Gaia: What Is Enlightenment? - The Enlightenment Cafe - Who's The Most Evolved?

Denmark Is The Happiest

http://worldwidehappiness.gaia.com — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 04:53:34 GMT

I read that Denmark won some happiest country award. I like the freedom of Holland too. Then there's the Kingdom of Bhutan, which talks a lot about happiness. But none of them are enlightened.

The evolutionary switch is from the competitive security mode to the cooperative happiness mode and no country has that yet. However, many countries are at the take off point of having good services etc.

Civilisations fall once they achieve power and security because they don't know about taking the next step, which is to spread happiness.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://monk.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Nov 2006 23:36:22 GMT

Would you like to try to establish some sort of theoretical backround for this? In other words, what sort of criteria would we look for in a country to judge how evolved it is? Or, what are the different lines of development that run through a country and culture? I'll try to begin:

1) personal freedoms
2) group freedoms
3) what sort of national objectives are there
a. for the country
   b.for particular relationships with other countries
   c. for the world
4) how well does the country help all of its citizens no matter where they are on the spiral
5) worker compensation
6) child rearing
  a. how much does the government value children
b. how much do parents, generally, value children (dfficult to answer in a diverse country)

Well, that's a start. I just wanted to try to get some sort of model for looking at things first.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:58:14 GMT

Hello Chandra,

I agree that the fight for justice and truth go beyond the distinctions of culture, nationality, and ethnicity. Mahatma Ghandi was an inspiring individual; so many non-violent, social activists serve as good examples in my own quests against injustice. But could you explain what non-separation, the declaration of non-nationalist affiliation and the fight for justice have to do with any examples of social evolution that we see around us today...?

Don't get me wrong ~ I think it's a wonderful ideal, Chandra. But quite frankly and relatively speaking, there aren't too many people (at least not in the U.S.) who are ready to adopt such a spirituality or spiritual way of thinking and behaving...

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://chandrakanth.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Oct 2006 13:05:43 GMT

Jo,

In a true spiritual zone there is no separate culture, but the inner thirst for the universal Truth which leads to a true culture of New Age. Nationalities are absolutely meaning in the spiritual zone. Once M. K. Gandhi declared in the battlefield of Truth as following; "I am not patriotic nor do I represent a separate culture, but the Truth. Some unjust is going on in my surrounding and as a spiritual person it is my first duty stand against the unjust. I am not doing it because I am Indian. Even when I was in South Africa I done the same because it is the duty of every spiritual person to raise voice against the unjust. This is a spiritual culture of Truth and Justice and I am following the same. So, please do not treat me as a patriotic because I am not!"

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Sun, 08 Oct 2006 11:34:24 GMT

Hello Yosama,

These are the kinds of distinctions I was looking for :) Evolution, as Gail pointed out, can happen in many arenas within ourselves and within societies. And while we may be at a particular level, say, politically, it doesn't automatically follow that we are at a similar level spiritually or culturally. We all have some growing up to do...

While I still maintain that I'm not really looking for maps, I don't view them, by themselves, as serving any other purpose than describing particular terrains. It's what we do with those maps that create realities descriptive of and pertinent to our developments.

Thanks for your very thoughtful response, Yosama.

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Sun, 08 Oct 2006 09:12:48 GMT

saying that is not meant to withhold anybody from grouping or from drawing necessary borders but to me it not only honestly describes the reality but also defines the groups exist. only the frequencies widely defer.

also to your saying that viewing societies as good examples can benefit all of us on some level, it is true that people in the third world like in Central Africa set examples for themselves such as North European administration and society to look up to , while at same time in other most prominent aspects of life, they are relatively much ahead - like in spiritual hearing and personal closeness if i may guess..

So this reality only invites that map which i said

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Sun, 08 Oct 2006 08:16:35 GMT

Hi Jo ,

your answer was good and it allows me to suggest a way to measure and draw alternative guidelines to groups ~ groups that are defined by responding to a key note, vibrating tunes and frequency.

This way groups are indeed gathered but unlike what we usually look for in familiar sociology these are momentary as they notice, resonate respond and act in harmonious relation about a certain note, a soul urge or a shared sense of responsibility if you like etc. I wonder how you like that ;)

visualizing will produce maps drawn by resonating individuals but not necessarily define them as groups unless defining in itself is a wave provoked by another key played. If this inconsistency of groups is found inconvenient, you are invited to compensate by a sense of balance found when one allows (or in favor;) of the visualization.

namaste
yosyama

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Sun, 08 Oct 2006 07:26:49 GMT

Hi Yosama,

Thanks for your honest response. I understand that this question/subject may not resonate with some or most. As for the subject title, "Who's The Most Evolved," I just figured it would catch somebody's attention :)

However, I don't view an objective inquiry into what makes one society more evolved than another as potentially ego- or ethnocentric. And if it turns out that way, at least we'll know where we stand as individual participants in our own personal evolutions.

I'm not necessarliy wanting to describe social evolution in terms of Spiral Dynamics; I just wanted perhaps a voyeuristic view into what makes an evolved society. But in answer to your observations and in SD terms:

The majority of those weighing in will probably not be rabidly nationalistic, Blue reactionists. I suspect there aren't too many Blues around these parts anyway. The fear of labeling is a (mean) Green penchant, and so that effectively eliminates them from such a discussion (except in protest of it, I suppose). So even an open, glaring invitation to participate in unconscious nationalism and extremist ideological debates may go largely unanswered. Which is fine by me.

Road maps and master plans are not what I'm looking for. I'm just looking for ends, not means to those ends; every society must work out their own development for themselves. I do still think though that viewing other societies as good examples can only benefit all of us on some level.

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://chandrakanth.gaia.com — Sat, 07 Oct 2006 16:11:10 GMT

Fredrik,

I received some important news from the intelligence connected with the forthcoming American martial law. It is more than the Senate declaration. Tomorrow i may post it directly in the HPM forum of WIE. Do you know about the American culture? They are frustrated within because of their too individualistic vision. My dear Fredrik, you are representing a new race and this upcoming race itself is representing the emerging culture of the New Age. I will send one contact to you. She is American and her age is only 22. She also represents the same culture that you represent. In fact, culture is the product the inner, not the outer. If you want more clarification, take one unselfish man of America, German, Japan, Russia and your area separately and do the simple survey. Any study on any subject is useless for nothing because there is some great art in nature. That is revelation. For example, when two selfish hearts meets it cannot become equal because it is the material consciousness and its selfish identity that meets. But when two or more unselfish hearts meets unity exists in the root itself. This occurs in a unique way because in every unselfish mind there is no identity, but the eternal cause. Of course, you need deep discussions at present, but also keep the heart in red alert. Shankaracharya says, "The mysteries of life are revealed one who keeps his mind vigilant all the time of life".

Chandra

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Sat, 07 Oct 2006 12:07:08 GMT

although KW and others have drawn new maps for spiritual evolution, and while the coloring of different levels make them more approachable; in essence, the need to map and the consequent question 'Who's The Most Evolved' belong somewhere between blue to green.

this in return invites such nationalist or ideological answers, but despite the apparent convenience, i don't see how and why the 'memes' are going to demonstrate in any given or convenient traditional social frames, sorry, it does-not resonant with me at all.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Fri, 06 Oct 2006 01:03:08 GMT

Kosmo and Frederik,

From what Frederik describes of Dutch culture, I can see why Beck feels that theirs may be the first to cross into Second Tier. I'm ecstatic that WIE will be delving into this subject.

I think it's important that we objectively (as possible) recognize evolution where it thrives without the fear of not being "politically correct" in discussing what makes these cultures so different from our own. Evolution and change go hand in hand, and if any of us desires even slightly to change the world, then there must be a willingness to describe the changes we want to see. Observing other, advancing cultures is much more helpful towards those ends rather than merely crossing our fingers...

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://openartist.gaia.com — Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:11:35 GMT

You’re in luck because in some future issues of WIE we’re going to be featuring some communities. This is a huge question and I agree with what some people said that you have to make clear in what sense you are talking about. Don Beck has often said that the Netherlands has the greatest potential of flipping into "yellow" or "turquoise"/integral consciousness. I have no clue though. Joel Garreau just came to Foxhollow to give a talk principally on the subject of his new(ish) book Radical Evolution (technology trends, futurism, different future scenarios). He responded to someone who asked whether he thought China would become the superpower that people are predicting. He responded by saying that China has some really serious demographic problems (lots of old people) that are likely to affect it in ways we arent' able to project yet. It just made me realize how little I really understand about what's going on around the world and in other countries. My own superficial knowledge of other countries and cultures really isn't enough to base any bold claims on. But for all that it's worth (eenie, meenie, minie, moe...) I hear The Federation of Damanhur is pretty cool. And to give a shout out to my own homestead, (w00t!) Foxhollow is pretty extraordinary. It’s a 21st century sangha and teacher exploring the frontiers of reality. To my knowledge, there are only a few places around the world where that’s happening.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://openartist.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:05:05 GMT

Chandra you're going to have to explain that one...

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:02:27 GMT

How, I can think of 3 reasons: One people came into a country where they had rights, and if they hadn't had them already, could aquire them through the free-political attitude, within the span of their own generation. If they weren't happy, an agreement could be formed with the already present people. Until both were happy. In a peacefull manor. Second: Most people liked the Dutch culture already when they arived, and so no trouble inheriting it. Third: There is no discrimination, nobody has different rights then someone else. But we also acknowledge people are always individually different. One with little intelligence, will probably not get the high educated job he wants. But, when he works, and learns hard. He most certainly can. I most also say, that most if the immigrants, are not immigrants any more. They are either second or third generation Immigrants, who got their native-culture from their parents at home, but their own culture from the streets and people of holland.
Another reason: Our past. Holland formed itself for the first real time, during the eighty year war. In which Holland was such a rich trading nation, that it had its glory moments of art en development, in the middle of the war with world-power spain. Even in the very beginning of the republic, it was governend by tradesman and merchants. They all spoke many languages, and were not unaquaint with foreign cultures. Morever, thei'r 'free' rule, was not conducting any censureship. Thereby in the gold age, many works were printed in holland, because in their own country, this wasn't allowed. And painters and other cultural or 'heritics' from their own country came to holland, to conduct their profession freely. So, In a small place, their was all of the sudden, a center of trade for entire Europe. Once the canal to Antwerp was blocked with toll. Holland was al-mighty. At their peak, there was even a Dutchman at the English thrown. (this Ironically was also the cause, that the dutch lost their good position in trade and power of the seas. More on this on Wikipedia)
So holland always was, a multi-cultural country of traders, do note the following. The Dutch word 'Apartheid'. Because goods and money, wasn't the only thing the dutch traded in...
But beautifully, I never heard of any grunches about that these days.
But It is of course not always sunshine and honey, There are moments of political instability (all the time) think of 'Pim Fortuyn' and 'Theo van Gogh' (no, not that van Gogh)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://enlightennextgail.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:22:15 GMT

Hi Jo and All,
I am sorry to be responding late- you have to be quick with these discussions or you miss a whole new discovery! I think that we are talking about creating a new culture- a culture based on the kinds of deeply spiritual values that you were describing.And I am not so sure there is any existing society that reflects this. Let's take Holland as an example. And I guess this is a question for Frederick- do the freedoms that you see in the society translate into more authentically happy, socially generous and evolved human beings?
Gail

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Wed, 04 Oct 2006 06:42:19 GMT

Frederik said: It is vastely mulit-cultural and most if the immigrants, and refugees live there. But it is no ticking time bomb. Though there are some ghetto's. No wars are waged, no mice, killing mice. i'd say it is pretty peacefull. (though I know this is not the case for some people out there.

This is extremely, extremely impressive, Frederik! Especially the mult-cultural part. I wonder how it is that people of other cultures have not affected the respectful social balance in Holland...? Here, in Hawaii, natives of our island communities have noticed the opposite effect of immigration and transplantation in recent decades.

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 06:25:31 GMT

Randstad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randstad

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 06:23:34 GMT

(according to the definition given here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_area for metropolitan area, the 'Randstad' has over 10 million inhabitants)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 06:21:45 GMT

Many, many researcher have done that alike research aswell. It is sometimes a bit odd, how people research something already know, just to publish. Personally I think it is ridicoulous. Selftest: But 50 mice, put them, with plenty of food though, into a too small cage with two levels. In a week, all the mice that were too many, will be dead. Not due to starvation, but killed by their fellow mice. Behold, overpopulation starts war, instinctively. In holland there is, as for where I live, no competition of resources whatsoever. We have good infrastructure to cope with the large amounts of traffic and people. And the ever Duthc respect for other, holds the peace in every day life easily. (Though, because people respect other people's silence. You will notice, strangers do not talk to eachother in the train. Or in fact anywhere else aswell. Though most people like it, and will immediatly start a friendly conversation when asked something. They will almost never initiat a casual conversation during normal daily life, respect seemingly comes at a price... :S) Large communities? The 'Randstad' is so vast there is hardly any real nature left in between, well Ironically, there is a large portion of nature in the middle. But nothing besides that. The 'green heart' is completelly surrounded by the urban area's. Being one of the largest 'Agglomerations' Of Europe it holds 7,1 Million inhabitants. Including the biggest harbour in the Europe: Rotterdam. (which grows still grows, due to land reclaimation into the see). It is vastely mulit-cultural and most if the immigrants, and refugees live there. But it is no ticking time bomb. Though there are some ghetto's. No wars are waged, no mice, killing mice.
i'd say it is pretty peacefull. (though I know this is not the case for some people out there.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Wed, 04 Oct 2006 05:41:03 GMT

Hello Gail,

I'm glad for your definition of "evolution" because I have a similar focus. I am mostly interested in how we might inject more consciousness in the material world. Being a very visual person, I thought that a view of how other countries or societies are doing just that might be a good place to start. How to pull the individuals of the world up through the spiral, though, is a completely different matter...

I agree with what you've said of freedom. It is, I think, a much misunderstood concept. As is the case with so many paradoxes we recognize in our material realities, freedom cannot exist without responsibility. In a sense, then, freedom is earned only within the context of responsibility ~ if we cannot be responsible, we cannot be free.

From what Frederik describes, wouldn't it be wonderful if the world could evolve to the level of Holland?

~Jo~