, then if I say, “I don’t
have a car”, based on this principle shouldn’t the universe actually
hear, “I have a car”?  Sorry, I feel like I am talking in a riddle
but am I making any sense?



Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

here i am trying to put together insights into words and suggest a way with it, a few days of contemplating passing, seeing it from many aspects making it clear, talking with friends about it still, it might take a while longer before something comprehensive can be put into words..but its coming - namaste, yo

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Ok - sorry - I misunderstood..;-) I see what you are saying but have no response - perhaps someone more familiar with the presentation will be able to shed some light.
At any rate - I am sure it has much much more to do with feelings than it does with semantics ~

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hi Everyone,

     I've been reading this thread daily - over and over - and trying to digest it, absorb it, understand all of the views. Thank you everyone for your input, viewpoint, & wisdom.
    My “block” with The Secret & $$$ - when I first saw the movie I thought ”a ha …I've been worried about money ever since I became an adult and had to struggle and juggle (bills) to make it. I'm sick of worrying about money.  It never does any good and somehow I always make it so it's time to just stop the fear of not having enough.  It's the fear that is holding me back from manifesting wealth.“  Sounds good, sounds great, but it isn't all that easy to break a life time of habit.  And sometimes when I have no clue as to how I'm going to meet all of this month's obligations and payments …. that old fear still sets in.  I have a lot easier time of letting go of old habits when it comes to loving others … i.e. being kind, giving, forgiving (or to put it better, understanding that without judgment there is no need to forgive) etc.  However, when it comes to finances, even when I have success with using the “The Secret “I find that the happiness it brings is short lived and I start worrying about the next financial need.   I really want to stop doing this but seem somehow helpless to do so when the need for enough cash is so real if we are to keep a roof over our heads and food in our children's tummies.  All the good intentions or philosophical talk in the world doesn't delete that very real need of enough money. 
    Any thoughts?

With Love, Ayla
    
   

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Ayla,
I can relate to your predicament regarding not enough money.  I recently graduated from college with a degree that I can't use in my area.  The local job market filled up during my last year of school and now I'm stuck with loans, bill, and no job.  I sold everything I owned in order to go to school.  I was completely demoralized.  I found myself turning to Jesus (this is just my personal preference) because my life was bottomed out and had nowhere to go.  The bible says lay your troubles at the foot of the cross and believe - then ask Jesus anything.  Coincidentally (or not), things are going better for me since then.

Worry will not help the situation, it will just make it seem worse.  I know. You can only do your best.  If you are not doing your best, then start.  If you are doing all you can, then start thinking positiive thoughts - it will draw the positive energy towards you and life will become better.  This is what I think the law of attraction is - thinking positive thoughts, creates positive action.  By thinking negative ones, you draw the negative energy towards you and make things worse. Once you hit bottom, there is nowhere to go but up!  So hang in there!!!

peace…
T

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Aaaahhh Yosyama,

I somehow sensed that you were pondering out there and have been looking for you to show up.  I look forward to hearing from you.

Debby

‘I want to have this' with Attraction

Let's see if the following offers practical solution to integrating Attraction with Wanting.

We mean to attract things to us, and what actually happens is our projections are getting into relative orbit. Like in planetary attraction, a small planet in gravity propels a steady orbit around a larger planet, in similar way, if things we project seem relatively bigger than us, a cup of coffee is usually smaller but a car seems bigger and thus the relative motion is decided.

Yet, to overtake that and really have what we want, we must realize the field is usually much bigger than us and therefor, we must move into it, not wait for it. As an existing field of our Attraction already there, and this is in our capacity to establish ourself as center of gravity and start integrating.

The size, energy, placement, definition and positioning ourself are left for our free choice, at least from that new positioning we must learn and find how to gain access and engage with the content of our will.

Keep in mind that like with small planets, each with its center of gravity revolves around bigger planet, we try to accurately evaluate our contribution and needs, our talents, our style and communication skills within that field that we moved into, as these are our relative size and volume of gravity.

It certainly is a greater challenge to cross the projected fields of attractions and step into existing real fields, and that part  'The Secret'  fails to address.

Finally, if revolving the sun results with life on earth, than the movement that is propelled with wanting a car could also hint to some growth which is beyond. And if we fail to find the ultimate objective, consciousness become void, while with allowing the expansion Love manifests.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Ayla,

Are you familiar with T. Harv Ecker?  He talks about how we develop a blueprint in our childhood from what we heard about money or witnessed from our parents.  He says you need to identify what your deep seated beliefs about money are in order to break the cycle.

Have you ever noticed how many stories there are about poor people who have won the lottery and within a few years or so they are penniless again. 

Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Debby,

Hmmmm….did you sneak in to my head when I wasn''t looking? After writing the above, I actually had an epiphany about the exact subject that you just brought up!  My parent's were forever worried about money and never felt they had enough even though we were “middle class” - certainly not poor.  And that's right smack dab where I am!  Guess I better read some T. Harv Ecker, huh?  Thank you all for your input!

Have A Wildly Joyous Day!  Ayla

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Ayla,

There are tons of different books out there that cover the topic of what blocks us from our desires so you may want to explore and see what is the best fit for you.  Another simple analogy is the person that keeps trying to have a different kind of relationship but somehow finds out that they have unwittingly created the same dynamic.  They really want it to be different but are blocked by the underlying belief about relationships.  They have to address the belief in order to choose to let it go and open up to something new.

I am happy for you that it clicked for you,

Debby


Yosyama,

I have read what you shared about four times and am starting to grasp what you are saying but not even close to fully understanding.  I will read it a few more times.

thank you,

Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hi Debby and everybody :)

as to the subject of Attraction, i think my main find is that each of us is not the only center of gravity so, if we consider the relative mess and value of the participating elements with the aspects that form between them within a certain defined field of Attraction or Gravity, then this immediately results in other than we had in mind when we Wanted Something.

Depending on the relative messes, it is often required that we move instead of waiting for anything to arrive to us. And for moving inside a given field we must learn it well enough to draw a useful map..

Also meaning to explain why staying stable and thinking to attract anything by thought is often unsuccessful.

yosyama
*i edited the story on my profile ommiting major parts of it ; - )

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

yes, thought must be the momentum for action. that is very true so we must feel it as true and step into it.   What about the universe not hearing don't, won't, etc.?  I still don't get that when the table is turned on it.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Debby , why do you think the universe is not hearing ?

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

yosyama,

I don't even know if I am asking the question in a comprehensive way in the first place but you are asking me to find the answer and this made me laugh, because as a life coach it is what I would do with a client.  I am now wondering if I don't have a true knowing of the first part and therefore can't get the second part.  I must be using head knowledge as opposed to tapping into  the knowing within me.  I will stop looking outside and take some time with myself over it.

Thank you,

Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

okay, forgive me if i sound insane, or, worse yet, simple-minded… :)

i firmly believe the law of attraction is tied intrinsically to what we intend.  i also believe it's firmly based in what we accept as real.

i've been reading lots of books on the “illusion” of reality, or as the Indian mystics called it “Maya”.  specially, I was reading a book by Deepak Chopra, called Unconditional Life,  I certainly won't attempt to offer as synopsis of the book, but it brings up interesting ideas of how we conceive reality, and how we limit ourselves.  One of my favorite quotes is by (surprise, surprise) Deepak Chopra.  It says, “what we consider normal is the psychopathology of the average.”

Going deeper in to the idea of illusion, my favorite movie (the matrix–first one only) explores the idea of a shared reality that is not “true”, but it's really a construct in which we interact with each other, however we are limited, and ignorant– because we're really “asleep”.

All that said!  I believe that we are “taught” as children what to expect from reality.  we're marginalized, we're shown what's “realistic” and what's “unrealistic”.  we're shown by parents, family, friends, teachers, movies, popular culture, etc.. what to reasonably expect from life.  the more exposed we are to different possibilities, the more our minds re-map and change.  for example, a child who is brought up in a inner-city ghetto, and has never been shown a different alternative, cannot accept a reality that he can live differently.  it's ingrained in his mind that this is reality– it was reality for his family and his friends, and he sees all around him that ppl are living this reality..  and so it becomes true for him.  it becomes reality for him.  that's part of why exposure to different cultures and different experiences/places/ppl is necessary for anyone.  and sometimes, when flying to china isn't an option, reading about it is.  (that's my education soap but i digress)

My point is that we are brainwashed from birth to accept a certain view of the world.  there are ppl who have a racist view of the world, because they inherited it and did not challenge it.  and it's crucial to learn at a young age to challenge everything.

If i may suggest, the problem you're having Debby, and me (I'm in the same boat), is that we are starting to challenge things at an older age, and it feels wrong, because for x amount of years, and all around us, there's few ppl challenging “reality”.  or the illusion that we accept as reality.  true reality appears limitless, just like space– it make have a limit, but we're far from finding it.  it's scary to note the freedom we have in choosing how we exist in this space.  instead of using our power, we (as we are social beings) gravitate toward the consensus, and what everyone else is doing/living.  that's why there's much more nameless faces than there are Nelson Mandela's and Mother Theresa's.  Those ppl are revolutionaries who had the ability to use their power to create more peace in this world.  We all have that power, and should not celebrate these ppl as heroes, but as guides.  The difference between ppl like Martin Luther King and the average complainer is that he did not accept segeration as reality, and the complainer did.

Reeling it back it, you (and me also ) are in the precarious position of expanding what we believe is possible.  and what we accept as reality.  that may be your struggle, and not necessarily the law of attraction.  because if you believe it's possible to have a car, then there's nothing stopping it from happening, that's how powerful we are.  what limits us is how we filter our possibilities through our versin of reality… did anything like this happen for my siblings/family/friends/person on tv?  that's why i think it's incredibly important to research more “miracles”.. because inspiration actaully expands us, expands what we believe is possible.  it's an exercise.

wow.  i know i was trying to help you, but i think i helped myself more than anything! lol..  i fully believe what i'm writing here, and i hope you've come away with something of use. :)

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Kyo,

I agree with all that you have said and you expressed it beautifully.  Long ago in my early 20's, I no longer believed the world's story of who God is.  I have known about the law of attraction for many years and nothing in The Secret was new for me.  I have created many, many things that I have wanted in my life.  I do believe in the law of attraction and my power to create what I want.  I never really studied alot about it though.  It was more like I determined how I wanted my life to be and believed I could do it.  My Grandmother was like that and she was an inspiration to me.  I have made some big changes in my life in the last year and am stepping into my life purpose in a much fuller way.  The law of attraction has seemed to buzz around me in recent months, so I have paid more attention to it.   I have read a couple of detailed books about it and feel that there are contradictions within the theory of how The Universe responds to us.  It is a natural tendency for me to not buy into something unless it resonates within.  I'm not interested in taking on a belief, preferring to “get it” inside.  

 I have decided to move forward with what does resonate with me because it feels like I am not able to explain my question clearly enough or I am not able to see that it is being answered for me.  I really appreciate everyones effort to help very much though.  The question yosyama asked actually created a shift in me but I don't yet know where it is taking me.

love,
Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Hi Everyone,

Even though you're moving on, Debby, I have one more stream of thought to offer.  I wonder if looking so hard at the “words” themselves is the problem.  Maybe it's like Eckert Tolle's The Power of Now   …he's forever disclaiming what he is saying because by trying to talk and explain The Now it takes something away from it.  I find myself doing the same thing when I read about illusions etc.  While I was reading about our conditioning as children I had a flash about something I used to do as a little girl - I wanted to fly (I still want to, by golly!) and so I thought up a grand idea - every time we had a really windy day I would go get my purple Mary Poppins umbrella and jump off the top stairs of the porch.  Now, mind you, I was sure it was going to work.  It didn't, of course.  So that was my conditioning that I couldn't fly.  My parents are probably grateful that I didn't have access to the roof because, honestly, I think I might have tried it!  While thinking about that, I started to have doubts about manifesting physical “things”.  And then I remembered something that just happened within the last week- I tried manifesting $25K of an unexpected  windfall in 30 days and not only did it happen but I'm almost at $30K.  It isn't all in cash but it works out the same and a good percentage of it actually is in cash.  So why in the world am I doubting???? WORDS, THOUGHTS….instead of just going ahead  believing.   Do I think I'm going to come up with a million dollars?  Nah.  So I won't.  But my husband does, so hey, maybe we will!!!!  If so, y'all can find me in Africa helping the AIDES orphans!  THis is my greatest dream.

Hugs, Ayla

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Joshua,

I didn't realize you had posted this as well as sending it to me directly, so as you know I responded from my mail.  This is all great stuff and super helpful.   I am following your example and going inward. 

All,

I had explained to Joshua that I am preparing a presentation on the law of attraction and that is why it needed to feel congruent IN WORDS for me.  It is something I have always noticed about the theory but didn't get caught up in it and went about using what did fit for me.  As I said, I have manifested much of what I have wanted with a positive attitude, paying attention to my self-talk, transforming my perceptions and just believing things were possible over the years.  In taking a closer look at this for my work, I am realizing that I am to understand and “know” something that is not yet in my conscious mind.  Everyone joining me in my process on this pod has added a piece to my arriving at this place now.  Much, much appreciated.  So……………..I'll let you know…….

love,
Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Generally speaking, if 'Attraction' is an absolute law then 'That Which We Have'  is 'That Which We Attract'. and If we use words or any other mean and they fail to work for us;  we then can try to first of all learn how the law DOES work. To do that with words, we can take our description of the Real World with it's Faults,  meaning; our description as port - this how i take it, this is my proposal and i hope i made myself clear.

 
To Ayla, first of all, there is good learning done on this thread and your experience with posting your wish and receiving what you wished for, is of great significance to me and to all,  I hope.

In regards to flying, I can share this;  like you my biggest dream as child was to Fly, but I did. The flying is a unconceivable turn of decision in my Naval Area that brakes my alignment with the land and force me to use my wings. I have had dreams of flying since through many places and in space. In addition I developed an ability to view elements in space, in the room or landscape, with assimilating the moving eyes of a flying being, so that each instance in flying, the space changes its points of perspective and the elements in it look differently. So that I can suggest a flying experience be conceived as a stream views / experiences in space.

When I was deeply considering that, I realized the movement of the flying witness, must be subject to the flyer’s will. I mean the reason the space changes its centers of perspective is by choice. And that choice is what we really feel!

The first time I realized that, I also realized the void, and into this emptiness I placed a bunch of fresh flowers.

 
To Joshua; yes what you say sounds right, arriving at a wishful reality, we may start with reality. That is after meditating and realizing the dream in our minds and hearts,  ALL that must meet with the reality that we live in already, then these two intentions, the auto-pilot in stress and the awaken in dreamlike media, they may collide resulting in moments of high emotional realization with the necessary measures or work that follows!

 
To Debby, we must admit the gathering group here is working on is to benefit us all and i am waiting for what you come up with deeper - thanks.

what Kyo suggested first , juggling with Christianity; If Christianity can be summed up  in one word: Growth, then we are juggling it with Attracting - and Kyo’s last post (okay, forgive me if i sound insane..) moved me a lot !

thank ya all

love

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Ayla,

Yes, you are absolutely right!  I was getting caught up on the words.  In preparing for the presentation I was reading a lot about it because I knew there were parts of it that I had not taken in along my path. The books do seem to focus tremendous amount on words but I get Joshua's point in why they do.  I have gotten really quiet with myself over it today and have been thinking about all the things people have shared and connecting with how I have manifested things in my life…connecting to the feeling of those time and even things happening for me in the present.   Joshua saying that on a deeper level the universe doesn't really hear words is what came to me while connecting to my spirit.  Everything that I have created is beyond words and I do feel the universe inside of me when I reflect on it………….that's as far as I am. 

I love Eckert Tolle.  I have been listening to him as I fall asleep at night.  I am getting pretty good at being the observer of myself.  I see that I was getting tangled up in head knowledge (being the thinker) about it because of the presentation and needing words for others.  I was doing it backwards because I was exploring it from the outside before exploring it inside first  and coming up with the words from within.

Thanks, Debby

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

Debby,
        I like that, I was doing it backwards too and when I started doing it the other way and the results were so wonderful that I kept doing it that way. Prison gave me the time to do this, to explore the truth inside first and this is how I overcame depression and I quite depressing my spirit.  Now I don't depress anything. The steps I took I have written in my book , “Inside Out”, so others may find the truth for themeselves. I feel I have so much in common with Eckert Tolle and others like him that have overcome depression.  Someday we will meet and sit down together.

Re: Juggling Christianity with the Law of Attraction

yosyama,

Great input………very well said………. and good point about Ayla's manifesting the money……………

Ayla, Share with us?

Ayla: "instead of just going ahead believing"

please allow this on Attraction

The reason the world never replies is because we never ask properly.

To ask properly we must see that which we wish to be, as vividly and lovely as we follow the envisioning we let more joy pour into this instance.

And when we have that feeling when we know what we wish for is so beautiful so glorious when it is vibrating with clear love and happiness at that moment; hold it dearly in our heart when we are KNOWING it is 100% possible.