What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

I was standing in the sun this morning before I went to work, it's winter here but it must've been about 22 degrees C.  I could feel the warmth on my skin and all was very blissful, and then my mind entered and I was thinking, is it vitamin D or A, my chain of thought was broken.

I had been thinking a little bit about the question What Is Enlightenment?  I wasn't in a hurry to answer but eventually, something emerged, and I will try to package in a way that makes sense, so please bear with me.

The question itself could be a little bit of an issue.  I remember Krishnamurthi once saying, Can we ever ask the right question? NOTE: I am not a Krishnamurthi clone either.  

What is Enlightenment?  As soon as we say “IS” it implies that such a thing exists. We have read oodles of books o the Spirit, some very profound and others that are best suited for the fireplace on a cold winters night.   They all seem to have an opinion about Enlightenment, Freedom,Truth or the God thing.  Well I'd like start fresh and challenge the lot, not for the sake of an argument but because I am reasonably clear that there is a serious issue with the question.  

So I see a problem a big one What IS Enlightenment?  As soon as we say IS, it is saying there is something there and the next logical step is to go and find; and what is the thing we are seeking to obtain or achieve and that is Enlightenment, that's a no-brainer really.  The issue for me is, at the very beginning of the quest we are beaten, we are seeking, the sought being Enlightenment and us being the one who wants it, the needy, the lacking, the one that is minus the thing we seek.  

Let's go a little further with this.  I'll throw this in because I think it is relevant 'Any movement in any direction is a movement away from ourself', please read that line again and think on it for a moment.

The very question 'What is Enlightenment?'  Implies lack and when we look at it even harder, it's easy to see the separation; we are sepearated from Enlightenment.  I need to challenge that, not for the forum or an argument but because it is misconception. Underlying us, is the very thing that is sought, the very experience which we are seeking is the very thing that is at our core.  If we move towards solving the question, we are defeated because there is no need to take the journey, because we are moving away, out of God space, trying to solve a question which has come from thought.  The mind is wanting to know, the mind asks a question, it creates its own self imposed perameters and says ' Hey Answer this', it's really saying, look I am great, I have the ability to understand what is outside the framework of thought, but I shall pretend to be wise, I shall because I'm pretty shifty, proud and haughty, I can pour the ocean, the whole of it into my little bucket.

So where am I now?  Ok , here it is.  The question just doesn't do it for me, the question is a problem to itself and try as you might, you'll be on the path of Endles Becoming, on the quest like the deer chasing the musk, always seeking the elusive Beloved and moving away from yourself

There is nohere to go and nothing to do.  ( And that's what people find so difficult)

Peace

Tony

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

In my opinion, the question is wrong.
After all, I think that enlightenment, if it even exists, isn't attainable whilst we are in our bodies, as our bodies are our gateway to the reality, but also confine us as animals. I know no other process but death to get rid of ones body, losing our connection to the reality. Rendering enlightenment useless.
So my question is, and has been for years with subsequent answers to it.
What is the strive to enlightenment?

In my opinion it is simple.
First, we have a choice: The first assumption we need to make how the world works. It has been proven by Gödel that any set of axiom's (assumptions) will contradict itself. But without assumptions, we cannot live.
You have for instance: There is one definite truth, that we are unable to fully see.
Or: something that has proven to be truth once will be so in the future and everywhere.
Or: What I see with my senses is what is my truth.

Each of these have some easy immediate contradictions that will counteract them. You can think of them for yourself, or I can give them to you, but that wouldn't be much of a challenge .

The important thing is choice, and more important is that these three for instance contradict one another. More mind boggling is that all three represent a Quantum theory that accurately predicts the world.

Concluding that whatever reality we might find, it is independent of this first Prime-assumption.

And now, we can use this prime-assumption to endeavour in the exploration of the world around us, and the understanding of ourselves and actions and emotions. to learn about humans in general. And to try and unravel just what the reality means. For me, doing that every day, trying to improve yourself. With reflection outward (you cannot do it alone) is the strive to enlightenment.
And that is what I think.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

@Domus

thanks for the response, I'm going to come back a few times to this to try and get my head around your style.

(Your last paragrah) Is there a need to improve oneself? if so what is it that needs to be improved?

And what do you mean by trying to UNRAVEL Reality?

Thanks Tony

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Domus >>> After all, I think that enlightenment, if it even exists, isn't attainable whilst we are in our bodies, as our bodies are our gateway to the reality, but also confine us as animals.

Well Domus, I'm a little surprised to see you posit such a model.

As I've said before, there is an alternative explanation, which is that “enlightenment” is a very natural phenomenon, a biological and neurological condition, easily attainable with the right methods by a substantial percentage of humans.

It's not a religious or spiritual thing, it's brain and biology.

All the religious and spiritual accoutrements are embellishments and fictions that mostly serve as marketing and herd identification signifiers.

Religion and “enlightenment” are in most meaningful ways the exact opposite of each other. One could say, deadly enemies, tho perhaps that's a bit poetic.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

In your sense of brain an biology. Yes, I do think that it is possible. I just call it happiness and satisfaction. Or a brain and mind at ease, in harmony with its surroundings.

The further I look into the subject of 'reality' the more I am beginning to wonder what limitation are induced by my mind, and what limitations are induced by nature. Let's just say, whatever we pursue, we need our bodies.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Domus >>> Or a brain and mind at ease, in harmony with its surroundings.

Nope, it's something very different. Happiness and ease is just happiness and ease, much simpler to attain, requiring nothing like process needed for 'enlightenment'.

Happiness and ease often accompanies 'enlightenment', but the two aren't directly related to each other in any significant way.

Domus >>> I am beginning to wonder what limitation are induced by my mind, and what limitations are induced by nature. Let's just say, whatever we pursue, we need our bodies.

Yes, whatever we pursue, requires our bodies, so far as we can determine. Anything observed and experienced can only be observed and experienced by living humans with bodies.

I personally can't draw much of a distinction between “mind” and “nature” - so I'm wondering how you mean that distinction?

What's an example of a limitation imposed by mind that is not a limitation imposed by nature, and vice versa, what's an example of a limitation imposed by nature that is not a limitation imposed by mind? Perhaps with examples I can understand your distinction better.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Well, I for one reason deal with quantum mechanics. Now there are several distinctly different ways to describe the world or nature around us. You have 3 different theories, each based upon different sets of first axioms. These Axioms contradict one another.
It becomes wonder some, that is to what extend we observe, it is possible to describe and in the same sense understand nature in multiple distinctly different ways. You can argue that two must be false, that all must correct, or none of them. Either way, you cannot deny the fact that our reality is indifferent to what prime-assumption we make. (with prime-assumption I mean the axiom(s) we make as humans to understand or try to understand the world around us. Everyone has them. Most people don't know they have them that is also part of the problem)

This means, that it is possible for several different ways to describe the same reality in different ways. Now this might seem not of a problem, after all the reality is still the reality right?
Well, here comes the kicker, reality and literally the world we view, is based upon the way we view it. And it can be confirmed by experiment.

The limitation imposed by my mind is, that without such a prime assumption, I cannot think. Even though I know easily how to contradict the assumption. I cannot make any theory without making axioms. And how we view the world is basically just that, a theory, we try to test every day and impose upon others. Because of this assumption, it is suddenly evident that my mind is limited in its understandment and development. I cannot (not yet at least I hope) envelop a mindset that is based upon three contradictions. Even though it seems reality has no problem with it. (with reality, I really do mean, reality)

As for the other limitation, it is a more simple one. Take Math. Math is a science of the mind, and as the matter of fact, just that. It isn't real. Math is continues whereas the world isn't. Math we can travel infinetly towards zero, whereas in the world this is a set quantized moment. Nature, or reality limits us by its laws to do things that in our mind is possible, without which reality wouldn't exist.

Also perhaps a stronger example is that of consciousness.
In the Copenhagen interpretation (mind you, just one of the possile interpretations, and the only one with a consciousness) there is something like a consciousness, it makes the wave function go non linear, and is said to even be able of violating some appearent laws of nature. Such a consciousness is still limited by nature to an extend. It can only function in quantum regions. But one needs to question how far, and to what extend. I hope to write an article about it soon.

Hope this helps, otherwise I will find a few others.
It might not seem much of a problem. But I refuse to chose just one interpretation of reality, if they all work.
regards,

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Wonderful thoughts, thank you both for sharing! I arrived at the same point of view you have, Tony, and so many teachers actually do say the same thing. I think Adyashanti (.org) says it most clearly, sorry I can't point to a specific set of his words; he says it often in differing words. 

OTOH, something does shift at some point. But it's not what is usually described. It most definitely cannot come from striving nor is it attained. But something changes. I am still trying to put into words that are meaningful to me, exactly and precisely what that is.

Centria in her recent blog (and subsequent blogs) and its comments, wrestles with this too, as she goes through the shift.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Why The Endless Quest, Tony?

()

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

@Ian

Thanks for asking

The quest has no end. Because all movement is movement away from ones Self. And seeking has no end because the seeker is the sought

Tony

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

What makes you assume that people moving are actually going anywhere but in a circle? An imperfect circle at that
Enlightenment is an attempt to create a perfect circle where suffering and pain is not at the interval within the circle of existences.
That is  a very natural thing to seek, though full of challenges.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Zak:

It is basically saying “I am not it”

It is a very natural thing for the mind to seek, because the mind wants its solution, when in fact, the mind is the very problem

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

I would put it another way.
The problem is in the mind
　
“Blessing only descend on an empty house”

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Thanks Zak for creating some dialogue here, I find it healthy

I agree about the mind, but I'd go far as saying the problem IS the mind, not necessarily just IN.  The mind sets up questions but is limited by its natural parameters

As I see it, there are two paths, and only two.

One is Being and the other is Becoming.  

”Blessing only descend on an empty house - “I'll take that away and think about it.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Thanks Tony, I read it as without conclusion - time wise.
I am aware that, in reality, time does not exist.
Keep up the good work!
Love,
Ian.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Beliefs form the basis of our own personal or shared reality, but they have no effect on reality itself.  The following little story will illustrate this idea.  Imagine that a hermit has been living in a small room all his life.  That’s the only world he knows.  There are no windows in his little domicile, just a modest plank door that leads outside.   Many years ago, our little hermit found a book in his library.  The book suggested he go outside.  It said that the world outside was alive with color and beautiful beyond imagination.  But our little hermit didn’t dare.  He was simly too afraid.     Of course, since our little hermit had never seen this larger reality, it wasn’t real to him.  His only reality was within the walls of his little house.  It was familiar and known.  On the other hand, the promise of the larger world outside had to be taken on faith.      One day, however, our little hermit woke up feeling frisky and decided to test what the little book suggested.  This, of course, took courage.  Our little man didn’t KNOW what he would find.  Perhaps he’d be attacked or disappear into nothingness.  He just didn’t know.  But what the heck, he thought; I’m getting bored within these walls.  What have I got to lose?     Reaching slowly towards the door, he unlatched the rusty iron bolt and threw it open wide.  There, to his amazement, were brand new sights and sounds. They filled his eyes and ears …and tantalized every fiber of his being.  Gorgeous! Now, having stepped outside, several new realities emerged for Mr. Hermit.  First and foremost, he no longer had to take the world outside on faith; it was real.  He’d stepped into it.   Second, he realized that the world outside hadn’t depended on his belief or lack thereof.  It was real and had been all along.  On the other hand, he realized he would never experience his little domicile the same again; it was no more.  Sure, he could go inside, close the door and pretend nothing else existed, but the room would never really be the same again.  The memory of what he’d seen and experienced would always enter with him.  His new knowing shattered the old paradigm.   This is how it is when we step into reality.  The old simply ceases to be as it was.  

   

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

@Bob Bloom

That's a great story.

I guess for me, it wasn't until I gave up seeking, gave up all opinions on what God was, gave up moving away from myself and just totally abandoned the lot, is when I had a quantum shift.  It is the removal of linear time.

And although many are saying be here now, I find be there now much more powerful.


All paths are truth, there is not one truth, for every living entity that shall ever be, there will be a different truth.

My reason for posting is lto say “hey, wait a minute, you're looking for something that might just be projection of your own thinking based on second hand knowledge”

I am not interested in second hand knowledge, beliefs are meaningless to me, it has to be my experience to be real, then dissected and validated. So if I write on ET's Godmen, out of the body experience, non-dualism, the audible life stream, or any other phenomena, it will always be what I have come to know first hand or someone very dear to me has gone through.  

I do like a number of great Teaachers such as Ramana, Nisagadatta and Kirpal Singh and have used their tools and similar ones at various points of my life.  But in the end, I will say unashamedly that I AM GOD…. and that can mean something different to everyone.  But I won't beat around the bush. 

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

“I guess for me, it wasn't until I gave up seeking, gave up all opinions on what God was, gave up moving away from myself and just totally abandoned the lot, is when I had a quantum shift.  It is the removal of linear time.”

Amen Brother.  I move into the gap by letting go of the idea that I know anything.

Re: What is Enlightenment? The Endless Quest

Great parable indeed. But the idea of giving up seeking is not the problem. The fact that one gets more insight after they get over the inner obsession of
“ seeking” is a problem of psychology, or the self’s idea of itself.
Ironically, for some of us, when “seeking” goes away we attained somewhat of what we sought because we had an inner self hatred to begin with, a psychological fragility that has to do with self esteem.
“How dare a low dog like me get something directly”
The parable about the hermit is great as far as it goes, but on another level, the idea that the Hermit found it useful to stay inside his abode in the first place illustrates that he may has other problems inside himself that are veils to truth that he may have to confront.
There are seven levels of being that have to be balanced before we become ready for reality.