Gaia: What Is Enlightenment? - The Enlightenment Cafe - LETS GET REAL

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://roberth.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:27:27 GMT

Dear Everyone,

Following the recommendation of a few of you who posted in response to Mike’s post yesterday, I’d like to suggest closing this thread. For one, it’s simply gotten too long. I think (and I hope I don’t force your hand here, Brian :) ) Zaadz is working on programming to limit the length of threads for exactly this reason and I think we’ll all be thankful when that programming work is implemented.

The second reason to close this post is that the arguments don’t appear to be approaching any resolution. Both perspectives have been stated clearly and repeatedly (We get it, already! :-) ) and now most people can discern for themselves. Don’t get me wrong, the dynamics of the student-teacher relationship, and questions of purity and spiritual authority are of tremendous importance. That is precisely why they have been explored in great detail by the magazine over the last 10 years (for example, start delving into this back issue: What Is Ego?). But that inquiry is being drowned out by another agenda, as well as by the sheer volume of posts, so, again, we are shutting it down.

It is possible to continue posting here until the programming work is done. So to make it seem like that’s already happened, we’re just going to delete (tres gauche!) any further posts. And obviously it would be great for everyone to contribute to the other threads on this pod.

Thanks to everyone,
Robert

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://krodhakali.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:56:04 GMT

Hi Mike,

Sorry to do this again--one more and I'm done--could you find me a quote anywhere from What Enlightenment??! or any of the books critical of Andrew where Don Beck was characterized as a "duped fool and abuser"? or where Andrew's students were characterized as "brainwashed zombies"? I never saw that. Just trying to "keep it real." Thanks.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://krodhakali.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:49:01 GMT

Mike said,

The other thing is with respect to the issue of forcing students to sleep with prostitutes. . ..(by the way, there was only one individual not many) etc.

Mike, your version of that story, although it confirms Andrew sent a student to prostitutes, is very different than the one I've seen elsewhere. I wonder how accurate it is. The other version is supposed to be directly sourced. Is yours?

Could you tell me your source for your version? Was it an eyewitness or participant in the event? Were you there for any part of the events?

It's really karmically bad to misrepresent facts about others so I hope you are being very careful about this. And things have a way of being disseminated endlessly on the Internet--creating endless bad karma if they are false! So I hope you'll let us know where and from who you got your version and any other indication you have that it is really reliable.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://oosta.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:30:03 GMT

However I may feel about Andrew's methods and the directions his teachings are intended towards, I cannot fault his statement concerning the need to stay true to your vision. It is common for spiritual teachers of any belief to stress that their particular belief is the true belief and that everyone else is half a bubble off, and to try to bend the image of God around their beliefs. I feel there are so many beliefs because God is so immense that no one of us could ever hope to understand the complete essence of God, so we must learn it a belief at a time. It is a great kindness of God to provide for us so many beliefs, each one a pane in the window of the mansion, each one a symbol in the algorithm.

Andrew has things to teach, as well as to learn. I cannot continue on my path by saying Andrew should not continue on his. I really hope his students are learning what they need to learn, and that their futures are based upon that.

It is great to see Mike joining in, and to hear his comments. I agree with those who feel we need to have a change of direction in this thread. Someone made the suggestion a while back that we begin to discuss the guru/student relationship in some detail. I think that would be an excellent direction to go, especially if Mike and Terri and Will and others from Andrews circle could join in. Open communication on common topics is essential in learning about each other. We may never agree on many things, but we can understand.

We each have made decisions about Andrew based upon what we have learned here. I find it distressing that people have been treated harshly in Andrews care, regardless of his intent. I cannot change what has happened, but to cut off dialog because of it will resolve nothing going forward. I am not out to turn anyone away from Andrew nor to evangelize anyone towards my perspective. I just wish to understand.

As Micheal expressed so well, we are changing right this moment as we are changing. I feel we should continue this thread, and see where those changes lead us all.

Thanks,

Dennis

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://krodhakali.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:13:52 GMT

Chandra wrote:

i left because i cannot with dance with Satan.

Thank Beelzebub you're back, C-Man!
Do you know how to rhumba?

But seriously, do you know how to say "demonize"?
Demonizing people who disagree with you is neither helpful nor healthy.
In fact, the way Andrew Cohen does that with all who disagree with him (or even just leave him), is one of the things that makes it doubtful he can be of real help to this world.

For a recent discussion of this, check out former WIE editor Simeon Alev's new article on What Enlightenment??!

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://krodhakali.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:59:47 GMT

Simeon Alev's powerful article on What Enlightenment??! now makes 3 former WIE editors who have come out with strong public criticism of Andrew Cohen.

That magazine must be doing something right!

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://createcommunity.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:57:35 GMT

Thanks Scott,
These are the highlights, its from Simeon Alev;
Andrew describes certain former students now publicly critical of his methods as having "turned on him," but the truth is that he had turned on them long before they ever responded in kind. During my years in his community it was common practice for Andrew to publicly ridicule and vilify students who left, and to encourage others to do the same. There was no possibility of this practice, or the remarks engendered by it, being misinterpreted or "taken out of context." The message was clear, as well as the mean-spiritedness and vindictiveness behind it, which continues to manifest in Andrew's present post and will likely animate his future "counteroffensives." Whatever else Andrew Cohen may be, in this respect he is most definitely not a mensch. He has never personally addressed his own habit of vilification and ridicule, much less the many abuses of power catalogued by his critics, who experienced and/or witnessed them first-hand and either understood what they were seeing or figured it out soon enough-despite constant pressure from Andrew himself to give his motivations the benefit of the doubt.

The main problem with Andrew's community is his investment in his perception of himself as a flawless exemplar of his teaching. This is a problem because Andrew is far from flawless, and his actions (ironically) will probably never reflect the genuine nobility of his realization due to his incapacity to see himself and his own baser motivations clearly. None of Andrew's former followers would have hailed him as a "21st-century Buddha" etc. had they not been encouraged to do so by his own overly generous estimation of himself, and they cannot be faulted for changing their minds even after an extended period of devotion to someone who for a time seemed to them worthy of it. Andrew's lack of gratitude toward these people, who labored long and selflessly for the advancement of "his" cause and "his" organization ("his" magazine and "his" jazz fusion band etc.), is egregiously autocratic and narcissistic. I know personally several of the people described by Andrew as having "failed miserably" as spiritual practitioners; in addition to being insulting, this characterization of them is both a myopic and self-serving misperception and a public misrepresentation designed to invalidate legitimate grievances. Their lack of "success" is not difficult to understand in a community where self-induced doubtlessness was often a survival strategy and success was so closely correlated with fear-driven conformity. (If this has since changed, I'm glad to hear it but have my doubts.)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:18:35 GMT

There once was a woman that clean houses for a living and she was very good at cleaning houses she cleaned houses 7 days a week for many years. This woman took sick and she had to take time off of cleaning houses, while sitting in her own house she could see that it was so dirty that see could hardly sit and look at it. She heard a small voice say it is your dirty house that has made you sick and weak, she got up and started cleaning her house, it was just a few min. and she notice that she was feeling better than she had in years. This lady felt so good cleaning her house that she decided to only clean other people's houses for 3 days a week where she could have 4 days to keep her own house clean as far as I know she has never been sick again. Someone may even know this woman, if so tell her, Don loves her.

Your Friend, Don

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://my-head.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:17:12 GMT

I believe AC DC was once, and may well still be, a pop group With all this recent talk of AC and past talk of DB & KW - shall "christen" this LETS GET REAL thread AC DB KW I have asked, been vetted, and now had posted my comment - What changes when change changes ? - but as yet have not had a response. But to be fair I am writing this on my soul-mate's iMAC and have not looked at my own mail since yesterday. In the context of global society - as indeed AC has referred to - albeit NOT exclusively - its the ever increasing rate at which change changes - which changes when change changes - and again AC has said that the ramifications of change - which most do NOT even acknowledge let alone accept - as suchy that NOBODY can predict what the world will be like in 50 years time. IF - such a little word - but one which again AC has used to place a conditional element into the perspective of his espoused evolutionary enlightenment - ONE has to establish authentic SELF and assume responsibility of purpose to take on the WHOLE process of qualitative transformation of the world - and as AC has said " in comparison even dying seems quite acceptable ! " - before ONE can even consider the 5 tenets which constitute THE PATH ...... and I GENUINELY believe that ALL that AC says in this respect is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH - I would venture to suggest that in an ever increasingly changing world - that the MECHANISM which AC has established is quickly becoming unfit for purpose - and therefore in particular regard to AC - What changes when change changes ? - must be AC himself - which is what his long term friend in London told us recently is what AC has done all his life. As I have said elsewhere - Don't KILL the messenger - so let us welcome him with open arms - in polite but autocratic manner - to join us @ ZAADZ in the establishment of a completely new MECHANISM ( Hail to Brian ) - fit for the zaadzsters of today and built on a LEGO building block basis - capable of coping with the 100s of thousands and millions of others to follow - ( including Apple Macintosh users ! ) GO with the FLOW as they say or as ZhuangZi so appropriately said - FLOW with whatever may happen and let your MIND be free: stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing - This IS - THE ULTIMATE

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://truthquest.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 07:21:16 GMT

I noticed a new post at the ex-student blog responding to Andrew Cohen's "declaration". it's from a former editor of the WIE mag., and I think it's worth reading. He sums the situation up pretty well.
sincerely,
Scott

PS -- Chandra, the nurse called. It's time for your medication.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://chandrakanth.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 04:25:53 GMT

Whitewave, i left because i cannot dance with Satan. You dance with them, but i can't! You people screwed all those who use the humble language in the history enlightenment. That is why all the Holy Scripture informed everybody that the last face of God itself is ANGER, the Anger of the Lord. Go and check the Bible once more and if you don't like “The Anger of Truth or Lord” throw the Bible into dustbin and spit on Jesus and show the honesty of the Satan. You may love to use “Pray and fool” like dirty groups of Anti-Christ, but I can't do it. I am a social fighter and living with cause. Jesus is also a social fighter, so worshiping him and not fighting for social justice is a cunning behavior pattern of Satan. M. K. Gandhi named such enlightened deserters as Himalayan Blunderers. He always used to meet those who fight for social justice, not to Himalayan Blunderers. Gandhi never considered the enlightenment as the criteria to meet somebody. His non-violence is not emerged from deserter’s character. His lovers used give chest to the British bullets with enlightened smile. Gandhi’s non-violence loves the great battle Kurukshetra and Gandhi is a person who sent members of Indian National Congress to British Army to fight against Hitler. Whitewave, I am not only interested in social justice, but will give new world to the coming generations, but not to cunning dual people who use the dual language and not fighting like Christ. I am only concerned about the children, not about the Satan or Satan's character. I have witnessed so many inwardly cunning people who always use polishing language and talking like Philosophers of Truth. You just mind your business, a business of lust and stop advising like a Philosopher of Truth.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://chandrakanth.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 03:32:16 GMT

i left because i cannot with dance with Satan. You dance with them, but i can't! You people sewed all those who use the humble language. That is why all the Holy Scripture warned everybody that the last face of God itself is ANGER, the Anger of the Lord. Go and check the Bible and if you don't like" Anger of Truth or Lord" throw Bible into dustbin and spit on Jesus and show the honesty of the Satan. You may love to use "Pray and fool" like dirty Anti-Christ, but I can't do it. I am social fighter and living with cause. Jesus is also a social fighter and worshiping him and spiting on him are same.

I am not only interested and will give new world to the coming generations, but not to dual people who use the dual language. I am only concerned about children not about Satan's character. I have witnessed so many inwardly cunning who always and outwardly talking like Philosophers of Truth. You mind your business, Business of lust and stop advising like a Philosopher of Truth.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://createcommunity.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:07:35 GMT

Mike,
I was hoping that you or other current students of Andrews could refute the charges of abuse. I, like many here, find much to admire and respect in AC's work and words, but the accusations of his behaviors, with no refuting of that, just defenses, rationalizations has me concerned. If those things happened you you would be disgruntled too!

Psychologicial abuse is serious, and prospective students should be wary. And current students too, of course. The means aren't justified by the ends, and two wrongs don't make a right, as in the prostitution episode, which you did verify as true. (further up this thread)

I hope you all search your hearts for your own highest truth, and moral standing. I pray for those who came searching for light and found darkness, that they can regain their trust in the light and find their way. I pray for compassion and humility to lighten the work and ways and means of teaching in your community and that goodness prevails.

blessings,
Tamara

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://mikewombacher.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:50:55 GMT

No doubt about it. Best, Mike

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://michaelsharp.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:45:50 GMT

perhaps you are right. who knows. as i said at the start, people who "do good works" often become targets of people who don't want to see them do good works. but at the same time, people who do good works also make mistakes. Its always good to be able to admit your mistakes. humanizes you.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://mikewombacher.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:22:55 GMT

I think actually the opposite is true. In the past anyone who has dared side with Andrew in any of this has been belittled as a brain washed zombie by the bloggers who are out to destroy him. Even Don Beck, who has done more good in the world than the next hundred people put together and who knows more about human emergence, development, and integrity than most, has been categorized as a duped fool and abuser in those forums. The truth is, the same respect that so many people seem to think that former students of Andrew's have been denied is also denied to those who dare to stand by his side.

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://mikewombacher.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:12:30 GMT

I think I'll leave it just the way I said it; by suggesting that people actually go and find out for themselves instead of taking the distortions of a handful of disgruntled former students as gospel truth and putting upon Andrew the burden of "guilty until proven innocent." I also suggest that people read Andrew's blog, which has just gone up, and puts everything in context. And finally, I would suggest, as Don Beck has on one of the anti-Andrew blogs, that these individuals get on with their lives and contribute something positive to the world and leave the vitriol aside. Of course, no matter what anyone says on behalf of Andrew there will always be others for whom this will never be good enough and who then wish to villify that individual either directly or indirectly in one way or another. That's why the Roosevelt quote is so apt. There are always those who will always attack anyone that dares take a stand for anything. Years ago a European Advaita teacher who greatly respects Andrew warned him that by taking the absolute stand he has in relation to both the cultural status quo and the individual and collective ego he is going to be crucified. Prophetic words but unfortunately this is the price the pioneers must be willing to pay. To quote Wilber: "You always know the pioneers; they're the ones with the arrows in their back."

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://michaelsharp.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:06:59 GMT

its an interesting sort of "ganging up". blame the victims, belittle the critics, and assume the moral highground.

I can think of a lot of impolite adjectives for this but since I really resist that kind of negativity and don't find it helpful at all, all I'll say is

transparent.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Sat, 21 Oct 2006 00:59:54 GMT

            Hello, Gavin
                          Right On!
                            YOU TO MIKE
                                        Your Friend, Don

Re: LETS GET REAL

http://createcommunity.gaia.com — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 00:53:54 GMT

yeah, those ex-students were just a bunch of whiney losers who couldn't cut it. Who cares about them, anyway its getting boring.

Is this how you'll leave it?