Continuation, Immortality or God

When we pray to God, or Gods; when we follow doctrine or re-read the myths, when we chant or meditate or rock and roll to the upbeat of soul; are we honoring God, are we worshipping our diety of choice; or are we attempting to find certainty that, when we return from heaven at the behest of the Lord, will will know where we are, who we are, what we are?

There are a lot of things in various religions (feel free to mention any you can think of) which would seem to work in such a manner that God will never change from the aspect we view now; that all of our connections and relationships with God will never change; that the physical structures of our beliefs will remain undiminished though they last through eons and eons.

If heaven is paved with God and Saint Peter keeps the books, then your name is always writ right where and when it should be.  Nirvanna will always be found in the same glorious mead hall.  When we return with the Messiah or Lord, we will be who we are now, and all of our family and aquaintences will always be the same as they are now.

If we die and go to Heaven, we will not be reborn as a tree or a frog or a burning lava boulder in the middle of a flow.  How much of what we ask of God is based on our need for some form of immortality, and how much of it is based on wanting to know about God?

My understandings of things is that we are created and recreated unsing energy as the physical building blocks of our bodies, with a strong connection from our minds to the Consciousness of God, which is the super soul, the all containing the universe and whatever lies just beyond and before.  Energy exists within God Consciousness, so it acts upon us as we stide and strive and struggle towards enlightenment as water dissolving salt.

As we are born and reborn each time we connect with a different perspective of God, and learn that perspective (plus as much of any other as possible), holding our aquired knowledge within our connection to the Consciousness of God.  But I do not consider only human beings to able to reach into the consciousness, nor to limit that ability to just animals of the land, airs and seas.  I believe all beings (vegetable, mineral, animal) progress within the Consciousness of God towards immersion into God.

To do this, one would have to learn from the perspective of a piece of gravel along a country road as well as the Archbishop of Canterburry sitting on a throne.  There would be no guarantee that, once set loose from current life, you would return into a situation or mythology which had been assurred from a previous life.  The end result is still going to God, but the journey can be unfamiliar at times, and the lessons drastically removed from any text books we had memorized at any time before.

I believe the totality of God to be more than any one of us at any one time can hold and comphrehend.  A lot of our physicallity turns out to be just for the job of keeping the physical body alive and not necessarily needed for learning about God.

So, can we separate those things within our beliefs that we use to maintain our; for lack of a better term; faith immortality, from the things which leave us be to look into the soul of God and there realize all that is?

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

As we consider ourselves (human beings) to be the only image of God, we separate ourselves from the whole of the creations of God.  In doing so, we limit ourselves in the understandings of the universe and the Consciousness which contains all things.  Seeing only energy, and recognizing only that energy which either is considered to be “alive” or to to be “life sustaining” as reality, we see of God only that which is energy or the result of the expression of energies.

How can we assume enlightenment lies at the end of such a separate path?  How can we understand our planet, how can we understand how to not just co-exist with our planet, but to recognize that we are all beings within the great being of consciousness?  We are now faced with our own sad future because of the global warming we have heralded along with our strict focus on energy, power, strength.  How do we heal what we have wounded if we maintain our separation from all other created beings?  How do we truely plumb the origins and meanings of the universe if we maintain our separation from all other created beings?  How do we realize the meaning of the love of God, if we see no other results of that love than ourselves?

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

all good stuff Dennis. 

i could wish to have more to contribute, but i suspect as you seem to, and have many of the same questions.

what do you see as the root cause of the barriers that stand in the way of such realizations?

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Joshua:

I think it is a self afflicted arrogance on our part, by and large, which maintains this separation.  Having said that, let me put that arrogance into some type of perspective, since both the word and the actions of arrogance are usually held to be negative in nature.

From the time we first became aware of God, or a conflamerate of Gods, we have based our understandings of life and death, the here and now and the here after, the origin of all things and the dissolution of all things, on what we have been told by our God, or Gods, either through recognized intermediaries (priests, prophets, sooth sayers, etc.) or (much more rarely) face to face.

As we are made physically of energy, our thought patterns are energy based.  To understand new things, we first try comparing the new things to some form or function of an energy in order to put it within a framework we can deal with.  If we cannot hammer the new thing into some form of energy, then it is held as a mystery, a myth, a UFO.  The connection we have with the Consciousness of God through our minds compells us to seek God, yet how we interpret what we find (since there are more things than energy in the universe) determines what we believe we have found.

When our population on this planet was primarily scattered in varying relatively small groups separated by geography and language and custom, the importance of the word of God, or Gods, to our existance was compounded by those separations. 

Considering our need for God, and our physical and mental reliance upon energy (energy always moves, energy is measured and valued in terms of strength, or power) it is some what understandable that a good deal of our histories have been the result of religious strife; a strife that, to a very real degree in many places, continues today.

As energy is a perspective of God, so too is non energy (for which I do not yet have a communicable definition or description).  Look in Taoism (my personal favorite, although I would not presume to call myself a Taoist) or Buddism (among others) to see teachings which are concerned with non energy and our relationship in the universe to both it and energy.    Yet, even in these beliefs, there have been periods and legacies of strife.

As the world has grown small due to the population growth of humanity, we have tended, to a great degree, to toleration with respect to religions differing from our own.  Yet, even then, the toleration has not been deep enough to anchor us in peaceful waters when an ill wind bears down forcefully upon us.  A speaker I once heard (and I wish I could remember who it was, but I had the radio on just for the noise while I did homework, and this was towards the last of the talk and the only thing which stuck in my mind), described humanity this way: there are 3 types of people; those who will follow their morals and what they consider to be “good” no matter what; those who will do harm and promote destructive chaos whenever they can; and those who mind the middle of the road until a strong leader of one ilk or the other comes along to take them in whatever direction they can with whatever force and persuation is at their command.

I think that, to a great extent, this is true.  We have the luxury (in the USA, as well as many other countries) to not have to balance the needs and commands of a leader against our lives and the safety of our families (more so if we are fortunate enough to have the right ethnicity and the right amount of income), but hard times can lead to hard choices, and history is rife with stern examples.

Although we now have the ability to, at a mouse click, study any religion and/or any science we wish; although we now can, with the same mouse click, speak with peoples in places that were unknown to the Western world even 50 years ago (so much for separations), we are still at the mercy of our focus on energy and still need to think and accept in the terms of energy. 

As my understanding teaches me that everyone is following their own path, I cannot proclaim that what I believe is true for everyone, and I cannot exert others towards accepting my beliefs as theirs.  Belief must be the result of learning from your path as you follow it.  But I have also learned that, understanding why I am following my path, teaches the requirement for toleration for others following their paths.  How I do so miss Howard Issaccs, who labored dearly to teach me this, and so much more.  How I wish I had been a better student.

I believe that, as we are all beings within the great being within the Consciousness of God, that love and kindness and faith and joy are all interpretations of that beingness which we, in true energy terms, define as emotions which we seldom share with more than a few others.  I think that we can accept and explore that beingness without fear of having to give up energy or to change who and how we are.  Energy tells us that, when there are great changes in our understandings (politics included), the old has to be destroyed to make room for the new; but I do not think this is so.  Realization does not require destruction, only learning and acceptance (this so does not translate into anything to do with the Borg!).

I hope I have answered your question, somewhere in all of this.  In any case, it should be a lesson to you concerning asking me questions on a quiet Sunday afternoon :-).  Now, what are your ideas about what causes these separations?

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

god….gods….prayer.  I know prayer to be a way to commune and connect with that which is not material….or at least, that which is beyond matter.  Prayer is a method, to me. God…well, this word describes enlightenment. And the Gods…well, this to me are the beings that have progressed beyond matter.  They can be contacted, assistance might be had for those that open themselves to it.  I do not so much rely on such things.  I have found it better to seek my own enlightenment.  I read with a feeling of sadness the words about global warming, etc…..but I did reflect that that might be the course of the planet, the course of the universe.  Enlightenment cannot be theoretical.  A belief should lead to an action.  There have always been challenges and risks to humanity.  And even on a personal level, we have to face our own death.  Enlightenment is to face our own Life, and know that all MUST change, and that which is material can not be permanent.  To illumine the mind that cannot understand what it is and what it sees, this is the only freedom.  Only from here can we know how to respond and react to what is happening in a way that brings the greatest good.  Sometimes I use prayer as a practice, a way to help the stubborn mind to release its doubt.  Heaven, Hell, and Peter Paul…I am them all!  Where they have gone, I have become.  If you know yourself matter, you will always change into something else, so they say….but to know yourself divine, what can you be that you don't enjoy!

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Attainment:

You wrote: “If you know yourself matter, you will always change into something else, so they say….but to know yourself divine, what can you be that you don't enjoy!”  How about broccoli?  I mean, yetch; it is what you come back as when your karma has really been naughty:-).  No, really, just kidding.  I've never met a piece of broccoli that I didn't like; from a distance.

It is good to have your joyful posts roaming through these various threads.  It is good to listen to you.  Thanks!

Prayer and meditation are often the same thing, provided you do not put too much energy into the framework of prayer.  When you pray, you tend to focus on your perception of God, or Divinity, and during that period, whatever else that may be going on around you, it dissolves into the backround of energy so that you are more aware of the silence that is the Consciousness of God.  Once you realize the silence, the Consciousness, you have the ability to realize that you are face to face with the whole of creation.

There are some Native American prayer which begin with the phrase (usually uttered with your arms outstretched slightly over your head) “All my ancestors…” or “All my relations…”  These are prayers in which you recognize the existance of our beings within the Consciousness, and realize the intricate and subtle meshing of souls which enable us to reach out within eternity seeking love and guidence.  In these, you are not only speaking with God, but also with everyone you have ever been or ever will be, and everyone who has ever been related, in one way or another, to you.  In these, you cannot feel aloneness, you cannot withdraw into a separate being.  So, even though you may feel you are blazing your own trail through your prayers, the un-noises from the silences of Consciousness wander within you whispering love, knowledge and joy.  Even if you do not hear it, even if you do not sense it, even if you do not feel it, even if you did not ask for it,  That is what eternity is for.

I have found that I must be careful in setting up goals and then in creating methodologies through which to realize those goals.  For a methodology to be any good, it must contain a mechanism which allows you to measure your progress in reach for your goals.  If you want to lose 20 pounds, first you must lose 5 pounds, then 10, then 15, then backslide to celebrate and redouble the effort to get back to the -15 pounds.

In any case, the whole methodology and the whole goal you are striving towards are constructed using energy thought processes, the result being that you have to depend upon the dualism of energy in order to reach your goal, and to realize that you have either reached your goal or missed the mark entierly.  This limits the goals you can set up for yourself, and it severely limits the manners through which we can realize whether or not we have attained the goal.

In opening yourself up to both energy and Consciousness, you are able to use the whole of your being and the whole of the being of God in striving after your questions and in realizing the meanings of the answers returned.

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Dennis, how beautiful your words are.  I had the feeling of sitting with you having a cup of tea, enjoying listening to you so much.

I felt it interesting that you mentioned Native Americans.  My father is Cherokee, and my mother is Irish!  I was raised watching my great grandparents and my grandparents chant to the end of their days.  We knew it a very common thing that our forefathers and relatives cared for us deeply and we were to respect them.  And they helped us, as we often needed it.  I was raised in an atmosphere where there was no indoor plumbing or lights till I was 12. We used well-water, and bathed in rainwater caught in a tub (after many others had bathed in it!).  It was a beautiful life.  And certainly communion both with those around you and those you could not see seemed important.   We needed each other to live and survive.  And the wisdom of those before us came to them easily, I think. 

I had not thought about it, until I read your post and began to reflect.  Somehow, in some recess inside me, I that's why I seek enlightenment.  I desire so much the communion, the connection with all.  I don't feel enough of that just how I live.  In some strange way, I need more….I actually need it.  And, I guess, in some way, I'm some envious of those that can be so satisfied with what they feel.  I do know myself as an extraordinary “feeler!”  The smallest touch and I am deeply moved.

Your words about methodology, I agree with.  Only some methodology is to reduce methodology.  I will tell you, it is so, everyone….everyone tells me I am so intense for this thing called enlightenment.  But your words say it well, “you are able to use the whole of your being.  The whole of your being of God.”  I want to say that again I like it so much, “you are able to use the whole of your being. The whole of your being of God”  Yes, that is it!  Maybe from today on, I will not call it enlightenment.  I will say, “I am able to use the whole of my being. The whole of my being of God”   I would never be able to measure in a way that a method would allow.  But I am able to observe and see when mind is all I see, or when it is quiet enough that the great light grows in me.  And with practice, I have come to know this great light and it becomes so intense within me.  And we have become…well, is it childish to say, 'friends'?  It took years of practicing stilling the mind, watching the breath, sitting still and quiet, reducing my mind, prayer (yes, a lot of prayer).  And suddenly one day I gave birth to a light within, and now it grows in me.  and I nurture it every day.  Waiting for it to overcome me.  for me to lose my identity in it.  And then I will say when someone asks, “The whole of my Being is God!”  I will probably always say it with tears in my eyes.  As once upon a time, the whole of my being was Shirley….and a little divine.  And I pray one day the Whole of my being is Divine with a little bit of Shirley. 

But, you have brought me somewhere beautiful.  You have tearfully reminded me how much I wish to be with those I love that I do not see anymore, that I have never seen,.  Those that I know love me, and I yearn with great intensity to be with love and to share love and never be separated from it!  Maybe this is called “enlightenment.”

Thank you so much for your post.  It has brought me much.

sincerely,

shirley

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Shirley:

Thank you for your most kind words.  I am happy that you found something usefull in my post, but I cannot take credit for your understandings; you did all the work involved in understanding while I just sat and drank tea.

It is good you were able to have a youth grounded in such a way.  It sounds as if it has provided you with a good start on your path.

My wife is part Cherokee.  Her paternal Grandmother was full blood, but passed none of the knowledge to her children or grandchildren.  She was embarrassed to be Cherokee at a time when it was very difficult for “Indians” (I don't know if the term “Native American” was even in use then) to be considered as valid human beings, let alone equals, by a very large part of the population.  From what I have heard from Jackie's (my wife) family, she had a caustic personality and was not difficult to dislike as a result; but we wander now how much of that was her and how much of it was her appreciation of the situation she felt herself placed into by people and events beyond her control.

As a result, Jackie had no knowledge of, or appreciation for, her Cherokee heritage.  When we moved to South Carolina, she became close friends with one of the women she worked with, who was part Lakota, and who just happened to be taking classes on Native American Spiritualality in Asheville with a full blooded Lakota named Howard Issacks.  Before long, Jackie was going with her to the classes, and becoming literally transformed by all she was learning.  After a good bit of begging on my part, she agreed to let me go once, just so I would have a base of reference for what was going on.  Little did I know.

I suppose I was the typical “wannabe” for a while, until (through Howards persistance and patience) I began to understand what Howard was saying instead of understanding what Howard was saying after having been interpreted by my white, male, protestant heritage.  Jackie was always far ahead of me, so I was able to benefit from her understandings, as well.  The more we learned, the more we began to understand other beliefs as well.  Howard taught not from the basis of immediacy, but from the perspective of the universe and the timeless wandering of all things through the soul of the Great Spirit.  He made us understand that existance does not emmanate from us to everything else, but that we are part of what exists through the emmanations of the Great Spirit, however our present path may compel us to consider the Great Spirit to be or not be.

Howard passed from us a few years ago.  I deeply regret I was not a better student while he was here, but appreciate how fortunate I am because I am still learning from the aspect and memories of his presence and guidence.  Every once in a while, we feel his presence, and it provides us a quiet moment in which to relax and be thankful.

I understand your yearning for “communion” and for the ability to be “enlightened”.  I am by nature an introvert, and I have battled depression on an almost daily basis for years.  Jackie is quite the opposite; as I sense you are; an extrovert almost to eccentricity.  People meet her and, almost immediately, they know her, and she has the wonderful ability to; seemingly without effort on her part; make you feel better about yourself and the world around you just by being in the same room.  I will never understand what she sees in this “old grump”, but I am smart enough not to ask too many questions.

Sometimes we search for “communion” because we find something missing in ourselves we feel we cannot provide on our own.  Sometimes it is because we have a bad self image and need reasurrance on a massive level.  Sometimes we seek “communion” because we don't understand it is already here.  Sometimes it is due to a competitive nature or a deep feeling that we have to please others.  Sometimes we seek because we know it is there, but have just not learned how to recognize it yet.  And sometimes it is a progression through all of these.  For extroverts, though, it is just their nature, no matter how much they may or may not understand it.

I would not presume to try to catagorize your searchings; that is something only you can do.  If you feel there is not enough “communion” or “connection” in your life as it is, then don't try to make your search too complicated.  Complexity has its uses, but sometimes it can take you in directions you really, really don't want to go in.  Many times simplification works best.

If you want to experience “connection”, here is a lesson Howard taught us.  Go to your yard, or a park; somewhere where it is relatively quiet.  Find a small rock or pebble.  Pick it up and roll it gently in your hands.  If it is smooth, feel the smoothness.  If it has sharp edges or a rough surface, feel the sharpness or roughness through your hands, without looking at it.  After a few minutes, find a position of comfort for it in your hands, and sit down in the grass and relax around the stone, emptying your mind of as much as you can.  At some point (although it does not always happen the first, or first few, time you try it) you will be able to converse with the stone as if you were sisters; and then the grass will join the family, and any trees which may be near, and then the air itself if you can last long enough.

My, but how I have gone on.  That will teach you to offer me compliments.  Please excuse my jabberings, but it has been a while since I have had enough time to spend on this site speaking with someone.  I hope I have not, at some point, stuck my feet in my mouth.  As I said earlier, I quite enjoy reading your posts.  I assure you, whatever you feel you have learned from me, I have learned more from you.

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Dear Dennis;

You have never once put your foot in your mouth.  To the contrary, I find you a wonderful mirror.  I haven't the least bit of doubt what your wife sees in you. 

Thank you sincerely for sharing your story with me.  It is meaningful.  And I deeply connect and understand every word.  My name is “Shirley” because my father didn't want anyone to know I was Indian.  My full name is Shirley Cheyenne.  My mother wanted it to be Cheyenne, but my father screamed, NO…no one will not she's Indian.  So what does he choose but “Shirley” after the actress “Shirley Temple!”  Can you imagine?  I have laughed my whole life that he named me that.  I have thought to myself, 'why didn't he name me “Apple Pie!”  But I have come to identify with the name.

But I understand my father's point of view.  He was the last of 16 children, his father didn't know his name, and I watched my mother teach him to read and write.  There was nothing to brag about in terms of culture, as I remember it.  Everyone was continually drunk.  At least all the men were always drunk, completely utterly gone!  The woman were always cooking and taking care of the children.  I lived in what's called a “holler' with all my relatives.  If you imagine 14 aunts and uncles each having 10 or more kids…then you've picture.  The richness that I most enjoyed was the earth.  We literally were not allowed in the house except to eat.  It was living with the animals and the creeks, and my bare feet on the ground, and my dirty face and my rude-no- home-training cousins.  We were absolutely wild.  And we often gathered around my uncles as they were fist fighting each other over some name-calling that went on.  And I recall all the times we went to get my father from jail, until my mother decided to just leave him in there!  But even with all that, it was just the attitude that you could smell knowledge, that the earth was ours, that you needed it to live, and we were all the same, poor, and needed one another.  You knew you'd always be helped for whatever you needed. 

I am introvert, (I have been tested by a gentleman that works for the government).  And I think we are prone to depression.  I think somehow that is our disease.  I saw it coming and that's when I began to seek how to escape this thing called 'mind.'  After practicing Zen for a short time, I saw they were perfectly correct.  That every thought causes a tension in the body.  It was easy to see.  And when I reflected that we then act that out - and really, I wondered, to what gain?  What's the point in continually thinking and acting out all this tension.  And when I studied and read that you can get rid of this mind, that you can live with no-mind…that it isn't really necessarily to live with this duality.  Well, Dennis, I confirmed deep in my heart that that was for me!  And I saw no reason to pursue anything else until I could rid myself of this 'thing' called mind. And live as myself….without this torture.  And I committed my whole life to practice.  And the great teachers have never lied.  I believe we don't need it.  I am enough unto myself.  I seek relief, probably as you do, from the disease called 'mind.' 

And as far as communion, god, I miss my roots. I did what my father wanted, I live the American Dream.  I married a very kind man, who the whole of his being is intellectual. He is truly brilliant.  I live in a castle and I relate to the doctor's wives.  I did what he wanted.  And all I want with all my heart is to run barefoot, play in the creeks, scream and holler, clean 'grannybeads' from the children's necks, sit on the porch in a squeaky rocking chair, and throw rocks at the neighbor's barn.  My husband is the kindest person I ever met, but he literally never relates with feelings.  It's always intellectual.  That's his way.  And he is charming and beautiful.  But I am like a strange bird from a different county.  And my life comes to me like a horn blowing on me.  It hurts somehow.  Yet, I feel deeply responsible for what I have created.  And I positively seek a way to find the depth of connection that I yearn for inside.  

That is the undercurrent of what is still a happy life.  I have five young children myself, and I play joyfully with them all day!  And I believe, Dennis, I will prove the teachers right.  I love practice as the Indians loved the Sun.  The Great Spirit can be touched and lives always within everything.  And the joy I feel to be on this path, traveling daily closer to God.  And to honestly feel that I will achieve my heart's desire, fuels my heart, my mind, and my every move!  Sometimes in my own little tiny world,I feel like the Last Samurai.  I believe in the Master's words, and I train every second to realize them!  I want to be their daughter.  That is where my roots probably show.  I want my ancestors to be proud of me!  I want the teachers to call me their daughter.  And my joy is…I believe I will do it!  

You have given me so much by sharing.  I wish I could embrace you and tell you, 'thank you for your time.'  I have not spoken to anyone ever about what I am telling you.  Only because it has never seemed relevant.  So…it has been so good to share.  Thank you.

I wish you a perfect day, Dennis!

Sincerely,
Shirley (Temple)

 

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Shirley:

Please excuse my tardiness in getting back to this.  I hope to have some free time on Thursday evening to get back into this interesting discussion, as well as some others that are, thanks to you, taking off again.  Thanks for your patience and caring.

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Dear Beautiful Dennis;

You don't have concern yourself to respond to my 'diary', huh?  But…nevertheless, I truly enjoy conversation with you!  You have a wonderful mind!   You say you are negative…I find you charming and thrilling!

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Shirley:

Yes, yes, I know something of what you went through your name.  I have an older brother by just about 18 months; so I was to be the daughter they had really wanted when my brother was born.  When I came along, the only name they had picked out was “Denise”.  With a casual recasting of a couple of letters, I was announced to the world as “Dennis”, and to close family members as “Denney”.  As I grew older and more and more responsible for the nomenclature others used in refering to me, “Denney”, gradually became uttered in my presance only by those Aunts and Uncles and Cousins and Grandparents who would always know me better by “Denney”, and only know me formally as “Dennis”.   Could have been worse though, asI had a friend whose Father's name actually was “Shirley”, and that is what he went by and I don't recall any social problems he endured as a result.  Of course, he was a large, garralous man who did not necessarily frequent the many bars in our small town, but who, on the otherhand, was not entierly unknown to any number of bar tenders and night deputies.

It sounds as if you had a difficult childhood, in several aspects.  But, contained within the difficulties were the wonderful traditions of family and the life sustaining connection to the earth.  These things will always be with you, will always be just where and when you need them to be, especially as you raise your family and take careful attention to their needs.

Howard spent a great deal of effort in teaching us about the different paths people take in their lives; how, with each life, we have things we have to learn and experiences we must have in order to learn those things the Great Mystery has put before us.  He taught that, between lives, we could enlist the help of friends to go into the next live with us in order to “help” us learn whatever it was we needed to learn, either the first time or time after time after time.

The hardest thing for me to learn in this, were lessons in harm to others.  There are those who come back as murderers, rapists, thugs and swindlers of every stripe.  Sometimes these people are learning their own lessons; remember, we are energy and energy attaches better with that which moves rather than that which analyses through different means than energy.  I just did not see why there needed to be people to learn how to harm others, in every conceivable way.  Howard took me aside and used the example of a young scout whose only gift is the ability to be an exceptional archer.  It was his only gift, the only contribution he could make to the people who depended upon wild game for sustenence and unhesitent warriors when attacked by enemies.  Then there is the possibility that a lesson goes unlearned; in which case it must be repeated until it is learned.  If you have a lesson to make people laugh or to be comfort to those who are sick and/or dying, then those are lessons worth learning.

But we live within energy and we think within the manner of energy, and so our lessons, as we interpret them, will always have the balance of good and bad, helpful and harmful, uplifting and down trodden.

But, somewhere within all the energy reflexes and the energy anylisys and the contents of Consciousness, there are clues on how the lessons can be learned and not involve the harming of others.  The trick is to figure out what you are learning, how it functions within the energy part of us, and how that can translate to Consciousness, where energy is a subset, a school of fish within an ocean.  And this is where the ultimate meanings of our lessons reside.

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that, (as has already been said by someone else, somewhere) in defining enlightenment down to the last possible detail, we are in turn defining God, for which enlightenment acts as the final tunnel we must cross through in order to find God.

In that definition, we are greatly limiting what God can be by defining what enlightenment must be in order to reach God.  We are restraining our mental abilities to consider Consciousness as more than just the awareness of others around us and the possibikity of God.  An interesting situation.

Well, I guess I've been up on my soap box for a while.  Sorry for running on.  I think of all the wonderful people who contribute to these posts and their wealth of learning and understanding, and I feel like I could might maybe be a fair shade tree mechanic.  Oh well.

I hope all is well with your family.  If I might ask one favor of you, though.  In your last post you ended with “ I find you charming and thrilling!”.  First off, you have a great sense of humor, and second, would you mind passing that alone to my wife?  She sometimes, for reasons I will never understand,  forgets.  Thanks.

Blessings and Peace

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

I have been wondering a lot lately about the concept of suffering.  Suffering because of attachment, suffering due to karma, suffering due to the newness of the soul, suffering because of physical ills or emotional difficulties, suffering due to lost love or lost friends, suffering due to the constant nearness of death.  It seems whatever we do, which ever way we turn, it is our lot to suffer.

I heard a joke the other day which I found hilarious on first telling.  On further study, the joke still remains funny, but for some reasons I did not immediatly understand.  Here is the joke:

A man, who had a good paying job and a nice house, returned home from work one night.  As soon as he walks through his front door, he hears a voice say “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!”

After finding no one else in the house, the man just chalked the strange voice up to some slight tension he was having at work, and went about his normal evening routine.

The next night, as the man was walking through his front door upon coming home from work, the same voice; only this time louder; spoke out “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!”

Sure that someone was playing a practical joke on him, the man searched his house with a fine tooth comb, looking for concealed speakers of some kind.  After nothing turned up, he once again blamed the voice and its content on stress, and vowed to take a little vacation after finishing the rather large project he was currently working on.

The next night, on returning home from work, the man came to his back door through the yard of the neighbor behind him, and ever so quietly, crept into his house.  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  Once again, he looked for speakers in the house, then scoured the neighborhood around him for antenna's of any kind which he hadn't noticed before.  No one sitting in a parked car down the street watching his house.  No luck.

This routine continued for several weeks.  Every night after work, as soon as he entered his house “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  Gradually, the voice repeated during the evening, every hour on the hour “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”

When the man tried to sleep, the voice would take over his dreams “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”

The man took a room at a hotel downtown, reasoning that the voice was only presenting itself when he was at home.  The man did not hear the voice in the hotel room, got a good nights sleep, and went in to work the next morning bright and refreshed and pleased with himself for having outsmarted the mysterious voice.

As soon as he entered his office door “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”

Finally, the man could not take it any more.  He marched down to his bosses office and resigned his position.  When he left his former employment, he went straight to a realtor and put his house up for sale.  In a few days a buyer for the house appeared, and the transaction was completed in short order.

“Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”

The man took the check he got for his house to the bank, cashed it, and put all the money in a large brief case.  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  he also withdrew his life's savings, and put that in the brief case as well.

He then went to the airport, and took the first available plane to Las Vegas.  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”  “Quit your job, sell your house, take all the money and go to Las Vegas!!!”

After arriving in las Vegas with only his brief case for luggage, the man stood in the air port lobby wondering what to do next.  Shortly, the voice said “Get a cab and go straight to Ceaser's Palace!”.  Without hesitation, the man went outside, hailed a cab, and was driven to Ceaser's Palace.

Once inside the casino, the man barely had time to look around when the voice came very strongly “Go to the roulette wheel!!!!”.  Without flinching, the man headed towards the first roulette wheel he saw, fully determined to following whatever order the voice now barked out.

At the roulette wheel, the voice said, very calmly and with steely authority:  “PUT ALL THE MONEY ON 17!”.  The man obeyed.  The roulette wheel operator, with a mightly effort, spun the wheel so hard that the numbers all looked like blurs.  Around and around the wheel clicked and clattered.  A cold sweat broke out on the mans forehead.  With time and place suspended in slow motion, the wheel gradually, awfully, jerkily, slowed until it could spin no farther, and the clicker pointed at 38.

There was a numbing silence.  The man stood there, glued with disbelief to the floor.  Somewhere on the periphery of his vision, the operator took the brief case, the other players returned to the contest, chips jinggled, slot machines whirred, waitresses slithered through the crowd.

And the voice said “DAMN!!!!!”.

I need to take a short break. 

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

That is pretty funny.

And a bit haunting.

Much like suffering? (at least at a distance)

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Yes, my wife and I thought it very funny.  It was told by the morning DJ on the radio station set on our alarm clock.  I don't generally have complimentary things to say about things which wake me up in the morning, but this was a notable exception.

The suffering in the joke is camoflaged by the inherent (customary) humor in the piece.  The man in the piece suffers at every turn.  He is selected, it would appear, at random by an unknown and unseen being who harrasses him to the point of capitulation, and then costs him his job, his house, all of his money and perhaps his sanity.  And he seemingly has no choice, is no more than a puppet following the jerking of the strings by an unseen, unknown, uncaring, malicious, being.

It is funny because the situation (to the great majority of us) is exagerated and the outcome preposterous, and so no one is really hurt.  It is a story, a fantasy.  And haunting because of the controlling being.

Suffering comes in many forms, many formats, from many sources, including ourselves.  Suffering usually consists of some type of pain, either physical, emotional, financial, societal or all of the above.  Anything which causes us pain or discomfort can said to be suffering.  We suffer from, suffer through, suffer because…it is my pain, my disease, my problem, my endurance.  Every aspect of suffering is internalized.

And suffering makes us unhappy, makes our karma good or bad, deters us from or enables us towards a higher level of spiritual consciousness.  In fact, if we do not suffer, our passage through the spiritual hierarchy is either suspect, threatened or we have no place higher to go.

I wonder about the concept of suffering lately.  I have done my share of it, and no doubt have more to do; but is it really suffering?  I have “suffered” from depression for many years.  The last few years I have not aged gracefully, to say the least.  My wife and I have been married 33+ years, and have had our share of difficult ones.  I have made some bad decisions, and I have been on the wrong end of someone elses bad decisions.  In that respect, my life has not been atypical.

But what about the suffering?  Dealing with the depression early on almost forced me into developing my sense of humor, and my love of humor.  It has also made me analyse my relationships with other people, and how I perceive the world around me.  For much of my life I have been an introvert, at times almost a hermit.  While this has hindered me socially, and fostered overcompensations at various points, it has also allowed me time and place to observe without attachment and to be able to think about those observations in relative privacy.

Even the physical frailities which cause me pain have been lessons, and I do not think I really consider them “suffering” any more.  The pain is part of my physical reality; part aging and part self neglect (surfing the internet is really not a form of physical exercise, you know).  It is caused by the continual change our physical bodies go through.

The voice in the joke can be interpreted as a substitute for God, or as ego.  If we anger God, then we suffer the results.  To many, the ego is an almost montrous being which considers us little more than puppets on the end of strings.  The ego is part of us, perhaps even self inflicted.  It pulls and antagonizes us away from the spiritual, attempting to thwart our every attempt at peace and happiness. It is suffering to the max.

But what if the ego is not that at all?  I am not trying to minimize anyone elses suffering, or to act out of disrespect for anyone's life considerations.  But what if suffering is not what we customarily interpret it as?  What if suffering is what we have been taught it is?  How do we deal with spirituality without suffering?

Blessings and Peace.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Dennis >>> To many, the ego is an almost monstrous being which considers us little more than puppets on the end of strings.

Well, that's not my model of the ego.

Which raises an interesting topic - how to model out, map out, the variation in ego-models we find in the seeker class of humans?

There's lots of different models of ego - I wonder if there is some kind of logical pattern of those models?

—-

Your ultimate paragraph tho is pretty vague. You've asked some questions - what kind of answers is your brain and mind generating?

—-

I remember some wise guy, back in the day, who's trip was that he was teh prophet of a new law, “All is Joy”, as kind of an inverse of old gotama's Dhukka.

His logic was that what we see as suffering was actually a kind of joy, in the sense of extreme sensation, and that all extreme sensations, such as orgasm and agony, were variations on a theme.

He did not get very far with his prophecying, as I recall. “All is Joy” seemed to be perceived as not as too hedonic to be taken seriously as a popular teaching.

Religion is a response to pain, I (and others) have theorized. A coping mechanism to relieve inherently non-relieveable anxieties.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Bill:

Yes, I suppose I was fairly vague last night.  Some of this is still bouncing around in my thick skull, so I do not have a completely finished concept to work further on.

My basic idea is not a renunciation of suffering, nor a pie in the sky (images of laurel & Hardy & W. C. Fields versus the 3 Stooges just outside the bakery are somehow prolifigate) philosophy.

We are made of energy, which is the basis of duality.  Our minds function via energy, and so our thoughts are based in the duality of that energy.  Most people consider whatever religion/belief system/spiritual concept they feel closest to as good.  If something is good, then something else has to be bad.

Pain hurts.  Loss hurts.  Sickness hurts.  Death (the concept of the unwilling separation from life) hurts.  Depression hurts.  Poverty hurts.  Starvation hurts.  War hurts.  To hurt, therefore, is usually considered bad.  Through our concept of duality, I think we have come to connect the good and the bad in such a way as to beleive that the good will, in the end, save us from the bad.

Every religion/belief system/ spiritual concept promises a way to end suffering, promises a path to ever lasting bliss which contains no pain, and therefore nothing which could cause pain.  The end of such a path would be a singularity, which (to many) could not exist within our dependence upon duality; so it would exist just out of our physical reach: heaven.

To a good many, the ego is a force which causes pain.  It promotes both separation and isolation, jealousy and suspicion, the need to control and the need to not submit.  Because it causes pain (and is not a totally separate individual from us), it is afforded a prominent seat at the good vs. bad table.

But, what if the ego is an extension of our energy beings?  What if we are responsible for a great deal of the pain we feel?  What if the constant movement of the energy of which we are constructed is responsible for sickness?  What if God is God no matter how much suffering we endure, no matter how much pain afficts us, no matter how separated we remain from each other?  What if we do not need to respond to pain to find religion?

I have in the past used an image to describe creation, life and death.  Consider a beam of light entering a prism (this is creation).  The light exiting the prism is broken down into its various (seemingly separate) frequencies which act and react according to their individual properties (this is life).  Now consider the several frequencies entering a reversed prism, and exiting as a single beam of light (this is death).

Whatever happens between the prisms (although still contained within consciousness) to a great extent is due to the interplay of energies, positives and negatives, cause and effect.  Whatever is before the first prism and after the second prism is within the singularity of God (or whatever one considers equivalent to God).

I think we all always have the connection to consciousness (image of the soul here), and the ability to realize within consciousness.  But it takes a shift in our usual duality infused thought process to do so.  I do not consider the physical to be an illusion, or a bad dream of some diabolical sort.  Energy is real.  Consciousness is real (and maybe just a bit joyous?).  God is real.  Realization is understanding this.

Well, thats pretty much what I have so far.  There is still a great deal of room for either expansion and/or extrapolation.  Your thoughts?

Blessings and Peace. 

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Well, dude, I think you should just go full out bhakti and go for the gusto, and forget about trying to make intellectual models when you are unwilling to give up your initial devotional premises.

You're catching yourself up in a verbal limbo in which we endlessly argue about numbers of angels on heads of pins.

Now, if you want to do that as art or poetry, that's arguably a noble enterprise, and can be pretty as hell at the same time.

So, I can look at what you are saying as art, and see the references, and note the forms and the images, and think, “Ahhh yes, I see what he's trying to say with this piece.”.

But as soon as you start presenting it to me as “model”, as a kind of map or picture of our shared reality, I can't help but see that you are unwilling to allow certain presuppostions to be questioned. You place ideas like “god is real” in a special class (without even defining what the statement is supposed to mean, I might add). And we get stuck in an infinite loop.

With bhakti, it doesn't matter wether or not 'god is real'. The devotion is real, and the results of the devotion are also real.

And the art can be awful pretty. With none of that pesky verbal logic or data to get in the way.

But, I know I know, you can't help it, nor could all those verbalising christian mystics before you. The brain wants what it wants.

Impasse.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Bill:

Thanks for your comments; gratly appreciated.  Some short comments tonight after a very long day of arguing with Murphy's law only at the bitter end to have to grudgiling acceed to its validity?  Did I mention this is a work in progress?  I grew up as a fairly devout Protestant, and calmly followed the party line until almost accidentally stumblig accross a few subtle questions for which I (and a dearth of deacons, elders and ministers could not provide sufficient answer to outside of “you just have to have faith, son”.  From here I went the usual way of agnosicism, brief athiems,and then delvings into Hinduism, Buddaism, Taoism and, finally, through my wife's Native American heritage, into Native American spirituality; which really gave me a basis to bring all the other isms together and separate the pieces and parts.  I have found similarities within the isms which lean towards common originations.  As a result, yes, I still do have “presuppositions” that I am not ready to chuck entierly.

I love Taoism, but still feel God exists in some format; which right now is the Consciousness of God I babble about a good deal.  In the usual Protestant belief system, God is all seeing, all knowing, infallable and watches us each one like a spinster Aunt keeping tabs on innocents entering puberty completely unaware of what is going to happen to them.

The God of the Prisms, to me, is the instegator of creation and the mechanic in the pit of evolution.  In this image, we are a great deal more responsible for our actions and reactions.  God can be reached through the Consciousness, but we have to be able to do the reaching out through the consciousness in order to initiate the contact.  In this version, earthquakes and typhoons are not somehow the vaugue will of God (aside from having created the physicality of the earth, thereby making it possible for the tectonic plates to wander and bump against each other.  God is not saying, I think things are not going so well spiritually over there, so I think I will shake things up a bit and start them moving back into the fold.  The planet God created is evolving according to the physical makeup and properties it has in the tool box.  If we are to go back closer to God as a result of these actions, then the propensity of the direction of faith comes from us,

If someone wants to argue about the numbers of Angels or the sizes of the heads of pins, then that is the point at which they find themselves.  I am trying to simplify past such things to just get to the essential basics.  One cannot criticize other people because of the manner they coose to believe whatever religion or belief system they are involved it.  We are all moving through this evolution of spiritualism at different rates and different at different places.  Thats what evolution does.

Yeah, sometimes I use some artsy-crafty language in describing my thoughts.  And so?  Thats the way I think, thats the way I express my thoughts.  Deal with it.  I find it more to the point to use some lyrical forms to express ideas rather than trying to create yet another level based hierarchy to just shuffle things around on.  Who really needs another one of those?

Blessings and Peace. 

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Dennis >>> I love Taoism, but still feel God exists in some format

The brain wants what it wants. Not much to be done about the brain's desires.

Me, I freekin LOVE bhakti. I spend way too much time there, I suppose.

There's those few problems with it, tho.

But the brain wants what it wants.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Bill:

The brain wants something physical, even if it is just a concept or an image, so it can translate from consciousness into the energy thought patterns it uses to understand.  I grew up in a Christian environment so a God was needed and, even when studying Native American Spiritualism, there is the Great Mystery to bring into focus.  Each God or Great Spirit or Great Mystery is the result of us pulling consciousness through the physical perceptions and limitations of our brains in an effort to understand and explain our own interpretations.  In Taoism, there is only the Tao, yet the great need is there for us to interpret pieces and parts of it into intelligence congruent with our existance.  I think we can come closer through the mind which, to me, is less physical, less dominated by the energy thought processes.  Just a thought.

Blessings and Peace.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Dennis >>> I think we can come closer through the mind which, to me, is less physical, less dominated by the energy thought processes.

Yes, jnana yoga. And a lot of people think that.

It's funny, I consider myself a quite rigorous intellectual - and I've done my share of jnana. But nowadays, I see too many of it's failure points.

In any case, I figured, better to give you my real reactions to your presentation that the arguably more polite non-reaction - but I often make that same political error, one of my personality traits. Heck for all I know it's some mild form of aspergers. Except that I'm fully aware of conventional proprieties, I just happen to think they are a disservice.

—

Great Mystery - now that's a wonderful metaphor.

I bet that you and I would have a quite different sense of what things are greatly mysterious.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

I think it is a mistake to equate “pain vs. pleasure” with “good vs. bad”. Certainly, something “bad” can usually be found in pleasure and something of the “good” found in pain depending on one's point of view regarding both. In addition, the “pain vs. pleasure” duality is rather an illusion because there is always something of one in the other. On examination, one finds that “pain” and “pleasure”, with the right view, are really the same thing - vital information from our outside world to the inside self. These are not polar opposites but rather kin to one another with apathy being the only opposite to every sensation, every emotion. One feels, or one does not. That is the nature of a living organism. As for what one does with the sensations and emotions, that is a matter of self, of personal value. A healthy life is one passionate and in balance neither overly celebrating pleasure nor overly denigrating pain … but always in a struggle against apathy, i.e., a constant state of choosing to live or not to live. As you might guess, although there is much to be learned in Buddhism, Taoism, and so on, I personally reject the Buddha's conclusions regarding suffering and aiding all life to overcome it. Personal suffering is to be valued and celebrated to the same degree and for the same reasons we value and celebrate happiness - the lessons both can teach us toward the goal of balanced living serenity through all of our days.

Apathy is only barely living and therefore has little to nothing to teach us. Only when and if we return to a passionate life that values equally its successes and failures, its agonies and ecstasies, its pains and pleasures do we develop and evolve fully as human beings. To celebrate successes, ecstasies and pleasures above failure, agony and pains is a life imbalanced and missing many of the lessons to be learned from them. Such a person is only “half” a human being and will only ever BE a partial life until they learn to value all of their experiences regardless of their specific qualities.

The only wasted and regrettable life, the only wasted and regrettable moment is the apathetic one. Nothing is learned, no evolution occurs. It is, in fact, devolution.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Naumadd >>> I think it is a mistake to equate “pain vs. pleasure” with “good vs. bad”

Altho, biologically, (separate from human verbal and material culture) pleasure/pain are pretty reliably absolute signals.

We feel pain when the rock starts to crush the fingers so we jump away.

We feel pleasure during intercourse, so we perform intercourse, and reproduction occurs.

We find the smell of feces unpleasant, so we avoid feces, and avoid risky bacterial transmission.

We find the smells of palatable foods pleasant, and eat them, and thus survive.

To perform more intercourse and to leap away from pinching rocks (or the painful fisticuffs of competitor animals).

And life thusly evolves.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

I was, of course, speaking of emotional pleasure and pain which is a far more complex and integrated experience than merely stimulus and response.

Certainly, physical stimulus is an absolute and the physical sensation the stimulus causes is an absolute. One's reaction or response to that stimulus will be an absolute when and if you react or respond, however, one's reaction isn't absolute until it has in fact occurred. The very existence of apathy in human behavior attests to the fact a reaction or response to many sorts of stimulus isn't guaranteed and neither is the specific nature of that reaction or response. There is a great deal of stimulus in our daily lives which, from a human point of view, have the nature of being pleasurable or painful and yet we quickly acquire the ability to almost entirely tune it out of our awareness lest we be literally driven mad by overstimulation. Both awareness of much stimulus and our reaction or response to it seems to be demonstrably a matter of choice. If this were not so, apathy could not exist. Without this choice in reaction or response in many cases, the absolutes of stimulus and sensation would always be accompanied by an absolutely predictable reaction or response. That an individual can deliberately ignore the pains of hunger and starve themselves literally to death, or that an individual can gorge themselves consistently without preexisting pains of hunger are testament to the power of personal will to choose how one reacts or responds to stimulus. Human beings seem especially adept at deliberately and frequently ignoring or ending pleasurable sensations.

Also, one can find many accounts where what is pleasurable to one is quite painful to another, what is tasty to one is quite unpalatable to another. There happen to be many individuals who find intentionally inflicted pain pleasurable, who are in fact attracted to the smell of feces, and there many pleasurable smells that will lead one to ingest a dangerously toxic substance. One can conceivably learn to view a current pain as a pleasure or a current pleasure as a pain depending on one's will and patience to do so. One can also learn to tune a previously pleasurable or painful stimulus in most if not all instance entirely out of one's awareness thus putting to an end any potential reaction or response.

As I said before, “pleasure” does not absolutely translate to the “good” nor does “pain” absolutely equate to the “bad”. One's estimation of “good” and “bad” is dependent on one's individual values. Certainly, to those who wish to go on living, an overdose of sleeping pills is the “bad”, but that value judgment isn't guaranteed by all individuals.

None of this is to say there are no “absolutes”. On the contrary, there are absolutes all around us and within us. Absolutes are the stuff of everything. What this is to say is “pleasure” and “pain”, “good” and “bad” are individual estimations, NOT universal absolutes. Again, “pleasure” does not necessarily equate to “good” nor “pain” to “bad”. Pleasure contains an element of pain just as pain contains an element of pleasure and, in any event, each individual determines for themselves whether the sensations they feel are pleasurable or painful, at least to a point. Good and bad certainly depend on specific context and individual values.

As for fisticuffs, as you may be aware, there are some who deliberately put themselves in the path of another fist for a paycheck - it's called boxing.

Go figure.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Hmmmm, dumb old me, I'm not really sure I'm understanding how you want all this to be understood and applied.

Re: Continuation, Immortality or God

Naumadd:

Everything you are talking about, no matter the label or what heading it fall under at which point or time, is duality.  Your statements and observations are valid, but they go terribly wanting if there is not an opposite to keep them on the shelf.  See if you can forget about them, loose the connection, gather each one in your thoughts as if you did not already know what it was and where it belonged.  We do not need to stand good beside pain in order to be able to define good.  Simplify.

Blessings and Peace.