Gaia: What Is Enlightenment? - The Enlightenment Cafe - Authentic Self and Big Mind

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://MtnHawk.gaia.com — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:31:37 GMT

Martin Gifford--
Thank you.   I'm glad you found some of my comments useful.

One of the most powerful spiritual teachings I've ever heard was Pema Chodron's "Everything is path."   At first I did not see how it was possible to positively use what no one wants in their lives, and everyone tries to avoid: fear, emotional pain, anger, terror, confusion, depression, rage, addiction, and other difficult forms of suffering.   But when I finally learned how to use suffering (instead of it using me) as a teacher and doorway to enlightenment, it was incredibly liberating.    When "everything is path" then there can no
longer be any internally-generated insurmountable problems or blocks to enlightenment.

It is impossible to suffer in the nondual state because that which suffers is no longer there.

I am revulsed and saddened by the many acts of destruction people constantly commit against themselves, each other, and the earth, especially since none of it is necessary.
But I can't change people.   Thinking one has control over others, or wanting to control others, is unhealthy codependent fantasy.   If people really want to change they have to do it themselves.   They can be helped, but no one can force them to change or do it for them.   However, I can change myself so that I live from reality and not illusion.

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://worldwidehappiness.gaia.com — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 03:24:34 GMT

Mtn Hawk, Great comments and I especially like, and agree with, the one on Thursday at 9:51.

However, I have one question… are you saying you do not experience confusion and suffering? Or have you met anyone that you think is beyond confusion and suffering? What happens when you see children starving to death and losing limbs in war etc?

Re: How to be the Inauthentic Self

http://rosh.gaia.com — Sat, 09 Dec 2006 07:09:24 GMT

you i think have hit on something very important here

i feel youre very close to something

youre just on the edge

what i see in your post
is someone evaluating or projecting the thots and feelings of others

they think less of me
because they dont consider me to have attained this authentic self thing

but consider
if you indeed have attained it
that is if you are indeed your own true self
then what would it matter even if others said not

and please note
they are not saying not
you are

but youre right on the edge

the whole point is you
not what they think

they could be wrong

i am only to say to myself
am i not my self

am i not truly the self that i truly am

the point is that you havent satisfied yourself of this

what others think or say is irrelevant

if they say you are then they may be wrong

if they say you arent then they may be wrong

are you going to decide evrything for the rest of your life
based on what others think and say
or will you look for yourself

and i realize this is exactly what you are on the edge of

you want to take personal responsibility for yourself
but you are asking for the permission of others to do so

i wont give you that permission because it would be false
only you can meaningfully give yourself that permission
but once you do you can no longer hold others accountable for you

much much love

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://createcommunity.gaia.com — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:33:44 GMT

Will,
You are limiting enlightenment to the experience of the non dual unmanifest ground of being. But by the very fact you are at the keyboard looking at the screen reading this post "(you) would have to be something that has, observes, discerns, labels, etc.,"

Just a reminder to you both, and what I thik Will is trying to say, (but making a duality out of it) is that the non-dual includes the relative, in space-time. You can't limit the non-dual ground of being because it includes All!

Just because you do not see the emptiness of the form, does not mean it is not true!

One of my favorite Tibetan Buddhist prayers ends, "may confusion itself dawn as primordial awareness".
It is possible. You gotta get tantric with it, making an oppositional duality of it, isn't in line with the spirit of what I think you are trying to say there Will :)

best wishes,

Tamara

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://Domus-ulixes.gaia.com — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:12:05 GMT

"What is the point of trying to mentally relate time, space, and form to enlightenment
when time, space, form, and the intellect are the limitations enlightenment goes beyond?" -- That is an assumption. Logistically and practicly seen, you can never prove anything that is not related to time or space. Because the concept can only exist in our heads. And is therefore unverifiable statements, with no argumentation. Personally, I think you serious underestimate the world, when you say time space and intellect are limited whatsoever.

I think a more important question is "What makes distinctions?" If one doesn't know what makes distinctions then how can one possibly know if those distinctions are true or false, real or unreal, constructive or destructive, etc.? -- True, since the basis of something is also dependant on the observer, and therefore part of the 'what

'" Therefore confusion......human societies?" -- Sure, enlightment still contains confusion and suffering, just never alone. Their opposites are either synchronically present, or follow in a short while.

I wouldn't call it new either. Far from. These thoughts are sometimes just as basic as stuff like science. We are not the only ones in the universe who attained it, and certainly will not be the last.

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://MtnHawk.gaia.com — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 07:51:41 GMT

"You are limiting enlightenment to the experience of the non dual unmanifest ground of being."

You are saying there is more than the "experience of the non dual unmanifest ground of being"?    What would that be?

"...you are at the keyboard looking at the screen reading this post"
"To live and act in time and space we have to make distinctions ..."

What is the point of trying to mentally relate time, space, and form to enlightenment
when time, space, form, and the intellect are the limitations enlightenment goes beyond?

"...the question is what are those distinctions based on?"

I think a more important question is "What makes distinctions?"   If one doesn't know what makes distinctions then how can one possibly know if those distinctions are true or false, real or unreal, constructive or destructive, etc.?

"Therefore "confusion and suffering" does not necessarily indicate unenlightenment."

I don't think confusion and suffering indicate enlightenment.    If they do, then why waste time with enlightenment, since confusion and suffering already abound in human societies?

"Incarnational non-dual Enlightenment IS, at this point, more demanding and complex..."

Enlightenment seems demanding and complex to the ego because the ego knows enlightenment means its death and it will do anything to avoid that.   Actually, there is nothing more simple than nonduality (enlightenment).

"...because, dare I say it, it is a NEW episode in the evolution of human consciousness."

I wouldn't say enlightenment is exactly new since it exists, and has existed, as potential within every human being.   Apparently at least a few people throughout human history have uncovered it.   But certainly enlightenment on a mass scale would be a new, and welcome, event.

Best wishes, also.........

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://will.gaia.com — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:36:53 GMT

Respectfully I disagree. You are limiting enlightenment to the experience of the non dual unmanifest ground of being. But by the very fact you are at the keyboard looking at the screen reading this post

“(you) would have to be something that has, observes, discerns, labels, etc.,”

To live and act in time and space we have to make distinctions . . . the question is what are those distinctions based on?

Therefore “confusion and suffering”

does not necessarily indicatate unenlightenment. Incarnational non-dual Enlightenment IS, at this point, more demanding and complex because, dare I say it, it is a NEW episode in the evolution of human consciousness.

All the best,

Will

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://MtnHawk.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 05:57:24 GMT

It's best not to use terms such as "Authentic Self", "Big Mind", etc.   Even though phrases like this might sound spiritually evolved they are counter-productive because they
immediately create an internal duality.   Something would have to be an "Authentic Self", "Big Mind", etc., and there would have to be something that has, observes, discerns, labels, etc., the "Authentic Self", "Big Mind", or whatever.   That is two things, which creates
internal separation and division, causing confusion and suffering and blocking enlightenment.

Enlightenment is "no thing", not "some thing".

How to be the Inauthentic Self

http://worldwidehappiness.gaia.com — Sun, 03 Dec 2006 04:37:14 GMT

Calling it the “Authentic Self” is so loaded. “Authentic Self” feels like an elitist term. It seems that everyone else is being inauthentic, which taps back into Andrew Cohen’s morality issue again. I instantly feel guilty thinking about not being one of the Authentic Ones. Gosh, I’m being inauthentic! I’m a disgusting loser. I should be ashamed of myself. Someone slap me quick.

But I’m where I’m at doing the best I know how to do given the information I have available. Is that being inauthentic? Am I being my inauthentic self? Isn’t that the same as being nothing at all? I’m being an illusion. I’m being vapour! I better hurry up and do something! And it better be the right thing, or else I’ll be billowing around in inauthentic vapourousness forever.

Then there’s The Whole to consider. Oh my God! How dare I wallow in the mist of inauthenticity when The Whole is going down the plughole! I should strap on the harness of Authenticity and vertically pull The Whole back out of the plughole before it’s too late.

Actually, I am in negative ego right now by feeling guilty! That’s inauthentic too. It’s just a big excuse for not doing what I know I should be doing. I should respond to the call inspite of all the odds and my own resistance to being the Authentic Self. Then I can be like those others that are clearly being the Authentic Self like…

Who? The usual suspect?

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://freedom-first.gaia.com — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 20:03:51 GMT

Yes, Will, awesomely simple description. I don't know about Big Mind either, but I do know the Ground of Being, and I wanted to respond to G about this -- the difference between these different parts of the self are, in my experience, discernible. (Though I have to say that this is developmental...it's only been over time, particularly in practicing meditation and having consistent experience of the Ground of Being, that I am able to distinguish Zero from Authentic Self.)
Authentic Self is all about action, and the Ground of Being is about Nothing. Andrew Cohen explains that the Authentic Self is the Self Absolute in manifestation. In fact, I just remembered this amazing short description he gives of this difference in a video he has on his website. There, he says:
God as Being and God as Becoming are two completely different or opposite manifestations of the same thing.

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:08:47 GMT

thank you Will for this comprehensive view on the matter, very bright indeed
namaste, yosyama

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://notthisnotthat.gaia.com — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:58:33 GMT

Excellent Will.

Both are simply different aspects of you. Where one starts and the other ends is really indiscernible. The wonder is you, the inffable you which can assume any voice it wants or needs.

G

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://will.gaia.com — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:26:50 GMT

Hi Allen,

That’s a good question. I am not that familiar with the Big Mind process but from listening to Genpo’s description this is my impression:

The terms Authentic Self and Big Mind are not referring to the same thing. From what I can tell Big Mind refers to the state of consciousness or pure awareness that one experiences when one stops identifying with the mind . . . in other words having no relationship to the arising of though and feeling. There is no actor and no doer. It is Emptiness and Zero, some describe it as the Ground of Being. This is a place where nothing ever happens . . . in fact nothing ever happened! This is also the experience of deep meditation. I get the impression that Big Mind is a technique for getting people to experience this.

The Authentic Self, as Andrew refers to it, is the part of ourselves that is passionate and engaged with change and evolution, and the creation of an entirely positive future . . . its is absolutely aligned to the creative impulse of the Big Bang that which set the whole universe in motion . . . it is experienced as a YES to life and is the profoundly positive part of ourselves. It is also the part of ourselves that has no interest in resting or in the petty fears and desires of the ego (the self contracted, self-centered self) . . . . It is interested in the Whole—our collective endeavor . . . the Universe Project!

These 2 descriptions are by no means mutually exclusive — one needs access to both. You cannot sustain access to the Authentic Self without being deeply grounded in Zero.

I hope this helps?

All the best,

Will

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://notthisnotthat.gaia.com — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:36:23 GMT

I have never heard him speak about that. Doesn't mean he hasn't but I never heard it

G

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://monk.gaia.com — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:03:50 GMT

Does Genpo Roshi talk about evolution? What sort of directionality is there in his teachings?

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://notthisnotthat.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:34 GMT

My understanding of Big Mind is not the introduction of theoretical voices, or even archetypes but your voices. So if you have an interest in evolution then simply quiet for the moment other voices and let that voice speak from you unopposed and unedited. Your own voices make the process in Big Mind as well as in Voice Dialog which is what inspired Roshi into Big Mind.

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://notthisnotthat.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:50:31 GMT

Hi Allen

Speaking as Big Mind IS the process and the fulfillment of it. It is very different doing a process to attain something and doing it as the attainment. When sitting sit as the Buddha not trying to become a Buddha. That is the essence of Genpo's teaching as is all Zen. (Forgive the presumptuousness) and that is the key to koan study. You are it. Practice from there.

Question: How old is the Buddha?

G

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://monk.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:43:46 GMT

Does Genpo speak of any voices that have a particular interest in evolution or development? I've often thought that some merging of the two systems might yield some interesting results.

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://allan.gaia.com — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:03:16 GMT

G,
Well thats sorta like saying just be Big Mind - as in the process doesn't matter or have any value.

I've never heard Genpo bring up Autnetic Self as part of the big mind session. leaving me to wonder if its one of the trasncendent voices he does call, under a different label, or if its yet another voice

As the AS is so imprtant in the enlightenNext model, Im just wondering if the BigMind process can be used to enable peoiple to find that self

Re: Authentic Self and Big Mind

http://notthisnotthat.gaia.com — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:01:15 GMT

Hi Allen

All you have to do is open your mouth and speak as the Authentic Self. Don't bother trying to discriminate between relative and absolute. They are all your voices. The point of the Big Mind process is to connect you with that which transecnds all voices yet has total access to them. Whatever you call it, its YOU!

So, Mr Authentic Self, speak.

G